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SWTOR's Force-wielding Act III bosses engage in a free-for-all in the Dark Temple.

Darth Thanaton, Darth Baras, Vitiate's weakened Voice, and the First Son all battle for supremacy. Who's the strongest? Who's the weakest? Who fits in between and where?

I've been curious about this topic too recently. As a small tangent, does anyone think that the Sel Makor-possessed Voice that the Wrath beat is comparable to the weakened Voice that the Hero beat? If so, I would think that Baras would likely be the strongest one.

Vitiate's weakened voice stomps.

1. Vitiate's Voice
2. Thanaton
3. First Son
4. Baras

Originally posted by Solar Power
I've been curious about this topic too recently. As a small tangent, does anyone think that the Sel Makor-possessed Voice that the Wrath beat is comparable to the weakened Voice that the Hero beat? If so, I would think that Baras would likely be the strongest one. Not even close.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Not even close.

Agreed. He Vitiate was resisting and weakening Sel Makor, and additionally I doubt Sel Makor is even on Novel Vitiate level otherwise.

Vitiate was getting wrecked by Sel-Makor.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
1. Vitiate's Voice
2. Thanaton
3. First Son
4. Baras

Why's Thanaton above Baras, anyway?

In sabers Baras is definitely above, but Baras is really unimpressive. There's really no reason to believe that he's comparable to Thanaton without the amps that Wrath neutralized. With them, I see Baras being roughly equal or superior to Thanaton. As of the final fight for both, however, the disparity between their Force prowess, while smaller than their saber skills, gives Thanaton the win imo. Baras really won't be able to get close enough to Thanaton to press sabers, plus I really doubt that Wrath II could beat Thanaton solidly, so there's that.

Weakened Vitiate takes it.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
In sabers Baras is definitely above, but Baras is really unimpressive. There's really no reason to believe that he's comparable to Thanaton without the amps that Wrath neutralized. With them, I see Baras being roughly equal or superior to Thanaton. As of the final fight for both, however, the disparity between their Force prowess, while smaller than their saber skills, gives Thanaton the win imo.

Aren't all of his feats with amps? If so, we're obviously including them.

Baras was convincing the Dark Council (including Thanaton) that he wielded the power of the Emperor, so that's pretty damn good.



Baras contended with him pretty well. Their fight was described as "fierce" and Baras lost due to being tired out, not outright beaten in combat.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Aren't all of his feats with amps? If so, we're obviously including them.

What I'm saying is, this thread is a battle of the final boss', and by the final fight Baras had none of his amps, so why would they be relevant here?



Do you really think he was affecting the DC's minds? He's a manipulator; he played his cards right. The Voice had disappeared, he was stronger than most of the DC while he had the amps, and he played on this to convince them he was the new Voice.




As is the goal of Soresu. I don't disagree that it must've been an impressive fight, but we both know it would've been primarily a saber-based fight, and the fact that Wrath II was able to resist Baras' Force attacks is both a good feat for Wrath and a negative one for Baras. Do I think Wrath could've resisted Thanaton? No. Do I think Wrath could beat Thanaton? Depends how strong Baras really was.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
What I'm saying is, this thread is a battle of the final boss', and by the final fight Baras had none of his amps, so why would they be relevant here?

I'm not using them as they were in the finales, bar Vitiate for obvious reasons. Otherwise, the First Son would be mentally torn, which would make him inherently the weakest here - and perhaps by far. I'm obviously trying to get a fairer fight out of this.



I didn't say he was affecting their minds. But they obviously weren't questioning his status as the Emperor's Voice until the Wrath came along, and sources state that one of the Voice's most distinguishable attributes is the fact that it wields the power of the Emperor. So obviously, Baras gave the impression that he wielded the Emperor's power. Which would amount to being more powerful than all of the Dark Councillors, not just most.



It seems like Baras would've used quite a lot of Lightning, but never succeeded in overpowering the Wrath that way.

Why would the Wrath not be able to resist Thanaton?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not using them as they were in the finales, bar Vitiate for obvious reasons. Otherwise, the First Son would be mentally torn, which would make him inherently the weakest here - and perhaps by far. I'm obviously trying to get a fairer fight out of this.

In that case, I'd put it:
1. Weakiate Voice
2. First Son(?)
3. Baras (I would almost place Baras above First Son, but First Son would've been stronger assuming all the crap in the story that weakened him didn't happen)
4. Thanaton



Assuming we take it at face value, but again, the Voice was missing, he was more powerful than most of the Councilors with the amps, and he played his cards right. You also imply that they were really convinced. I observed them being almost completely unmoved by anything he was saying, but that's just me.




I agree that he would've used a lot of lightning at first, but was unable to breach Wrath's defenses, so resorted to saber combat, which obviously ended in Baras' defeat.



I hold Baras pretty solidly below Thanaton in Force, and my thinking is that if the fight was described as "fierce," it generally implies it was pretty even, and by that logic then Wrath'd probably falter under Thanaton's superior Force assault.

I mean, Baras and Angral's saber fight was pretty even iirc.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I mean, Baras and Angral's saber fight was pretty even iirc.

It was, but that doesn't change anything relating to his Force prowess.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
It was, but that doesn't change anything relating to his Force prowess. Because he previously dominated Angral with lightning before getting his amp.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
In that case, I'd put it:
1. Weakiate Voice
2. First Son(?)
3. Baras (I would almost place Baras above First Son, but First Son would've been stronger assuming all the crap in the story that weakened him didn't happen)
4. Thanaton

Interesting. What is there for the First Son?



Nah, the Council weren't able to deny Baras' claim to the position until the Wrath disproved him.





At worst, you could argue that they weren't sure, which is still very impressive on Baras' part.



True, since we see him drawing his lightsaber at the end of the second cutscene, which is when his Lightning fails. Though by the end, he's back to using Lightning.



Why's Baras below Thanaton, much less solidly? As I said above, Thanaton was subscribing to the idea of Baras being the Voice (ergo, holding the Emperor's power) until the Wrath disproved that notion in combat. It would seem that Baras was more powerful.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Interesting. What is there for the First Son?

Well, his being the first (and strongest) of the Emperor's Children would imply that he's probably comparable to Weakiate Voice, now that I think about it. It's more the feats of the other Children and Vitiate himself, then translating that to the First Son.




One way of thinking about why they didn't want to deny his claim is because they know what happens to Councilors who don't follow the Emperor's will blindly, and if they reject his Voice, it'd result in their death. When two people claimed to've been handpicked by him to serve important places in his inner circle, they weren't sure which one was legit, so letting the stronger one win would make sure that they chose the one who was surely the actual chosen of the Emperor.



Again, or they were too scared of possibly invoking the wrath of the Emperor (not THE Wrath, you know what I mean).



All of his best feats (Force-wise) were from when he had his various amps, and without them Thanaton is significantly more impressive. The amount of power he lost must've been huge for Wrath II to be able to've actually won against him.

1. Weakened Voice
2. Baras
3. First Son (only because Syo was resisting)
4. Thanaton.

Also Baras still had his amps at the end of the story. The Wrath severed his connection to the Entity, but I think the only thing that gave him were visions of the future. Baras is significantly more powerful than Thanaton with his Sel-Makor amp. Nox and the Wrath are comparable in prowess, and Baras is slightly weaker than the Wrath. Nox wouldn't be able to dominate Baras like she did Thanaton.

There's no Syo presence for the First Son here.

I wasn't really ranking them for the thread.

First Son is probably above Baras in this thread. He may be more powerful than Thor tbh.

Why's everybody putting Weakitiate as number 1?

Because he's Vitiate. Scourge says that even in that condition no one else stands a chance. Even immeasurably further weakened at the end of the fight he still rips apart the temple.

Is it the Temple or the inner sanctum?

Scourge says its the temple.

He says the Temple is falling apart, but he's only watching through the holocomm. And apparently you see the Temple exterior intact when you leave, though I've never been bothered to check the video myself.

He's in the temple as well and says that "we have to leave" indicating that the damage is wide-spread enough to effect his area as well.

I thought he stayed at the ship. "We have to leave" is could also just be that they all need to get off Kaas before it gets worse for them.

No, the whole party attacks the temple to split up the Imperial Guard and make it easier to get to the Emperor.

And no, the line is: "The temple is coming apart, we have to leave! Get to your ship."

I'll check the video and see if the Temple came down entirely.

Theres a scene transition afterwards but it doesn't really matter imo.

What scene transition?

It looks like just the inner sanctum:

https://youtu.be/FQJkrwo-pn0?t=419

You're still in the Dark Temple when you regain control of your character and it's still intact.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Why's everybody putting Weakitiate as number 1? His showings against the HoT shit on the other boss fights due to the sheer extent of his abilities ALONE, along with his still incredible Force Showings.