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Top 1, top 3, top 5, random mentions, whatever. You decide what "failure" is. Persons who were failures for their rank? Persons who failed in everything they did? Persons who accomplished incredible things that turned to be pointless and failure too? Great guys whose campaigns turned out to be other failures?

Here are my top 10 epic failures in SW.

1. Darth Tenebrous - this list can't exist without him. If someone is the definition of a failure, it's Tenebrous. His greatest accomplishment, the manipulation of maxi-chlorians, turned out to be a useless failure that damned him for eternity. His supposedly magnificent Force Sense demonstrated itself as nothing but a failure. His passion for lightsaber dueling and knowing everything about what Plagueis was taught didn't allow him to prepare Venamis to beat him despite Venamis being comparable physically. Supposedly inhumanly intelligent, he was retarded enough to go from slurring at Plagueis to admiring him and slurring again within just three pages.

2. Revan - while Tenebrous is not much of a serious character, and more like an utter failure that's hard to be taken seriously, Revan's "failure" is more tragic and dramatic. Despite being incredible in everything, he failed at everything in life. He saved the Republic from the Mandalorians, only to fall to Vitiate and start destroying the Republic. Trying to find Vitiate, he got captured and all his power couldn't help him in that situation. Trying to assassinate Vitiate, he got imprisoned for 300 years. Foundry was a failure. Then he even helped Vitiate.

3. Darth Maul - definitely not a failure as a person. Maul is the guy who pushed forward forever, never stopped, despite all the shit that happened to him. He and Revan both suffered no mental hindrances (except retarded SOR Revan) and were as strong as person can be, but their lifes turned out to be failures. Got abandoned by his master, got beaten up by him when he did his best to return to power just because his master found a new student. Had his brother killed by a being none bar Yoda could fight. Had his mother killed after a great plan for revenge. Became a hopeless exile trying to murder Vader, but failed there too.

4. Yoda - he spent his entire lifespan when the Rule of Two grew. The Order was basically his for few hundred years, and during these hundreds of years, the Sith created the perfect plan to destroy his Order, and he could do nothing about it.

5. Count Dooku - cuck. What happened to him in the end turned out to prove Dooku as the ultimate cuck.

6. Anakin Skywalker - mental wreck and an idiot who deserved all of his tragic fate. In RotJ, I always thought Vader was the tragic guy who got lured to the Dark Side. He wasn't, he didn't fall into some grand manipulation. He was played like a dumb child and deserved all he got.

7. Darth Zannah - fight in the stone prison is enough to deem her the true failure.

8. Darth Wyyrlok III - he thought he killed his master and gained power, but the killed guy returned and humiliated him. He couldn't gather the support of any truly meaningful Sith. He was a total failure.

9. Agen Kolar - thought to be one of the greatest swordsmen and him+Windu > any Sith Lord they would face. Died in one strike, never mentioned again.

10. Rahm Kota - the guy's story is getting his ass kicked. Getting his ass kicked by Galen, falling into algohul, getting destroyed by Vader, getting destroyed by Palpatine, then preventing Galen from killing the damned Emperor, having Galen killed, running away helplessly, getting tired to death in the arena, getting his ass kicked by Boba Fett.

Anakin is the biggest failure ever, just an absolute dickhead.
Yoda is really up there, just an arrogant little piece of shit.
Maul is far from a failure tho

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Anakin is the biggest failure ever, just an absolute dickhead.
Yoda is really up there, just an arrogant little piece of shit.
Maul is far from a failure tho

Yeah, Maul is one of the most incredible characters in terms of willpower. Just his live and all he touched were failures.

And Agen wasn't a failure lol. Getting killed by Sidious is hardly something to hold against him. Had Sheev gone straight at Fisto, he too would be dead in one shot

Folks getting roasted in this thread.

To be fair Maul was always chasing impossible goals. Attempting to defeat Sidious with a nightmother is bold and he did pretty well in capturing Grievous and Dooku. His lapses in combat are embarrassing but that's Filoni's fault and can hardly be attributed to failure on the grand scale.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Folks getting roasted in this thread.

I think I covered everyone's favs

Your list is cancer, as as Bane isn't included here

Originally posted by JKBart
4. Yoda - he spent his entire lifespan when the Rule of Two grew. The Order was basically his for few hundred years, and during these hundreds of years, the Sith created the perfect plan to destroy his Order, and he could do nothing about it.


Deep

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
To be fair Maul was always chasing impossible goals. Attempting to defeat Sidious with a nightmother is bold and he did pretty well in capturing Grievous and Dooku. His lapses in combat are embarrassing but that's Filoni's fault and can hardly be attributed to failure on the grand scale. Yeah Maul has had some legit successes, but ultimately ended in failure due to powers beyond his control. As far as personal failings go he has few.

Kyp Durron.

No Jacen?

Revan and Maul. Barts list is pretty spot on.

Originally posted by Azronger
Kyp Durron.
Yeah, so sad it is. He never had a gf, or?

@Ching No Jacen. Maybe Exar, tho.

Exar was not. He didn't have enough time, simple as that.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Exar was not. He didn't have enough time, simple as that.
He was unlucky. As was Maul/Dooku/etc. And he missed Ulic. Lol.

How dare you speak his name, Ulic is a legend.

Ulic is awesome, but Exar couldn't hold him as friend, lol.

Coz Exar is a prick.

Yeah. Exar is a cool loser

Biggest failures for me would be: #1 Anakin Skywalker / #2 Count Dooku / #3 Revan / #4 Darth Malak / #5 Yoda

Why isn't Yoda higher Beni.

He redeemed himself in small ways by training Luke tbh.

Maul always reminds me of that Ecclesiastes quote:
When you think about it, his potential was truly amazing. Even with is body(and potential) cut in half while he was barely out of his 20s and after spending a decade as a mad man, in a very short time he was still able to rival someone like Dooku, who was among the biggest prodigies the Jedi ever saw, a man with a lifetime of experience as a Force user.

Imagine how strong Maul would have been with his body whole and another decade of being Sidious' apprentice under his belt.

I doubt even "zone Anakin" could have taken him.

Oh, talking about someone's potential and bringing up enraged Anakin is always going to be invalid.

Originally posted by JKBart
Oh, talking about someone's potential and bringing up enraged Anakin is always going to be invalid.

Maul and Revan.

Edit: Grievous as well.

Originally posted by JKBart
Oh, talking about someone's potential and bringing up enraged Anakin is always going to be invalid.
Perhaps you're right.

Though the whole concept of "zone Anakin" came exclusively from Stover, and as good as the novelization was, he was very prone to exaggeration and hyperbole.

Sidious was an event horizon and a black whole, Yoda was a fountain of light, Dooku summoned power from the entire universe, Mace was a superconductive loop etc.

All those things never had any basis in the movies. Anakin got enraged and beat Dooku, but that's all that happened. He didn't become some mythic unbeatable warrior(as his later fight with Kenobi proved).

Just like Mace showed extraordinary resilience in deflecting Sidious' lightning, but that's all. He didn't became a complicated metaphysical deux ex machina against Dark side users.

Yeah, Maul never got near his full potential. In the force at least. Without augmentation at a young age he was moving faster than people could see but with augmentation he gets beaten by Kanan Jarrus? Using that, he should be able to speed blitz low level knights like Kanan with the force... Filoni is disappointing

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Yeah, Maul never got near his full potential. In the force at least. Without augmentation at a young age he was moving faster than people could see but with augmentation he gets beaten by Kanan Jarrus? Using that, he should be able to speed blitz low level knights like Kanan with the force... Filoni is disappointing

First problem, mixing Canon and Legends. Rebels is strictly a Canon source, it isn't mixing with Legends material.

Plus the Canon is turning characters around clearly anyway.

Sorry Zen

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
It should still be somewhat taken into consideration.

No it shouldn't. At this point, it's little more than glorified fan fiction.

Why are you apologizing?

All I'm saying is, is that Rebels isn't mixing Legends material as it is strictly Canon material. So you can't really bring up Maul's younger days, when there hasn't been anything regarding those days in Canon, because this is what Rebels is following, it isn't some weird hybrid Canon/Legends thing like TCW is...(ugh that still annoys me.)

Kill Filoni and remove all clips from TCW/Rebels on the net? Then start a TV Series about the Exar Kun War with some intelligent people in charge. Solved

Originally posted by Unbowed
Maul always reminds me of that Ecclesiastes quote:
When you think about it, his potential was truly amazing. Even with is body(and potential) cut in half while he was barely out of his 20s and after spending a decade as a mad man, in a very short time he was still able to rival someone like Dooku, who was among the biggest prodigies the Jedi ever saw, a man with a lifetime of experience as a Force user.

Imagine how strong Maul would have been with his body whole and another decade of being Sidious' apprentice under his belt.

I doubt even "zone Anakin" could have taken him. Maul was a victim of circumstance yeah, frankly if Sidious hadn't presumed him dead and recovered his body a la Vader the Clone Wars could have been a very different story.

Doubtful. Sidious was already courting Dooku prior to Maul's defeat and had even made Dooku a "Darth". It seems likely that Maul would have been replaced quite soon.

Courting him yes, but he only turned him to the dark side after Maul's death. And there was never any indication Sidious sought to use him as anything more than a pawn.

He was named Darth Tryanus prior to Maul's death... N other words, Sidious had already converted him into a Sith.

According to what source? In Darth Plagueis he still doesn't even know Palpatine is the Sith Lord by the end of TPM. Another source has Palpatine ruminating on the nature of his next apprentice after Maul was killed.

Maul can't even tank a bike explosion, what chance does he have of being Palpatine's succersor? LMAO

Originally posted by Beniboybling
According to what source? In Darth Plagueis he still doesn't even know Palpatine is the Sith Lord by the end of TPM. Another source has Palpatine ruminating on the nature of his next apprentice after Maul was killed.

According to TCW. The Pykes mention they were hired by a man named Darth Tyranus to kill Sifo-dyas and he was killed when Valorum was still Chanceller.

BOOM goes the dinamite

Originally posted by ares834
According to TCW. The Pykes mention they were hired by a man named Darth Tyranus to kill Sifo-dyas and he was killed when Valorum was still Chanceller. Fair a retcon then, however considering that Sidious considered Maul a "loss" where Tyranus was a "proton torpedo", it still seems doubtful Dooku was intended to replace him.

Maul's story is sad and depressing. He is a failure in the sense that he had much potential which was never completely achieved due to Sidious using him as a complete tool and leaving him for dead. A second rate Anakin story.

Yoda is a failure in a way too. An accomplished jedi but he has had his retard moments and allowed his arrogance to cloud his vision and allow order 66 to happen.

Dooku was a complete success as a jedi. He's only seen as a failure by some for being ultimately deceived by Sidious and treated like a tool in the end.

Anakin is a failure, but I sympathize with him the most out of any character. With all the trauma he went through as a child and teenage years it's not surprising that he turned out how he did. So much potential ultimately wasted. A tragedy.

Maul is a success and why so many of you see him as a failure frankly disturbs me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fair a retcon then, however considering that Sidious considered Maul a "loss" where Tyranus was a "proton torpedo", it still seems doubtful Dooku was intended to replace him.

That analogy's always used out of context, lol. Maul was a loss because Palpatine didn't plan for his demise in TPM and had more in store for him, whereas Dooku's death in RotS was indeed planned out by Sidious, who had expended Dooku's usefulness.

Exactly, Sidious had more plans for him, or rather he didn't plan to replace him. If Tyranus had really been his successor then Maul's death would have been convenient, not a loss.

Nice bit of Maul appreciation happening rn. I love it

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exactly, Sidious had more plans for him, or rather he didn't plan to replace him. If Tyranus had really been his successor then Maul's death would have been convenient, not a loss.

Because Sidious wasn't ready for his loss, lol. He was considering replacing Maul with Tyranus but hadn't even remotely finalized anything when Maul was suddenly taken from him.

He was ready for Tyranus' death on the other hand, since he had already spent the course of the war manipulating Anakin into that perfect position, and Dooku had already done what Palpatine needed him to do. Had Tyranus died prematurely like Maul, Sidious would also call him a "loss".

Not to mention Palpatine took Dooku under his wing after learning of Anakin, whose immense potential made him a natural replacement for whoever Palpatine's apprentice was (had Maul been the apprentice then, he'd be replaced too). When Palpatine found Maul, such things weren't on his mind. At the time, he didn't necessarily have the intention to just train and discard him.

They're entirely separate examples, and Palpatine used and needed them for different things. Not saying that Maul is any more of a failure than the Count. They were failures in their own ways.

Now you're introducing new information, we know that in the Canon Sidious gave Dooku the title of Tyranus prior to Maul's death (and also prior to him meeting Anakin), but that is all I've seen sources for. I'd like to know where your introducing these other conclusions from.

And this particular point isn't to do with who is more of a failure, but whether Sidious planned to replace Maul with Tyranus as his apprentice.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Now you're introducing new information, we know that in the Canon Sidious gave Dooku the title of Tyranus prior to Maul's death (and also prior to him meeting Anakin), but that is all I've seen sources for. I'd like to know where your introducing these other conclusions from.

And this particular point isn't to do with who is more of a failure, but whether Sidious planned to replace Maul with Tyranus as his apprentice.

What new information? And yeah, the TCW retcon certainly throws a wrench in the works.

As for what this point is about, fair enough. But then, you either accept Darth Plagueis, where it isn't concrete, but at least Palpatine mused of having Dooku replace Maul, or TCW, where Palpatine christened Dooku as a Darth even before Maul's demise, as if anticipating his loss (perhaps not so soon, but in the future). After all, even in Canon, Palpatine adheres to the policy of only two Sith at once, as he says to Maul's face in the The Lawless and tells him that being replaced, Maul isn't a Sith anymore. With Season 6 introducing the concept of Tyranus already being a Sith Lord before Maul's demise, it seems like Palpatine decided to replace Maul indeed.

Why Palpatine's remarks in the Vader comic? Writer discrepancies, possibly. But also, there's the chance that Palpatine did intend for Maul to be more but had to prematurely replace him with Tyranus for some reason that may be elaborated upon in the future. There's even the possibility that he was either intending to play off Dooku with Maul at some point, but Maul "died" before that could happen, or he was intending to have them serve him together for a time before he disposed of Maul, but Maul was gone before that could happen and Tyranus wasn't suited for the same sort of jobs that Maul was, hence the "loss".

Of course, this is all just speculation in favor of the Count, but it does tick the boxes, for now. Pro-Maul theories here will have a hard time addressing the fact that Dooku became Darth Tyranus even when Maul was alive.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Anakin is the biggest failure ever, just an absolute dickhead.
Yoda is really up there, just an arrogant little piece of shit.
Maul is far from a failure tho

so damn true

Originally posted by ares834
According to TCW. The Pykes mention they were hired by a man named Darth Tyranus to kill Sifo-dyas and he was killed when Valorum was still Chanceller.

buuut... in ATOC Kenobi specifically states that Dyas was killed ALMOST 10 years prior, its also stated that 10 years has passed since TPM so lets say it took Sidious 6 months or so to convert Dooku, the timeline still lines up with Sidious getting a new apprentice AFTER Maul "died"

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because Sidious wasn't ready for his loss, lol. He was considering replacing Maul with Tyranus but hadn't even remotely finalized anything when Maul was suddenly taken from him.


Its hinted at in Plagueis that Sidious would have kept Maul as a silent assassin and just used Dooku as an ally, he had tentatively earmarked Dooku to be the head of the opposition due to his style, status and great skills as an orator before Maul died

Originally posted by relentless1
buuut... in ATOC Kenobi specifically states that Dyas was killed ALMOST 10 years prior, its also stated that 10 years has passed since TPM so lets say it took Sidious 6 months or so to convert Dooku, the timeline still lines up with Sidious getting a new apprentice AFTER Maul "died"

It's called a retcon.

And technically, AotC might not be precisely ten years after TPM, just approximately (ie. TPM is late 32BBY, AotC early 22BBY, which I think is true, anyway).

Originally posted by relentless1
Its hinted at in Plagueis that Sidious would have kept Maul as a silent assassin and just used Dooku as an ally, he had tentatively earmarked Dooku to be the head of the opposition due to his style, status and great skills as an orator before Maul died

Wolff showed me one of the new Fact Files which had Sidious looking for Dooku to replace Maul, although I couldn't tell you if that refers to him after or before Maul's demise.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What new information? And yeah, the TCW retcon certainly throws a wrench in the works.Yeah I'm looking strictly at Canon here, in which case we don't know the circumstances of Tyranus' induction.I don't recall anywhere in Darth Plagueis where Sidious considered replacing Maul, he only seems to decide to take on Dooku as his apprentice after Maul's death, and partially as a result of that event.

That Sidious appears to adhere to the Rule of Two only lending itself to Maul, not Dooku. Fact remains that it is Maul who holds the title of both Darth and apprentice in TPM. Sidious stating post-TPM that he is no longer his apprentice only suggesting that this remained the case until his untimely death. Dooku on the other hand though referred to as "Tyranus" by the Pykes, they know him only as Tyranus, not Lord or Darth (where he is referred to as 'Lord' by the Kaminoans.) So unlike Maul and much like Venamis, he may well have not been proper Sith Lord at this point.On whose part? More evidence suggests that Dooku becoming a Darth prior to TPM is the discrepancy, given that it's all Canon now, it's arbitrary to decide which is the plot hole and which is not, better to assume none at all.

And that doesn't follow on, if prior to his death Sidious had decided to replace Maul with Dooku, that would make Maul expendable, and therefore his death would not have been considered a loss.

But yeah, there remains every possibility that the reverse would have been true, and that it would have been Dooku rather than Maul that got the chop. Certainly it seems a waste to bump off Maul in favour of Dooku, when Dooku himself was ultimately nothing more than a puppet to be inevitably cast aside.

However Sidious is ever the opportunist driven by practicality, not dogma, in that respect I'm not convinced he's particularly devoted to the Rule of Two philosophy. The real reason he eliminated Maul in TCW was being that the latter had become "a rival". If Maul's devotion had been genuine on the other hand, he may well have found a place in the Grand Plan once more.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah I'm looking strictly at Canon here, in which case we don't know the circumstances of Tyranus' induction.I don't recall anywhere in Darth Plagueis where Sidious considered replacing Maul, he only seems to decide to take on Dooku as his apprentice after Maul's death, and partially as a result of that event.

He does consider Dooku as an ally throughout the novel, but whether it's as a Sith apprentice is unclear. Though even Plagueis considered Dooku as a backup in case Sidious was somehow lost.



Dooku just naming himself Tyranus whilst he was a Jedi makes no sense, lol. The comparison with Venamis is valid, though.



As I said, he could've planned to dispose of Maul, but not so soon. Dooku would've been a loss if he died before the Clone Wars started, even though Sidious had no long-term plans for him.



Fair enough.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He does consider Dooku as an ally throughout the novel, but whether it's as a Sith apprentice is unclear. Though even Plagueis considered Dooku as a backup in case Sidious was somehow lost.Considering that as he is killing Plagueis he expressed his intentions to use Maul as his Sith counterpart essentially in Plagueis place, and considering that even in the epilogue (where Palpatine and Dooku meet) Sidious still appears only to be toying with the idea of using him as an apprentice, I find it unlikely he'd decided to replace him. And that's supported by various Legends sources, for example: And I wasn't at all implying that, evidently he'd defected to the Sith but that doesn't make him a Sith Lord.Potentially, but as I say arguably Maul is more valuable in the long-term. However ultimately with Anakin in play there were both rendered expendable.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Considering that as he is killing Plagueis he expressed his intentions to use Maul as his Sith counterpart essentially in Plagueis place, and considering that even in the epilogue (where Palpatine and Dooku meet) Sidious still appears only to be toying with the idea of using him as an apprentice, I find it unlikely he'd decided to replace him.

Sidious contradicts that in a source released a month later, Book of Sith, where he claims that whilst he'd entertain apprentices, he'd never cultivate a successor.



If we're going off Legends, sources imply that Tyranus was immediately a Darth upon defecting. It's noted that he stole the Dark Holocron from the Temple in preparation for his transformation into Darth Tyranus. Dooku going back to the Temple after he left the Order makes little sense and I believe it's stated by sources that he left the Temple forever or something. It seems as though Dooku wiped Kamino from the Jedi records, stole the Dark Holocron, and killed Sifo-Dyas, all in preparation for becoming a Sith Lord, and all of this being around the time that Maul met his demise on Naboo. So it would seem that Sidious had pre-arranged some of this with Dooku already.

EDIT: The AotC Visual Dictionary implies that Dooku became Darth Tyranus as he pledged loyalty to Sidious. There's nothing that implies that he had to go through specific trials as in Maul's case, and sources (including the one you posted above) make note of Dooku being pre-trained, which was part of why Sidious took him in - there wouldn't be a need to cultivate him in the same way as Maul.



Not necessarily. Maul wasn't who Palpatine needed from AotC-RotS. Agreed on Anakin, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sidious contradicts that in a source released a month later, Book of Sith, where he claims that whilst he'd entertain apprentices, he'd never cultivate a successor.I never said anything about a successor, only that Palpatine planned to use Maul, not Dooku, as his Sith apprentice.But by Legends sources all that happened after Maul's death. Darth Plagueis makes it blatantly clear that Dooku has only just left the Order by the end of TPM (partially motivated by Qui-Gon's death) and though he already seeking to join with the Sith, Palpatine has yet to make contact.In Legends yes, but we can't assume that is the case with Canon, considering the dating has been changed. I grant you there remains no reason for Dooku to jump through hoops skill wise in Canon either, but there remains the matter of his loyalty and ability to act as a Sith outside of Force powers and combat abilities. Killing Sifo-Dyas may well have been a test in itself. And the simple existence of Maul may have made Palpatine hesitant to induct him fully into the fold. Ultimately Dooku was a very capable dude actively seeking to become a Sith, it would be entirely remiss for Sidious to ignore this opportunity and not exploit Dooku, even if he never intended for him to take Maul's place.Sure but that's partly the point, Dooku was useful for a time, but Maul is ultimately the "far younger and more powerful", or at least had the potential to be. If for a moment we assume Anakin did not exist (which Palpy didn't know him to until after Maul's death) I really don't see Palpatine replacing Maul with someone who'd practically peaked and be dead in 20 years.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I never said anything about a successor, only that Palpatine planned to use Maul, not Dooku, as his Sith apprentice.

Ah. But Canon disputes that, or at least muddies that.



That's the case in Legends, but then, TCW retcons how much of that?



Doesn't the Pyke stuff apply to Legends as well, being part of TCW?



Canon also has similar quotes to Legends about Palpatine taking Dooku in because of the latter's prior training and mastery. And yes, Dooku obviously would've faced tests relating to his commitment to the dark side, but not the trials that Maul faced, nonetheless.



True.



Well, there's the quote saying that Dooku would've rivalled Yoda in time had he not left the Order, and another quote saying that Dooku's potential was enigmatic to even Yoda. But granted, Maul's potential seems greater, yes.



Well, in fairness, Talzin was pretty shit anywhere not called Dathomir, lol. And it's also a matter of her being dogmatic in her Nightsister beliefs, whereas Maul could be much more easily indoctrinated into the Sith Order and would bend the knee far more easily.

@JKBart

Interesting assessment. Thought provoking.