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1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-Out

Marek.

It comes down to... which do you think is more impressive, shifting an Imperial Star Destroyer, or literally pulling an Endar Spire-sized ship out of the sky.

Are we still using Khem Val's subjective myths as legitimate feats for Hord? mmm

Well, in that case, Marek was pre-prime and redirected a far larger vessel.

Quite, an ISD is infinitely greater in mass lmao.

Marek has feats. This clown does not.
Galen wins.

Originally posted by MythLord
Are we still using Khem Val's subjective myths as legitimate feats for Hord? mmm

Well, in that case, Marek was pre-prime and redirected a far larger vessel. Why are they myths though?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, we have no reason not to believe him, when theres other evidence that have him as a high-level combatant.

Codex for Tulak Hord supports evidence laid down by Khem Val, not to mention Val's own words that said that Hord defeated him in combat.

Khem Val didn't HEAR that Hord pulled down an Endar Spire from the sky, he saw it with his own eyes.

Hord.

Marek sweeps, lmao.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Why are they myths though?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, we have no reason not to believe him, when theres other evidence that have him as a high-level combatant.

Codex for Tulak Hord supports evidence laid down by Khem Val, not to mention Val's own words that said that Hord defeated him in combat.

Khem Val didn't HEAR that Hord pulled down an Endar Spire from the sky, he saw it with his own eyes.
Unsupported statements based on nothing but hearsay. There's literally no evidence for a single one of Hord's "feats." Just hype. The codex for Tulak Hord doesn't support anything Khem has said; it is what Khem Val said,

which is not evidence within itself. You have no proof for that final statement, and even if you did, we saw Marek move a much larger object ourselves. A primary source trumps a secondary source, not to mention Marek's feat is far more impressive. Like by bounds.

Hord has other feats than Khem Val's tales:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4486702-4575685918-KB98r.gif

"You have been touched by the Force and an echo of that power remains within you."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

Genuine question: Can Marek do this to the likes of Darth Nox, or Barsen'thor?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Unsupported statements based on nothing but hearsay. There's literally no evidence for a single one of Hord's "feats." Just hype. The codex for Tulak Hord doesn't support anything Khem has said; it is what Khem Val said,

which is not evidence within itself. You have no proof for that final statement, and even if you did, we saw Marek move a much larger object ourselves. A primary source trumps a secondary source, not to mention Marek's feat is far more impressive. Like by bounds.

Nothing you said really combated my argument though.

I never claimed anything about a ritual.

They are EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS, not hearsay.

Khem Val didn't hear that it happened, he saw it happened, and he says as such in TOR.

Originally posted by Azronger
Hord has other feats than Khem Val's tales:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4486702-4575685918-KB98r.gif

"You have been touched by the Force and an echo of that power remains within you."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

Genuine question: Can Marek do this to the likes of Darth Nox, or Barsen'thor? Yes, he could.

I don't doubt that he could whatsoever.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/darthant66/blog/tulak-hord-respect-thread/103379/

I'm not even going to comment on using gimmicks that are gameplay only as actual showings.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Nothing you said really combated my argument though.

Yeah, it kind of did. Not that you really had an argument.

You are using the codex as a source, as there is literally no other codex about Tulak Hord's showings, and character really, in the entire game, and that is the only statement about his power.

No, no, it's not. It's a historian talking about what was believed to be accounted about in said battle.

You are talking about Hord's other "feats," like claiming he sat his army there and made them watch him fight thousands of Jedi at once and alone. Considering Khem claims he was feasting during said battle and took part in it, no Khem does not support you, or himself for that matter, and the only actual showing you can claim he legit saw was hitting the Endar Spire-sized ship, which Marek has a superior showing to. That was the point, incase this was too difficult for you to grasp. The rest is hype, none of which any codex even speaks on let alone supports.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not even going to comment on using gimmicks that are gameplay only as actual showings.

Yeah, it kind of did. Not that you really had an argument.

You are using the codex as a source, as there is literally no other codex about Tulak Hord's showings, and character really, in the entire game, and that is the only statement about his power.

No, no, it's not. It's a historian talking about what was believed to be accounted about in said battle.

You are talking about Hord's other "feats," like claiming he sat his army there and made them watch him fight thousands of Jedi at once and alone. Considering Khem claims he was feasting during said battle and took part in it, no Khem does not support you, or himself for that matter, and the only actual showing you can claim he legit saw was hitting the Endar Spire-sized ship, which Marek has a superior showing to. That was the point, incase this was too difficult for you to grasp. The rest is hype, none of which any codex even speaks on let alone supports.


I no longer support the killing 1,000 Jedi thing.

But according to Val, he did single-handedly break the siege of Yn, and also defeated Val himself.

Also, Marek didn't directly move the ship, he diverted it and just barely stopped it.

Hord straight up pulled the ****ing ship OUT OF THE SKY using his own force power.

Kreia and Chris Avellone seem to agree with one another about the Hord thing btw.

The thing with the ancients is, if you don't take the hype seriously, then its impossible to really use them in versus matches unless you use people like Muur, Kun, or Nadd, who all have impressive feats.

So then just don't use them?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
So then just don't use them? Because there are the half that believe in the hype, and the other half that don't believe it.

People like me, SKILLZ, Nai, NewGuy, and others believe in the hype.

Then you have people like Bart, Freshest and others who choose not to believe it.

The hype can't be proven or disproven, but by using power scaling, the Ancients can be somewhat properly ranked, using Muur as the starting pedestal and Ragnos as the ending.

(I would say Kun, but he has enough feats to back up his hype).

In all honesty, when has a character showed in SW that had big hype, but was lousy?

I can't think of any off the type of my head.

Still, what quotes say Sadow, Kressh or Hord>Muur/Pall?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Because there are the half that believe in the hype, and the other half that don't believe it.

People like me, SKILLZ, Nai, NewGuy, and others believe in the hype.

Then you have people like Bart, Freshest and others who choose not to believe it.

The hype can't be proven or disproven, but by using power scaling, the Ancients can be somewhat properly ranked, using Muur as the starting pedestal and Ragnos as the ending.

(I would say Kun, but he has enough feats to back up his hype).

In all honesty, when has a character showed in SW that had big hype, but was lousy?

I can't think of any off the type of my head.

If there's no consensus on this, I don't see the point of putting them in battles if people won't agree on what is what. If you can't prove or disprove, then I don't see how it's possible to use these guys as far as battles go. Especially since there's a divide.

Nothing. Tulak is only placed as the best duelist of the Ancients and this is by a statement from a character.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Still, what quotes say Sadow, Kressh or Hord>Muur/Pall? Kreia and Chris Avellone have Tulak Hord as the best Lightsaber Duelist of ALL the ancients.

Just as well, Hord has a pretty insane TK feat.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Nothing. Tulak is only placed as the best duelist of the Ancients and this is by a statement from a character. And Chris Avellone, or did you miss that?

Drew has made plenty of statements about his characters that he later took back or contradicted. Author statements should be taken wearily.

Regardless being the best duelist of the Ancients doesn't place him above them as an overall combatant.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Drew has made plenty of statements about his characters that he later took back or contradicted. Author statements should be taken wearily.

Regardless being the best duelist of the Ancients doesn't place him above them as an overall combatant. This isn't Drew though, this is Avellone, and he never took back this statement, merely backed up what Kreia said.

You're right, being the best duelist and having an insane TK feat does.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I no longer support the killing 1,000 Jedi thing.

It's pretty much his only other showing, and without it, he's definitely losing to Marek.

That is another case of him killing thousands of Jedi, and defeating Khem isn't above Marek, lel. Not to mention, Hord went there with a shit ton of Force Sensitives and used rituals.

So what you saying is, he directly moved the ship? Because that's what it sounds like you said.

I like how you know every single detail from an instance by a two second offhanded line from Khem.

You do realize Avellone wrote Kreia? Like she's his mouthpiece, you realize this, yes? I'm guessing no from the number of times you've repeated the amazing fact that an author thinks what he thought.

It has nothing to do with taking the hype seriously and a lot more to do with learning to be a skeptic and examine what's in your cup before drinking a deep glass of Kool-Aid.

Taking all of Hord's hype at face value...

Hord easily

Unsure, probably Marek

Hord

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Kreia and Chris Avellone have Tulak Hord as the best Lightsaber Duelist of ALL the ancients.

Just as well, Hord has a pretty insane TK feat.
Than Hord is pretty good at sabers. Eh, I am not that impressed by the TK feat, tbh.
Then Hord is >Muur as Duelist.
And what makes Sadow and Kressh>them?

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Taking all of Hord's hype at face value...

Hord easily

Unsure, probably Marek

Hord

Yes, good.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's pretty much his only other showing, and without it, he's definitely losing to Marek.

That is another case of him killing thousands of Jedi, and defeating Khem isn't above Marek, lel. Not to mention, Hord went there with a shit ton of Force Sensitives and used rituals.

So what you saying is, he directly moved the ship? Because that's what it sounds like you said.

I like how you know every single detail from an instance by a two second offhanded line from Khem.

You do realize Avellone wrote Kreia? Like she's his mouthpiece, you realize this, yes? I'm guessing no from the number of times you've repeated the amazing fact that an author thinks what he thought.

It has nothing to do with taking the hype seriously and a lot more to do with learning to be a skeptic and examine what's in your cup before drinking a deep glass of Kool-Aid. Everyone on KMC barring me and Syn have Marek below ANH Vader, Hord's feats should put him dangerously close to, or above ANH Vader.

Thats what Val said, IIRC.

"Once Tulak Hord pulled a ship this size out of the sky."

Or something along those lines.

Yeah, I know Avellone wrote Kreia, which is why I'm inclined to believe him and her, since Avellone worked with LucasArts on the game, and everyone else seems to have his word as law based on what happens in KOTOR II.

I honestly do believe that Tulak Hord pulling an Endar Spire out of the sky is as impressive as Galen Marek barely managing to stop a Star Destroyer with all the time in the world to do so.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's pretty much his only other showing, and without it, he's definitely losing to Marek.

That is another case of him killing thousands of Jedi, and defeating Khem isn't above Marek, lel. Not to mention, Hord went there with a shit ton of Force Sensitives and used rituals.

So what you saying is, he directly moved the ship? Because that's what it sounds like you said.

I like how you know every single detail from an instance by a two second offhanded line from Khem.

You do realize Avellone wrote Kreia? Like she's his mouthpiece, you realize this, yes? I'm guessing no from the number of times you've repeated the amazing fact that an author thinks what he thought.

It has nothing to do with taking the hype seriously and a lot more to do with learning to be a skeptic and examine what's in your cup before drinking a deep glass of Kool-Aid. Why would you be a skeptic when theres more evidence pointing to the evidence being true then not being true?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Yes, he could.

I don't doubt that he could whatsoever.

Could he do so as a powerless spirit, though?

Originally posted by Azronger
Hord has other feats than Khem Val's tales:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4486702-4575685918-KB98r.gif

"You have been touched by the Force and an echo of that power remains within you."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

Genuine question: Can Marek do this to the likes of Darth Nox, or Barsen'thor?

That is more along the lines of a game mechanic... I mean, Sith that weren't ever present on Yavin IV, made their appearance on Yavin IV... Also, simply hurling back a non-defending Force user doesn't strike me as powerful.

Originally posted by MythLord
That is more along the lines of a game mechanic... I mean, Sith that weren't ever present on Yavin IV, made their appearance on Yavin IV... Also, simply hurling back a non-defending Force user doesn't strike me as powerful.

Sith spirits can travel instantly from and to any place strong in the dark side.

Is there actually anything in the lore that contradicts this feat? If not, I don't see why it shouldn't be accepted. It just solidifies the ancients' place of power as far higher than the protags.

And it's impressive because it left an echo of the power in the protag, and I can't confirm this, but isn't it impossible for the protags to get close without being hurled backward?

No, no they cannot. Palpatine could, but he knew almost every Force power, which would include teleportation/Fold Space... Most Sith Spirits are bound to a tomb, planet, or place.

Marka Ragnos was bound to Korriban, yet he's on Yavin IV in TOR somehow.

It leaving an echo is just the fancy way of saying: "Welp, the protag got darn touched by a Force Ghost!" and there's no proof the protags were even combat ready or had their Force Barriers up... It is as legitimate as a random NPC Bounty Hunter shooting you in the chest, and then hurling you back via physical hit, yet only you still stand with less HP.

It is a game mechanic, or rather easter egg... Hardly something I'd take as canon.

You can't even interact with Sith Spirits with normal force powers, as seen in the Inquisitor story.

That is offense, though, not defense. And I guess that means nobody can defend against Spirits?

Old Ben's Force Ghost chokes Palpatine

Originally posted by MythLord
No, no they cannot. Palpatine could, but he knew almost every Force power, which would include teleportation/Fold Space... Most Sith Spirits are bound to a tomb, planet, or place.

Freedon Nadd, Talzin, Vitiate, Kallig...?



Or maybe he just never was permanently bound there? Or maybe it's a retcon?



It mentions being touched and and an echo being left there as separate things. The protags may not have had their Force shields up, but how many times have you seen a Force user affect, not the environment, but another Force user so profoundly it left an echo?



So simply because it didn't happen in a cutscene?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can't even interact with Sith Spirits with normal force powers, as seen in the Inquisitor story.

Or maybe it just requires comparable power levels? Exar Kun blasting Freedon Nadd and Sidious repelling the Dark Jedi exiles come to mind.

I am very interested in the last feat. Could you give it me, Azronger?

Originally posted by Azronger
Or maybe it just requires comparable power levels? Exar Kun blasting Freedon Nadd and Sidious repelling the Dark Jedi exiles come to mind.

Nox attacks ghosts a few times with lightning and it just goes right through them. Techniques exist to harm them but normal stuff won't cut it.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Why would you be a skeptic when theres more evidence pointing to the evidence being true then not being true?
First of all, skepticism is always valid. Second, there's no evidence at all, so despite you saying, "Proof!" over and over again, there's really nothing to support your point.

Originally posted by Azronger
Freedon Nadd, Talzin, Vitiate, Kallig...?

I like how only none, that is correct zero, of these is an actual Sith spirit that fits your description. By the way, Kallig is bound to Nox through bullshit plot reasons and blood. He can't just appear anywhere.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
First of all, skepticism is always valid. Second, there's no evidence at all, so despite you saying, "Proof!" over and over again, there's really nothing to support your point. Whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy.

On paper, reading everything that you can into the tiny little blurbs that we have on Hord, he should be a beast. Based on the actual evidence that we have, I can't reasonably see him defeating Galen, especially as of his final showing against Palpatine. Again, maybe one day we'll see a canon Hord novel and get some real perspective on him, but until then it's pretty empty trying to argue for his real place in the saga.

Galen in all.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
On paper, reading everything that you can into the tiny little blurbs that we have on Hord, he should be a beast. Based on the actual evidence that we have, I can't reasonably see him defeating Galen, especially as of his final showing against Palpatine. Again, maybe one day we'll see a canon Hord novel and get some real perspective on him, but until then it's pretty empty trying to argue for his real place in the saga.

Galen in all. Based on the actual evidence we have, he's a beast in sabers and force.

Please stop using Galen's final showing against Sidious.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Please stop using Galen's final showing against Sidious. Only half of it is in oneness tho.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox attacks ghosts a few times with lightning and it just goes right through them. Techniques exist to harm them but normal stuff won't cut it.

Maybe Kallig went intangible? Even the living can do that.

And Kun's amulet blasts seem completely normal and like any other Force attack.

@Freshest

This was my description:

Originally posted by Azronger
Sith spirits can travel instantly from and to any place strong in the dark side.

I'd say at least Freedon Nadd and Vitiate fit that category. Jedi Academy Training Manual says that goes for all dark side spirits, though:

Using the Force, dark side spirits can move vitually instantaneously to any point in the galaxy that has some amount of dark side energy present.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I am very interested in the last feat. Could you give it me, Azronger?

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5335416-sidious+repels+the+ancient+sith.png

Thank you!
Also, I could see Hord winning, if his Hype is correct.
Not see any reason, tho, why Galen should lose force, and All-Out.

Urs. You understand that being the best swordsman of a group doesn't nessecarily mean you'd win a sabers battle.

As ridiculous as that sounds, hear me out.

If a Force user has greater force augmentation then they have superior physicals, reflexes and precognition. This can help to make up for an apparent gap in skill between two duelists.

I know it, It just said that.
Also, Muur wasn't among the Group, of which Hord was stated to be above, IIRC, so Galen could be more skilled. Yeah, Galen wins every round 10/10.

I'll help you a bit wanking Galen, after our debate, okay?

Go right ahead. You and Jman can be my minions.

Disagree with Jman in many, tho. Lel. Do you think that Galen or Starkiller is stronger btw. I suppose, you think Galen, or?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Urs. You understand that being the best swordsman of a group doesn't nessecarily mean you'd win a sabers battle.

As ridiculous as that sounds, hear me out.

If a Force user has greater force augmentation then they have superior physicals, reflexes and precognition. This can help to make up for an apparent gap in skill between two duelists. Good thing Hord has incredible raw power then.

:/

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Go right ahead. You and Jman can be my minions. I'm no ones minion.

You can make a mean Wall of text argument though, Syn.

Thanks Jman. I guess you guys can be allies.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Good thing Hord has incredible raw power then.

:/
Galen has extremely incredible raw power, tho ))

Which we actually see detailed descriptions of as well, rather than the whispers and allusions we get for Hord.