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Round 1: Force only
Round 2: All-out

Full rest/recovery, victor is taker of majority. 15 meters starting distance, no holds barred.

Trash: Darth Bane
1. End of DE
2. Jedi Academy
3. Black Fleet Trilogy
4. Vector Prime (beginning of NJO)
5. Star by Star (middle of NJO)
6. The Unifying Force (end of NJO)
7. Dark Nest
8. LoTF
9. FotJ

Luke should be stronger in the early NJO, but IIRC he wasn't the best fighter in early NJO, or?
He don't gets past TUF.

Up

When do you think Luke will win?

What feats of Luke's do you reckon are beyond Palpatine's paygrade?

Elli, thoughts on above?

Originally posted by SunRazer
When do you think Luke will win?


Near the beginning of the Yuuzhan Vong war, IMHO, if we handwave Luke's rustiness. I'd say by Vector Prime, Luke is beyond DE Sidious as a duelist, and on par with RotJ Sidious as a Force user. Justification somewhat below.



Well, that's an interesting question, because the two are powerful enough that it's tough to pen an upper limit on their abilities. Some of Luke's feats, like black hole manipulation, his fortress collapsing and his tanking of UnuThul, seem to be more impressive than anything Sidious has done bar his Force storms (which seem to amplify his power beyond what he could do conventionally), but that may just be due to a lack of situations in which Sidious would need to do those things. I think his ragdolling of Caedus is notable as well.

I think the main case is just powerscaling. We know that Luke has more potential than Sidious, that he grows incredibly quickly, going to being a Vader tie duelist by RotJ in like a few months of self-study, and that he just needs some "unlocked reserves" to beat Sidious in a duel by DE. I'm guessing that Leia's amateur BM isn't unlocking more potential than, say, two decades of improvement, so I'd say Luke has surpassed Sidious by sometime in the NJO. By LotF there really isn't much question, seeing as how he's about as hold as Sidious in RotS and has been training for about as long, but has a ridiculous learning rate and far more potential.

I think the feats are there as an eye test for whether Luke is doing things on Sidious's level to make the powerscaling believable. He starts to do this by the Black Fleet trilogy, and is clearly doing so by the NJO.

The Fortress feat isn't better than Sidious musing he could crack the foundations of the Imperial Palace with a thought in Rebel Target. Said Palace being 3km tall, 20km wide and large enough to hold Star Destroyers.

Yeah true, although he was just claiming that, and cracking the foundations isn't the same as lifting it all into the air and destroying it. BTW do you have the quote?

But yeah, it's tough to resolve Luke vs. Sidious with feats wars. I just use powerscaling to establish that Luke should surpass him in some decent time-frame, and then his feats by Black Fleet and NJO are good enough to make him look like he's past that milestone.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah true, although he was just claiming that, and cracking the foundations isn't the same as lifting it all into the air and destroying it. BTW do you have the quote?

But yeah, it's tough to resolve Luke vs. Sidious with feats wars. I just use powerscaling to establish that Luke should surpass him in some decent time-frame, and then his feats by Black Fleet and NJO are good enough to make him look like he's past that milestone.

The foundations of a 20km building is still enormous.



He even mentions raining down rubble on the heads of the unfortunate, which implies he could do worse.

Thanks.

It doesn't change my idea though. Luke solidly surpasses DE Sidious by mid-late NJO; early on it's murky.

Round 1: 6
Round 2: 5

Luke got better as a duelist faster than better as a Force user