Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Fight takes place on Zakuul. Who wins?

Revan

Why would you have the fight take place on Zakuul, where Revan would get amped?

KotOR Revan and the Outlander have the same alignment.

Originally posted by SunRazer
KotOR Revan and the Outlander have the same alignment.

Given that you can reject the grey philosophy at the end of chapter 12. I think not.

Well, then we'll assume they share the same alignment for these purposes. I'm pretty sure Zakuul is just a Force nexus, not a DS nexus, anyway.

I didn't create the OP with the intention of the environment benefiting either party unfairly. Assume it's neutral ground as far as amps and hindrances go, just with the Zakuul Throne Room layout.

Revan should win. The gap between SoR Revan and the HoT is pretty massive, and I'm not sure if going back to KotOR and upgrading the Hero is enough.

Is there a basis for this gap being massive or is this just based on Revan's gameplay mechanic ragdolling?

Not to mention that the gap between KotOR and SoR Revan is likely quite big as well. For one, KotOR takes place over what, a month? Revan had years to grow after that (albeit not in war-related circumstances) and regained his mask, which appears to have made him more powerful. After that, he spent three centuries gaining tidbits from the Emperor's mind. It's really just that SoR Revan was stupidly "split in two", but how that affected him is unknown since, IIRC, Dark Revan still uses both light and dark powers (for those that accept game mechanics, at least).

Originally posted by SunRazer
Is there a basis for this gap being massive or is this just based on Revan's gameplay mechanic ragdolling?


Is that a gameplay mechanic? Doesn't he do it in a cutscene?

Nonetheless, the light side half seems to make it clear that the entire team would struggle against him.



Yeah, true. In that case, I'm not so sure.

Outlander in a phenomenal fight.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is that a gameplay mechanic? Doesn't he do it in a cutscene?

Nonetheless, the light side half seems to make it clear that the entire team would struggle against him.

The cutscene was him gathering power on Yavin IV's incredibly powerful nexus briefly (although Ant and a few others dispute that Dark Revan was amped for some reason), then sending everybody back with a Wave. Which didn't inflict any damage whatsoever, even to the non-Force sensitives.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Is there a basis for this gap being massive or is this just based on Revan's gameplay mechanic ragdolling?



Revan did get two power boost after kotor, one in the Revan novel and another in SOR. If we look at feats comparison there is quite a noticeable gap in power between Kotor Revan and Novel Revan and so on.

There isn't much of a feats comparison to be had, since KotOR Revan lacks specific showings.

Not sure where to place Outlander honestly.

Putlander edges.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not sure where to place Outlander honestly. Try the trash.

Either

Originally posted by SunRazer
The cutscene was him gathering power on Yavin IV's incredibly powerful nexus briefly (although Ant and a few others dispute that Dark Revan was amped for some reason), then sending everybody back with a Wave. Which didn't inflict any damage whatsoever, even to the non-Force sensitives.
He wasn't gathering power. That was a standard attack animation (also seen in the Dread War expansion).

And he does that for the Imperial side, meaning he does it to Darth Nox or the Emperor's Wrath. So no, not amped.


It's established by Revan being capable of "discarding" protagonists in the Temple of Sacrifice operation (referenced by the Devs in a live interview as well), the protagonist not even trying to dispute the point when Revan declares that they are no match for him alone, and the fact an entire strike team was required to beat him - and said strike team wasn't even capable of doing that without circumstances.

"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."

Comments like those make clear that Revan's closer to Vitiate than the Hero of Tython.

KOTOR Revan takes it, barely.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He wasn't gathering power. That was a standard attack animation (also seen in the Dread War expansion).

And he does that for the Imperial side, meaning he does it to Darth Nox or the Emperor's Wrath. So no, not amped.

Well, he was amped for the Republic one, but fair enough.



The fact that they're no match for Revan is obvious. Where's the Dev quote for him discarding them?



Interesting, but that depends of course on how big the disparity is between the Hero of Tython and Vitiate.

Anyway, thoughts on this fight?

He only did the attack for the Imperial version, unless you're referring to when the fight actually begins?

Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that they're no match for Revan is obvious. Where's the Dev quote for him discarding them?
It goes like: "There's even a mechanic where Revan can throw them into the Machine Core!" or something along those lines.

While non-canon, the intent is clear that these protagonists are fighting a being on a whole different level.


I think it can go either way.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

He only did the attack for the Imperial version, unless you're referring to when the fight actually begins?

It goes like: "There's even a mechanic where Revan can throw them into the Machine Core!" or something along those lines.

While non-canon, the intent is clear that these protagonists are fighting a being on a whole different level.


I think it can go either way.

1. I'm referring to the one where he claims "I am Revan!" and he hurls them back.

2. How does that have anything to do with discarding?

3. Really? Interesting. Where do you have these combatants, again?

1. Yeah, that's only in the Imperial version.

2. He's "discarding" them with telekinesis. There's also a mechanic power called "discard," in which the ability is Revan hurling them away like a ragdoll.

3. Between Darth Vader and Dooku.

1. Ah.

2. Still game mechanics. Malgus has a power where he Chokes 3/4 of the team without even gesturing

3. KotOR Revan above Dooku? Ah, but you have Malak on par with Dooku, don't you?

The outlander also gets choked by an exarch knight in the star fortress operation over a hologram.

No clue why you say "still game mechanics" as if that means anything to me, lmfao. Yeah, Malgus can choke three of the protagonists while he fights the fourth.

If the HoT was even comparable to Revan, he wouldn't been on the losing end against him with he's also amped by Battle Meditation and fighting alongside Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and a host of other individuals.

---

Yeah.

Outlander, obviously.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No clue why you say "still game mechanics" as if that means anything to me, lmfao. Yeah, Malgus can choke three of the protagonists while he fights the fourth.

Which is dumb for obvious reasons.



They won



Does that mean you have Traya over Maul?

Elaborate.

Yeah, because of Spirit Revan.

Yeah.

1. Because Malgus can suddenly only Choke two of you when you come in a party of three? Because Malgus can effortlessly Choke, in one instance, HoT, Barsen'thor and the Smuggler, but he can't finish them off and can't even chase down the Trooper (or just, you know, Choke him as well)? Because almost every final boss and their grandmother has some sort of player-dominating effect in TOR?

2. In fairness, Yavin IV was "on another level" to the "immeasurably powerful" DS nexus of Oricon. So Revan had a colossal advantage over HoT there and I don't think a similarly hindered Satele's BM is going to cancel that out. Marr is worth mentioning. Don't think Lana is, though.

3. So where do Sion and Bandon fit?

You cite non-canonical examples. The fight was intended for four individuals, and thus the mechanics and story were written based off of four individuals (as stated in the beginning of every OPS).


That was stated by Satele Shan, who wasn't present on Oricon during the "immeasurably powerful" stage. The nexus was diminished by the protagonists actions and, with the Dread Masters death, the insidious presence nearly completely went away. Thus, it's not surprisingly to recognize that when Satele Shan did visit Oricon, which was likely after the death of the Dread Masters, that she thought of it as more powerful than Yavin IV. Oricon would hardly be considered a nexus with all its focal points of power destroyed.


There's no indication of a colossal advantage, especially when Revan isn't in his best shape either (just got defeated on the Temple of Sacrifice, in which at one point a kilometer's worth of energy backlashed within him). It was stated, and I quote, that the protagonist's "combat effectiveness" was "greatly" increased by the Battle Meditation. Thus, it's clear that he was actually amped, not hindered. And if Satele is anything like Bastila, Revan would also be hindered by the Battle Meditation.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You cite non-canonical examples. The fight was intended for four individuals, and thus the mechanics and story were written based off of four individuals (as stated in the beginning of every OPS).

You failed to address my canonical examples as well

Besides, game mechanics beget game mechanic-based examples.

Malgus can Choke HoT, Barsen'thor and the Smuggler at one point without even gesturing, whilst mentally afflicting the Trooper, yet he can't win the fight then and there? Explain it to me.

Also explain the fact that nearly every final boss "dominates" the players for a time but still ends up losing. It's obviously flashy game mechanics, not legitimate displays of domination, lmfao.



Based on what is the "immeasurably powerful" bit a "stage"? The codex entry would imply that it's entirely possible that it was that before the Dread Masters even arrived.



He didn't seem particularly hurt at the beginning of the fight. And even Atris could heal herself from severe wounds in short amounts of time

Anyways, we agree on Revan being significantly above the HoT as of SoR, but discarding him on neutral ground? Still unsure of that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He didn't seem particularly hurt at the beginning of the fight. And even Atris could heal herself from severe wounds in short amounts of time

As could Revan.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You failed to address my canonical examples as well

Malgus can Choke HoT, Barsen'thor and the Smuggler at one point without even gesturing, whilst mentally afflicting the Trooper, yet he can't win the fight then and there? Explain it to me.

Also explain the fact that nearly every final boss "dominates" the players for a time but still ends up losing. It's obviously flashy game mechanics, not legitimate displays of domination, lmfao.
Obviously the game mechanic would be viewed as Malgus choking one Force sensitive and the two non-Force sensitives.

Sometimes critical thinking is essential.



Based on the fact it's specifically stated it's that powerful due to the Dread Masters' alchemy and their dominating presence. It's literally also stated that the nexus declines exponentially as you destroy their abominations and them. And no, it's stated that the world became that powerful due to them. I assume you didn't play the expansion.


Revan's Force essence was also stripped away from him when the Machine Core became unstable. Force-based energies wouldn't be healed so easily.


If he can easily ragdoll Marr and Shan, he can discard the HoT.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As could Revan.

That's the point...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Obviously the game mechanic would be viewed as Malgus choking one Force sensitive and the two non-Force sensitives.

Sometimes critical thinking is essential.

Lol he does his Choke thing several times, and it's always a different character that's free from the Choke. So at one point, he Chokes the two Force users.

If there was critical thinking, we wouldn't be discussing this



The fact that the world became more powerful from the Dread Masters' ooga-booga and the fact that the nexus thus declines upon the eradication of the DM's (naturally) doesn't preclude the fact that it was immeasurably powerful from the onset. It's the codex entry that proclaims it to be immeasurably powerful, and the same source raises the possibility that the nexus drew the DM's to the planet or something like that.



Alright.



Isn't it widely argued that the Hot is stronger than them? Especially some who go as far as to claim that the HoT was more powerful than Shan by the end of Act I alone. So dominating weaker beings doesn't mean dominating the HoT.

Which isn't a stretch, since we know the Imperial Agent can briefly delay Darth Jadus.

It's not a stretch to assume Darth Malgus can briefly choke even both Force-sensitive protagonists while the remaining non-Force sensitive unleashes his defensive shields and goes in a retreat.

I liken this to how Savage choked Dooku and Ventress at the same time in a fit of rage.


No, it wasn't immeasurably powerful from the oneset. The codex refers to Oricon as it is when you travel to it, and when you travel to it, its plagued with the Phobis devices, dark side abominations, and the Dread Masters.


Revan didn't just dominate them. He ragdolled them, put them in stasis, and basically let them slowly die.

You don't go from that, in which even individually they can compete with the HoT, to Revan not even being capable of ragdolling the HoT.

The disparity just isn't that big.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Which isn't a stretch, since we know the Imperial Agent can briefly delay Darth Jadus.

It's not a stretch to assume Darth Malgus can briefly choke even both Force-sensitive protagonists while the remaining non-Force sensitive unleashes his defensive shields and goes in a retreat.

I liken this to how Savage choked Dooku and Ventress at the same time in a fit of rage.



Fit of rage? There was no fit of rage. Malgus mentally afflicted the fourth member of the team, then left the other three suspended helplessly in the air without even gesturing. It wasn't "brief", either.



The "immeasurably powerful" part could be a reference to the game, but the nexus could have well existed prior to the Dread Masters' arrival:



Either way, a nexus on another level to that would be pretty powerful.



Isn't that game mechanics again?

Don't go from what? When have Satele or Marr competed with HoT, and that would probably be in sabers anyway.

*The "immeasurably powerful" part may have been a reference to the planet as you visit it in the game.

Malgus was visibly angered and yelled "enough games," further supporting the notion of a sudden burst of power that he couldn't maintain for long. Again, reference back to Jadus, who could even teleport.


Ah, now you're speculating. You can't speculate but then assign adjectives like "colossal" in regards to Revan's amp. Be more moderate. Also, the quote doesn't state that the dark side's preexistence was immeasurably powerful. It merely says there *might* have been a nexus, in some shape or form, there prior. It's the introduction of the phobis devices, however, that is mentioned in both alternatives, and changes the picture. This is visibly demonstrated in the missions as well.


You just agreed recently with my assessment on why NPC interactions should count, even if PC one's don't. I recall that being in late August.


Marr's the most powerful member of the Dark Council (bar Darth Nox) and dominated Darth Lachris in a showing far more brutal than anything we seen the HoT perform.

Shan's the blood of Revan, absorbing lightsabers, blasting open doors, forming powerful barriers, etc.

I mean, I'm actually shocked you don't think they're comparable. And no, don't respond to that point by point. I'm not interested in prolonging this head-aching debate.

EDIT: I don't recall a rebuttal to the Hero of Tython specifically being stated as being amped, BTW. That's the whole point of this debate.

Shan and Marr don't compare with the Hero, Wrath, Nox or Thor, for the record.

Well, Marr's abilities being stated as "second to none" technically ranks him above them. And since Shan's his equal, her too.

Come on man, don't make me destroy that quote. We both know he'd get curbed by any of them. Shan admits inferiority multiple times and directly states shes diminished in ability.

Isn't that entry supposed to evaluate them before the game timeline? In that case it'd make sense for the protagonists to be absent since they are padawans or acolytes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Come on man, don't make me destroy that quote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpUVQ_z6Zcs&t=0m36s

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Isn't that entry supposed to evaluate them before the game timeline? In that case it'd make sense for the protagonists to be absent since they are padawans or acolytes.
It's directly after the Battle of Ilum.

Although if we want to say before, that only makes Marr look better, since then he'd be > Malgus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's directly after the Battle of Ilum.

Although if we want to say before, that only makes Marr look better, since then he'd be > Malgus.

I see. I didn't remember about the timeline of those entries.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Malgus was visibly angered and yelled "enough games," further supporting the notion of a sudden burst of power that he couldn't maintain for long. Again, reference back to Jadus, who could even teleport.

He also talks about enjoying himself.

So how do you explain Soverus and Jensyn, then?



I'm not speculating anything. As I said, the "immeasurably powerful" part is probably referring to the nexus as it was in the game, but the possibility of a nexus being there regardless of the Phobis devices is also mentioned.



Which argument was this one?



Lachris lost to early Act 2 Barsen'thor, who's weaker than HoT. The brutality of her loss doesn't compensate for that.



I thought you meant that they actually competed in fights with him. Yes, I do think they're comparable overall.



Yes, I concede to the fact that he was amped with respect to combat effectiveness. So was Revan, though. So again, we're back to them both being amped and Revan being significantly superior. So I concede that he's significantly superior, but not immensely.

But that's only in reference to "combat effectiveness", which would be things like physicals, not Force power, since Battle Meditation doesn't affect that.