Ben Kenobi vs Count Dooku

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Jmanghan
1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-Out

darthbane77
Gonna say Dooku.

SunRazer
Tyranus takes all rounds every time.

Ursumeles
Lol. How is this even a question?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Tyranus takes all rounds every time.

SeriousLogic
Great thread Jeff. Dooku fcks

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by SunRazer
Tyranus takes all rounds every time.

McP
Originally posted by SunRazer
Tyranus takes all rounds every time.
... as for now.

cs_zoltan
By Legends quotes Dooku should murder. By scaling off of Canon Vader Ben could very well win.

SunRazer
Canon has Dooku as a near-equal to Yoda, apparently.

cs_zoltan
Canon has Vader above Anakin and there's no Zonakin, so...

SunRazer
Based on what is there no Zonakin?

Pretty sure Yoda's better than Anakin in Canon, too. Ben contending with Vader doesn't put him above Dooku erm

Ziggystardust
Dooku is >> Vader

cs_zoltan
Based on that there's no description of the fight in canon iirc, so you can't prove he was enraged or whatever.

Also I doubt Dooku is near Yoda in canon. Yoda wouldn't be captured by pirates and Maul, wouldn't be beaten by Voss and TCW Anakin, wouldn't get raped by Talzin etc. Then there's the quote saying they couldn't use Yoda in TCW a lot because there wouldn't be a challange for him, so Dooku is no challange for Yoda.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
Canon has Dooku as a near-equal to Yoda, apparently. Lol.

SunRazer
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Based on that there's no description of the fight in canon iirc, so you can't prove he was enraged or whatever.

The novel, junior novel, comic, movie script and IIRC the website all claim that he got enraged.



Dooku got captured in the same episode where he, Anakin and Obi-Wan couldn't sense non-Force sensitives creeping up on them. Vos apparently beat him because he didn't use conventional technique, which is what Dooku excels against. Dooku vs TCW Anakin is weird and goes both ways.

I mean, it is TCW. The same series where Anakin struggles with Clovis and Grievous loses to Gungans.



Sidious is a challenge, though. And Filoni also says that nobody can compete with Sidious. Sounds contradictory. Not that Filoni seems to be connected with the rest of SW continuity anyway.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol.

cs_zoltan
Sure, and Ben > Sidious:

Back on the Rebel base on Coruscant, Luke Skywalker tested Kyp's Jedi power potential. What he discovered was the strongest presence he had known since his Masters Obi-Wan and Yoda.
--The Essential Guide to Characters

Ben murderstomps.

SunRazer
Well, assuming there's any sort of correlation with Legends, there's also a number of quotes there that have Dooku contending with Yoda.

Besides, Sidious > Ben and Yoda, so how's Ben > Kyp > Sidious going to work?

MythLord
Dooku.

Ziggystardust
I don't need to point out why Jedi Power potential is going to exclude the obvious choices of Sidious and Vader.

SunRazer
Although Zoltan's right on Zonakin, as far as the website is concerned. It just mentions Anakin being stronger than the last time they fought and thus being able to beat Tyranus.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I don't need to point out why Jedi Power potential is going to exclude the obvious choices of Sidious and Vader.

Force is the Force you fugg.

McP
Until it wont be said otherwise, Ben at this very moment is rusty and passed his prime. His duel with Vader - who actually has no good showings against other Force users, proves nothing. The future seasons of Rebels might change that though.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by SunRazer
Although Zoltan's right on Zonakin, as far as the website is concerned. It just mentions Anakin being stronger than the last time they fought and thus being able to beat Tyranus.


I find it funny how Disney have shaved off so much of the continuity yet there still seems to be an innumerable amount of contradictions. Even when they are generally very subtle, used to explain minor discrepancies, a few of them are still significant enough to cause a Butterfly Effect - a fairly small and seemingly insignificant thing that ends up causing lots of conflict. My view is that we don't have to except everything as fact when they leave gaping holes in the plot. I doubt Vader is above Zonakin and there a lot of statements - in Legends at at last - which describe the suited Vader as past his prime.

SunRazer
Pre-ANH Vader is definitely not as strong as Anakin in Legends. In Canon, though, everything points to Vader growing stronger.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by McP
His duel with Vader - who actually has no good showings against other Force users, proves nothing.

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5448400-6798887019-giphy.gif
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5191506-4399930726-51913.gif
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5191507-1063496411-51913.gif
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http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5191514-8134024617-51913.gif

mmm

Ziggystardust
The wii versions of the game don't count for shit.

SunRazer
Pretty sure he means Canon. Though you can still have him throwing Ahsoka off the ledge.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The wii versions of the game don't count for shit.

It's a licensed C-canon game, you don't count for shit.

Ziggystardust
Just by being the shittest of the 3rd(?) Gen consoles is enough to make it obsolete and less valuable than my opinion on the matter.

Nephthys
The wii version is inferior, yes.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5448400-6798887019-giphy.gif
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5191506-4399930726-51913.gif
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5191507-1063496411-51913.gif
http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5191508-0209371541-51913.gif
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5191514-8134024617-51913.gif

mmm

thumb up

Jmanghan
Originally posted by McP
Until it wont be said otherwise, Ben at this very moment is rusty and passed his prime. His duel with Vader - who actually has no good showings against other Force users, proves nothing. The future seasons of Rebels might change that though.

"Who actually has no good showings against other Force Users"?

Lol.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by The_Tempest
thumb up

Tempest, you understand that the different cutscenes in the various TFU game versions ( I and II ) contradict not only each other but the novelizations as well?

As for Vader's feats against other force users in Legends he blasted back 4 Jedi simultaneously.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Tempest, you understand that the different cutscenes in the various TFU game versions ( I and II ) contradict not only each other but the novelizations as well?

Lmao.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Tempest, you understand that the different cutscenes in the various TFU game versions ( I and II ) contradict not only each other but the novelizations as well?

This interesting actually considering they milked this franchise dry with a comic, a novel and 3 video game adaptations. Which one is the most correct in terms of Story? I'd say the Novel.

UCanShootMyNova
I only take the novel personally since it's the only third person unbiased source.

I will use evidence from the other sources to back up my points though since most people find all versions valid.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Tempest, you understand that the different cutscenes in the various TFU game versions ( I and II ) contradict not only each other but the novelizations as well?

As for Vader's feats against other force users in Legends he blasted back 4 Jedi simultaneously.

I'm aware of the many differences, yeah.

But I suspect you want to discard the Wii version because it makes Starkiller "look bad" by having Vader TK him successfully at various points. Neph and Ziggy want to do the same, but for a slightly different reason: it makes Vader look good.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm aware of the many differences, yeah.

But I suspect you want to discard the Wii version because it makes Starkiller "look bad" by having Vader TK him successfully at various points. Neph and Ziggy want to do the same, but for a slightly different reason: it makes Vader look good.

thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
*Shrug*

Putting my goals/desires to the side you have to acknowledge they do contradict each other.

Also Emp already confirmed that Starkiller's capabilities are only related to Galen insofar as potential.

cs_zoltan
Starkiller got ragdolled in 2 game versions, backed up by the Prima Official Game Guide and Sam Witwer. If Syn thinks that the novel never depicting Vader ragdolling Starkiller means he can't and that it overwrites 4 sources then all I can say is...


LMAO.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm aware of the many differences, yeah.

But I suspect you want to discard the Wii version because it makes Starkiller "look bad" by having Vader TK him successfully at various points. Neph and Ziggy want to do the same, but for a slightly different reason: it makes Vader look good.

That's just the thing Tempest. The Wii version has points in it were it makes Galen look good as in far more powerful than it ever depicts him in the novel/game etc ect. What it also has though, are parts where it makes him look not so good. I expect those who want to cherry pick cutscenes feauturing Vader TK'ing his apprentice in the Wii version, will rather like to discard cutscenes where a random imperial guardsmen does the same. Just a thought.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
*Shrug*

Putting my goals/desires to the side you have to acknowledge they do contradict each other.

Of course they do.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Also Emp already confirmed that Starkiller's capabilities are only related to Galen insofar as potential.

wat

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova


Also Emp already confirmed that Starkiller's capabilities are only related to Galen insofar as potential.

Where?

UCanShootMyNova
The quote you all use to say Starkiller and Galen are equals doesn't actually say that.

"Galen Marek's clones possess their genetic host's fighting skills, including incredible abilities with the Force." - The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated And Expanded.

Clones plural. We know for a fact the aberrant clones Starkiller slaughtered did not possess the same combative ability Marek did and going by Starkiller's performance against Vader he didn't either regardless of the clones having his potential or memory flashes. It's noted in the TFUII novelizations that some of the aberrant clones possess abilities and skills to lesser or greater skills then the Starkiller clone itself.

UCanShootMyNova
I honestly have great distaste for the clone though I feel obligated to defend him because people still believe his combative ability is related to Galen's own for some reason.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
That's just the thing Tempest. The Wii version has points in it were it makes Galen look good as in far more powerful than it ever depicts him in the novel/game etc ect. What it also has though, are parts where it makes him look not so good. I expect those who want to cherry pick cutscenes feauturing Vader TK'ing his apprentice in the Wii version, will rather like to discard cutscenes where a random imperial guardsmen does the same. Just a thought.

Not only that but the Wii version actually has him ragdolling the ISD rather then simply shifting and guiding it. People don't like to acknowledge that which does not suit their agenda.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Starkiller got ragdolled in 2 game versions, backed up by the Prima Official Game Guide and Sam Witwer. If Syn thinks that the novel never depicting Vader ragdolling Starkiller means he can't and that it overwrites 4 sources then all I can say is...


LMAO.

1 of which is a non canon source.

1 of which is a summary of in game events.

And the other 2 of which don't actually occur as the same event in game but at different points throughout their storyline.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
LMAO.

UCanShootMyNova
Can't even come up with a legitimate response. Expected but still disappointing.

cs_zoltan
You confuse can't with the lack of desire to further indulge your tedious and ridiculous wanking.

UCanShootMyNova
I don't see how it's wanking to point out the inconsistencies with taking in game events and cutscenes which contradict each other.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not only that but the Wii version actually has him ragdolling the ISD rather then simply shifting and guiding it. People don't like to acknowledge that which does not suit their agenda.

I'm aware, in the Wii version Galen literally pulls down the Star destroyer without batting an eye, he also ragdolls Vader in a far more humiliating fashion too, but this is after being TK'd by almost every other character he fights - even Maris brood apparently. In the second game he manages to break Vader's choke entirely and starts demonstrating his own display of ragdolling. So Tempest can speculate about mine and your motives all day and night, that has nothing to do with the objective truth of the matter.

UCanShootMyNova
Honestly my Malgus analogy in the Starkiller's Story thread sums up my feelings on the matter pretty well.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Starkiller got ragdolled in 2 game versions, backed up by the Prima Official Game Guide and Sam Witwer. If Syn thinks that the novel never depicting Vader ragdolling Starkiller means he can't and that it overwrites 4 sources then all I can say is...


LMAO.


This.

And no idea where people got the impression that novels are more canon than comics and cut scenes.

It certainly isn't that way with the movie novelisations.


Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I honestly have great distaste for the clone though I feel obligated to defend him because people still believe his combative ability is related to Galen's own for some reason.


Well maybe because:

1) The "clone" has better feats than the original, and

2) It was never even officially confirmed that the "clone" was a clone.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I'm aware, in the Wii version Galen literally pulls down the Star destroyer without batting an eye, he also ragdolls Vader in a far more humiliating fashion too, but this is after being TK'd by almost every other character he fights - even Maris brood apparently. In the second game he manages to break Vader's choke entirely and starts demonstrating his own display of ragdolling. So Tempest can speculate about mine and your motives all day and night, that has nothing to do with the objective truth of the matter.

There's a difference between getting ragdolled during gameplay and cutscenes. In which instance is Galen being TK'd by everyone?

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Darth Thor
This.

And no idea where people got the impression that novels are more canon than comics and cut scenes.

It certainly isn't that way with the movie novelisations.





Well maybe because:

1) The "clone" has better feats than the original, and

2) It was never even officially confirmed that the "clone" was a clone.

1. Their relative performances against Vader and Galen's performance against Sidious disproves this.

2. What?

McP
@Zoltan

You are one of those people, that I respect on this forum. But using TFU's feats for Vader? Really? It's like using CW's TK feats for Mace...

Anyway, I should be more specyfic. Apart of TFU and TFU II, Vader has not good showings against other strong Force users

Zenwolf
Originally posted by McP
@Zoltan

You are one of those people, that I respect on this forum. But using TFU's feats for Vader? Really? It's like using CW's TK feats for Mace...

Anyway, I should be more specyfic. Apart of TFU and TFU II, Vader has not good showings against other strong Force users

The Dark Woman, Celeste Morne, Ferus Olin, Clone Darth Maul...

Trocity
Originally posted by McP
using TFU's feats for Vader? Really? It's like using CW's TK feats for Mace..

You must not even acknowledge Galen Marek's existence.

Beniboybling
I remember the days when Syn wasn't around, and we barely ever talked about Marek.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by McP
But using TFU's feats for Vader? Really? It's like using CW's TK feats for Mace...

So you want to dismiss an entire C-canon project (which was not just approved by GL, but he had direct intput in it), because you don't like it?

McP
Originally posted by Trocity
You must not even acknowledge Galen Marek's existence.

Well, I am. But 'm not consider him as that strong. For me, he was barely able to beat Shaak Ti, and got stomped by Sidious (DS ending, which I consider as a more reliable source. I mean, I know that LS ending was always canon ending in Legends, but I think that Galen gave more then 100% of himself. In a regular fight, the outcome of his duel with Yoda or Sidious' level would be the same, as it was in DS ending.

McP
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So you want to dismiss an entire C-canon project (which was not just approved by GL, but he had direct intput in it), because you don't like it?

Cmon man, we both know, that there are sources that are clearly exaggerating character's abilities. I bet, that Stover's characters, like Mace, Anakin, dooku, Yoda or Sidious would stomp the Luceno's version of those characters. I don't like TCW and Rebels at all, but I must admit, that characters' abilities seems to be really comperable with those from movies. TFU, CW are not.

cs_zoltan
Well there's a clear distinction even between what movie characters and their Legends counterpart can do so that's hardly a fair comparison. By that way of thinking you should dismiss all Legends material.

Besides Vader has comparable showings to his TFU scaling in Disney canon, like pulverizing Lyleks, tanking the center of factory and Sith weapon explosions, lifting and crushing AT-AT.

UCanShootMyNova
@McP: Would you throw out SWTOR or the Old Republic because Sith have brought down cruisers, caused a star to go supernova, wiped the mind of a space station or drained an entire planet?

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I remember the days when Syn wasn't around, and we barely ever talked about Marek.

Good or bad?

McP
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
@McP: Would you throw out SWTOR or the Old Republic because Sith have brought down cruisers, caused a star to go supernova, wiped the mind of a space station or drained an entire planet?

Ofc not. But in Legends it was simple for me: I had those reference books, that somehow retconed exaggerated feats. And Naga Sadow, for example, from a guy who could blast stars, was reducted to a guy who - due to items - can blast an unstable star.
And Palpatine - who aside of his DE feats haden't anything special - was stated to be the most powefil Sith Lord in history, which somehow retconed status of people like Nihilus and Vitiate.
Legens!Sidious > any version of Vitiate. To be fair, I always used " >= " in a case between them. And the difference between Malgus and Vitiate always helped me to compere him to mace or Dooku or Vader basing of their differences with Sidious or Yoda.
My version of powerscaling. Might be laughtable for you, but for me it's fine.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by SunRazer
Tyranus takes all rounds every time.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Good or bad? Which do you think. smile

UCanShootMyNova
Don't know. You debate against me a lot but you might enjoy that.

cs_zoltan
It's as enjoyable as kick in the balls.

UCanShootMyNova
I don't know what Beni's into. smile

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