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Hi. there are plenty of things i dont know about comics but trying to learn. some of those characters confuse me and i wanted to see your opinion as far as their power levels. like meta, herald, trans and all that. here is the list:

1. Mr Sinister
2. Apocalypse
3. Super Boy Prime
4. Super Boy Prime on Guardian Amp
5. Kal Kent
6. King Thor
7. Black Panther(strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)
8. Wolverine( strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)
9. achilles (DC COMICS)
10. Thanos
11. WWH
12.WBH

Mr. Sinister: Meta
Apocalypse :Mid Herald
SBP: Trans
GA SBP : Skyfather
Kal Kent: Skyfather
King Thor : Skyfather
Black Panther: Peak Human
Wolverine: Peak Human
Achilles: low herald
Thanos: Trans
WWH: High Herald
WBH: Trans

1. Mr Sinister--meta/LH
2. Apocalypse--LH/MH (his showings vary quite a bit)
3. Super Boy Prime--trans
4. Super Boy Prime on Guardian Amp--high trans/low low SF
5. Kal Kent--high trans
6. King Thor--low SF
7. Black Panther (strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)--strength is very slightly superhuman imo
8. Wolverine( strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)--peak human strength
9. achilles--LH
10. Thanos--trans
11. WWH--HH
12.WBH--high trans

GA SBP was a skyfather the way he fought Monarch.

maybe, depends on how you view monarch i guess. i think they both straddle the boundary.

you think supes 1M could beat (or have close battles) against either GA prime or monarch?

the thing with kal kent is that he is very confusing. in some stories he punch time while depowered and easily takes out firestorm with just simple breath. in other moments he is hurt by metal men crew. in another one he easily defeats all star superman. in other one else men orbs take him out easily. however in his last appearnce in convergence - he was beaten by batman 1 million in a physical fight and ultraman basically 1 shotted him. kal kent came strong at his first appearances however it seems like with time DC portrays him as average superman or even less dont know.

well, with kal, the longer he was away from the super sun the weaker he became... i don't recall him losing to bats 1M though. where did that happen?

Originally posted by leonidas
maybe, depends on how you view monarch i guess. i think they both straddle the boundary.

you think supes 1M could beat (or have close battles) against either GA prime or monarch?
Yes, Kal Kent would beat both. Originally posted by Dareangel
the thing with kal kent is that he is very confusing. in some stories he punch time while depowered and easily takes out firestorm with just simple breath. in other moments he is hurt by metal men crew. in another one he easily defeats all star superman. in other one else men orbs take him out easily. however in his last appearnce in convergence - he was beaten by batman 1 million in a physical fight and ultraman basically 1 shotted him. kal kent came strong at his first appearances however it seems like with time DC portrays him as average superman or even less dont know.
He was depowered in Convergence.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, with kal, the longer he was away from the super sun the weaker he became... i don't recall him losing to bats 1M though. where did that happen?

convergence: cryme syndicate #1

here is the batman 1 million beating him watch from 9:38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-XesA8nRGc

at 16:01 ultraman one shots him

Originally posted by abhilegend

He was depowered in Convergence.



really? where is it stated? dont get me wrong i am not challenging if what you say is true or not, on the contrary, i want to see kal kent as powerful. but when batman 1 million beats him, are they in their universe or not

Originally posted by Dareangel
Hi. there are plenty of things i dont know about comics but trying to learn. some of those characters confuse me and i wanted to see your opinion as far as their power levels. like meta, herald, trans and all that. here is the list:

1. Mr Sinister
2. Apocalypse
3. Super Boy Prime
4. Super Boy Prime on Guardian Amp
5. Kal Kent
6. King Thor
7. Black Panther(strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)
8. Wolverine( strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)
9. achilles (DC COMICS)
10. Thanos
11. WWH
12.WBH
SBP - Trans / teambuster
SMP - High tier teambuster with skyfather physicals
Kal Kent - low Skyfather , time punch ftw
King Thor - Skyfather
Black Panther / wolverine - enhanced
Thanos - Skyfather
WWH - Herald
WBH - Low teambuster

teambuster isn't a rank you ****ing idiot.

1. Mr Sinister-Meta/Low Herald
2. Apocalypse-Mid-Herald
3. Super Boy Prime-High Trans
4. Super Boy Prime on Guardian Amp-Skyfather
5. Kal Kent-Skyfather
6. King Thor-Skyfather
7. Black Panther(strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)superhuman
8. Wolverine( strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)-enhanced
9. achilles (DC COMICS)
10. Thanos-High Trans
11. WWH-High Herald
12.WBH-Trans(Yes, trans, Carver!)

Wolverine seems like he's got more than just peak human strength. I vividly remember him lifting the dead weight of a good number of ninja after they'd dogpiled him. This happened at least once maybe more

you're right, he does have some higher feats. i was speaking more in general. he may be considered slightly enhanced though.

1. Mr Sinister - High Meta
2. Apocalypse - Low Trans
3. Super Boy Prime - Low Skyfather
4. Super Boy Prime on Guardian Amp - High Skyfather
5. Kal Kent - Mid Skyfather
6. King Thor - Mid Skyfather
7. Black Panther(strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human) - High Street
8. Wolverine( strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human) - High Street
9. achilles (DC COMICS) - Low Herald
10. Thanos - Low Skyfather
11. WWH - High Heralds
12.WBH - High Trans

Originally posted by abhilegend
Mr. Sinister: Meta
Apocalypse :Mid Herald
SBP: Trans
GA SBP : Skyfather
Kal Kent: Skyfather
King Thor : Skyfather
Black Panther: Peak Human
Wolverine: Peak Human
Achilles: low herald
Thanos: Trans
WWH: High Herald
WBH: Trans

http://i.imgur.com/vkMfQug.gif

I guess it depends on who you ask.

@Dareangel

Go to the tierings here at KMC...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t577922.html

I agree with Abhi's list, with the exeption of Wolverine.

I think the matter of his strength is beyond dispute at this point.

Originally posted by Dareangel
really? where is it stated? dont get me wrong i am not challenging if what you say is true or not, on the contrary, i want to see kal kent as powerful. but when batman 1 million beats him, are they in their universe or not
When Batman 1 million beat him he was totally powerless.

Ultraman blindsided him and he was losing his powers anyway.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When Batman 1 million beat him he was totally powerless.

Ultraman blindsided him and he was losing his powers anyway.

oh i see. is there any showing of him being full power? i see that he is depowered in all showings he has.

1. Mr Sinister - High meta
2. Apocalypse - Low Trans
3. Super Boy Prime - Mid Trans
4. Super Boy Prime on Guardian Amp - High Trans to Low Sky father
5. Kal Kent - High Trans
6. King Thor - Sky father
7. Black Panther(strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human) - Low Meta
8. Wolverine( strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human) - Low Meta
9. achilles (DC COMICS) - Low Herald
10. Thanos - High Trans
11. WWH - Low Trans to Mid Trans
12.WBH High Trans to low Sky father

Does anyone think Sinister and Apocalypse's power-relation has been a bit weird?

Sinister, even with hundreds of years of prep, had no shot at killing Apocalypse.

Yet he seems to perform roughly around Apocalypse's league when fighting other people.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Does anyone think Sinister and Apocalypse's power-relation has been a bit weird?

Sinister, even with hundreds of years of prep, had no shot at killing Apocalypse.

Yet he seems to perform roughly around Apocalypse's league when fighting other people.

yep. never really understood it either. sinister's highs match well with apoc's and if anything he seems smarter so i've never understood. kinda the older brother syndrome it seems like. makes no real sense to me though.

I would place Sinister at low herald, or even higher. He has stomped quite powerful X-Men rosters with ease.

I would also generally put Sinister around low herald, but, as I mentioned, someone around low herald would generally be able to give Apocalypse a fight for his money.

I generally chalk this up to Apocalypse getting so much hype but little in the way of the feats.

based on powerset sinister should be able to do pretty much anything apoc can do and more. one of marvel's coolest characters imo.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Does anyone think Sinister and Apocalypse's power-relation has been a bit weird?

Sinister, even with hundreds of years of prep, had no shot at killing Apocalypse.

Yet he seems to perform roughly around Apocalypse's league when fighting other people.

Sinister is a good character. Love to see more of him. I wish theyd do a villian mini

@ proff .....Apoc low trans, WTF!

I always assumed that the Sinister and Apocalypse dynamic was because Apoc created Sinister, and Sinister probably thinks that the guy could uncreate him if Sinister tried to take him on one by one.

I suppose ozymandias eventually took over Sinister's role as the scheming underling.

Sinister was gold all up until messiah complex, then it went downhill.

Yeah, like most X-Men related stuff I would argue.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, like most X-Men related stuff I would argue.

All of Marvel now that I think about it.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I suppose ozymandias eventually took over Sinister's role as the scheming underling.

Sinister was gold all up until messiah complex, then it went downhill.

Messiah complex? Which one was that?

Originally posted by krisblaze
All of Marvel now that I think about it.

Quite possibly.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Messiah complex? Which one was that?

The one with the first mutant birth post house of m.

Last good X men story.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Quite possibly.



The one with the first mutant birth post house of m.

Oh ok. Where cable was running around with hope.

Originally posted by abhilegend


Ultraman blindsided him and he was losing his powers anyway.

as i remember in the 1 million arc, when he is losing his powers the flight is among the first things he is losing. but here he still has his flight which means he wasnt that depowered.

Originally posted by Dareangel
Hi. there are plenty of things i dont know about comics but trying to learn. some of those characters confuse me and i wanted to see your opinion as far as their power levels. like meta, herald, trans and all that. here is the list:

1. Mr Sinister
2. Apocalypse
3. Super Boy Prime
4. Super Boy Prime on Guardian Amp
5. Kal Kent
6. King Thor
7. Black Panther(strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)
8. Wolverine( strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)
9. achilles (DC COMICS)
10. Thanos
11. WWH
12.WBH We have a tiers thread if you want to check it out.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t577922.html

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Oh ok. Where cable was running around with hope.

iirc that was what happened at the end of the story, around the time Xavier gets shot in the face.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I would also generally put Sinister around low herald, but, as I mentioned, someone around low herald would generally be able to give Apocalypse a fight for his money.

I generally chalk this up to Apocalypse getting so much hype but little in the way of the feats. It might be because Apocalypse iirc hasn't lost to anyone cleanly. There is always some plot device loss or Apocalypse is weaker than normal, and even when weak he's beaten the x-men badly in like 30 seconds which is something Sinister has never done straight up, even with the Marauders.

Originally posted by -Pr-
iirc that was what happened at the end of the story, around the time Xavier gets shot in the face.

Poor charles. I hate how all my idols from the 90s turned into douchebags. Scott, Charles, Namor, freaking sucks

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Poor charles. I hate how all my idols from the 90s turned into douchebags. Scott, Charles, Namor, freaking sucks

Ikr?

With Charles there were rumblings early on, but nothing that would have suggested Deadly Genesis with Vulcan and the like.

'yea...the illuminati, Nick Fury...sucks ass

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Poor charles. I hate how all my idols from the 90s turned into douchebags. Scott, Charles, Namor, freaking sucks

lmao... are you serious? charles has always been a dick.

Really? I've always seen him as the father figure. Not sure why everything has to be retconned into being dark and edgy (I.e. A dick).

Originally posted by ghostman
lmao... are you serious? charles has always been a dick.

There's a difference between wanting to bang teenage Jean and going full mindwipe using, Illuminati joining dickhead.

Originally posted by ghostman
lmao... are you serious? charles has always been a dick.

Read early xmen. Charles wasnt a dick. Neither was scott. Fury was an ass but not a MURDERING ass. Reed, Namor, Tchalla....the only one i half expected to turn heel was Tony. Due solely to ego. But the others, nay?

Not every character need to be Jason phuckin Todd

Originally posted by -Pr-
There's a difference between wanting to bang teenage Jean and going full mindwipe using, Illuminati joining dickhead.

or you you know, like pretending to lose his powers during a very crucial time, which would of resulted in a shit ton of people dying if his plan failed. or faking his death a shit ton of times, and one of those times was...........so he can have some time alone

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5057/5513679936_86052341a9.jpg


and thats just the tip of the iceberg, theres the danger room shit, him covering up an entire team of x men being killed, and you know him killing his sister in the womb...

**** xavier

http://static9.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/53420/1188475-uxm_49_stairs.jpg

Not really disproving my point. He was retconned in to being much worse than he had been previously. Danger, Vulcan, all that, only came about through retcons. For a long time, sure, his judgment wasn't always the best, but he wasn't nearly as bad as he ended up becoming once they started changing shit around.

edit: And Kitty Pryde really isn't one to talk.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Not really disproving my point. He was retconned in to being much worse than he had been previously. Danger, Vulcan, all that, only came about through retcons. For a long time, sure, his judgment wasn't always the best, but he wasn't nearly as bad as he ended up becoming once they started changing shit around.

edit: And Kitty Pryde really isn't one to talk.


those first few times i mentioned were retcons.....? small dick big dick medium dick orange dick, it doesnt matter, a dick is still a dick. i will admit, they upped his dickery to silver age superman comicbook cover levels a lot over the years.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Not every character need to be Jason phuckin Todd

jesus, i know!! im tired of the try hard batman grittyness thats been going on since god knows when.... batman and his mythos changed the industry for worse....

Originally posted by -Pr-
Not really disproving my point. He was retconned in to being much worse than he had been previously. Danger, Vulcan, all that, only came about through retcons. For a long time, sure, his judgment wasn't always the best, but he wasn't nearly as bad as he ended up becoming once they started changing shit around.

edit: And Kitty Pryde really isn't one to talk.

This

Yea he made mistakes but xavier was intended to be a MLK type character. All that stuff came later. The only reason Kitty called him a jerk is because she wasnt ready to be an xman. She was still a novice with her powers and she had childish impulses.

Originally posted by ghostman
those first few times i mentioned were retcons.....? small dick big dick medium dick orange dick, it doesnt matter, a dick is still a dick. i will admit, they upped his dickery to silver age superman comicbook cover levels a lot over the years.

the disappearing for a bit wasn't rectonned, no, but it wasn't exactly high on the scale of dickery. It makes him no worse than most superheroes, who take stupid risks all the time.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
This

Yea he made mistakes but xavier was intended to be a MLK type character. All that stuff came later. The only reason Kitty called him a jerk is because she wasnt ready to be an xman. She was still a novice with her powers and she had childish impulses.

Yep. and she tried to get Colossus arrested.

Originally posted by -Pr-
the disappearing for a bit wasn't rectonned, no, but it wasn't exactly high on the scale of dickery. It makes him no worse than most superheroes, who take stupid risks all the time.



Yep. and she tried to get Colossus arrested.


what about the faking his death, leaving a taped will along with having his students watch him painfully die leading to them getting captured immediately, then almost killed... then comes back two years later after hiding in the ****ing basement and making jean lie to everyone about it... if that isnt high OR atleast medium....i dont know man...


his dickery stretches back into the early x men days

Heroes have faked their deaths before. It isn't remotely as bad as mindwiping Cyclops or joining the Illuminati, and besides, back then he did a hell of a lot of good to balance out the occasional bad.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Not every character need to be Jason phuckin Todd

This comment is sig-worthy.

Originally posted by Dareangel
as i remember in the 1 million arc, when he is losing his powers the flight is among the first things he is losing. but here he still has his flight which means he wasnt that depowered.
No, he lost his flight at 1/1000th level of full power.

And punched through time at even less power level.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he lost his flight at 1/1000th level of full power.

And punched through time at even less power level.

where do you get the numbers from? are they stated? as i remember he lost his flight in the early stages when he just got to earth. when the metal men attacked him he already couldnt fly. also he broke time barriers when very depowered but gets beat up by batman 1 million who is simply a maeta? and once again one shotted by ultron. do you see a skayfather or even trans leveler going down like that?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Anyway, Kal punching through time isn't so impressive on its own but when you consider how much he was weakened, its ****ing awesome. As per JLA 1M, he was at least weakened to 1/10000 level of his power as he is at least lightspeed and here he could only jump (not even fly) at 1/10000th speed of light.

http://i.imgur.com/68Us7V2s.jpg http://i.imgur.com/OHCGBLKs.jpg http://i.imgur.com/09oDmPws.jpg

Then he gets weakened even more in DC 1M 3 where even his HV is gone and he's at the last reserves of his power.

http://i.imgur.com/1w3qH8js.jpg

Even more weakened in DC 1M 4 where he punches through time to the point he ages into an old man.

http://i.imgur.com/vcI414Os.jpg

But as soon as he reaches 853rd century, he's back at his full power.

http://i.imgur.com/WwYHhjTs.jpg

So it was Kal Kent at less than 1/10000th of his power who punched straight through time. At full power he would punch straight through Hulk too.

I don't think any skyfather at less than 1/10000th of his power can punch through time.

If he is depowered completely, yes Batman can beat him. And Ultron?

1. Mr Sinister-low herald
2. Apocalypse-mid herald
3. Super Boy Prime-high trans
4. Super Boy Prime on Guardian Amp-skyfather
5. Kal Kent-skyfather
6. King Thor-skyfather
7. Black Panther(strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)-peak human
8. Wolverine( strength wise - peak human, enhanced, super human)-peak human
9. achilles (DC COMICS)
10. Thanos-high trans
11. WWH-high herald
12.WBH-low trans

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't think any skyfather at less than 1/10000th of his power can punch through time.

If he is depowered completely, yes Batman can beat him. And Ultron?

can you provide the evidence he is 1/10000th of hiw power? quoting yourself saying that in other thread is not evidence.

where is it stated that he was depowered completely when batman beats him?

i meant ultraman. still one shotted him while he had a good amount of his powers since he could fly. kal kent also seems to always avoid fighting and let even wonder woman do the fighting for him. he is like beast from the x men. doesnt do the fighting

Wolverine is beyond peak human in physical matters

Originally posted by Genii96
Wolverine is beyond peak human in physical matters

in death of wolverine they stated even without the healing factor he still could resist the poison for a while because of his super human strength and abilities. so by that and feats maybe he is enhanced to very low level of super human. also in his fights vs beats he always overpowers beast physically. and beast is what class 2? i think he is somewhere around beast and blade level of strength. but thats just my opinion

WWH is NOT high herald tier, he is just plain herald tier at best.

Panther is stronger than Peak Human strength wise. He can break chains and sh*t.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Poor charles. I hate how all my idols from the 90s turned into douchebags. Scott, Charles, Namor, freaking sucks

i actually like Scott since the House of M. to me his character was unrelatable until you see him actually struggle with hard decisions and you see his process. He seems less of the boy scout.

Namor to me has and more than likely will always be cool if hits on Sue Storm and the likes.

we can all agree that they took Charles' character and drug it through the mud and then tried to flush the evidence. its like they refused to let him have any role except for leader/mentor or behind the scenes/ string puller but it kinda makes sense. He had a dream, the dream has been carried on/taken over by others he would be pressed to feel relevant or feel responsible for the overall success or failure of that dream which is his legacy and seemingly only reason to exist.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Poor charles. I hate how all my idols from the 90s turned into douchebags. Scott, Charles, Namor, freaking sucks

i actually like Scott since the House of M. to me his character was unrelatable until you see him actually struggle with hard decisions and you see his process. He seems less of the boy scout.

Namor to me has and more than likely will always be cool if hits on Sue Storm and the likes.

we can all agree that they took Charles' character and drug it through the mud and then tried to flush the evidence. its like they refused to let him have any role except for leader/mentor or behind the scenes/ string puller but it kinda makes sense. He had a dream, the dream has been carried on/taken over by others he would be pressed to feel relevant or feel responsible for the overall success or failure of that dream which is his legacy and seemingly only reason to exist.