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So pick out any JLA members HH or lower to defeat this Marvel line up.

Marvel team: Let's call them " The New Defenders".

Thor
Surfer
Hyperion
Hulk
Sentry no void
Strange

Vs. The JLA roster of your choice, HH or lower...

Hal
Wally West
Superman
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Captain Marvel

Easy

They can't.

Sentry solos them all.

Superman
Flash
Orion
Atom
Firestorm
WW
Zatanna
Captain Marvel
Captain Atom
Dead man.

Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. Even Sentry, without the Void, would be taken down. Deadman could possess all of them at once.

Its a 6 vs 6 ....

Thor vs Superman (Superman blitzes)
Hyperion vs Flash (Flash blitzes)

With these two down
The six Jla members wear down the marvel team, surfer and sentry will be last to fall and I predict a couple of JLA casualties most likely namely Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman or Hal
But eventually my Jla team pulls through

Originally posted by Facee
Its a 6 vs 6 ....

Never specified, heh.

Superman
Flash
MM
Deadman
Captain Atom
Zatanna.

Atom takes Strange out (magic does not affect him, whereas blasts and punches work on Strange)

Without any magic, Z and Deadman get to work. Deadman possesses Sentry, Hyperion, Thor simultaneously.

Superman and Hulk fight as always. It will take a while. Everyone else dogpiles him if needed (not that its needed).

The others fight Surfer.

JLA win.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never specified, heh.

Superman
Flash
MM
Deadman
Captain Atom
Zatanna.

Atom takes Strange out (magic does not affect him, whereas blasts and punches work on Strange)

Without any magic, Z and Deadman get to work. Deadman possesses Sentry, Hyperion, Thor simultaneously.

Superman and Hulk fight as always. It will take a while. Everyone else dogpiles him if needed (not that its needed).

The others fight Surfer.

JLA win.

Zatanna and Deadman will succeed where Molecule Man failed to ?

Dead man has possessed multiversal entities. On his own. Now he has Z backing him up.

Did MM try to possess him?

Moreover, this is now magic we're talking about, which by definition follows its own rules

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Dead man has possessed multiversal entities.

Which are ?

Scans ?




And ? What will do Zatanna when Strange himself recognized to be unable to handle Sentry?



MM power is far beyond a simple possession by a ghost.



So is the ability to manipulate the reality to a greater extend.

Obsidian
Dr Fate
Flash
Amazingman
Captain Atom


Obsidian possesses the Marvel team and makes them fight each other (like he did to JSA when he turned dark)

Fate teleports Amazingman near Sentry who touches him and absorbs his power (like he did to defeat the galactus knock off)

Flash IMP and dumps intonthe speed force whoever he can get to while Fate BFRs to other dimensions and atom dumps whoever into quantum field (this one is for strange as immune to magic )obsidian BFRs to shadowlands.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Which are ?

Scans ?




And ? What will do Zatanna when Strange himself recognized to be unable to handle Sentry?



MM power is far beyond a simple possession by a ghost.



So is the ability to manipulate the reality to a greater extend.

The Green. He was across all space and time, everywhere at once. In every piece of wood ever.

Strange was on his own. Now, its Z AND Deadman, whilst Deadman has also split and possessed other members to occupy Sentry at the same time (which he has done). I kinda recall the Void was what dealt with MM too? I only recall some black eyes and text, lol.

MM is still based in science, however. And I've seen no evidence that Sentry has ever resisted possession by someone like Deadman. Much less whilst being attacked physically and magically at the same time.

Edit: I also like beatboks.

I dont really consider Deadman (or Constantine, Frankenstein etc) a JLAer, but interesting reading for sure.

Originally posted by riv6672
I dont really consider Deadman (or Constantine, Frankenstein etc) a JLAer, but interesting reading for sure.

A bit of a sneak on my part.

Dead man was made an honourary member of the JLA, pre Flashpoint.

We can always swap out with Obsidian, as per beatboks. Strange is really the best defence against the possessors, but without any telepathic fighters on par with MM, and with Atom there to counter him, team Marvel are a bit limited without magic and TP.

Strange was recently manipulated by Ebony Maw, who like the other members of the Black Order is probably second rate at best.

Thor was manipulated by Honest John, Hyperion was infected by a mind control virus, Hulk was also manipulated by....Ex Nihilo? Or was it the other one?

All very recent occurrences.

Obsidian/Boston could well sit back and have this...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The Green. He was across all space and time, everywhere at once. In every piece of wood ever.

Scans.

+

The wood isn't present everywhere at once in the Universe.



Strange alone is more powerful than Zatanna and Deadman and couldn't do anything to Sentry even he had prep.



Or Sentry can erase the team he is facing immediately.




No. The speech bubbles were white. The Void wouldn't have asked MM to help people as he is pure evil.



Black Eyes aren't significant of the presence of the Void

Void had golden eyes from time to time and Sentry black eyes.

This debate has no place as Robert Reynolds power-set remains the same whatever the shape he takes.

He created a mini-werewolf just after he destroyed Owen without having black eyes which is a feat that even Maestro with the full Iso-Sphere can realize.



MM / RW powers are psionic in nature.
They allow Sentry to achieve whatever he wants to.



Possessing Swamp Thing whom is an avatar of the Green, doesn't make him able to possess Sentry at all.

Deadman couldn't even possess Constantine because his mind is too filthy and you believe that he could possess Sentry even very powerful telepath trying to enter in his mind are possessed by negative energy... And Sentry got a psionic armour in bonus of becoming a Horseman of Death.

http://i.imgur.com/igaZGeR.jpg





Much less whilst being attacked physically and magically at the same time.

That's a common stuff he faced in the past.

The only thing that could stop Sentry is himself.

Molecule Man power is far beyond the one of Lifegiver Galactus and despite that he was swatted like a fly.




Which will come with the same result as Sentry one-shotting everyone or disintegrating the whole team effortlessly.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A bit of a sneak on my part.

Dead man was made an honourary member of the JLA, pre Flashpoint.

We can always swap out with Obsidian, as per beatboks. Strange is really the best defence against the possessors, but without any telepathic fighters on par with MM, and with Atom there to counter him, team Marvel are a bit limited without magic and TP.
I love your evil mind. You always think outside the box.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Scans.

+

The wood isn't present everywhere at once in the Universe.

Don't have scans handy, but if you google his respect thread am sure they will pop up.


Scans of Strange attempting possession?



Scans of Sentry's filthy mind, please. You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

Then post scans. Of him fighting off possession whilst being physicall and magically wailed on. This, really, is the only argument we need to debate on - the rest are red herrings. I've shown that Deadman can possess people (or at least, we all know he can). You need to show Sentry fighting OFF possession.

That's the only thing. Creating werewolves etc are all fine and dandy, but show me him fighting off mystical possession. Easy, right, as its common stuff he's faced in the past?

Originally posted by riv6672
I love your evil mind. You always think outside the box.

Otherwise, I'd be a Hulk or Superman fan.

Yeah right.
1. Obsidian cant be destroyed he is pure void. He tried to kill himself for months. How do you "disintergrate nothing"
2. How does sentry disintegrate somone who has taken his power. Amazingman was able to take the power of overmaster who is Galactus level and vastly over Sentry. Not to mention he can do so from absorbing energy attacks.
3. Obsidian possesses beings thru the darkness within them not psionics. Sentry has a lot of darkness. He has also possessed beings on Strange's level casually.
4. He cN also wrap the void around them and make them disappear withjn its folds like he did the fleet that attacked JLA when he was a memeber.
5. Energy is shown not to destroy cap Atom. When he absoebs too much he just quantum leaps.
6. Fate has shown to be resistant even to reality warping, not to mentio he can also matter manip like MM.
6. Flash can speed steal mak8ng any attack slow as molases and easily dodged or countered. No answer from anyone on marvel team for speed force dump.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Otherwise, I'd be a Hulk or Superman fan.
Owtch!

Still awaiting the scans.

Moreover, I fully believe OP did not mean for DS Sentry to be used...he was easily trans (disposing of one of Marvel's top heralds, Thor, with ease) so the stip for only having HH level JLAers against an obvious trans is spite.

A distinction is usually made for Death Sentry, true.

No DS you leeches.

Considering Sentry can't keep control of his own body...

Flash solos.

HH or below level only..

The JLA will never defeat a team with Sentry in it.

Which Sentry is considered High Herald?

Originally posted by carver9
Which Sentry is considered High Herald?

BattleForums Sentry so the lowballing allows him to be considered far less than Comic Book Sentry whom is nigh-omnipotent.

Character still comes into play.
Csrver, I believe it will be the Sentry who fights Herc evenly. Whose powers can be turned off by Iron Man (the fact of which is spoken with shocked awe). Who beats quinjets up for fun. That one.

And RealityWarper, still awaiting scans of Sentry fighting off magical possession whilst being wailed on by physical high heralds and under magic attack at the same time...

Originally posted by beatboks
Yeah right.

A good point for saying that I'm right.



Based on ? Obsidian is made of Shadows...

http://i.imgur.com/3LhJogM.jpg

"Obsidian is a three-dimensional shadow."



Failing at killing himself doesn't makes him immortal. No limits fallacy, hello.

http://i.imgur.com/mnO5vmC.jpg

Stabbing a shadow... Come on...




a) It's not the way Obsidian is described.

b) He can die.

c) Sentry can manipulate matter and energy (the reality) so disintegrating him isn't a problem.





Rogue couldn't absorb his powers.

The Super-Adaptoid was able to steal the powers of Kubik and he was merely able to emulate Sentry's flying powers and wasn't close to become as powerful as he is before Sentry wrecked him with his psionic powers.

Absorbing-Man was able to absorb a fragment of a Cosmic Cube but Sentry's power was too much for him...

Galactus isn't vastly over Sentry, that's the other way around.

Iron Man said that Sentry has "unlimited psionic powers" and that he could warp the reality and give us another House of M to deal with.

He swated Molecule Man like a fly, proving that he is definitely more powerful than this Omniversal-character able to erase Lifegiver Galactus with a tought.




Good luck to control an Horseman of Death whom see Death as a beautiful thing and doesn't care hurting people.

People can't play with Sentry's mind without his consent.

Sentry can manipulate Darkness too.

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/37/1473972832-4645697-sentrydarknessagents-of-atlas-003-pg-22.jpg

By the way, before Sentry become the Horseman of Death he was able to easily beat the Void and the Void can show people their own Darkness, this had no effect on Sentry.

That's what the touch of the Void did to Hulk:

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/37/1473973166-4078391-5167118482-sentr.jpg

Sentry didn't give a shit, kicked his ass and tossed him in the Sun.

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/37/1473973203-3235961-6.jpg

That's one possible fate for Obsidian but disintegrating him is fun too.





Sentry was totally unaffected by Molecule Man's reality warping and disintegrated him.



That's self-BFR which doesn't matter because he will be disintegrated.

I meant it in the sense erased from existence via reality warping.



Yeah sure. Now Dr Fate is as powerful as MM...

His best feat is to tangle with the Spectre...

Sentry eat him for breakfast.



1) Flash can't steal the kinetic energy of people not from the DC Universe because they don't move using the Speed Force.


http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/37/1473973798-nospeedforcenospeedsteal.jpg

2) Flash get tagged on a daily basis by a Giant Gorilla whom is slower than most street-levelers in Marvel (all of them ! XD)

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/37/1473973727-e2xbah2-imgur.jpg


3) Flash couldn't Speed Force Dump Superboy-Prime on his own and you believe he stands a chance against Sentry alone or any member of the team ?

http://i.imgur.com/6cZGSA5.png

A) Flash has zero chance to do anything to Sentry, not even moving him into the Speed Force. He will get killed right off the bat or laughed away.

B) Many members of the Avengers can move from Dimension to Dimension easily so the Speed Force Dump isn't an High-End move like you pretend he is: Thor, Dr Strange and many other can escape the Speed Force in a few moments.

C) Flash durability is too low when he isn't running at full capacity and he will get down very easily.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And RealityWarper, still awaiting scans of Sentry fighting off magical possession whilst being wailed on by physical high heralds and under magic attack at the same time...

A) Scans of the team resisting Molecule Manipulation / Reality Warping more powerful than Molecule Man.

B) The only way people had to enter into Sentry's mind was to politely ask him to do it, even telepaths as powerful as Nate Grey recognized their inferiority and Nate has been show to possess people...

Molecule Man was able to mess-up with Osborn's mind by playing with his molecules thus he was completely unable to affect Sentry with his reality warping powers once Sentry understood his powers have the same nature.

C) Sentry is completely immune to the effect of physical attacks.




D) Iron Man's power drainer is hardly an argument. He knew he could use it since Civil War and he knew it wasn't a mean to take Sentry down for good or he could have used it during Siege.

The only reason why it worked on Sentry at this moment was because he saw himself as a mutate, thus making himself able to be affected by the power drainer.

Now Sentry knows that his body is just a shell and that people see him the way he wants them to see him.

That power drainer will never work again.

Its not DS Sentry. OP has clarified. So whatever Sentry now knows, is inadmissible.

Speed Force works on Marvel characters as well, read the forum rules.

Flash works at full capacity, so using Grodd is against the rules. Flash is even mentioned specifically as an example.

If the Sentry you use is really greater than Galactus, then you should report this thread for being spite.

So rather than provide proof, your argument is na uh, you prove? Ok.

I just noticed Jay hat was capable of blocking Primes hest vision. That's a topic for another thread.

Jay is protected by the Speed Force, as are his clothes (otherwise, his shoes would burn off)

Flash 101, carver.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Its not DS Sentry. OP has clarified. So whatever Sentry now knows, is inadmissible.

His powers remains the same.

So far you are trying to avoid posting what I've asked.



So the fundamental nature of a power cna be changed via forum rules now ? Ok.

Sentry doesn't move using the Speed Force so Flash can't speed steal him.



So are all characters in that thread.



Being at full capacity doesn't makes Flash untouchable.

This doesn't improves Flash fighting skills.



Nice for him



That's the Sentry Marvel uses, especially fighting at full capacity.

Sentry casually and effortlessly erased Molecule Man, at full capacity that's beyond spite.



Still waiting for you to post the scans that I've asked.

All of your possession stuff was already countered.

The Void can possess people and is far more powerful than Obsidian, he can't possess Sentry.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Jay is protected by the Speed Force, as are his clothes (otherwise, his shoes would burn off)

Flash 101, carver.

I lolef

It sounds like you don't get how Speed Steal works Realitywarper. You don't need to be connected to the Speed force in order for someone to steal your speed look at Jay Garrick doing it to Superman. All you need is momentum.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
It sounds like you don't get how Speed Steal works Realitywarper. You don't need to be connected to the Speed force in order for someone to steal your speed

I completely understand how it works.

I understand that Sentry being not powered by the Speed Force will make Flash unable to speed steal Sentry, moreover Sentry is said by Osborn's agents in storming Asgard to have limitless speed.





You can handwave the scan all you want, Jay said that a being not powered by the speed force can't be speed stolen which is the case with Sentry.

None of the JLA members can deal with Sentry's massive powers over reality and that's all that matters.

Superman punches him out of existence.

Originally posted by Zack M
Superman punches him out of existence.


Eeeerrrf.

I wanted to write "Superman" but my keyboard wrote "Sentry" instead.

I apologize.

No worries. Superman it is!

Originally posted by RealityWarper
His powers remains the same.

So far you are trying to avoid posting what I've asked.



So the fundamental nature of a power cna be changed via forum rules now ? Ok.

Sentry doesn't move using the Speed Force so Flash can't speed steal him.



So are all characters in that thread.



Being at full capacity doesn't makes Flash untouchable.

This doesn't improves Flash fighting skills.



Nice for him



That's the Sentry Marvel uses, especially fighting at full capacity.

Sentry casually and effortlessly erased Molecule Man, at full capacity that's beyond spite.



Still waiting for you to post the scans that I've asked.

All of your possession stuff was already countered.

The Void can possess people and is far more powerful than Obsidian, he can't possess Sentry.

Powers remain the same, but they are also tied to his character and mindset.

Avoiding you? I asked for scans of Sentry first....you can hardly accuse me of ducking the q when you try to muddy it with your own accusations.

Guillotine blades and bullets don't tap into the speed force either; Flash does it all the same. He steals momentum.

You were the one who said Sentry has casually faced attacks like what he will face here before; I asked for proof, then you suddenly start asking for proof.

And no, Sentry is not at DS Sentry levels. Ask OP to clarify which sentry, if you want.

But logically, if he has asked for no HH level characters, the Defenders cant be above HH either. That surely makes sense to you, no?

PS: Zoom taps into time, not speed. Proof Sentry taps into time everytime he moves, please?

Originally posted by RealityWarper


Based on ? Obsidian is made of Shadows...

http://i.imgur.com/3LhJogM.jpg

"Obsidian is a three-dimensional shadow."

The canon of the character.
Basing an argument on a pre COIE data sheet on Obsidian that is vastly outdated doesn't help your cause.
Obsidian is Vastly more than "a three dimensional shadow".
He's a merger of the power of the shadowlands and the starheart.

Please by all means show me when a mere three dimensional shadow is capable of near omnipresence

http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2693124-everywhere_at_once.jpg

Clearly not as he is "described" in your data sheet.


You want some limits fine

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5436999-1+combined+spec+alan+ans+starman.jpg

It took the combined power of Corrigan Spectre (NOT the weak a$$ later copies) Alan Scot and Starman to shatter Ian Karkull's form. NOT destroy it mind you (because he reformed) but just for a temporary victory.

Obsidian is that power merged with the starheart ( the collection of magic in the universe from a point in time). In short Ian is at most HALF his power (probably vastly less considering Todd casually absorbed him)

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5437004-jsa+%238+-+page+19.jpg

http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5437005-jsa+%238+-+page+20.jpg

As shown here Todd is the embodiment of the shadowlands. A realm of nothing. A realm that predates matter.
http://dcuniverseonline.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowlands

By all means please show me the feats of a mere High Herald level Sentry (as per the threads limits) that can do more damage than say the combined power of Galactus, Dr Strange, and Silver Surfer. Oh sorry destructive power DOUBLE that level.

Since you want to go by that outdated data sheet lets look at one thing on it. It states his power is like that of Shade. This is correct (as it's been stated several times when the two have interacted)

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5437001-3820795-8563225343-38197.jpg

The power of the Shade would be hard for even the Spectre (who has multiversal feats) to beat. No High Herald level version of Sentry is capable of multiversal level feats (because that is trans, not high herald).

Then there is the fact that in Justice Society 26/27 Todd Shielded the JSA brown stone from a spiritual entity that even the Spectre couldn't contain. He did this right up until the combined attacks of the spirits, Alan Scot and an amped Stargirl.

Sufficient to stand up to any high herald going all out.



a) The "description" your using doesn't seem to fit the way the character is portrayed somehow.

b) And yet his history says otherwise. Please tell me why, IF he can die when the Fourth Reich started their actions for the fatherland and managed to develop ways to kill or depower EVERY other hero they instead had to prep and acquire an artifact to contain Obsidian as an egg? I'd also like to know why all they had to do to defeat the Reich was release Obsidian. They had ways of destroying every other character even above high herald bu7t not Todd.



Remind me again which one of these feats apply to a High Herald level Sentry as per the limits set ???

Ohh that's right, NONE. Any Sentry that is above Galactus isn't high herald level as per OP.


Again not a mere High Herald level Sentry. Did you even read the OP??



Where exactly did I say that?? I said he can matter manipulate like MM. The two things are not the same.



Hardly, he lost to Spectre each time. he faired well and held up longer than many but far from his "best feat" The fact is Fate




AHHH, Spectre has multiversal lvel feats. so your telling me that a high herald is no >>> multiversal??




Really?? because he's stolen the speed of people within the DCU who "DONT MOVE USING THE SPEED FORCE" like Superman - WHO DOESN'T


Flash hadn't even truly learned speed force dump then
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111120432/4830573-8992173040-36741.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111159554/3983771-3304356-bfr1.jpg
If he had he wouldn't have needed anyone, JUST HIS mind.



As shown above the only way out of the speed force is Flash. Others with the ability to travel dimensions or break them haven't been able to leave it.

Now I realise your using Sentry at his peak but that isn't the case here. A fact everyone else got.

Originally posted by Facee
So pick out any JLA members HH or lower to defeat this Marvel line up.

Marvel team: Let's call them " The New Defenders".

Thor
Surfer
Hyperion
Hulk
Sentry no void
Strange

Vs. The JLA roster of your choice, HH or lower...

The version of Sentry your trying to use is against the rules.
the rules are pretty clear

Originally posted by RealityWarper
I completely understand how it works.

I understand that Sentry being not powered by the Speed Force will make Flash unable to speed steal Sentry, moreover Sentry is said by Osborn's agents in storming Asgard to have limitless speed.





You can handwave the scan all you want, Jay said that a being not powered by the speed force can't be speed stolen which is the case with Sentry.

None of the JLA members can deal with Sentry's massive powers over reality and that's all that matters.

I think you should read the scan again. They can't speed steal Zoom because he doesn't use SPEED. Not because he doesn't use speed force.

http://s673.photobucket.com/user/galanphotos/media/zoom_time.jpg.html

Zoom actually moves at normal speed but on a different time line so everything appears slow to him and he fast to everyone else.
He could stand still and be faster than Flash, hence why they can't steal his speed, he has none.

Stop including the Sentry in hero fights. Even with the 'no Void' stipulation, no one really knows how powerful he would be.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Stop including the Sentry in hero fights. Even with the 'no Void' stipulation, no one really knows how powerful he would be.

Lol we do know how powerful he is. Somewhere between high herald and trans. The problem is we have trolls using fanfic to debate instead of shit that happens in comics

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PS: Zoom taps into time, not speed. Proof Sentry taps into time everytime he moves, please?

My statement isn't that Sentry taps into time.

Sentry taps into everything BUT the Speed Force to move, which is essential for Flash to drain him of his speed.

Sentry doesn't tap into the Speedforce as it's exclusive for DC so Flash has no ways to drain him.

He has limitless speed which makes him impossible to drain.

He is too powerful for Flash to drain.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
My statement isn't that Sentry taps into time.

Sentry taps into everything BUT the Speed Force to move, which is essential for Flash to drain him of his speed.

Sentry doesn't tap into the Speedforce as it's exclusive for DC so Flash has no ways to drain him.
That's not how this forum works

Originally posted by RealityWarper
He has limitless speed which makes him impossible to drain. Prove it

Originally posted by RealityWarper
He is too powerful for Flash to drain. Prove it. Also I don't recall this ever having happened before.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Powers remain the same, but they are also tied to his character and mindset.

And it was Sentry whom destroyed Molecule Man, not Void so except if you can show me a crazy Sentry with Dark Speech Bubbles trying to kill everything and everyone your fanfic never happened.




As far as I know the Speed Force encompasses everything in the DC Universe, that's why the Flashes can run everywhere at crazy speeds and that's why Flash is as fast as any human in the Marvel Universe, powerless.

That matters here too because whatever you try it, Sentry doesn't use the speedforce to speed-up which your point completely moot.



The Void possess people casually, which means that Sentry whom fight him all the time is immune to that power.



Sentry has no Void here which means that he is stable which that he is at the same power-level.

The only difference between a stable Sentry and DS Sentry is a complete absence of morals.




English please.

No one here should be higher than HH. Take all characters at a HH power level. Any character that is higher than HH will be replaced.

Originally posted by beatboks
The canon of the character.
Basing an argument on a pre COIE data sheet on Obsidian that is vastly outdated doesn't help your cause.
Obsidian is Vastly more than "a three dimensional shadow".
He's a merger of the power of the shadowlands and the starheart.

Yeah. He is still a 3 dimensional shadow.




He is a 3D shadow and is moving in the shadows, that's not true omnipresence.




It just need a thought to Sentry to get rid of him.




Citing his power-source doesn't change the fact that he is a f****** 3D shadow.



Sentry isn't "an herald-level character".
As said by Tony Stark in "Civil War: Battle Damage Report" and "Civil War Files" he is capable of creating a new House of M and he has unlimited psionic power.

Show me Galactus, Dr Strange or Silver Surfer being mentioned to approaching at least that power.





it's not outdated, maybe you don't understand what you are reading:

Obsidian's power is compared to the one of an Elemental of Darkness AKA a fraging 3D shadow.




Nice Argumentum ad Verbosium, I only believed theonewhoknows to be capable of it. XD

Sentry power-level is described as infinite and literally confirmed by Jenkins AND Bendis whom are authorities at Marvel about the character.

In short there is 3 official sources confirming that Sentry's power-level is unlimited:

*One from the comic books as said by Tony Stark whom is valid authority in the comics and one of the greatest scientist in the Marvel Universe.*

*Two authorities coming from Marvel itself as the creator of the character and his main writer those last years.*







Spectre is a weakling compared to Sentry or Molecule Man, using him as "being incapable to beat Obsidian" isn't an argument.





Nice for them, really.





It doesn't.

It's an Elemental of Darkness AKA a 3D shadow.



That's not an argument again.

Show me Obsidian resisting a reality manipulation at Sentry's level AKA superior to the Omniversal Molecule Man's reality manipulation and just stop that Argumentum Ad Verbosium.






Sentry isn't an "high herald-level character" so the OP have to chose another TEAM for the JSA to deal with.




"High Herald level" Sentry doesn't exist so the OP will chose another character for his thread.

Lowballing is against the rules so you and the OP are wrong lowballing the Sentry.





The comparison is completely erroneous.

Comparing Dr Fate and Dr Strange would have been accurate.

It's like saying that RJ Mite can lift weight like Arnold Schwarzenegger.




I've never said that he wins but tangle I obviously means that he fought the Spectre.




I mean that Sentry is not as weak as you are making him.

Stop lowballing.






The Speed Force is all-encompassing in the DCNU.




1) Grodd was powered by the Speed Force

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/149056/4561056-grodd+speed+force.jpg


2) Barry & Co had to PUSH Super Emoboyprime to have a chance to dump him.

a stable Sentry can easily block Exitar so:

A) He would have to push Sentry harder than that to have a chance to dump him.

B) Sentry can instantly disintegrate Flash with thought while he is trying to do it.



Sentry shown that he can teleport and move through dimensions like the Microverse as he found his way out on his own.

This doesn't matter as the speed force dump is useless against him and the whole team will be disintegrated with a thought.




I'm using Sentry at his normal power-levels as he is stable.

Stable no void so he has limitless power-levels.

A thing that everyone got wrong.





Nope.

The OP and you are trying to make the Sentry pass for an Herald which is lowballing and clearly against the rules.

Originally posted by Cogito
That's not how this forum works

Prove it

Prove it. Also I don't recall this ever having happened before.

That is how the Speed Force and the Speed Steal works.

Originally posted by Facee
No one here should be higher than HH. Take all characters at a HH power level. Any character that is higher than HH will be replaced.

Exactly.

The OP could use Hulk, Hyperion or Thor.

Using Sentry and stating that he is herald-level when Marvel itself clearly said that he has limitless power-level is lowballing and against the rules.

Originally posted by beatboks
I think you should read the scan again. They can't speed steal Zoom because he doesn't use SPEED. Not because he doesn't use speed force.

http://s673.photobucket.com/user/galanphotos/media/zoom_time.jpg.html

Zoom actually moves at normal speed but on a different time line so everything appears slow to him and he fast to everyone else.
He could stand still and be faster than Flash, hence why they can't steal his speed, he has none.

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/37/1473973798-nospeedforcenospeedsteal.jpg

It is clearly stated that they can't steal his kinetic energy because he is using Time instead of the Speed Force.

Thor
Surfer
Hyperion
Hulk
Sentry no void
Strange

Vs.

Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson)
Superman
Shazam
Wonder Woman
The Martian Manhunter
Orion

Without getting silly, that's about the toughest 6-man JLA line-up you are gonna get. And depending which methodology you use to rate the fight, it's pretty competitive, assuming we have some kind of arbitrary cap on the Sentry. Runner up DC possibilities might be Power Girl or Supergirl, depending on whether they are considered JLA. Captain Atom has a wide variety of portrayals, and some might be considered powerful enough to merit inclusion. But I don't recall any of those portrayals of Cap being on the JLA. Besides, in terms of how they ranked in the comics hierarchy, I think the more Doctor Manhattan-ish portrayals of Captain Atom may be overrated, though I imagine they get some respect here.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
That is how the Speed Force and the Speed Steal works.

I don't need you to reiterate your point, I want you to prove it.

And per forum rules, powers work even if the mechanism of action is specific to their own universe/company

Originally posted by Cogito
I don't need you to reiterate your point, I want you to prove it.

I don't have to prove that Sentry use the Speed Force because he doesn't use it.

It's part of the DC Universe.





And the forum rule doesn't contradict the fact that Flash can only speed steal beings powered by the speed force which isn't the case with Sentry.

Or giving a weakness to a character through bias is part of the forum rules too ?

In that case, speed steal never works because all battles take place in a neutral universe where there is no Speed Force.

In fact, Flash is human in all battles because there is no speed force in a neutral universe.

kinda

I never mentioned or brought up Sentry

Not a fan of the guy..


I post in the op the team for Marvel already

Let's replace Sentry with BRB.

Originally posted by Facee
Let's replace Sentry with BRB.

Thanks OP. Guess some people can't understand.

RealityWarper, my point was that everyone in the thread needs to be HH or lower.

Capping Sentry isn't lowballing, just because he's your pet character. Its the stips of the thread. If you don't like it, don't post, simples. Facee (OP) already clarified several times he was using HH level guys. And I (and others) clarified for you too, in plain English.

That said, I'll put a team up in a mo.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thanks OP. Guess some people can't understand.

RealityWarper, my point was that everyone in the thread needs to be HH or lower.


I perfectly understand that.



Lowering the power of a character is exactly what lowballing is. Handwaving his feats is another one.




I'm objective.




A point had to be made about Sentry's power-level which I did.



Sentry isn't a HH character (nor lower than that) thus he doesn't belong to that thread.

A bad habit has been taken on many forums because Sentry being a character looking like Superman and nothing alike him people hate him and say all sort of inaccurate things about him.




M'kay.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/37/1473973798-nospeedforcenospeedsteal.jpg

It is clearly stated that they can't steal his kinetic energy because he is using Time instead of the Speed Force.

Thats right. They cant steal kinetic energy because he doesnt have any.
He moves thru time not space, not kinetic.

FYI speed force ISNT all encompasing in the DCU. It was created by Flash gaining his speed.. others in the DCU have super speed and dont get it from the speed force .Superman is one and its been stated so several times, flash has stolen Supes speed. Erroneous argument.

If Obsidian is a "3d" shadow as you keep saying why is he not limited to 3d. Most of the scans i showed you were 2d or abstract form. Obsidian can for example touch others while in a form that cant be touched. His form is his will.

Sentry has showings at high herald level. Otherwise things like being matched by Herc arent possible. When a battle list characters who have showings at a level below their peak that fit within the limits set for a forum debate that is what we use. Funny how everyone else got that. In this battle Strange isnt Classic Level, Thor isnt odin force, hulk isnt wb or ww level. All those were possibilities but cant be applied because the level was set.

Originally posted by beatboks
Thats right. They cant steal kinetic energy because he doesnt have any.
He moves thru time not space, not kinetic.

Even he is fuelled he produces kinetic energy aka mechanical energy.

When he moves he moves through space as well, not just time... He is just fast forwarding to move faster...

They can't steal his kinetic energy because he isn't linked to the Speed Force in any way.




http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/37/1474067022-speedforceallencompassing.jpg

It is all-encompassing.




Whatever you think, he is a "living shadow".
That's all that matters.




When a character avoid using his powers at their fullest it doesn't make him less powerful.




Considering the fact that Sentry can swat effortlessly beings like Molecule Man through reality warping, every attempt at showing him doing less than that in a fight he is supposed to fight at full capacity is clearly an attempt at lowballing the character.



"Everyone else" got that they are lowballing on purpose.





Dr Strange is older and more powerful than he was before.

For Marvel there is no "classic Dr Strange" whom is a forum invention.



According to Pak he is inferior to the Green Skaar whom depowered himself fighting a Sentry at his weakest state.



Yeah, the problem with that your whole argument is fallacious.

It is fallacious because you are here showing different versions of characters:

Classic Dr Strange doesn't exist.

OdinForce Thor is Thor powered with the Odin Force.

Hulk during WWH is the Green Scar whom is a different Hulk as it is how Hulk's different personalities dues to his dissociative identity disorder thus being a different character.

None of the description of those characters fits with the Sentry whom is an unique character aka Robert Reynolds shaping himself differently according to his schizophrenia but his power-set, reality manipulation, and power-level, limitless, doesn't change, except when he is weakened by his agoraphobia which doesn't change his power-set.

Do you consider different versions of Morph when he changes his shape ? Nope.

There is no reasons to do the same thing with Sentry.






That's called lowballing.

Omac
Blue Devil
Plastic Man
Amazing Man
Orion
Firestorm (Raymond)

For the purposes of threads, the Flash has full access to his powers in threads. That means speed-stealing unless the other character has a way around it. You don't have to be speed-forcey for him to mess with your speed/inertia in DC, so you wouldn't need to be in this weird neutral universe we have for fights either.

Opinion wise the Jay Garrick scan that realitywarper brought up was a really good mention. I don't think all writers follow the speed force logic but it atleast supports his point.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Opinion wise the Jay Garrick scan that realitywarper brought up was a really good mention. I don't think all writers follow the speed force logic but it atleast supports his point.

They don't, but even that scan is open to interpretation.

like beatboks said, what happened with Zoom doesn't really apply here. Speed stealing works on kinetic energy. Inertia. if you don't have any, they can't steal it.

Like you said though, shit ain't consistent at all.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Opinion wise the Jay Garrick scan that realitywarper brought up was a really good mention. I don't think all writers follow the speed force logic but it atleast supports his point.

It doesn't, because Zoom specifically doesn't use the speed force or move through space, he manipulates time.

As has been mentioned, speed steal has worked on both people and inanimate objects who don't tap into the speed force. Zoom just works differently...

Now that THAT nonsense is over....

I think I'll stick with my team to beat the New Defenders!

Originally posted by -Pr-
For the purposes of threads, the Flash has full access to his powers in threads. That means speed-stealing unless the other character has a way around it. You don't have to be speed-forcey for him to mess with your speed/inertia in DC, so you wouldn't need to be in this weird neutral universe we have for fights either. And per the rules:
Originally posted by Digi
Debating Format Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.


So according to some people, Flash can't steal speed despite numerous showing otherwise. Lol, nice try. We don't gimp characters just because pro-Marvel people don't like what a DC character can do, and vice versa. Flash has access to his powers anywhere for this forum.