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Anakin is in a sound state of mind.

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-out

Fight takes place on Rekkiad. Who wins?

Revan takes all but Sabers, even then it's still a good fight

So, like just after Dooku koed Kenobi?
Anakin in all, but maybe Force, then.

How about Anakin when he started getting serious in that fight? Not enraged serious, but pretty serious.

When he ws serious in the fight, in your opinion?
Really enraged he gets, after he kicked Dooku, imo.

I said he's not enraged. If you want a moment in the novel, then about the time he starts using Djem So instead of Shien.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How about Anakin when he started getting serious in that fight? Not enraged serious, but pretty serious.

That Anakin wins, tbh.

The Anakin we see fighting the magnaguards, dealing with battle droids on the way to Dooku, during the end of OCW, etc., takes sabers but loses Force and all-out.

Is there a reason to assume that this Anakin would take Force? Revan's mastery and versatility in the Force remain central aspects of the fight.

Hmm....yeah, Anakin wins.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Is there a reason to assume that this Anakin would take Force? Revan's mastery and versatility in the Force remain central aspects of the fight.

Anakin below Zonakin loses Force, but the getting-serious one takes all-out IMHO.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Is there a reason to assume that this Anakin would take Force? Revan's mastery and versatility in the Force remain central aspects of the fight.
Anakins more powerful, tho.
Like I said, I am not sure about Force only.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Anakin below Zonakin loses Force, but the getting-serious one takes all-out IMHO.

The getting serious one isn't Zonakin.

The force advantage is still overrated. If you have X taking Sabers and y taking force, it's not an even split. It's like the Starkiller versus battles, he should get outclassed by Kenobi tier Duelists very convincingly but everyone thinks he'll just fcking spam force pushes, like wtf?

Originally posted by SunRazer
The getting serious one isn't Zonakin.
He said that serious Anakin would take all-out, but not force; while Zonakin wins all.

^ yeah.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
The force advantage is still overrated. If you have X take Sabers and y take force, it's not an even split. It's like the Starkiller versus battles, he should get outclassed by Kenobi tier Duelists very convincingly but everyone thinks he'll just fcking spam force pushes, like wtf?

It really varies with the medium. It seems to make sense that a sufficient Force advantage would just be tactically superior to being better with a blade by a comparable margin, but that also depends on how difficult you think it is to launch successful Force attacks.

Blade attacks are generally much easier to make than Force attacks, hence why in close-combat, superior skill tends to trump superior power, provided that both disparities are similar and the Force advantage is not vast (which would allow one to end the fight immediately).

Originally posted by SunRazer
Blade attacks are generally much easier to make than Force attacks,

Yeah, but their range is limited.

If you look at the extreme, like an insta-kill level saber advantage vs. an insta-kill level Force advantage, the latter would win in all but the closest starting distances for the same reason a guy with a drawn gun usually beats a guy with a sword.

If the disparity is smaller, then it becomes more debatable.



Well, not when you consider the contribution of that power to precog and augmentation. In that case, power seems to be at least as important.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Revan takes all but Sabers, even then it's still a good fight

@Ell - As I said, if both advantages are vast, then the one superior in the Force will win, as they have no need to get in close in the first place. Otherwise, assuming the advantages are about equal, the one that's better at dueling will usually triumph.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Otherwise, assuming the advantages are about equal, the one that's better at dueling will usually triumph.

I'm not sure if that's true though.

History would suggest that it is. In contests where the respective advantages are slight, I don't even recall a single example of the more powerful one winning.

Which is why Maul would beat Vader

Originally posted by SunRazer
History would suggest that it is.

Active Force moves have been tipping points before without a huge disparity in power: Sidious vs. Yoda, Satele vs. Malgus, Maul vs. TPM Obi Wan, sort of Galen vs. Vader, Sidious vs. Talzin, etc.

But yeah, it does seem to happen less often than just winning or losing a straight up duel, but that might be more due to the choices of the combatants.

Vader's Force advantage is colossal, and I'm unconvinced that Maul has the sabers advantage, seeing as he was only roughly even with Ahsoka, whereas Vader was beating her.

How did you come to the conclusion that Maul and Ahsoka are equals?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Active Force moves have been tipping points before without a huge disparity in power: Sidious vs. Yoda, Satele vs. Malgus, Maul vs. TPM Obi Wan, sort of Galen vs. Vader, Sidious vs. Talzin, etc.

But yeah, it does seem to happen less often than just winning or losing a straight up duel, but that might be more due to the choices of the combatants.

Satele lost to Malgus, Galen beat Vader through Dun Moch, and Sidious vs Talzin is not a conventional fight (it was pretty much Force only).

Sidious vs Yoda is a good one, but the Force advantage was bigger than the saber advantage (if there was one). Maul vs TPM Obi-Wan? Maul was better in everything.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
How did you come to the conclusion that Maul and Ahsoka are equals?

Well, they fought evenly for a decent amount of time, so I'm assuming that means that Ahsoka curbstomps?

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
How did you come to the conclusion that Maul and Ahsoka are equals?

He is basing it on the fight we see them have, and how it was even.

Meanwhile, Ahsoka is constantly backpedaling against Vader and only just fending off his strikes.

Originally posted by Trocity
He is basing it on the fight we see them have, and how it was even.

Meanwhile, Ahsoka is constantly backpedaling against Vader and only just fending off his strikes. ...While Vader was amped by Malachor, yes.

Vader is a very different combatant to Ahsoka. I'm pretty sure Maul would do better against a less mobile opponent who he can match in pain tolerance and strength.

It's not explicitly stated, and regardless, Vader's performance against Ahsoka was demonstrably better than Maul's, despite the fact that both would've been amped all the same.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Vader is a very different combatant to Ahsoka. I'm pretty sure Maul would do better against a less mobile opponent who he can match in pain tolerance and strength.

Maul isn't Vader's equal in physical fortitude by any stretch of the imagination. Maul might have to worry about his own mobility, since he couldn't even stop himself from being thrown off the edge by Kanan

Originally posted by SunRazer
Satele lost to Malgus,

Yeah, I guess.



They both used the Force pretty liberally; they didn't seem to think it was pointless.



Yeah, but why?



I don't think that changes the point. Yoda having a larger saber advantage wouldn't have changed what happened on that last senate pod (unless if this advantage also translated into Yoda putting his guard up).



He won with a push; the two were dueling pretty evenly.

But still, when you think of the hard on Filoni has for Ahsoka and the hate he has for Maul, for them to be roughly 'equal' during that short bout says a little something.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
...While Vader was amped by Malachor, yes.

Even if that were the case, why does that change anything that's been discussed?

Or are you only addressing the point of Ahsoka constantly being on the backfoot?

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
But still, when you think of the hard on Filoni has for Ahsoka and the hate he has for Maul, for them to be roughly 'equal' during that short bout says a little something.

And yet, despite his hard-on for Ahsoka, he was willing to concede her inferiority to Vader, evidently. That says something as well.

You have nowhere to run, lol.

Oi this is a chill debate. I'm not tryna be all Maul fanboy up in here, I just wanna here your points. On paper Vader is superior

@Ell - Galen didn't win until he used Dun Moch, which was the primary factor.

Why was Sidious vs Talzin unconventional? Because it was Force only, lol.

TPM Obi-Wan was enraged against Maul, and Maul decided to exploit an advantage when Obi-Wan "left himself open to counterattack", per Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force.

If one goes by the assumption that Yoda held the advantage in a lightsaber contest, then that would explain why he was winning in the Grand Senate podium, and forced Sidious to relocate to a higher location where it became an exclusively Force-only battle. That was when Sidious gained the upper hand.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Ell - Galen didn't win until he used Dun Moch, which was the primary factor.


The point is that both thought that Force attacks were worth using, despite the parity.

He didn't win with a Force move, but his saber skill wasn't the tipping point either...



But your logic would predict that Sidious would just go in and dice her.



Yeah, so that's a potential application. It doesn't have to be an emotional instability.



Yeah, so that's an example where the Force advantage won because of the environment.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The point is that both thought that Force attacks were worth using, despite the parity.

I didn't say anything about what was worth using. I'm talking about who tends to win.



Well, for one, how do you establish which is more skilled and which is more powerful? My conditions were very clear - X is slightly better at dueling, and Y is slightly better at the Force. All of your examples don't fit that criteria.



He kind of did at the beginning, but I know that's circumstantial. Although they never engaged in a traditional duel like most combatants after Talzin left Dooku's body, so this example isn't usable



Maul was better at everything, though, not just the Force. It doesn't fit my criteria of one combatant being the better duelist and the other being the better Force user.



Indeed.

Originally posted by Trocity
Even if that were the case, why does that change anything that's been discussed?

Or are you only addressing the point of Ahsoka constantly being on the backfoot? It is the case, Malachor is a known Force Nexus.

Yeah, thats what I was addressing.

Anakin
Revan
Anakin

Not sure.
Revan.
Revan.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Revan takes all but Sabers, even then it's still a good fight

Anakin
Revan
Revs