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Galen Marek from TFU and Sith Stalker Marek from TFU: Ultimate Sith Edition

vs.


Starkiller Clone from TFU II and Dark Starkiler from the TFU II DLC

Who takes this?

Not sure. Galen should be the MVP but the DA's power level is ambiguous and hinted at being even greater then Galen's. SS and SK should be about on par as combatants.

Team 1 steamrolls

TFU II team. Both are superior to either on team TFU.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not sure. Galen should be the MVP but the DA's power level is ambiguous and hinted at being even greater then Galen's. SS and SK should be about on par as combatants. I disagree.

Sidious seems to act like Galen Marek as of USE has lost so much of himself, when in reality, he doesn't really lose that much, nowhere NEAR as much lost potential as Vader had.

He didn't have to change up his saber style, was still just as powerful in the force, and had more powers, to boot.

If anything, I feel like he improved in all aspects as of the end of USE.

Dunno where to Quantify DSK, but I feel like the first one going down is SK on team 2.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I disagree.

Sidious seems to act like Galen Marek as of USE has lost so much of himself, when in reality, he doesn't really lose that much, nowhere NEAR as much lost potential as Vader had.

He didn't have to change up his saber style, was still just as powerful in the force, and had more powers, to boot.

If anything, I feel like he improved in all aspects as of the end of USE.

Dunno where to Quantify DSK, but I feel like the first one going down is SK on team 2.

Can you give me one of his showings that hint at him being equally powerful in the Force? Granted his knowledge and skill would have grown but unless we have evidence proving otherwise his augmentation and combative force abilities would have diminished.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
TFU II team. Both are superior to either on team TFU.

DA is potentially superior though he has no showings to back this assertion up, only Vader's commentary. Starkiller is blatantly not.

http://puu.sh/ra6Py/c1215829e2.png

mmm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Starkiller is just an upgrade spite of his mental stability. He's better in every regard otherwise.

Vader stated that the clone was weaker than the original.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Can you give me one of his showings that hint at him being equally powerful in the Force? Granted his knowledge and skill would have grown but unless we have evidence proving otherwise his augmentation and combative force abilities would have diminished. Beating ESB Luke while having a power boost?

Beating Ben Kenobi, who was arguably ANH Vader's equal.

I'd actually argue USE Marek toyed with ESB Luke.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Beating ESB Luke while having a power boost?

Beating Ben Kenobi, who was arguably ANH Vader's equal.

Those aren't inherently power related though...

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I'd actually argue USE Marek toyed with ESB Luke.

This is probably true, yes.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Vader stated that the clone was weaker than the original.

Could you post the quote?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
TFU II team. Both are superior to either on team TFU.

Proof SP?

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Vader stated that the clone was weaker than the original.

If we're going by what Vader says, then Dark Starkiller is more powerful than Galen ever was.

https://youtu.be/X93zuZg15OM?t=154

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Proof SP?

Uh, I'll try to get on that later, do you mind waiting until tomorrow night?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://puu.sh/ra6Py/c1215829e2.png

mmm

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
In argumentation theory,

Yes Ant. In argumentation theory.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Can you give me one of his showings that hint at him being equally powerful in the Force? Granted his knowledge and skill would have grown but unless we have evidence proving otherwise his augmentation and combative force abilities would have diminished. He didn't have the disadvantages that Vader had, he could still use Force Lightning, in fact, to a greater extent then before, as before, he was incapable of using purple lightning, but is capable of doing so now.

Vader was capable of Tutaminis, but would short-circuit, and possibly kill himself, had he used Force Lightning.

There were no cybernetics attached to the Stalker besides prosthetics, which, in theory, shouldn't really hinder him at all.

The color of the lightning is totally irrelevant lol.

Have to side with Zoltan here. This isn't DBZ.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Have to side with Zoltan here. This isn't DBZ. I guess, but the other stuff has to be taken into account.

In all honesty, despite what Palpatine said, I think he just assumed that Marek was another Vader, he wasn't. He had way more advantages then Vader had, and had very little holding him back from reaching his true potential.

Not to mention, this is years after The Force Unleashed had concluded, as you fight ESB Luke.

And that's your assumption.

Who's to say the reconstruction he underwent didn't remove much of his biomass?

I trust Palpatine's ability to measure a person's power.

Unless he has the feats to support your stance I'll stick with Palpie's assesment.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And that's your assumption.

Who's to say the reconstruction he underwent didn't remove much of his biomass?

I trust Palpatine's ability to measure a person's power.

Unless he has the feats to support your stance I'll stick with Palpie's assesment. Agree to disagree then.

You ask for proof, and I can't provide you any solid quotes or scans; but I can give you my argument, which is that since Starkiller is Galen Marek's genetic clone, he has all of Galen's raw power and thus is comparable if not superior to the original.

I know you have Galen above Starkiller, but I have no real strong opinion on which is superior. I know I quoted Zoltan saying both were superior, but I'm not going to try to argue Starkiller vs Galen. Their performances against Vader were similar, and they both have insane respective TK showings, Galen with his droid hurricane and Star Destroyer manipulation and Starkiller with his Frigate shielding. If Starkiller is not superior, then I think the gap between them is negligible.

However, Dark Starkiller if we're taking him from his DLC appearance should logically be greater than either Starkiller or Galen given the extra amount of time he's had to improve. I know passage of time is not a clear indication of improvement (like with Scourge), but Dark Killer has Galen's raw power, increased focus, and extra time to hone skills by going on missions for Vader up til the Battle of Endor.

Meanwhile Lord Starkiller should logically be the weakest here. His potential was marred and his DLC showings aren't above Galen or Starkiller ( Beating Old Ben, beating Boba Fett, beating ESB Luke). Getting crushed by the Rogue Shadow definitely didn't make Marek stronger, and unlike Vader, we don't have sources like Dark Lord to explore how being crippled affected him.

Overall, Dark Killer is the best one here, the gap between Starkiller and Galen isn't that substantial to make a difference, and Lord Starkiller is the weakest one here. Team 2.

He has Galen's potential. Not his raw power.

Galen's was better, granted TFUII Vader is more cautious, has insulated armor and has several other factors aiding him in the fight. I find Galen to be superior due to his showings against Sidious actually.

Galen's technically been trained for nearly a decade and a half by Vader though the DA and SK possess his memories. Vader comments that the DA has surpassed Galen but that was never confirmed and Vader has been known to manipulate Galen and his clones by not always giving them accurate praise and or advice.

I agree that Lord Starkiller would be the weakest.

DA may be the best one here. He may not be. That's why I can't personally make a decision on it.

Originally posted by Solar Power
You ask for proof, and I can't provide you any solid quotes or scans; but I can give you my argument, which is that since Starkiller is Galen Marek's genetic clone, he has all of Galen's raw power and thus is comparable if not superior to the original.

I know you have Galen above Starkiller, but I have no real strong opinion on which is superior. I know I quoted Zoltan saying both were superior, but I'm not going to try to argue Starkiller vs Galen. Their performances against Vader were similar, and they both have insane respective TK showings, Galen with his droid hurricane and Star Destroyer manipulation and Starkiller with his Frigate shielding. If Starkiller is not superior, then I think the gap between them is negligible.

However, Dark Starkiller if we're taking him from his DLC appearance should logically be greater than either Starkiller or Galen given the extra amount of time he's had to improve. I know passage of time is not a clear indication of improvement (like with Scourge), but Dark Killer has Galen's raw power, increased focus, and extra time to hone skills by going on missions for Vader up til the Battle of Endor.

Meanwhile Lord Starkiller should logically be the weakest here. His potential was marred and his DLC showings aren't above Galen or Starkiller ( Beating Old Ben, beating Boba Fett, beating ESB Luke). Getting crushed by the Rogue Shadow definitely didn't make Marek stronger, and unlike Vader, we don't have sources like Dark Lord to explore how being crippled affected him.

Overall, Dark Killer is the best one here, the gap between Starkiller and Galen isn't that substantial to make a difference, and Lord Starkiller is the weakest one here. Team 2.

Yeah, but people can take injuries and recover, he didn't SEEM to lose much as Lord Starkiller, is all I'm saying.

One thing that we can take away from Marek being reconstructed is that he definitely didn't straight up LOSE any power, his powers became more varied in USE.

He had more advantages then Vader did, which is something that absolutely can't be argued, everything about Lord Starkiller is superior, he has no advanced cybernetics keeping him alive, he isn't hindered by some electronic suit, which also means he can use Force Lightning. IIRC Correctly, Starkiller Clone was only barely winning in TFU II, and Vader improved between that time and ANH.

Yet Lord Starkiller is able to solidly defeat Ben as Vader did in ANH.

The second time, he didn't even use his lightsaber, nor could he.

To me, that demonstrates blatant superiority over ANH Vader at the very least.

Now, Syn, I dunno if you have Galen above ROTJ Vader like I do, but if you do, it can plainly be seen just be the scale of what Galen does AS Lord Starkiller.

According to whats said about the Stalker armor, all it really does is add some prothetics.

Sure, his potential may be screwed, but that doesn't mean he downgraded as a combatant.

If this sounds really stupid, I haven't gotten sleep yet, so I apologize.

I do have Galen above RotJ Vader.

No, I understand what you're saying. I agree that it's possible that Lord Starkiller is a comparable combatant. We just don't know though.

@UCanShootMyNova

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I thought raw power was synonymous with potential. Like I thought raw power was the total reserves of a force user, and mastery affected how much raw power a force user could effectively bring out, i.e. Kyp may have greater raw power than a great majority of the mythos, but he wouldn't be able to ragdoll in many fights because he lacked the focus to bring his full power to bear. It's with this definition in mind when I made that statement, so I thought since Starkiller is a clone, they have the same raw power.

Galen's performance against Sidious is something I'd like to touch on maybe later when I have more time to look at more sources. I won't debate it atm.

I don't know how length of training matters when as you've said, Starkiller has Galen's memories and has presumably been training in Kamino as well. Just wondering, but how much higher do you have Galen over Starkiller?

@Jmanghan
Some of your points have made me think, but I question some of the conjecture you've made about Lord Starkiller. His fight with Ben Kenobi's spirit is a dubious showing to me, I mean when have spirits ever been known to wield lightsabers? When has a force sensitive ever demonstrated the ability to vanquish a spirit by purely using sith lighting? Conventional force attacks seem to be ineffective against spirits, as exhibited in SWTOR. Given the nature of the game as DLC, the fight against Ben's ghost is probably the only showing that's too inconsistent for me to quantify.

I guess his defeat of Ben is a comparable showing to ANH Vader, but given that TFU is legends, ANH Vader was far from his prime to begin with. Toying ESB Luke is diminished by the fact that Luke hadn't even gone to Dagobah at that point.

Unfortunately, debating these characters is just relying too much on assumptions. As Syndi said, we just don't know enough about any them besides Killer and Galen.

Originally posted by Solar Power
@UCanShootMyNova

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I thought raw power was synonymous with potential. Like I thought raw power was the total reserves of a force user, and mastery affected how much raw power a force user could effectively bring out, i.e. Kyp may have greater raw power than a great majority of the mythos, but he wouldn't be able to ragdoll in many fights because he lacked the focus to bring his full power to bear. It's with this definition in mind when I made that statement, so I thought since Starkiller is a clone, they have the same raw power.

Galen's performance against Sidious is something I'd like to touch on maybe later when I have more time to look at more sources. I won't debate it atm.

I don't know how length of training matters when as you've said, Starkiller has Galen's memories and has presumably been training in Kamino as well. Just wondering, but how much higher do you have Galen over Starkiller?

@Jmanghan
Some of your points have made me think, but I question some of the conjecture you've made about Lord Starkiller. His fight with Ben Kenobi's spirit is a dubious showing to me, I mean when have spirits ever been known to wield lightsabers? When has a force sensitive ever demonstrated the ability to vanquish a spirit by purely using sith lighting? Conventional force attacks seem to be ineffective against spirits, as exhibited in SWTOR. Given the nature of the game as DLC, the fight against Ben's ghost is probably the only showing that's too inconsistent for me to quantify.

I guess his defeat of Ben is a comparable showing to ANH Vader, but given that TFU is legends, ANH Vader was far from his prime to begin with. Toying ESB Luke is diminished by the fact that Luke hadn't even gone to Dagobah at that point.

Unfortunately, debating these characters is just relying too much on assumptions. As Syndi said, we just don't know enough about any them besides Killer and Galen.

It's not. At least as far as I've seen depicted and indicated by several novels in the EU including TFU itself.

Alright.

Not by too much. A fair margin at most.

Originally posted by Solar Power
@UCanShootMyNova

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I thought raw power was synonymous with potential. Like I thought raw power was the total reserves of a force user, and mastery affected how much raw power a force user could effectively bring out, i.e. Kyp may have greater raw power than a great majority of the mythos, but he wouldn't be able to ragdoll in many fights because he lacked the focus to bring his full power to bear. It's with this definition in mind when I made that statement, so I thought since Starkiller is a clone, they have the same raw power.

Galen's performance against Sidious is something I'd like to touch on maybe later when I have more time to look at more sources. I won't debate it atm.

I don't know how length of training matters when as you've said, Starkiller has Galen's memories and has presumably been training in Kamino as well. Just wondering, but how much higher do you have Galen over Starkiller?

@Jmanghan
Some of your points have made me think, but I question some of the conjecture you've made about Lord Starkiller. His fight with Ben Kenobi's spirit is a dubious showing to me, I mean when have spirits ever been known to wield lightsabers? When has a force sensitive ever demonstrated the ability to vanquish a spirit by purely using sith lighting? Conventional force attacks seem to be ineffective against spirits, as exhibited in SWTOR. Given the nature of the game as DLC, the fight against Ben's ghost is probably the only showing that's too inconsistent for me to quantify.

I guess his defeat of Ben is a comparable showing to ANH Vader, but given that TFU is legends, ANH Vader was far from his prime to begin with. Toying ESB Luke is diminished by the fact that Luke hadn't even gone to Dagobah at that point.

Unfortunately, debating these characters is just relying too much on assumptions. As Syndi said, we just don't know enough about any them besides Killer and Galen. Its not really assumption tbh, it can be plainly seen on the suit of Galen that there are literally no cybernetics besides the helmet, even if you look on the original Sith Stalker outfit, and not Lord Starkiller.

Luke had to have gone to Dagobah (maybe earlier), because his performance against Lord Starkiller implies some training.

I have to give you that on the Ben's Ghost fight, it did strike me as odd, maybe it depends on how powerful... the lightning is?

Or maybe Ghosts are inconsistent, idk.

He wasn't even going All-Out against Ben, he was distracted by the Falcon, because Luke was his priority, not Ben.