How powerful is Karness Muur?

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SunRazer
It seems people generally rank RotJ Vader > Muur > 19BBY Vader, but even then, there's quite a gap in between the two Vader's. If anyone could justify a precise ranking for Muur in terms of Force power/mastery, that'd be great.

MS Warehouse
Pretty sure he's more powerful than Vader. All we really have is his powerful lightning that overwhelmed Krayt and his declaration that he's killed sith much more powerful than Krayt.

SunRazer
That's not true at all. He has more than just that.

chingchangwalla
Interested in this too.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by SunRazer
That's not true at all. He has more than just that.

That's just what came to me at the top of my head. He's obviously in the same class as Pall and he was a rival of Drepya who was an absolute beast in the showings in the Lost Tribe comics.

AncientPower
Him being > Vong Krayt puts him above Vader tbh.

MythLord
Him being more powerful than an inferior version of a Vader Kenobi stalemated doesn't strike me as oo-la-la immediately, tbh.

But, in an overall sense of power, ahead of beings like Maul, but below beings like Vader and Krayt strike me as a good position.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by MythLord
Him being more powerful than an inferior version of a Vader Kenobi stalemated doesn't strike me as oo-la-la immediately, tbh.

But, in an overall sense of power, ahead of beings like Maul, but below beings like Vader and Krayt strike me as a good position.

He was also more powerful than Krayt, which puts him above Vader as well. Also, being more powerful than an inferior version that "beat" Obiwan with a lightsaber is completely irrelevant, since we're not discussing lightsaber superiority, but force.

MythLord
Vong Krayt isn't better than Vader.

And Vader beat ANH, post-prime Kenobi only after 19 years of massive improvement. I believe it was clear cut Mustafar Lord Vader and, by extention, Kenobi are greater than 19 BBY Vader.

MS Warehouse
Yea, he is. But we can agree to disagree.


Yet this is a force discussion since Muur has precisely zero showings of lightsaber proficiency aside from a single scan. You decided to bring in sabers as a distraction whether accidentally or intentionally.

SunRazer
The thing is, the more you downplay 19BBY Vader, the more Muur... doesn't get downplayed?

The beauty of that one scan is that it's not just about Muur's power being greater than Vader's, but also that his power, combined with Vader's, could've overthrown the Emperor. The less powerful you make Vader out to be, the more Muur will be compensating for that, lol.

Still not sure where he ranks to later iterations of Vader, though.

MS Warehouse
thumb up


That's the general idea. I honestly don't think there's much force disparity between Vong Krayt and Reborn Krayt. He just lacks the weaknesses Vong Krayt had. If there was any increase, it was in "force clarity".

AncientPower
He's stated to be more powerful than ever, though. erm

SunRazer
Well, Krayt claims that his powers were multiplied. Then again, Muur claims that Vong Krayt was a mere zygote compared to him. I guess Vong Krayt's not a very high benchmark, huh? smile

MS Warehouse
That goes hand in hand with his force clarity and absence of previous weaknesses. I forget though did he say that or was that stated by the author?


Hard to tell, Murr was dead by the time Krayt was reborn. He very well could have said the same thing.

SunRazer
What he said clearly wasn't the case, though, as with his "I've easily slain Sith far more powerful than you!" comment, so it's worthless anyway.

I recall Lord Paladius claiming that stronger Sith than Nox had attempted to take over his cult before, and that he had bested them every time. He said this after the cheap-shot Sever Force. When he still lost to Nox, he's amazed and says something to the effect of Nox being far more powerful than anybody he ever knew. So it's probably something like that.

AncientPower
Kun ~ Krayt > Muur > Vong Krayt ~ ROTJ Vader, is typically what I get from all that.

MS Warehouse
No, i meant he didn't get a chance to voice his opinion of reborn Krayt because he was dead, lol.


Why is Kun above Reborn Krayt?

SunRazer
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
No, i meant he didn't get a chance to voice his opinion of reborn Krayt because he was dead, lol.

I know. I'm saying his commentary would've been worthless anyway.

AncientPower
Why do you think '~' equates to '>'?

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by AncientPower
Why do you think '~' equates to '>'?

Whooops my bad thought I saw a >. Why do you think they are equals?

DarthAnt66
I have Krayt = Kun (= Revan) too.

On topic, I still think he's inferior to Pall.

Ursumeles
I have Krayt=Kun>Pall*=>Revan>Muur=Vader
(I wank hard the Jedi Exiles tbh)

What were 19 BBY Vaders feats again?

Nephthys
Originally posted by AncientPower
Kun ~ Krayt > Muur > Vong Krayt ~ ROTJ Vader, is typically what I get from all that.

ares834
Originally posted by SunRazer
The beauty of that one scan is that it's not just about Muur's power being greater than Vader's,

Well it's not about Murr's power > Vader's. Vader muses that he may fall under Murr's sway, it's not guaranteed that he would. Plus it seems resisting him has more to it than shear power as Celeste resisted MuUr for years and Cade was not tempted in the slightest.

ILS
thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Ursumeles
I have Krayt=Kun>Pall*=>Revan
Revan's unquestionably better than Pall.

Ursumeles

Deronn_solo
He isn't better than a peak Vader, that's for sure.

Ursumeles

DarthAnt66
I don't know what you mean by "this blending power thing."

ILS
Revan embodies smoothies.

Ursumeles

DarthAnt66
He's referred to the Star Map's power as blinding, if that's what you mean.

In which if you follow that logic to the source, that's great indication of Revan's superiority.

But by simply assessing Revan's independent feats and accolades, it's clear he's better too.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
He isn't better than a peak Vader, that's for sure.

Krayt sure is, so is Muur. There are quite a few characters better than peak Vader.


Not this version and not when you compare combat related feats to Bane.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Krayt sure is, so is Muur. There are quite a few characters better than peak Vader.

Like pretty much every SWTOR character. Tell 'em, Beef.

Ursumeles

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Like pretty much every SWTOR character. Tell 'em, Beef.

No, very few but I appreciate your emotional instability discussing this topic. I'll back off for the sake of your sanity thumb up

DarthAnt66
Well the quote was reflecting on how Pall viewed the Star Map back when he was alive, not how he does now as a spirit.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
No, very few but I appreciate your emotional instability discussing this topic. I'll back off for the sake of your sanity thumb up

Don't be coy. Tell them

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Don't be coy. Tell them

Lol. There's nothing to say. You know damn well though that I don't consider most of the swtor characters above Vader, just some of them.

Ursumeles

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
The thing is, the more you downplay 19BBY Vader, the more Muur... doesn't get downplayed?

The beauty of that one scan is that it's not just about Muur's power being greater than Vader's, but also that his power, combined with Vader's, could've overthrown the Emperor. The less powerful you make Vader out to be, the more Muur will be compensating for that, lol.

Still not sure where he ranks to later iterations of Vader, though.

Which is Vader's opinion if he himself gets amplified by the Talisman, tho. And Vader just has some massive wishful thinking about him even approaching Palpatine to begin with.

Also, remember that Vader at this point is also barely tasting what his master is really capable of.

Beniboybling
thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
Galen Marek level. smile

Fated Xtasy
Vader doesn't rank that low Syn, don't be a troll

Unbowed
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, Krayt claims that his powers were multiplied. Then again, Muur claims that Vong Krayt was a mere zygote compared to him. I guess Vong Krayt's not a very high benchmark, huh? smile
Which begs the question, why did Muur want to kill Cade and possess Krayt? He claimed he wanted someone strong in the Dark side, but why take Krayt's decrepit and Vong infested body over someone young and with the speshul Skywalker bloodline?

That always seemed odd to me.

MS Warehouse
Because earlier on Cade resisted Muur and Morne's attempts and broke the raghoul spell. That coupled with Krayt's "illness" made Muur think he was a much easier target.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Vader doesn't rank that low Syn, don't be a troll

You're getting a spanking tonight. smile

DarthDuelist9
It's only a possibility that Muur was more powerful then 19 BBY Vader, not a fact.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You're getting a spanking tonight. smile

How is that a punishment?

UCanShootMyNova
wink

AncientPower
Can we please stop pretending Vader is relevant when Muur's confirmed to be more powerful than Krayt, who is performing on par with FOTJ Luke in Beyond Shadows.

UCanShootMyNova
LMAO.

AncientPower
Read the fight, Luke and Krayt both perform well against Abeloth, Luke takes more of the pressure than Krayt does, but the actual fight speaks for itself. Muur is canonically stated to be Darth Krayt's superior, it's well out of Vader's reach.

S_W_LeGenD
Luke Skywalker held his own with his raw power but Darth Krayt carried himself well with his Force Drain powers, in that confrontation. This example reminds us that Force Drain powers can be a game-changer in a confrontation against a relatively superior foe.

Ursumeles

AncientPower
Vong Krayt's feats are just better than Vader's, especially in Beyond Shadows with Luke.

Ursumeles
While I could see that Beyond Shadows Krayt is > Vader, and up to Plagueis Level, I doubt that Legacy Vong Krayt is above Vader. Which Legacy feats do you mean?

AncientPower
Considering Beyond Shadows Krayt scales down in the same manner Beyond Shadow Luke does, and considering Luke is canonically more powerful than Vader already in the NR era, and that Luke is casually pawning Caedus, an implied superior of Darth Vader himself, prior to FOTJ. Yeh, the writing is on the wall.

Ursumeles

AncientPower
That's not even remotely implied.

Ursumeles

Beniboybling
Originally posted by AncientPower
Can we please stop pretending Vader is relevant when Muur's confirmed to be more powerful than Krayt, who is performing on par with FOTJ Luke in Beyond Shadows. roll eyes (sarcastic)

SunRazer
Originally posted by ares834
Well it's not about Murr's power > Vader's. Vader muses that he may fall under Murr's sway, it's not guaranteed that he would. Plus it seems resisting him has more to it than shear power as Celeste resisted MuUr for years and Cade was not tempted in the slightest.

Sure they weren't. Because they had no need for his power. Vader needed it to overthrow the Emperor. He'd naturally want it more. Celeste viewed herself as shouldering the burden of the Muur Talisman for the safety of others, and Cade only allowed Muur onto his arm so he could destroy him. He had no interest in the power that Muur could offer him to begin with.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by AncientPower
Read the fight, Luke and Krayt both perform well against Abeloth, Luke takes more of the pressure than Krayt does, but the actual fight speaks for itself. Muur is canonically stated to be Darth Krayt's superior, it's well out of Vader's reach.

While I agree with you for the most part, nowhere is it actually canonically stated that Muur is superior to Krayt. It was Muur's own opinion which I also tend to side with.

SunRazer
Muur's canonically more powerful than Vong Krayt, yeah.

But I don't take Vong Krayt as more powerful than Apocalypse Krayt.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by SunRazer
Muur's canonically more powerful than Vong Krayt, yeah.

But I don't take Vong Krayt as more powerful than Apocalypse Krayt.

Again, while I agree this is the case, where is this canonically stated? I've never seen anything resembling a quote. Through arguments he's obviously superior but that's about it.

Apocalypse Krayt doesn't have the 100+ years of experience of Vong Krayt but he already seems incredibly powerful during Luke's peak, basically on equal terms with Luke.

Beniboybling
Hurr durr Insider isn't Canon.

Hurr door publisher's summaries aren't Canon.

Take your L, Nova.

SunRazer
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Again, while I agree this is the case, where is this canonically stated? I've never seen anything resembling a quote. Through arguments he's obviously superior but that's about it.

Here:





Hardly on equal terms. It's been discussed many times, I don't have the energy to do it again.

MS Warehouse
Jesus, I need to get my hands on these insider articles. They're so damn good. Point conceded.


I've never seen the discussion but I've read the book and the fight repeatedly. It appeared they were on equal terms.

Beniboybling
I'm not seeing where Krayt showed parity with Luke during that fight, tbfh.

SunRazer
Yeah, that's not shown anywhere. Luke took a beating early on in the fight where Krayt didn't really do much. He only really contributed once Abeloth was weakened from her other avatars being destroyed.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, that's not shown anywhere. Luke took a beating early on in the fight where Krayt didn't really do much. He only really contributed once Abeloth was weakened from her other avatars being destroyed.

From what I remember, at least offensively, Krayt appeared to do more. But again, it's been about 3 years since I last read the book so I could be wrong.

SunRazer
He "did more" once Luke took the brunt of Abeloth's assault and Abeloth weakened dramatically after her avatars were being struck down throughout the galaxy. Luke was restraining Abeloth for Krayt at points, too, so that's not exactly the most valid comparison either.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by SunRazer
He "did more" once Luke took the brunt of Abeloth's assault and Abeloth weakened dramatically after her avatars were being struck down throughout the galaxy. Luke was restraining Abeloth for Krayt at points, too, so that's not exactly the most valid comparison either.

Interesting. Ok

cs_zoltan
Lmao who the **** thinks BS (unfortunate acronym) Krayt < Vong Krayt, or even that they are equal? Pure, unadulterated cancer.

MS Warehouse
Are you saying he's better or worse than Vong Krayt?

Beniboybling
In all fairness Krayt's spiritual essence or whatever is hardly going to be restricted by his Vong implants, and who else knows what besides.

MS Warehouse
I'm wondering why people think Beyond Shadows Krayt is superior to Vong Krayt who's had again, another century of mastering force techniques.

cs_zoltan
Idk, maybe because Vong Krayt was on his deathbed. I wonder why people think RotS Yoda > RotJ Yoda mmm

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Idk, maybe because Vong Krayt was on his deathbed. I wonder why people think RotS Yoda > RotJ Yoda mmm

Except he wasn't. He had to fight a Skywalker just to be in need of treatment, and we're discussing pure force abilities, not what would happen in a vs. match between both versions. Vong Krayt is obviously more refined in both saber combat and force abilities than his young counterpart, who's been a sith for exactly what, 10 years?

SunRazer
He was still being devoured inside-out by parasites.

MS Warehouse
Again, pure force abilities and lightsaber combat, not a 1 on 1 scenario. Vong krayt should be more powerful on all counts.

SunRazer
Krayt's connection to the Force would've been impaired by his state, lol.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by SunRazer
Krayt's connection to the Force would've been impaired by his state, lol. The only thing that appears impaired is his stamina.

ILS
Krayt would need to dedicate part of his Force reserves to managing the parasites while doing everything else Force-related, which is why his stamina drained more quickly. He also had to repair the damage down to his body which is why he'd go into bacta tanks and healing meditations.

So, I suppose it's a similar case to Anakin/Vader. Youth and vitality vs experience and degradation. Not an exact parallel but the same gist.

Then you imagine that Krayt Reborn is Krayt in a prime body, who can heal wounds easily with Dark Transfer, with centuries of experience and knowledge to draw from.

Pretty shmexy.

MS Warehouse
Krayt reborn is a different animal and one of the most powerful characters in the mythos. I was comparing krayt as of beyond shadows compared to vong krayt

Ursumeles
BS Krayt wasn't as damaged as Vong Krayt as well.
It is still what ILS said:youth and raw power vs experience and degradation.
His Anakin/Vader paralell is imo pretty good, as Vader definietly mastered the force better(like Vong Krayt) than his younger self, while Anakin(like BS Krayt) has more raw power(*cough* his fight aggainst Dokku *cough*)

MS Warehouse
But if vong krayt showed impressive force abilities while spending considerable energy holding his sickness at bay, that makes him appear even more powerful.

Ursumeles
The problem is, that he must uses a part of his power, to hold his sickness on bay.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Ursumeles
The problem is, that he must uses a part of his power, to hold his sickness on bay. Yes but his power despite his illness is considerably greater than bs krayt.

Ursumeles
The Power of Vong Krayt, that he didn't use to hold his sickness on bay, is imo >>BS Krayts.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Ursumeles
The Power of Vong Krayt, that he didn't use to hold his sickness on bay, is imo >>BS Krayts.

thumb up

Ursumeles
*<<
Damn xD

SunRazer
But whenever we talk about him, we count the fact that he's using some of his power to stave off the sickness. Things like Muur's scaling over him would also count that.

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