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Novel Vitiate. Takes place on Dromund Kaas. All out fight.

Team, tbh. You want resons, or? :P

Always

Either one alone would give him a challenge.
Their TK feats are over anything Novelitate has done, and iirc they have good barrier feats, which should be able to hold off Vittys lightning for a time, while the other one attacks him. Questions?

To be honest, this isn't beyond Vitiate's power to just TP them both into submission, like Malak & Revan.

It is, and they destroy him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It is, and they destroy him.
Beni, I like you.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It is, and they destroy him.

Galen at the very least, is getting mind raped. Both Revan and Malek have supirior willpower feats.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Galen at the very least, is getting mind raped. Both Revan and Malek have supirior willpower feats.
Which are the best willpower feats of them, at this point?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Which are the best willpower feats of them, at this point?

Various ins and outs between Malachor V, Nathema, and then the Star Forge. Vader hasn't got much in terms of TP resistance and the Starkiller clone too unstable - it's really not a question of whether he gets mindraped or not, he just does, and Vader's apprentice will be turned against him -- Tempest should restrict TP and I'd give it to the team.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Various ins and outs between Malachor V, Nathema, and then the Star Forge. Vader hasn't got much in terms of TP resistance and the Starkiller clone too unstable - it's really not a question of whether he gets mindraped or not, he just does, and Vader's apprentice will be turned against him -- Tempest should restrict TP and I'd give it to the team.
Star Forge as of pre-meeting with Vitate?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
To be honest, this isn't beyond Vitiate's power to just TP them both into submission, like Malak & Revan.

As much as I hate to admit it, this is probably true.

Team wins with no TP, though.

I kept TP in play for a reason. Without TP, Vitiate receives a vicious curbstomp.

But there's no prep.

Still don't see Vitate taking this. He maybe dominates Killer with TP, but not instantly. In this time, Vader should be able to kill Vitate, imo.

Well then, you have a mismatch either way.

If we consider willpower to be synonymous with telepathic resistance, then Marek and Vader's abilities to will themselves through various near death experiences should suffice here. Certainly Vader & Marek are much more powerful than Revan and Malak were.

coolstorybro

I'm mobile at the moment, but the effectiveness of Vitiate's mindhaxx in this scenario begs for proof. The Revan novel indicates that it takes a considerable amount of effort from Vitiate to make an attempt. The SWTOR Encyclopedia mentions that Malak and Revan were easy targets because they were already on the precipice of the dark side... To say nothing of the home turf advantage and prep that Vitiate enjoyed from the trap.

If there's evidence that he can win the day via an unprepped mind hack, I've yet to see it.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
coolstorybro Thanks.

Team demolishes. There no evidence to suggest Vitiate can auto mind rape someone as strong willed as Vader and Starkiller, on the fly, without prep.

Vader's will power is sufficient enough to give Chaos the finger and virtually will himself to stay alive, while Marek, shouldn't be too far behind. Once telepathy is outta the way, Vitiate gets torn a new @sshole with either frigate busting TK +, or CQC from two most skilled warriors to touch a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Team demolishes. There no evidence to suggest Vitiate can auto mind rape someone as strong willed as Vader and Starkiller, on the fly, without prep.

Vader's will power is sufficient enough to give Chaos the finger and virtually will himself to stay alive, while Marek, shouldn't be too far behind. Once telepathy is outta the way, Vitiate gets torn a new ******* with either frigate busting TK +, or CQC from two most skilled warriors to touch a lightsaber.

So far, those repping the team have offered the most compelling arguments. The Tories need to actually make a case here.

Deronn soloed, tbh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Team demolishes. There no evidence to suggest Vitiate can auto mind rape someone as strong willed as Vader and Starkiller, on the fly, without prep.

Sidious was mind raping Marek until they got interrupted iirc. Not to mention he could pwn Vader mentally.

Good for Sids.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious was mind raping Marek until they got interrupted iirc. Not to mention he could pwn Vader mentally.

Yeah, he said there's no evidence VITIATE can do it. So unless Sidious is an anagram for Vitiate....

Sidious>Valkorion>>>Novel Vitate in TP.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious was mind raping Marek until they got interrupted iirc. Not to mention he could pwn Vader mentally.

Well, that's a great showing for Sidious. Vitiate's unprepared telepathic showings are inferior to Sid's own, in my opinion.

His showings of telepathically "dominating" Revan and Malak are overrated. Firstly, it was done on a rather potent DS Nexus in Dromund Kaas. While arguably in a weaker state than what is was when Sith Empire inhabited it, it's dark enegies were powerful enough to compel Kyle Katarn to to turn to the darkside by itself:



---Excerpt from Dark Force The Dark Forces Saga, Part 5

Secondly, Vitiate already knew of their arrival, so it was obviously a prepped showing, and not one he did on the fly. Thirdly, Malak and Revan were already skirting very close to the darkside when Vitiate turned them, so that deadens the showing even more-so.

Galen or Starkiller?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious was mind raping Marek until they got interrupted iirc.

You recall incorrectly lmao. Don't pull an AP now.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Galen or Starkiller?

Galen.

Team. Galen has willed himself back from the brink of death multiple times and as we know from the Thrawn Trilogy and various other EU sources post RotJ TP resistance is based around raw power.

Thanks for the responses. I'm sure you're aware of my disagreement vis a vis Sidious and Vitiate. So I'll merely respond to the other points.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Well, that's a great showing for Sidious. Vitiate's unprepared telepathic showings are inferior to Sid's own, in my opinion.

His showings of telepathically "dominating" Revan and Malak are overrated. Firstly, it was done on a rather potent DS Nexus in Dromund Kaas. While arguably in a weaker state than what is was when Sith Empire inhabited it, it's dark enegies were powerful enough to compel Kyle Katarn to to turn to the darkside by itself:



---Excerpt from Dark Force The Dark Forces Saga, Part 5

Secondly, Vitiate already knew of their arrival, so it was obviously a prepped showing, and not one he did on the fly. Thirdly, Malak and Revan were already skirting very close to the darkside when Vitiate turned them, so that deadens the showing even more-so.

Malachor is an incredibly more potent and corrupting influence than Dromund Kaas is, at least in the Kotor era. Revan and Malak were able to walk upon it's surface without succumbing or with much effort. Considering Kaas' effects on others throughout history, it seems to me that Kyle is the exception, instead of the rule. Not that his willpower can be compared to that of Revan and Malak's.

Secondly, Swtore states that it only required a fraction of Vitiates power to turn the pair. So obviously he did not need to prep and did not do so.

Thirdly, Vader and Starkiller "skirt the darkside" a touch more than Revan and Malak did. Both are more susceptible to corruption than they were imo.

Vitiate might be able to affect Galen insofar as turning him back to the darkside given that's essentially what Sidious was subtly attempting ( or at least what the game and novel implies he was attempting ) and Galen was hesitating on whether or not to save Kota or strike Vader down but given Vitiate is going to be being pressed by both Galen and Vader here I doubt he has the time to mentally probe Galen and find out what the best way to manipulate him and turn him to the darkside would be. Galen certainly has no incentive to aid Vitiate.

Although... Is this in character Temp? Galen might choose to aid Vitiate in order to defeat Vader and find out how to get back to his own timeline and because he considers a neutral Sith to be a more viable ally then someone he hates and who hates him. I assume this is Vader and Galen right before they fight each other on the Death Star.

The Exile and her party all managed to withstand the effects of Malachor, and that was after the MSG event made it even more unbearable. I also recall Ben Skywalker and potentially others having their ability to use the Force diminished while on Kaas.

And Vader is already deeply submerged in the dark side, he can hardly be corrupted lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And Vader is already deeply submerged in the dark side, he can hardly be corrupted lol.

Like, honestly. Unless you were implying that Vitiate could just force them to bend the knee.

OOC, has there ever been an instance where Vitiate had mindhacked an established dark sider?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Exile and her party all managed to withstand the effects of Malachor, and that was after the MSG event made it even more unbearable. I also recall Ben Skywalker and potentially others having their ability to use the Force diminished while on Kaas.

And Vader is already deeply submerged in the dark side, he can hardly be corrupted lol.

The Exile is also immensely strong in terms of will, and I'd surmise that her bond with her party members, on top of their own force capabilities and strong wills would have helped them withstand Malachor's effects. At any rate it's clearly a very strong force, unlike Dromund Kaas as of the Kotor era which possessed a planetary population on it and therefore had like, babies and slaves walking around no problem. Well, I mean the slaves would be walking, the babies... not so much......

And I doubt Revan and Malak would have been diminished by a DS nexus at that point in their careers. DS nexuses don't even always weaken Jedi, remember. Whie was strengthened on Vjun afterall.

Vitiates TP isn't less effective against darksiders just because they're already dark, lol.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
OOC, has there ever been an instance where Vitiate had mindhacked an established dark sider?

The Nathema ritual?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
OOC, has there ever been an instance where Vitiate had mindhacked an established dark sider? He made Lord Scourge shit is pants, but then he's hardly established.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He made Lord Scourge shit is pants, but then he's hardly established.

I've no doubt of Vitiate's ability to affect a dark sider, but I mean enslave one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Exile is also immensely strong in terms of will, and I'd surmise that her bond with her party members, on top of their own force capabilities and strong wills would have helped them withstand Malachor's effects. At any rate it's clearly a very strong force, unlike Dromund Kaas as of the Kotor era which possessed a planetary population on it and therefore had like, babies and slaves walking around no problem.

And I doubt Revan and Malak would have been diminished by a DS nexus at that point in their careers. DS nexuses don't even always weaken Jedi, remember. Whie was strengthened on Vjun afterall.

You have a point there. Anakin and Scout were as well and it's implied Yoda was too. And though it could be argued that Whie and Anakin were bordering on the Darkside which explains it Scout was firmly in the Light as was noted by Yoda earlier in the novel.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Exile is also immensely strong in terms of will, and I'd surmise that her bond with her party members, on top of their own force capabilities and strong wills would have helped them withstand Malachor's effects. At any rate it's clearly a very strong force, unlike Dromund Kaas as of the Kotor era which possessed a planetary population on it and therefore had like, babies and slaves walking around no problem.

And I doubt Revan and Malak would have been diminished by a DS nexus at that point in their careers. DS nexuses don't even always weaken Jedi, remember. Whie was strengthened on Vjun afterall. So does Vader, so does Starkiller, if all it takes is a bond with Meetra to withstand its effects then they can more than manage. And Malachor was even worse for them that it was Revan and Malak, probably much much worse.

And we are discussing Dromund Kaas' ability to wither a Jedi's connection to the Force, as potent dark side nexuses are known to do. Not mind rape woman and children, which they are not. And I remember Traya giving a big speech about how dark side nexi are great for breaking Jedi, and I remember Freedon Nadd putting this into practice against Exar Kun, yeah.Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You have a point there. Anakin and Scout were as well and it's implied Yoda was too. And though it could be argued that Whie and Anakin were bordering on the Darkside which explains it Scout was firmly in the Light as was noted by Yoda earlier in the novel. Vjun is indicated to be encouraging Yoda to given in to his anger and his hatred as I recall, which hardly lends itself to that point.

I believe the comparison was between Revan + Malak and Kyle, not Vader and SK. My point was merely that just because Kyle fell to something doesn't mean they would be bothered by it.

Traya gave that speech about how dark side nexii were great at breaking Jedi for Revan. Pretty sure he ain't gonna fall to the trick he already mastered, lol. He wasn't a Jedi by that point, not even close. Kaas wouldn't do shit to him.

Fair, but in that case I don't think Malachor became that potent until after the MSG event. Unless you have some evidence that suggests otherwise. There's also the added fact that in the end Malachor started them down the dark path.

And it's not a trick lol, its a cold reality that neither Revan nor Malak are immune to. The fact that Vitiate is described as completing their fall indicates they were still between worlds.

Aight, kewl.



Well, I wasn't necessarily claiming the nexus itself capable of having any profound effect on Revan and co. - only that the nexus is a very powerful on indeed, and even though Malak and Revan was flirting with the darkside, they were still Jedi and the light side of the Force should still have been the primary source of their power. Hence, they should have experienced a rather noticeable drop in power - one that Marek and Vader shouldn't.



That's a possibility, but generally, dark side sites have been noted to diminish the strength of Jedi rather than strengthen them:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11116/111167681/5455288-4721872-2984724359-44358.jpg

"Those connecting to the light side of the Force, find their power diminished in these places, while those who wield the darkside are amazed at the strength they gain, even as that energy overwhelms them."



Well, Vader is already 99.99% committed to the dark side, so I doubt he can be corrupted. Marek is a possibility, but again, will he have the same negative circumstances Malak and Revan failed to circumvent?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fair, but in that case I don't think Malachor became that potent until after the MSG event. Unless you have some evidence that suggests otherwise. There's also the added fact that in the end Malachor started them down the dark path.

And it's not a trick lol, its a cold reality that neither Revan nor Malak are immune to. The fact that Vitiate is described as completing their fall indicates they were still between worlds.

Revan was dragging the corrupting influence of Malachor up into the battle before the MSG was activated to corrupt Jedi during the fighting.

They were a hell of a lot closer to the darkside than Anakin, Scout and Whie were, and those guys were getting amped by a ds nexus. That they weren't completely darkside doesn't mean they'd be weakened. And if Revan can specifically use nexii to corrupt Jedi its clear that he's highly immune to the same effects and capable of utilising their energy without any fear.

Getting amped by a dark side nexus doesn't make you unsusceptible to being corrupted by it, if anything the reverse is true. And again you're ignoring the fact that every bit of Sith power Revan dabbled in further warped and twisted his mind.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Getting amped by a dark side nexus doesn't make you unsusceptible to being corrupted by it, if anything the reverse is true. And again you're ignoring the fact that every bit of Sith power Revan dabbled in further warped and twisted his mind.

This seems like a solidly reasoned stance to me. When Whie drew on Vjun and in the passage of the novel where it's hinted Yoda momentarily grew stronger doing the same it had a corrupting influence on Whie and the air around Yoda apparently warped and darkened.

Yeah, Dooku also appears to attempt to Dun Moch Yoda into giving in to its influence, at which point Yoda appears to pull back from its "whispers". It would make sense that while on Dromund Kaas Revan and Malak might have felt themselves empowered by the nexus, but it would also have clouded their minds and weakened their spirit imo, making them more susceptible to Vitiate's influence.

The corrupting influence of Malachor V's planetary surface isn't much, lol. It's the Trayus Academy that's corrupting.

Not what the Revan novel through Meetra's point of view claims, 'traversing its surface had been agony' and all that.

More importantly though, the dark side power of Dromund Kaas was already strong enough before Vitiate arrived for him to choose the planet out of all the other lost planets to rebuild his empire on, coincidentally over pre-MSG Malachor V as well. Then he went about experimenting with his rituals and corrupted the planet even further, as well as creating dark side sites such as the Dark Citadel and the Dark Temple. Add on a thousand years of Sith inhabitants, namely the likes of the Emperor himself, and we have one seriously powerful seat from which the Sith Emperor could play the environment game from.

Take further into account that four thousand years later, where the Sith have abandoned Dromund Kaas and its sites of power have been diminished, such as the destruction of the Dark Temple by the Emperor, etc... and see how much of an effect it was still having on Kyle Katarn, Luke Skywalker, Jaina Solo and Ben Skywalker.

The idea that a Jedi isn't at a severe disadvantage on the planet, and Vitiate doesn't have every ace in the deck against said Jedi whilst on it, is pretty moronic at best.

Vitiate's on the same level as Plagueis, and I could see Plagueis winning tbh

@AP - I've given up using the Revan novel as a source for anything on KotOR II. Not that agony equates to mind control anyway. Unless I'm mistaken, it's been at the Trayus Academy that people are truly corrupted.

The reason I asked for an example of an established dark sider being mind hacked is that it seems to me that the ability to mind hack, be it Vitiate's or Palpatine's, requires a conversion to take place simultaneously. Consider Sidious's mindrape of Luke, Kam Solusar, and Starkiller. Or Vitiate with Revan, Malak, and the Jedi in SWTOR.

It also explains why the Sith rely on more conventional means of manipulation with established dark side adepts and why, almost always, they kill them outright rather than try to mindhack them.

Wouldn't a dark side HoT rebut that?

I'm mobile and so can't verify, but I'm pretty sure the SWTOR encyclopedia's page about the Hero vs Vitiate explicitly mentions that he's a light sider or some such. Can someone verify?

It doesn't look like it to me. No lightside stuff mentioned.

Can you post the image?

ARE YOU EVEN SORRY? - Vitiate screams to burning Galen who is very burned after many Lightning attacks after he was defeated. Angry Vitiate looks at corpses of Imperial Guard outside his throne room Galen killed to get there.

I... I... You... - Galen can't tell a word, he moans and sighs without end, he is like a worthless dying animal you would snap his neck to get rid of his suffering moans.

AAAAAA - screams angry Vitiate. He grabs head of mortally wounded Galen and sends much Lightning through the head. The most epic screams and moans of unended suffering galaxy never seen play through the stone halls of the temple.

Galen begs the Force to end his suffering, he never seen so much suffer.

Vitiate grabs Galen's almost dead body to the stairs steps. He leaves his head on first step.

Galen can't look, his eyes roll at every direction, he can't breathe. He looks at Vitiate and barely speaks.

-What are you... No... Please...

Vitiate stomps his head.

One crack, one weak scream, five seconds of suffering.

It all ends.

lmfao

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Consider Sidious's mindrape Starkiller.

?

Bart hath spoken.

Best case made by the opposition so far.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
?

The book has him hypnotizing/entrancing Starkiller to get him to kill Vader.

Quote? Because I'm pretty sure I know what scene you're referring to and while I agree it was probably a case of Force persuasion on Sidious's part I don't see how that constitutes as a "mindrape."

I'm mobile, but I vividly recall the word trance being used.

The Emperor appeared out of the settling smoke, glee on his face. He raised one hand as though to touch the apprentice. The apprentice felt a wave of hypnotic suggestion flow through him.

Yes! Kill him! He is weak, broken! Kill him and you can take your rightful place at my side!

The apprentice remained frozen, mesmerized by the Emperor's ghastly charisma. Why not? Wasn't this what he had considered on Raxus Prime? If he agreed to that plan, he would be free of one Master and slave to another-but what was to stop him from attacking that Master in turn, one day? He would not make the same mistakes Darth Vader had.

Darth Vader-who had murdered his father, lied to and betrayed him, killed PROXY, branded Juno a traitor, and kidnapped Kota and the others. Didn't he deserve to die a thousand times over?

And power-he had become used to it in the service of his Master. When the dark side sang through him, others danced to his will. That would be hard to give up.

"No!" Kota's voice came as though from a great distance. The apprentice noted, as though viewing the world in slow motion, the Jedi Master telekinetically snatching the Emperor's lightsaber from his waist and, with a surety belying his physical blindness, using it to cut down the Imperial Guards watching the prisoners. Lunging forward, he struck next at the Emperor, who stood, apparently unarmed, with one hand still reaching out for the apprentice.

But the Emperor was never unarmed. Raising his other hand, he blasted Kota with lightning before the blow came close to falling. Sith energy crackled between them and the Jedi Master fell back, caught in the Emperor's deadly grip.

"Help him!"

Bail Organa's voice snapped the apprentice out of his trance.

The basis of Sidious being able to have such a powerful effect on Galen is Galen's own ingrained hatred for Vader and love for Juno and the Rebels.

Starkiller is get mindraped by Vitiate if Sidious could do that to him.

Huh, seems like Marek would have become is mind slave if Kota had not intervened.

I wonder how Syn rationalizes all his Galen cock sucking when Galen is too perfect for his pathetic mouth.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Starkiller is get mindraped by Vitiate if Sidious could do that to him.
Caedus ragdolls Arcann, when Valkorion could do that to him

Exactly Beni, and we know that Kota, and the three non force sensatives rebels - Mon Mothma, Garm Bel Iblis, and Bail Organa where all able to resist Sidious' attemps at extracting information from them. click

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Caedus ragdolls Arcann, when Valkorion could do that to him Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Exactly

Caedus TK feats are rather pathetic, lmao.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Caedus TK feats are rather pathetic, lmao.
I just laugh at: Sidious can do that->Novel Vitate can do that.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Exactly Beni, and we know that Kota, and the three non force sensatives rebels - Mon Mothma, Garm Bel Iblis, and Bail Organa where all able to resist Sidious' attemps at extracting information from them. click

PIS. Makes no sense from a logical standpoint.

Originally posted by Azronger
PIS. Makes no sense from a logical standpoint.

Not at all. It simply means that anyone who's actively trying to resist Sidious' attempts at advanced uses of telepathy - receiving and transmitting thoughts and memories or mind control, will be successful - even if those individuals are non force sensitive, otherwise he would have extracted the information right there and then. And if someone that incompetent can convince Starkiller to kill his master, then Vititate should have no trouble whosoever doing the same.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
otherwise he would have extracted the information right there and then. You have proof of this? Seems to me like Sidious wasn't in a particular hurry, and didn't see the need to TP people whom his lackeys could deal with.

Regardless you forget that Luke tried to do this against Palpatine in RotJ, and failed. Much like your argument lol.

And I remember Luke managing just fine to evade a nice mind control attempt from Palaptine. Pretty impressive considering his Jedi training is only a bit ahead of the non force sensitives of that group, and of course, ROTJ comes after The Force Unleashed, so perhaps we can conclude that Palpatine improves from failing to mind control 3 muggles to being able to sort of give a novice like Luke some headaches. None of this is relevant to Galen Marek however, who will just become Vitiate's puppet.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And I remember Luke managing just fine to evade a nice mind control attempt from Palaptine. Pretty impressive considering his Jedi training is only a bit ahead of the non force sensitives of that group, and of course, ROTJ comes after The Force Unleashed, so perhaps we can conclude that Palpatine improves from failing to mind control 3 muggles to being able to sort of give a novice like Luke some headaches. None of this is relevant to Galen Marek however, who will just become Vitiate's puppet. You do? I don't personally. He did however read his mind with culpable ease. On the other hand given you're no closer to proving your premise I see no reason to continue entertaining this shitty attempt at sophistry lol.

Bye then

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0MYPsWHTcrkOd0t2/200w.gif

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Not at all. It simply means that anyone who's actively trying to resist Sidious' attempts at advanced uses of telepathy - receiving and transmitting thoughts and memories or mind control, will be successful - even if those individuals are non force sensitive, otherwise he would have extracted the information right there and then. And if someone that incompetent can convince Starkiller to kill his master, then Vititate should have no trouble whosoever doing the same.

A plausible theory (one that I disagree with, though). This would apply to Vitiate, too, though, and I think Theron Shan and a fair number of other non-Force sensitives from Ziost would agree. So if we're going by this theory, Vitiate isn't dominating Starkiller.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Huh, seems like Marek would have become is mind slave if Kota had not intervened.

He would have probably given in to the Darkside but it's made pretty clear Galen is being subtly manipulated based off his hatred for Vader and the love he has for Juno and responsibility he feels he owes the Rebels rather then telepathically subdued.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Exactly Beni, and we know that Kota, and the three non force sensatives rebels - Mon Mothma, Garm Bel Iblis, and Bail Organa where all able to resist Sidious' attemps at extracting information from them. click

Who said that the Emperor was even attempting to TP them? All Palps was saying, is what would happen.

It seems unlikely he'd feel the need to rip the information from their minds when torturers could do the same. Regardless it's a far more plausible explanation then Sidious being incapable of doing so.

Palpatine forcibly ripped info out of Luke's head in RotJ ---- him being unable to do the same to non-force sensitives is ridiculous.

Vitiate TP's Starkiller, and at a minimum stalls Vader, and then wrecks him

Vitiate doesn't have any feats supporting his ability to do what you're claiming.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Vitiate TP's Starkiller

The most powerful person he's TP'd is pre-KotOR Revan, and that was on a nexus and explicitly facilitated by Revan's own mental state.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The most powerful person he's TP'd is pre-KotOR Revan, and that was on a nexus and explicitly facilitated by Revan's own mental state.

Not that he dominated 8,000 Sith more than a millennia before that, we're going to ignore that one

Who were willing?

They were desperate and fearful for their lives and invested their hopes in Vitiate. But it's still impressive.

"When the eight thousand Sith who answered Vitiate's call arrived at his palace, he dominated their minds and bound their wills to his, forcing the Sith to participate in the ritual." From the Revan novel. He told them there would be a ritual, and that they should help him perform it, but they didn't help him by choice. The only part they willingly did was go to his palace, but by no means did they do the ritual willingly.

It's either from the Codex or the Encyclopedia, since the Revan novel only claims that there were a couple hundred Sith Lords, not eight thousand.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
"When the eight thousand Sith who answered Vitiate's call arrived at his palace, he dominated their minds and bound their wills to his, forcing the Sith to participate in the ritual." From the Revan novel. He told them there would be a ritual, and that they should help him perform it, but they didn't help him by choice. The only part they willingly did was go to his palace, but by no means did they do the ritual willingly.

I see almost that exact quote on wookieepedia, which cites the Revan novel. I'm almost sure that Nyriss claims they willingly engaged in the ritual, or at least leaves it unclear.

The Revan novel's take on it is exclusively Nyriss' recounting of history, though, so it's hardly infallible.

Also, "bound their wills to his" sounds like it might've been another ritual.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I see almost that exact quote on wookieepedia, which cites the Revan novel. I'm almost sure that Nyriss claims they willingly engaged in the ritual, or at least leaves it unclear.

It is from Wookiepedia, since I don't have the novel to check. If someone did, then we'd have our answer.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Revan novel's take on it is exclusively Nyriss' recounting of history, though, so it's hardly infallible.

Also, "bound their wills to his" sounds like it might've been another ritual.



It isn't unlikely, given that he had plenty of prep time, but it's purely speculation without concrete evidence.

The SWTOR Encyclopaedia states that they were willing.

"Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon."

Nyriss states that they were forced, but then Nyriss wasn't there.

Wait here's the quote.



So yeah he crushed their resistance and turned them into slaves before doing the ritual thing.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The SWTOR Encyclopaedia states that they were willing.

"Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon."

Nyriss states that they were forced, but then Nyriss wasn't there.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The SWTOR Encyclopaedia states that they were willing.

"Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon."

Nyriss states that they were forced, but then Nyriss wasn't there.

They went there by will to perform a ritual, that doesn't mean he didn't dominate their minds anyway. Like I said, it was their choice to go there, but they did not participate in the ritual willingly.

/Shrug to Beni

Alright then.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
They went there by will to perform a ritual, that doesn't mean he didn't dominate their minds anyway. Like I said, it was their choice to go there, but they did not participate in the ritual willingly. Except it literally states that after gathering on the planet, they agreed to partake in the ritual.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except it literally states that after gathering on the planet, they agreed to partake in the ritual.

True. What we have here is a need for a third source.

Not really. The SWTORE suffices.

The third source is the TOR Codex, which also states they were willing, no mention of any domination. TORE and the Codex came later and thus retcon Revan. But they're all in-universe sources anyway. Hardly reliable.

More reliable than Nyriss, who wasn't even there.

Neither were the Imperial scholars or the writer of the Encyclopedia. The only out-of-universe source regarding the Nathema ritual is Force and Destiny, which makes no mention of any domination and outright states in-universe history (What Nyriss says) is just as canon as Jar Jar Binks being the true mastermind of the movies, meaning it's not canon at all.

But we can logically assess who is more likely to be correct ( I favor Imperial scholards personally ).

The writers of the Encyclopedia were there. They know everything up to and of the time of TOR, unless I'm mistaken.

Unless the writer was Vitiate, there's no one who could've been there. What are you basing this off of anyway?

There is a lot of shit in SWTORE that nobody but the Emperor could have known, and more besides, it even refers to events that haven't happened yet. The source is clearly omniscient. It being in-universe is just a narrative framing device.

If it's in-universe, then the writer(s) cannot be omniscient because there is no such character in SW.

In-universe doesn't mean it's a character in SW. Just an in-universe omniscient observer.

The TSCWE writers are described as omniscient, and most guides written from an in-universe perspective feature information it would be impossible for any one person to know.

Regardless, the SWTORE reveals information about the Emperor that nobody else knows, which makes it a more reliable source than Nyriss, who only has heresay.

Nyriss likely made up her story or altered the information she knew (she might've accessed Nathema's databanks?) to convince Scourge to join her cause as well.

Whatever. What matters is that Vitiate never dominated a single person on Nathema.

Yes