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On sites like kmc and cv you sometimes see people with different interpretations of raw power, mastery and knowledge and how they affect each other.

What are your interpretations of them and what do you think is the correct one ?

Raw power. Essentially the devastation you're capable of unleashing through the Force. Mastery. Your ability to employ complicated or advanced applications of a certain power. Knowledge. The amount of Force abilities you know.

It's pretty simple tbh.

They all factor into each other indirectly though, similarly to how physical fitness affects one's bladework. For example, mastery also factors in to how much of your raw power you can bring to bear at will, and how effectively it's applied.

The above is also true. They all affect each other to a certain degree.

Raw power is potential, mastery is control and knowledge is knowledge.

I've always thought 'potential' was the worst and most misleading way to put it.

Raw power isn't nessecarily potential tbh...

Potential is the raw power that you could one day attain. It doesn't mean you're capable of employing your raw power at its full potential before you've reached it.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I've always thought 'potential' was the worst and most misleading way to put it.

Potential is probably the best way to put it because it sounds like what it is. A power level you could one day achieve but that you just don't possess at the current moment.

What a Force user could "potentially" be is the result of a mixture of power, skill, mastery, knowledge, experience, and etc.; I have no problem with that concept in a general sense. What I take issue with is how it's used, as a synonym of raw power, as above. I never really bought into the idea that Force users became more powerful in the literal sense over the course of their careers except in the case of anomalies like Sarasu Taalon. Under the right circumstances, I think even a barely trained neophyte could bring their full power to bear, albeit not as effectively as they could with a more practiced hand. It's not like pre-master Force users have a reserve of power that's sealed off to them, but rather that they're simply not as effective as they could be using the power at their disposal.

I always defined "raw power" as the amount of power one can bear any given moment, even if it isn't per-se "polished". A 11 year old Anakin has more "potential" than his adult Vader self, but he doesn't have more "raw power".

Conversely, Kyp Durron has more raw power than, lets say, a Darth Vader, but his mastery isn't quote on Vader level, and combatively speaking, he prolly can't use it as adroitly as Vader either.

That's just the thing; 11 year old Anakin is more powerful than Darth Vader, he just doesn't know how to effectively put that power to use like Vader does. It's not like he could become more powerful, he already is. The issue is that he's infinitely less masterful and knowledgeable, which, as I said before, factors into his output.

^^
That's a fair enough exegesis.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
What a Force user could "potentially" be is the result of a mixture of power, skill, mastery, knowledge, experience, and etc.; I have no problem with that concept in a general sense. What I take issue with is how it's used, as a synonym of raw power, as above. I never really bought into the idea that Force users became more powerful in the literal sense over the course of their careers except in the case of anomalies like Sarasu Taalon. Under the right circumstances, I think even a barely trained neophyte could bring their full power to bear, albeit not as effectively as they could with a more practiced hand. It's not like pre-master Force users have a reserve of power that's sealed off to them, but rather that they're simply not as effective as they could be using the power at their disposal.

I disagree. Multiple novels throughout the EU contradict this stance most notably in TFU where Galen notes his upper limit increases the more he pushes at the bounds of what he's capable of at the time.

I don't know what you're on about. Galen rekt Vader as a toddler. As far as I can tell it just went downhill from there.

Fair point.

@NewGuy01

Exactly. How powerful one is, is defined at birth by ones midichorian count and force users just get better over time at bringing their full power to bear.

For example Anakin has more raw power than Yoda but lacks the mastery and knowledge to bring that full power to bear.

Will you say the above is correct?

You just rephrased exactly what he said...

That's why he said "exactly."

Then why is he asking him to confirm something he already knows? :/

Approximately. Although if it were me, I would have made a minor addition to that last line.



Like I mentioned before, I do actually think that a neophyte could bring their full power to bear, under the correct circumstances. Such circumstances could include high-emotion situations (as we've seen with Savage), situations where survival instinct kicks in (as we've seen with Zannah), or situations where there's an atypical amount of time to focus (as we've seen with Kyp).

However, the knowledge and mastery is necessary to be able to perform at 100% capacity consistently, and to use that 100% capacity in an effective manner (i.e not just releasing energy aimlessly).

That's just nitpicking, though. You essentially have the right idea, as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Then why is he asking him to confirm something he already knows? :/

No i asked him to known if he fully agreed with what i said. I wasn't completely sure if he agreed with me.

@NewGuy01

I excluded rare circumstances like getting a rage boost. But yeah i agree fully with what you said.

How do I quote multiple people ?

Do it manually.

Everyone's wrong. We all know Mustafar made Vader more powerful.

Raw Power: Directly correlates with potential, it's the amount of destruction one can cause or one's ability to manipulate the Force immensely without training.

Mastery: The control one attains over their power, allowing them to apply specific amounts of Force energy where needed (large amount, mid amount, small amount depending on task)

Knowledge: The array of powers and techniques one learns.

Raw Power is like IQ and correlates with midichlorian count.

Mastery is how refined you are with the application of the power you have. It is what allows someone like Kenobi or Dooku who possesses far less raw power than Anakin to compete and surpass him. You are able to channel all your energy into one move-set rather than have some of it wasted through outside functions. Some one make an analogy for this.

Knowledge is knowledge. You can have a lot of it and still lose against someone with more raw power than you.

Pretty much agreed with the thread consensus. Raw power is pre-determined, it's just that through knowledge and mastery (and generally as you age) you learn to wield more of that raw power, so it becomes less of a potential thing and more of genuine power.

I'm curious to see how people would respond to this question now.

I disagree with the concensus, actually. I think it makes more sense that the amount of power you have changes throughout the course of your life. Mastery, or at least part of it, is learning to be more in tune with the force. Which allows you to harness more power.

I know there's no right answer, because different authors have different ideas, but this could be a great thread to post examples.

Raw Power:
--Grows--

Galen Marek was already mentioned as an example
Vitiate "shedding limitations"
Luke
Darth Krayt

--Stays the same--

Anakin as a child was said to be like fire. He had trouble meditating and was already incredibly powerful. Training only let him direct and aim his power better.
Midichlorians are determined at birth.

Mastery:
--Using power more intelligently--

Sidious was said to use his blade in ways other people overlooked.
Mace Windu unscrewed the droids on Dantooine, younger jedi don't.
Anakin lost to Dooku in Ep II because he rushed into the fight.

--More "One-ness"--

Obi-Wan said that the force controls your actions, so getting "control" over the force wouldn't make much sense.
Darth Malgus fought in such a way that he described it as watching himself fight

Knowledge:
--Makes you stronger--

In "Weapon of a Jedi," Luke tried to pull a lever down to open a door with the force for a number of hours, but couldn't. He managed only to do it when he let the Force tell him what to do, rather than trying to reach out and pull the lever.

--Helps you understand/interpret the force better--

In Vision of the Future, the Aing Tii were said to believe in a "Spectrum of the force" rather than the light and the dark side.
Jocasta Nu, while being incredibly knowledgable, was not very powerful

--Knowing more abilities--

Sidious was said to be able to create abilities on a whim