Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

*Vong Krayt
*Sabers only

Kenobi.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Kenobi.

Krayt...

Vong Krayt failed to defeat one of the worst Skywalkers.

Kenobi defeated the second best Skywalker.

Do your math

Obi-Wan, he's just better.

Krayt blitzed 4 imperial knights, Kenobi had to drop a big hunk of metal on 4 magnaguards in ROTS. Do da maffs.

Originally posted by Trocity
Krayt blitzed 4 imperial knights, Kenobi had to drop a big hunk of metal on 4 magnaguards in ROTS. Do da maffs.

> One of the most resourceful Jedi ever
> Something wrong with going easy on 4 droids by dropping shit on them instead of exercising physically

You're sort of joking, but those elite magnaguards were fighting Shaak Ti almost evenly in OCW.

Originally posted by JKBart
> One of the most resourceful Jedi ever
> Something wrong with going easy on 4 droids by dropping shit on them instead of exercising physically

He didn't fight them like a man, he cheated.

He is a coward, imo.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Kenobi.

So this is krayt 100+ years after his loss to kenobi? Then krayt.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
So this is krayt 100+ years after his loss to kenobi? Then krayt. I dont agree with ur opinion

Originally posted by JKBart
I dont agree with ur opinion that's fair but I'd still give it to a guy who's incredibly elite in the force and has extra decades of potential lightsaber practice under his belt, as well as his impressive dismantling of 4 imperial knights.

Remember Vong Krayt had to go to stasis after a bout with Cade Skywalker, Cade that was far from his prime too. Krayt had to go freezing just because of that duel.

Now let's consider Kenobi is a better duelist than Cade, and by that point in time, he was quite the superior one.

Interesting thing to note is that if Krayt was so taxed in that duel that he needed to freezing after that duel, fighting with Kenobi will be even more taxing. Cade is an aggresive fighter; Obi-Wan is on the defensive, meaning it will force Krayt to launch more of an offense, and offense is definitely more tiring.

Good points but it's interesting to note that cade appears to be a saber prodigy himself. He fights off sith and storm troopers as a child, doesn't pick up a saber for 7-10 years, then picks one up and starts winning fights. Definitely a concern regarding krayt's health.

So is Vong Krayt to be interpreted as Krayt on his deathbed, or just Krayt in his Vong armor prior to nigh becoming a writhing mass of tentacles?

Originally posted by JKBart
I dont agree with ur opinion LOL @ someone still trying after this.

Edit: @Bart reply to my last pm f**

Prolly Krayt

Vong Krayt has no meaningful feats beyond beating up four imperial knights.

Vong Krayt likely falls to Kenobi, just as he did on Tatooine.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Kenobi.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vong Krayt has no meaningful feats beyond beating up four imperial knights.

Kenobi's most meaningful feat is beating his padawan whom he trained, who was an emotional wreck and decided to do a hail mary while giving higher ground. This is Krayt after another 100 years. J is the only one who's made any relevant argument against Krayt in terms of him exhausting himself when fighting Cade, although Cade was a prodigy himself.

That "padawan" slaughtered most of the Jedi Order, blitzed Cin Dralling and drove back Shaak Ti.

Stalemating him is certainly impressive

Originally posted by MythLord
That "padawan" slaughtered most of the Jedi Order, blitzed Cin Dralling and drove back Shaak Ti.

Stalemating him is certainly impressive

Most of the Jedi Order? You mean most of the younglings, not old enough for a PG-13 movie?

So the consensus is Vong Krayt = Hett in sabers?

No.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No.
Well everyone seems damn sure of a Kenobi win.

Apparently. XD

Kenobi won despite Hett having a terrain advantage, so yeah.

And while holding back, I believe. The moment Kenobi actually went all-out when he remembered Luke and won pretty handily.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Most of the Jedi Order? You mean most of the younglings, not old enough for a PG-13 movie?

There were dozens of Jedi Knights stationed at the Temple as well... and you completely ignored my points regarding Ti and Drallig.

I didn't completely ignore your points, I just didn't feel the need to address then because I thought beating 4 Imperial Knights was more impressive. But you had to add "most of the jedi order" in there which isn't remotely accurate. And it appears that the "few" knights that were at the Temple were mowed down by the Stormtroopers, not Anakin.

But again, Kenobi beating someone he trained and someone's style he knows isn't extremely impressive. The context of that fight certainly make the feat less impressive but I am in no way lowballing Kenobi. A fully trained Krayt with another 100+ years of experience should be enough to take this.

Anakin effortlessly curbing Drallig and another Jedi whilst hindered is well beyond Vong Krayt curbing the Knights. We're not factoring in the hindrance for Krayt here, since we're using Vong Krayt.

Proof Anakin was hindered during Knightfall?

For the final time, I'm referring to this:



And before you say it, yes, I know Palpatine's prediction in the last part of the quote was wrong.

Lmao, that's what you meant by hindered?

I'd see it being questionable if it was by itself, but given that we know exactly how he was hindered on Mustafar, I'd say this was him showing the first signs of his emotional divide that infamously obstructed his powers on Mustafar.

Ok great, so if that's how you define "hindered", then he was "hindered" during his fight with Obiwan, making Obiwan's win appear even less impressive.

Obi-Wan's stalemated him in spars before, and yes, it's pretty obvious that Skywalker > Obi-Wan as a swordsman. Hardly a problem for Obi-Wan, considering that he's better than Krayt, too.

So apparently we're ignoring Insider 88 noting Anakin's confliction during Knightfall?

@Warehouse; Nah, trouncing one of the greatest masters in the Jedi Order with "nigh unparalleled skill" > trouncing a bunch of fodder.

Originally posted by SunRazer
For the final time, I'm referring to this:



And before you say it, yes, I know Palpatine's prediction in the last part of the quote was wrong.
You say "for the final time" as if you showed this quote countless times in the past, lmao.

That doesn't per-se prove he was hindered to a profound degree, either.

So your argument is "Obi wan is better than krayt because he's better than krayt"? Yea, ok I'll bite. It would be a problem for Obiwan because he's not better than Krayt. See how ridiculous that sounds? It also lacks any meaningful information.


Prove they were fodder. They were I believe, the Emperor's personal guard. 4 of his personal guard>1 battlemaster.

I'm not saying Krayt wins but the arguments weigh heavily in his favor, especially with Anakin's "hinderance".

Ventress or Grievous > Some Emperors Guards

They were guarding a decoy, not the real thing. And the fact that they were never hyped up as anything special, just the equivalents of Jedi Knights with good gear, means they're fodder.

Cin at least has some pretty decent hype, and Anakin trounced him while choking a b!tch.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Ventress or Grievous > Some Emperors Gaurds

Ok. "Some" imperial guards (4 Emperor's personal guards)>ventress or grievous. Since we're just throwing out opinions I guess I'll join in.


They were still the Emperor's personal guards that didn't need hyping up. A "regular" imperial knight was considered a match for a fully trained Jedi. These are his personal guards. There were 4 of them and Krayt took them down easily.
Then again, why are we mentioning Anakin's win when he was clearly "hindered" against the likes of Obiwan, making Obiwan's feat less impressive?

Edit: Strike that. Obiwan defeated an allegedly "hindered" Anakin, while knowing his techniques inside and out, and benefitting from Anakin's stupid hail mary move at the end. That about does it?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Proof Anakin was hindered during Knightfall? He was legit crying on Mustafar, and obviously not over Nute Gunray lol.

Grievous who was taking on 5 Jedi, two of which were on the high council is better than a "fully trained Jedi"

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He was legit crying on Mustafar, and obviously not over Nute Gunray lol.

Yeah, he was obviously hindered on Mustafar. I meant evidence he was during Operation Knightfall. I hear conflicting opinions regarding his state of mind there.

Tbh though Ventress and Grievous are superior to those Imperial Guards.

Ventress fought 4 Jedi MASTERS killing one of them early on and then casually stalemating the other 3 leaping over their heads, through their ranks and just demonstrating general superiority to the entire group. She then proceeds to fight Mace afterwards forcing him to use all his skill to drive her off. She also duels both Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously often enough that it's a commonplace event for the three of them.

Grievous whilst hindered stalemated Mace and then proceeded to absolutely trash 4 Jedi simultaneously with contemptuous ease.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, he was obviously hindered on Mustafar. I meant evidence he was during Operation Knightfall. I hear conflicting opinions regarding his state of mind there. My point is that he was conflicted on Mustafar because of what he did during Operation Knightfall, it therefore makes sense he would be conflicted in the act of doing the deed.

All fair points. That doesn't put to any kind of superiority of obiwan over krayt but its reasonable to assume he will tire him out to the point where his vong armor goes haywire on him.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
They were still the Emperor's personal guards that didn't need hyping up. A "regular" imperial knight was considered a match for a fully trained Jedi. These are his personal guards. There were 4 of them and Krayt took them down easily.
Then again, why are we mentioning Anakin's win when he was clearly "hindered" against the likes of Obiwan, making Obiwan's feat less impressive?

Edit: Strike that. Obiwan defeated an allegedly "hindered" Anakin, while knowing his techniques inside and out, and benefitting from Anakin's stupid hail mary move at the end. That about does it?

Read carefully: They were not the Emperor's official royal guard; they were just putting on an act and pretending a decoy.

And Obi-Wan has more than just defeating Anakin, but this Anakin still has feats that rival Krayt's own. And Skywalker knows Kenobi's moves inside-out, as well, so it cancels out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
My point is that he was conflicted on Mustafar because of what he did during Operation Knightfall, it therefore makes sense he would be conflicted in the act of doing the deed.
Ah, the logic seems sound. Fair enuff 3-B.

Originally posted by MythLord
Read carefully: They were not the Emperor's official royal guard; they were just putting on an act and pretending a decoy.

And Obi-Wan has more than just defeating Anakin, but this Anakin still has feats that rival Krayt's own. And Skywalker knows Kenobi's moves inside-out, as well, so it cancels out.

IIRC they were his official guard, that's why the decoy wasn't obvious to the sith since it looked official. As far as what Anakin knows, obiwan fought a defensive battle against anakin so I'm not sure what your point is. That Anakin knows how to defend? At the end, anakin is both hindrance as well as his ill fated attempts at flying ala MJ netted obiwan a victory. I know obiwan has more than defeating anakin because that wasn't super impressive but he's not getting through krayt's defenses. If he wins, it will be a drawn out battle putting him on the defensive and wearing krayt out.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

Grievous whilst hindered stalemated Mace and then proceeded to absolutely trash 4 Jedi simultaneously with contemptuous ease.

Those Jedi also happened to be the Supreme Chancellor's guards.

So a far more physically impressive and skilled iteration of Krayt than the outcast that was stalemating Kenobi until Kenobi realised how big a threat Hett was to Luke? Going with Krayt.

The point of obiwan possibly tiring krayt out is valid though.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
IIRC they were his official guard, that's why the decoy wasn't obvious to the sith since it looked official. As far as what Anakin knows, obiwan fought a defensive battle against anakin so I'm not sure what your point is. That Anakin knows how to defend? At the end, anakin is both hindrance as well as his ill fated attempts at flying ala MJ netted obiwan a victory. I know obiwan has more than defeating anakin because that wasn't super impressive but he's not getting through krayt's defenses. If he wins, it will be a drawn out battle putting him on the defensive and wearing krayt out.

They looked like they were, but they were just Knights guarding a decoy.

Anakin fought alongside Kenobi several times, and knows both his defensive techniques weaknesses, and offensive techniques weaknesses, like the back of his hand. His mental fortitude lessened so he couldn't abuse it as well as Kenobi, but stalemating someone who fodderizes Drallig and can easily collapse and rip apart massive statues is a fairly good feat, I'd say.

And conversly, Krayt isn't scratching Kenobi with anything other than unarmed strikes, which Obi-Wan can deal with. So really, it'll be an impasse, of sorts, until Krayt tires or Kenobi takes the initiative and slices him up.

Where does it state that the knights guarding a decoy were also decoys?
And while it's possible krayt can't break obiwans defenses (although its very likely after another century of experience despite obviously not literally practicing lightsaber drills for said century), it's unlikely obiwan gets through krayt's defenses as well and will have to rely on stamina for a victory.

Yeah, the knights weren't decoys, only Fel.

That would be kind of retarded if they were, considering you see Fel saying goodbye to his cousin later on when it shows him escaping, and his cousin and the Emperor's guard staying behind, knowing full well they'd be killed.

That's what i figured, unless otherwise stated or implied. It's been a while since i had the scans.

They weren't decoys themselves, but they weren't "the best of the best" because they were guarding a look-alike.

Victory through stamina is still victory, and I imagine a tired Krayt's defenses are something Obi can get through. Remember, he is one of the top Ataru masters of the time and can use his defense for offense.

Originally posted by MythLord
They weren't decoys themselves, but they weren't "the best of the best" because they were guarding a look-alike. How do you figure? The point of a decoy is to make everything look real, otherwise the enemies see through the ruse easily. There is nothing to suggest the imperial knights were random knights as opposed to the personal guard.

While this may be true, i would still give the edge to someone who has an extra decade to achieve mastery.

1. Like they knew the very specific guards that guarded the Emperor? They were just Knights, placed to guard a decoy. The best of the best would've likely been guarding the real Fel.

2. That mastery so far not being presented as on Kenobi's level.

Originally posted by MythLord
1. Like they knew the very specific guards that guarded the Emperor? They were just Knights, placed to guard a decoy. The best of the best would've likely been guarding the real Fel. No but if youre using a decoy you're more likely to use the personal guards because at best, they can take down krayt and at worst, they and the decoy die.

that's incredibly speculative. Losing to kenobi after a hard battle and then having over a century of mastering various aspects indicate these to be more than sufficient conditions to take out kenobi.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
No but if youre using a decoy you're more likely to use the personal guards because at best, they can take down krayt and at worst, they and the decoy die.

Not really. The best of the best would've been reserved for the actual Emperor. So Krayt is essentially blitzing Jedi Knight, perhaps somewhat above, level combatants... Really, nothing outside Anakin's capabilities, and Kenobi's performed pretty damn well.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
that's incredibly speculative. Losing to kenobi after a hard battle and then having over a century of mastering various aspects indicate these to be more than sufficient conditions to take out kenobi.

The fight was hard only because Kenobi started going all-out towards the end, where he stomped him, and Hett having a terrain advantage; as well cheapshotting Obi at one point.

You're not understanding. They're not going to put the Emperor in jeapardy. The next best plan is to attach his personal guard to a decoy to make everything look official, and either kill Krayt or die trying while the Emperor lives.


He didn't stomp him, from the scans the fight appeared difficult the entire time. But again if you want to use that kind of context then I'll use the context to excuse Anakin's loss to Obiwan. The point remains if he can defeat Hett with moderate difficulty, then Hett would have the advantage of 100+ more years of experience and mastery.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You're not understanding. They're not going to put the Emperor in jeapardy. The next best plan is to attach his personal guard to a decoy to make everything look official, and either kill Krayt or die trying while the Emperor lives.

That hardly means they'd use the legitimate guard of the Emperor, however. If it's a simple decoy or look-a-like, they'll just place moderately decent guys to guard him, take down Krayt if they're lucky, or die if they're unlucky and either way the Emperor is safe.

But the Emperor's best is still reserved to guard him.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
He didn't stomp him, from the scans the fight appeared difficult the entire time. But again if you want to use that kind of context then I'll use the context to excuse Anakin's loss to Obiwan. The point remains if he can defeat Hett with moderate difficulty, then Hett would have the advantage of 100+ more years of experience and mastery.

I'm referring to the description of the fight in: Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi where Kenobi engages Hett and is holding back until the very end, by then he remembers Luke and dismembers Hett.
Taking into account more favourable circumstances for A'Sharad and Kenobi besting him with "moderate difficulty", plus him going on to kill fodder and learn new Dark Side tricks, doesn't spell victory for him, in any way, tbh.

"I completed training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills in the Clone Wars and I've killed thousands of opponents since then."

"Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era."
--Star Wars Insider #113

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
"I completed training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills in the Clone Wars and I've killed thousands of opponents since then."

"Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era."
--Star Wars Insider #113

Perfect, I was looking for that. It's nice that most of you have these insider quotes still.. Definitely makes the argument in favor of Krayt here.


I'll need to find the scans to see if there's anything in there.


See the insider quote above. 100+ years to hone his skills is MORE than enough time to take down Obiwan, if not most proficient saber combatants.

He spent most of that 100+ years in stasis tho.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He spent most of that 100+ years in stasis tho.

I don't think most of the time but yea a good portion of the time. I didn't mean to insinuate that he studied those 100+ years, just that he had 100+ years to study. Even you lowball it to 20 years, which still feels low, it should be enough time.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I'll need to find the scans to see if there's anything in there.


See the insider quote above. 100+ years to hone his skills is MORE than enough time to take down Obiwan, if not most proficient saber combatants.

Alright.

And I saw the quote. He had 100+ years to hone his skills, only he honed said skills against fodder and was napping most of said time... So the skill disparity between Hett and Vong Krayt shouldn't be vast.

Originally posted by MythLord
Alright.

And I saw the quote. He had 100+ years to hone his skills, only he honed said skills against fodder and was napping most of said time... So the skill disparity between Hett and Vong Krayt shouldn't be vast.

There's nothing to indicate that he was napping most of the time, nor that he fought fodder. Even if I were to grant you both of these conditions, and I'm not, a decade, two, or three increases the disparity, not to mention the increase in his force abilities are bound to help his lightsaber skills. He's got too much time and opportunity going for him to even be on the same level as Obiwan anymore.

Skill progression is not linear though. That's why it's called a learning curve. After a certain level you can't really get much more skilled.

Kenobi is at such level. Dooku for example has 45 years on him, yet is barely more skilled. Same with Mace and Yoda.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Skill progression is not linear though. That's why it's called a learning curve. After a certain level you can't really get much more skilled.

Kenobi is at such level. Dooku for example has 45 years on him, yet is barely more skilled. Same with Mace and Yoda.

It's not linear obviously, it has diminishing returns. But a younger Hett having an extra 20-40 years would more than likely grant him superior saber abilities. And again, saber abilities do increase with the increase in force abilities so while you have diminishing returns, it's very unclear as to what point you're back at 0.

On the other hand, why should skill progression differ greatly from force progression? Someone can become infinitely more power with more and more force knowledge stretching lifetimes (Vitiate). The diminishing returns are hard to reconcile there, if there are any at all.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
There's nothing to indicate that he was napping most of the time, nor that he fought fodder. Even if I were to grant you both of these conditions, and I'm not, a decade, two, or three increases the disparity, not to mention the increase in his force abilities are bound to help his lightsaber skills. He's got too much time and opportunity going for him to even be on the same level as Obiwan anymore.

Yeah, he was. Most of the time was in Stasis. And who of note -- besides Abeloth, which wasn't even a lightsaber duel, but more a Force fight -- did Krayt actually beat, of note, in a lightsaber duel during this period of time?

Nobody. Just fodder Vong and such mooks. Hardly of any worth. And skill progression, like Zoltan noted, is not linear. You reach a certain level of technical skill and mastery and that's your ceiling, after that you just work your Force powers and physicals to try and expand upon further as a combatant.

Krayt's mastery of the lightsaber was clearly not even rivalling a post-prime Kenobi's while he was a Jedi. So him learning new Dark Side tricks, dwelling into Sith lore, then killing fodder doesn't suggest a vast enough increase to go from losing pretty damn considerably to winning.

We don't know but to say they were fodder is just as silly as saying he was fighting saber masters. What he was doing was gaining experience and training. And again, I don't recall anything saying he was in stasis for most of that time.


Sure, and his skill progression may be higher than Obiwan, especially with an extra few decades under his belt. He doesn't have to be a lightsaber god, just enough to beat Obiwan after all of this extra training and that shouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine, if any.


It does with the amount of training he did when he became a sith. Decades more of lightsaber and force mastery should put him well above Obiwan.

Wtf? Darth Krayt obvs.


Edit - Ah, this is Vong Krayt. mmm

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
You say "for the final time" as if you showed this quote countless times in the past, lmao.

That doesn't per-se prove he was hindered to a profound degree, either.

I've shown it three or four times in the last four days, lol.

Profound or not, he was hindered, lol. That's all I said, and all you asked for.

Insider 88, lads, Insider 88.