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Fighting in Mos Eisley Cantina

Vader.

*gasps

Mace. Good fight.

Originally posted by JKBart
Mace. Good fight.

He's black man tho Bart. He's inferior.

I agree with this, haven't seen any real solid victories for Vader that put him on this level. Beating fodder characters who's best achievement is managing some parity with the lowleist of fodder doesn't put him on mace's level either. His other feats - stalemating an old man and loosing to a novice don't mark him that well either.

Vader, tbh.

I disagree. Surviving against dozens of Jedi long enough for reinforcements to arrive far before his prime and dueling 4 Jedi simultaneously mid purge before growing both in skill and power puts him pretty high as a duelist for me.

So your argument is that Vader could battle randoms, in an order that is specifically noted to have degraded in Lightsaber combat -- and as per Mace Windu in attack of the clones, have diminished Force abilities that likely only get worse after the events of Revenge of the Sith? These are feats that aren't even scratching the likes of the Jedi Exile. Damn hope that Vader would improve given that Roan Shrine described his technique as a series of clunky vertical strikes. Not seeing anything that puts him on Windu's level though.

Mace very convincingly.

Mace due to vaapad. Without it, split.

What a cop out. Take away Djem so for Vader then.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Mace very convincingly.

This. Vader, with all of his hype, was suppose to be stronger in Rebels. It's true, that he has no equals there at this moment, but he was unable to stomp Tano after all. Which he should do, on DS nexus.
Maul gave Ahsoka a good fight, and then was stomped by fodder. Another fodders, the Inquisitors, were able to hold their own against her.
Even old, rusty Ben Kenobi (he is, until it wont be stated otherwise) held his own against him quite comfortably.
So, there is nothing at this moment, that would suggest, that Vader might be at least Mace's equal.

All considered, Vader's pretty shit. But he was never intended to be part of the elite tier considering Lucas basically stated he couldn't compete with Jedi in their primes, calling him a crippled half-robot.

Some top tier cancer being bandied about in this thread. Lmao.

Originally posted by JKBart
Mace. Good fight.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Some top tier cancer being bandied about in this thread. Lmao.

Agreed, there are too many pedoface bandits gushing over Vader's singed nutsack, thinking he's remotely comparable to Mace.

You say that as if you didn't create the thread. mmm

Who the **** are you, comicvine? GTFO

You sound mad Ziggy, sry if I triggered you.

There are only 4 duelist I place above Mace, and Vader isn't one of them.

Should be a titanic fight nonetheless.

Not sure

But Bane probably dies

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
There are only 4 duelist I place above Mace, and Vader isn't one of them.

Should be a titanic fight nonetheless.
Luke, Sidious, Yoda and...Anakin?

Anakin isn't ahead of Mace

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
in an order that is specifically noted to have degraded in Lightsaber combat


Roan Shrine described his technique as a series of clunky vertical strikes. Not seeing anything that puts him on Windu's level though.

Quote?

Conveniently not acknowledging this was at the beginning of the novel weeks after he was placed in the suit and by end of the novel Roan completely reversed his opinions.

Not to mention Vader should be more experienced and thus more skilled then Anakin and he's already confirmed to have grown in power.

Mace is more skilled but Vader is the better product.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Anakin isn't ahead of Mace
Yes, he is :/
Tho Mace is, along with Dooku and maybe Exar, the sixth best duelist of the mythos.

Exar isn't a top 6 duelist, lmao. Vader is above him, hell, Revan prolly is, too.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Exar isn't a top 6 duelist, lmao. Vader is above him, hell, Revan prolly is, too.
Nah, I could see Vader being above, equal or under him, tbh. An slight marigin, by any means.

Exar has done nothing to place him above Vader, lmao. Or to tie him either, really.

The onyl thing, why I have Exar momentary >=Vader as duelist, is his speed, tbh.
But I 'll look now after their feats, lol. Maybe I forgot something.

What speed advantage does Kun supposedly have? His feats are outright inferior, honestly.

Pure sabers? Windu.

Mace > Anakin in sabers

Originally posted by JKBart
Mace < Anakin in sabers
Fixed.

Windu, probably.

Great fight, though.

Originally posted by MythLord
Windu, probably.

Great fight, though.

Are you Wolf Myth from Comic Vine?

No, he is Intrepid37, he made that nick to troll that he is WollfMyth tho

SOmeone must have a thing for Wolf then, prolly got bodied lol.

Originally posted by Dread Dark
SOmeone must have a thing for Wolf then, prolly got bodied lol.
Wollf laid ****ed his ex, so...

Wollf Myth? Eww. He deserves to burn in hell.

I am Rick Harrison, and this is my pawn shop.

Originally posted by MythLord
Wollf Myth? Eww. He deserves to burn in hell.

I am Rick Harrison, and this is my pawn shop.

.........yeah he did or said something to you.

Originally posted by MythLord
Wollf Myth? Eww. He deserves to burn in hell.

I am Rick Harrison, and this is my pawn shop. You're not Wollf Myth? Lmao.

Originally posted by MythLord
Wollf Myth? Eww. He deserves to burn in hell.

I am Rick Harrison, and this is my pawn shop.
C'mon, only because he had something with your ex.
He got his herpes from her,

Originally posted by Dread Dark
.........yeah he did or said something to you.

He existed. The biggest crime ever. One of his friends told me he has leukemia.

He's currently dying of cancer and good riddance to him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You're not Wollf Myth? Lmao.

Obviously not. He's a washed up has-been who once trolled the forums, then got a bit serious, then started licking Nova's c0ck because he gets pwned up the @$$ by anyone he debates.

Never compare me to him, tbh.

Lmao xD

Originally posted by MythLord
He existed. The biggest crime ever. One of his friends told me he has leukemia.

He's currently dying of cancer and good riddance to him.



Obviously not. He's a washed up has-been who once trolled the forums, then got a bit serious, then started licking Nova's c0ck because he gets pwned up the @$$ by anyone he debates.

Never compare me to him, tbh.

Then why do you have an uncanny resemblence?

Obviously something he did, drew some animosity outta you.

OR this is the internet rage/trolling....but rage has a source, as does trolling.

Originally posted by Dread Dark
Then why do you have an uncanny resemblence?

Obviously something he did, drew some animosity outta you.

OR this is the internet rage/trolling....but rage has a source, as does trolling.
Wollf is an *******, tbh.

Originally posted by Dread Dark
Then why do you have an uncanny resemblence?

I dunno? Why do you have a resemblence to DarkDefender/Syndicate/UCanShootMyNova? Are you an alt? You must be an alt!

See, this is where your logic fails. Wollf(cannot even spell Wolf right, lmao XD) is simply cancer in his arguments and now he's dying of cancer, which is good. I am surprised he didn't get AIDS from all the b@ll licking he did when he practically worshipped those who wreck him on a daily basis.

Originally posted by Dread Dark
Obviously something he did, drew some animosity outta you.

He existed. If you knew Wollf, you'd realize how awful that is.

Originally posted by Dread Dark
OR this is the internet rage/trolling....but rage has a source, as does trolling.

Like I said, his mere existance is diabetes-enducing.

Originally posted by MythLord
I dunno? Why do you have a resemblence to DarkDefender/Syndicate/UCanShootMyNova? Are you an alt? You must be an alt!

See, this is where your logic fails. Wollf(cannot even spell Wolf right, lmao XD) is simply cancer in his arguments and now he's dying of cancer, which is good. I am surprised he didn't get AIDS from all the b@ll licking he did when he practically worshipped those who wreck him on a daily basis.



He existed. If you knew Wollf, you'd realize how awful that is.



Like I said, his mere existance is diabetes-enducing.


Your getting even more defensive, even redirecting it back to me. Unfortunately I dont have much to be shot at.

But you and Wollf must have had a heated rivalry, your still finding time to take shots whenever you can.

So im curious.....what did he do.....to YOU?

Mace

Originally posted by Dread Dark
Your getting even more defensive, even redirecting it back to me. Unfortunately I dont have much to be shot at.

No, I'm noting how you comparing me to him is just cancer-enducing, like Wollf's actual arguments. You're probably an alt of Wollf, huh?

Originally posted by Dread Dark
But you and Wollf must have had a heated rivalry, your still finding time to take shots whenever you can.

Rivalry implies he has some form of parity with me... That is not the case. I wreck him day in and day out. Or would, if he had the guts to debate me.

Originally posted by Dread Dark
So im curious.....what did he do.....to YOU?

Like I said, he existed. His arguments are downright awful, his reasoning behind them even worse, and if you talk to him you realize he's an emotionally unstable @$$hole who cares about nobody but himself.

I hear Wollfmyth goes under the name of Wulf Mknight on Youtube nowdays

Originally posted by MythLord
No, I'm noting how you comparing me to him is just cancer-enducing, like Wollf's actual arguments. You're probably an alt of Wollf, huh?



Rivalry implies he has some form of parity with me... That is not the case. I wreck him day in and day out. Or would, if he had the guts to debate me.



Like I said, he existed. His arguments are downright awful, his reasoning behind them even worse, and if you talk to him you realize he's an emotionally unstable @$$hole who cares about nobody but himself.

Unfortunately, I have never seen him act as such. But he did disappear from You tube................idk why.

And do you have links of how bad you killed his arguments?

*SHAMELESS PLUG* I did get him on his Zannah opinion more than once but that was (to me) in good fun.

Now with all that set and done....why did you choose that name then....it reminds me of him alot.

But it is true...he pissed you off, I just wanna know when and where it seems funny.

lol xD

Originally posted by Dread Dark
Unfortunately, I have never seen him act as such. But he did disappear from You tube................idk why.

And do you have links of how bad you killed his arguments?

*SHAMELESS PLUG* I did get him on his Zannah opinion more than once but that was (to me) in good fun.

Now with all that set and done....why did you choose that name then....it reminds me of him alot.

But it is true...he pissed you off, I just wanna know when and where it seems funny.
I can search if I have still screenshots of their debates in the XT comments. Shall I?

Originally posted by Dread Dark
Unfortunately, I have never seen him act as such. But he did disappear from You tube................idk why.

Well, then you don't know WollfMyth. A dude exposed him for the liar he is, twice so far.

And he did disappear when he himself realized he has a lot less time to live, and how his videos were cancer. They were, very much so.

Originally posted by Dread Dark
And do you have links of how bad you killed his arguments?

Originally posted by Dread Dark
*SHAMELESS PLUG* I did get him on his Zannah opinion more than once but that was (to me) in good fun.

Ah, so you stomped Wollf, too? If YT fodder stomps him, he really is worthless, lmao.

Originally posted by Dread Dark
Now with all that set and done....why did you choose that name then....it reminds me of him alot.

You mean the Myth part? That means Zenwolf must be Wollf Myth because he has Wolf in his name... Makes no sense, you see. The same word in a name =/= the same person, otherwise EvanNova is ShootingNova.

Originally posted by Dread Dark
But it is true...he pissed you off, I just wanna know when and where it seems funny.

He's just annoying as a debater, and annoying as a person. First, it was like whatever... But now he's just grasping for attention.

Originally posted by MythLord
otherwise EvanNova is ShootingNova.
Is he?

Originally posted by MythLord








The same word in a name =/= the same person, otherwise EvanNova is ShootingNova.


.


I knew it

Wouldn't surprise me tbh.

U guys r derailing from Wollf Myth h8!

Da banter must continue! Wollf shall fall!

He's not important enough for me to care.

Neither is the sh!t on my shoe. Still need to wipe it off. This will increase Wollf's chances of leaving the forum, tbh.

I'll send you a GH message, why WollfMyth is an idiot.

Originally posted by MythLord
The same word in a name =/= the same person, otherwise EvanNova is ShootingNova. Figures.

Also, we know you are Wollf Myth.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Figures.

Also, we know you are Wollf Myth.

KEK. I'm not that cancerous, Beni, tbh.

Vader

Alrighty then, I forgot where we were......ahhh yes Where is the exposed thing again?

I need those links to show this

This seems interesting.

Windu wins.

Vader wins.

Can I actually hear some cases for Vader? Butchering fodder? Narrowly beating people like Roan Shryne?

Originally posted by playa1258
Vader wins. So you believe a guy who can't get a decisive advantage over a clearly diminshed Kenobi beats the guy who beat Sidious.

Mace wins. More skilled, more agile.

Vader wins. More skilled, physically stronger, more powerful and thus better precognition and reflexes, has a higher pain tolerance, has a higher base durability and is likely faster in regards to combat speed.

This is fun isn't it Nova.

Basis for him being more skilled? Vader's not faster and Mace can contend with his strength. Don't really care for durability or pain tolerance, but that should've been obvious. Not that it's one of the more important factors in dueling anyway.

Having only grown more skilled and experienced during his time as Vader and from ANH to ESB along with being confirmed to have grown more powerful both in Legends and canon? Lmao.

Vader is faster then anyone Ferus ever saw aside from Yoda and we know the Council Members often held sparring matches for the padawans.

Hmm... I have a tendency to think these are Legends versions. Where Vader is weaker than Anakin, at least in sabers.

That's no proof Ferus saw Mace in action.

Growing more powerful doesn't make you more skilled. Vader's adversary in ANH, Ben Kenobi, speaks to that.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Vader is faster then anyone Ferus ever saw aside from Yoda and we know the Council Members often held sparring matches for the padawans.

Honestly padawans shouldn't even perceive duels between council members.

They may well have held back for that purpose

Originally posted by SunRazer
Hmm... I have a tendency to think these are Legends versions. Where Vader is weaker than Anakin, at least in sabers.

That's no proof Ferus saw Mace in action.

Growing more powerful doesn't make you more skilled. Vader's adversary in ANH, Ben Kenobi, speaks to that.

Quote?

Why not? He was a youngling for over a decade. We know the CM's sparred for the benefit of the younglings and this is even confirmed in the canon Kanan comic as well. I don't see any reason to think he hadn't though that would only place Vader about TPM-AotC Mace.

It makes you have superior precognition, perception, reflexes and augmentation though. I've come to terms that Obi Wan as Old Ben likely isn't far from his RotS incarnation though I didn't want to accept it for a long time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Honestly padawans shouldn't even perceive duels between council members.

Considering Obi Wan and Anakin were able to actually percieve sub light fighters as dots of light I'm inclined to believe a Force user's perception is going to be far greater then the speed they're capable of moving at with augmentation.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Quote?

Not using Insider #62 quotes, since it's outdated.



There's supposed to be another one but I can't find it at the moment.



Well, as you said, it's pre-prime Mace, but just because some CM's sparred in front of Younglings doesn't mean that he necessarily saw Mace. And even if he did, Mace has a tendency to hold back in spars, unless I'm missing something.



Not necessarily. And Old Ben is also described as a shadow of his former self in Insider #62, not to mention Death Star and Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force also claiming that he had deteriorated from both age and lack of practice. He isn't "far" from RotS Obi-Wan, but that doesn't mean he's close, either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not using Insider #62 quotes, since it's outdated.



There's supposed to be another one but I can't find it at the moment.



Well, as you said, it's pre-prime Mace, but just because some CM's sparred in front of Younglings doesn't mean that he necessarily saw Mace. And even if he did, Mace has a tendency to hold back in spars, unless I'm missing something.



Not necessarily. And Old Ben is also described as a shadow of his former self in Insider #62, not to mention Death Star and Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force also claiming that he had deteriorated from both age and lack of practice. He isn't "far" from RotS Obi-Wan, but that doesn't mean he's close, either.

It says Vader fought cautiously and implies that his motions were reduced which makes sense given we know Vader's mobility is reduced as a result of the suit. We know he makes up for this other ways though as is confirmed in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader and The Force Unleashed.

I'm saying it's likely he did see him. And while I acknowledge Mace probably grew throughout the Clone Wars I disagree with you on the margin. Also proof that Mace has a tendency for holding back in spars?

Granted but we know it's likely in an outright duel Vader isn't going to dominate a for the most part defensive fighter like RotS Kenobi especially with his hampered motion and it would likely be a long battle of attrition. Old Ben grew in power but atrophied in skill which should mean Vader would be able to press him better then he would RotS Kenobi but of course not to the point he'd be dominating Old Ben either which as we see is the case in their fight.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It says Vader fought cautiously and implies that his motions were reduced which makes sense given we know Vader's mobility is reduced as a result of the suit. We know he makes up for this other ways though as is confirmed in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader and The Force Unleashed.

Regrettably, I haven't been able to find my third quote. I only have Insider #62's "shadow of a former self" and the "armor reduced his actions" quote from LGWF. The "reduced his actions" part does still imply inferiority to RotS Anakin in that regard. But perhaps a feat-based comparison would work as well?



Perhaps.



The Vos spar.



Which is why growing more powerful doesn't always lead to better skill. Or even increased augmentations. That requires increased mastery of those abilities on one's part as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
But perhaps a feat-based comparison would work as well?

The Vos spar.

Which is why growing more powerful doesn't always lead to better skill. Or even increased augmentations. That requires increased mastery of those abilities on one's part as well.

Sure.

The Vos spar? He sparred with Depa in canon as well to test her health and he obviously wasn't going all out to prevent reinjuring her. Was his spar with Vos something similar?

His limitation is due to his mental/emotional frame of mind in facing Kenobi and his reduced mobility by the suit rather then his increased power not providing him with superior augmentation though.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Sure.

The Vos spar? He sparred with Depa in canon as well to test her health and he obviously wasn't going all out to prevent reinjuring her. Was his spar with Vos something similar?

His limitation is due to his mental/emotional frame of mind in facing Kenobi and his reduced mobility by the suit rather then his increased power not providing him with superior augmentation though.

1. What feats/accolades are better on Vader's part?

2. He was obviously going very casual on Vos (he even had his back turned to him at times), and refrained from going all-out until Vos showed Vaapad, at which point Mace ended the fight immediately. Not to mention that Dooku and Kolar etc. stomped Vos immediately around this time, so obviously Mace was holding back.

Also the fact that he's equal to Saesee in their spar, even though we know he's better.

3. Perhaps. Mace's agility edge remains the most pertinent of all physical edges in this fight, IMO.

Stalemating 4 Jedi simultaneously early on in the Purge, surviving against dozens of Jedi long enough for reinforcements to arrive and being solidly above Starkiller as a lightsaber combatant not long before the OT. These feats are just the foundation I base my opinions though given I believe his logical increase in skill from his Anakin incarnation and confirmed growth in power is enough to place him above as a lightsaber combatant.

Granted if he sparred for padawans he probably couldn't move at his full speed against another master without defeating them quickly but perhaps he took part in similar demonstrations as Yoda where he could have put his full speed on display ( Yoda blitzing 3 armed masters bereft of a lightsaber ).

I think Vader's strength comes close but the agility is likely the most relevant physical factor in regards to a Vader and Mace fight though combat speed which I feel favors Vader could top it.

Pretty sure it was less than a dozen and they fought Vader 1 at a time more or less. And I hope those 4 Jedi aren't the wounded agricultural corp Jedi he fights in RoDV, lol.

Also Starkiller > Vader in sabers in the games.

1. ANH Vader was also losing to the Maul clone Or at best, if we take the Dark Side Prophets' commentary, they were about even.

Mace being in the same tier as Yoda and Sidious as a swordsman, a tier above Obi-Wan, and having equality with Dooku, who's held his own against Yoda, held his own against Obi-Wan + Anakin, defeated Grievous easily many times, etc. is above Vader.

Vader fought the Jedi in a contest of more than just skill, if we're thinking of the same instance.

2. Yeah, so you're just wildly speculating now. The point's lost.

3. Mace can contend with Vader's strength just fine. Agility appeared a major problem for Vader when he fought the Maul clone.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pretty sure it was less than a dozen and they fought Vader 1 at a time more or less. And I hope those 4 Jedi aren't the wounded agricultural corp Jedi he fights in RoDV, lol.

Also Starkiller > Vader in sabers in the games.

It was multiple dozens if I recall correctly.

No it was from a comic not the RoDV novel.

Starkiller or Galen?

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. ANH Vader was also losing to the Maul clone

Mace being in the same tier as Yoda and Sidious as a swordsman and equality with Dooku, who's held his own against Yoda, held his own against Obi-Wan + Anakin, defeated Grievous easily many times, etc. is above Vader.

Vader fought the Jedi in a contest of more than just skill, if we're thinking of the same instance.

2. Yeah, so you're just wildly speculating now. The point's lost.

3. Mace can contend with Vader's strength just fine. Agility appeared a major problem for Vader when he fought the Maul clone.

1. Who's capabilities we don't know considering it could have been a manifested Force illusion or an actual clone. Personally I favor the former given that's a simpler solution then actually cloning Maul and putting implanted memories into him and then convincing him to fight Vader.

Mace defeated Grievous? As far as I'm aware he dropped a ship on him once, Force crushed him in the miniseries, and was even in lightsaber combat with a Grievous more hindered then him in LoE.

We already know the tiers are extremely wonky and not suitable for actual use in debate given the placement of certain characters and their performances against certain members of other tiers despite what we're told about the vast difference between tiers.

Mace during the Clone Wars was stated to maybe be a match for Dooku on neutral ground. Nothing was confirmed. And Dooku himself could hold off Yoda but was not his equal.

Mace was unable to even react as his fellow Jedi were slaughtered around him. He's no peer of Sidious or Yoda as a lightsaber combatant.

2. I'm saying it's not unreasonable that in one of the many spars the CM's took part in Mace would have gotten the chance to demonstrate his full speed.

3. Honestly that depends on Force power in relation to augmentation. But for the sake of the debate I'll put that to the side.

A side question that'll determine your stance on something. Do you take the TFU and TFUII cutscenes and scripted events into account?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Who's capabilities we don't know considering it could have been a manifested Force illusion or an actual clone. Personally I favor the former given that's a simpler solution then actually cloning Maul and putting implanted memories into him and then convincing him to fight Vader.

It's supposed to be a resurrection of Maul, and I believe the authors talked about how they wanted this to answer fan questions on Maul vs Vader? So if you consider its ability different to that of TPM Maul's, the onus is on you to prove it.



Read. I said Dooku defeated Grievous repeatedly, and Mace is Dooku's equal.



I found the quote for Anakin being tier 7, so the tiering system begins to make sense again. It was only the strange quote about "four levels" between AotC and RotS.



Actually, the quote says Mace might have been the only Jedi who was equal to Dooku, not that he might have been equal to Dooku. So yeah, it's a pretty solid confirmation.

Not to mention that we know Mace was a factually better duelist than Dooku when the two were Jedi, so if anything, Mace would still be better, not the other way around. The equality quote is the only thing preventing that from happening.



You don't need to repeat what I said.



According to a supplementary source. Both the RotS novel and the film disagree, as Mace is visibly shown fighting Sidious before Kit Fisto dies. And guess what takes precedence?



Doubt it, and it's also possible that Ferus simply wasn't there for few ones where he did show his full speed. The possibility games go both ways.



A wise decision.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
A side question that'll determine your stance on something. Do you take the TFU and TFUII cutscenes and scripted events into account?

Cutscenes, yeah.

You know Starkiller has physically thrown TIE fighters in cutscenes.

Great. You concede on the rest?

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's supposed to be a resurrection of Maul, and I believe the authors talked about how they wanted this to answer fan questions on Maul vs Vader? So if consider it's ability different to that of TPM Maul's, the onus is on you to prove it.



Read. I said Dooku defeated Grievous repeatedly, and Mace is Dooku's equal.



I found the quote for Anakin being tier 7, so the tiering system begins to make sense again. It was only the strange quote about "four levels" between AotC and RotS.



Actually, the quote says Mace might have been the only Jedi who was equal to Dooku, not that he might have been equal to Dooku. So yeah, it's a pretty solid confirmation.

Not to mention that we know Mace was a factually better duelist than Dooku when the two were Jedi, so if anything, Mace would still be better, not the other way around. The equality quote is the only thing preventing that from happening.



You don't need to repeat what I said.



According to a supplementary source. Both the RotS novel and the film disagree, as Mace is visibly shown fighting Sidious before Kit Fisto dies. And guess what takes precedence?



Doubt it, and it's also possible that Ferus simply wasn't there for few ones where he did show his full speed. The possibility games go both ways.



A wise decision.

1. Could you provide the quote please?

Ah, Dooku may be above Vader in technical skill but as an overall lightsaber combatant I think he'd lose and based on his fight with Anakin the logical gap in skill between Dooku and Vader should be marginal.

I'm referring to Mace being put on the same tier as Sidious and Yoda despite his performance against Sidious in the novel when unamped.

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground"

What was dat boi?

Except that Dooku has confirmed to have grown greatly in power upon his conversion to the Darkside where he would have expanded his knowledge and power greatly under Sidious's tutelage whereas Mace has no such confirmation or base for growth.

And you don't need to be condescending.

They're both G canon so neither. And Mace reacting after 2 of his allies have been slain doesn't speak well for his "parity" either.

2. Why would Ferus have missed a spar between CM's? Even if he was allowed to what youngling wouldn't want to see masters that they admire go at it in an epic clash?

3. Oh really? If you want to be pompous about it then I'll ask you what feats of strength Mace has comparable to physically ragdolling TIE's.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Great. You concede on the rest?

Take it back. I will be making an issue of physical strength in relation to force power.

You should take mercy when it's granted to you Novie. :Y

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Could you provide the quote please?

"There are ways those who are no more can live again".

"We took it upon ourselves to resurrect a proper apprentice for the master... rather than tolerate one who is tainted."



We're talking about skill. And in overall combat, Anakin > Vader.



You don't really see his performance against Sidious when unamped?



"Perhaps only Mace Windu was his equal", not "Mace Windu was perhaps his equal". So it's confirmed. The "perhaps" means that there might be someone else who's an equal of Dooku - ie. Anakin Skywalker.



Didn't you just give up on arguing that power growth = combat growth? Mace grew after his experience on Haruun Kal, IIRC. For Dooku, you can bring up that Insider quote where it's claimed that his lightsaber skills got even more formidable when he joined the dark side.



I'm not. Although I'm very tempted to be right now.



There's no G-Canon, but if it were, it'd be the novel and the film. Not The Complete Visual Dictionary, which is the source claiming that Mace couldn't reach.



I don't know. Maybe he was going to his modelling trials?

My point is that this is all baseless speculation. And even if Vader was faster, would that make an impact here?



There's nothing pompous. I'm saying it's wise because we both know there's nothing to be gained from continuing the discussion. You're overreacting, as usual

Show me where he's physically ragdolled TIE's. And Mace breaking out of the grips of Gundarks in media where portrayals of the Force are suppressed like in TCW, relative to exaggerated ones in TFU, is comparable.

Or causing a shockwave that sent Magnaguards flying by charging at Dooku, though you can argue that telekinesis was involved.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"There are ways those who are no more can live again".

"We took it upon ourselves to resurrect a proper apprentice for the master... rather than tolerate one who is tainted."



We're talking about skill. And in overall combat, Anakin > Vader.



You don't really see his performance against Sidious when unamped?



"Perhaps only Mace Windu was his equal", not "Mace Windu was perhaps his equal". So it's confirmed. The "perhaps" means that there might be someone else who's an equal of Dooku - ie. Anakin Skywalker.





I'm not. Although I'm very tempted to be right now.



There's no G-Canon, but if it were, it'd be the novel and the film. Not The Complete Visual Dictionary, which is the source claiming that Mace couldn't reach.



I don't know. Maybe he was going to his modelling trials?

My point is that this is all baseless speculation. And even if Vader was faster, would that make an impact here?



There's nothing pompous. I'm saying it's wise because we both know there's nothing to be gained from continuing the discussion. You're overreacting, as usual

Show me where he's physically ragdolled TIE's. And Mace breaking out of the grips of Gundarks in media where portrayals of the Force are suppressed like in TCW, relative to exaggerated ones in TFU, is comparable.

Or causing a shockwave by charging at Dooku, though you can argue that telekinesis may have been involved.

1. The quote from the author you referred to.

Why? Vader would hold the same advantages over Dooku as Anakin ( to larger degrees even ) except in mobility.

We see he can't react to Sidious when unamped.

"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal" not "Perhaps Mace Windu was his equal."

Maybe you're doing it unconsciously.

I'm not using as the source to back up my assertion. I'm using the novel and Mace's actions within it.

That Vader potentially has a slight advantage in combative speed.

"After avoiding an Imperial dropship, Starkiller comes to a large tower, which he knocks down by throwing several TIE fighters at it." - TFUII Prima Guide.

There's a cutscene of it but I'd have to look through the TFUII gameplay videos.

Using the exaggerated medium argument Nova? Really? :/

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Exar has done nothing to place him above Vader, lmao. Or to tie him either, really.

LMAO. He stalemated an Ulic immensely more powerful than the one who stomped Warb Null, a master swordsman with the combative experience and knowledge of Freedon Nadd, who rivals Tulak Hord in Jedi kills. Whilst Kun was prr-prime and wasn't using the style that made him 'virtually unstoppable' in a lightsaber duel and allowed him to give a Weapon Master in Vodo Siosk-Baas, the most skilled Jedi duelist in the combative prime of the Jedi Order, no chance at all.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. The quote from the author you referred to.

I'll have to find it. Pretty sure Erkan was the one who posted it, funnily enough.

In any event, I don't need it. It's now up to you to prove that this incarnation of Maul has distinct abilities from the TPM incarnation, since I proved that it was a resurrection.



He seems less skilled than Anakin.



Where? He's amped virtually the entire time against Sidious.



You don't really understand the quote, do you?

"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal" - the "perhaps" isn't calling into question whether or not Mace is his equal, but calling into question whether or not he's the only one. So as I said, the comparison itself is concrete.



You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.



What actions? In the novel, Saesee and Agen move up ahead of Mace and get cut down immediately. Mace reacts in time to fight with Kit, all the same.



Doubt it's anything meaningful. Vader wasn't outspeeding RotJ Luke, whose speed feats Mace has matched.



That sounds like telekinesis. Regardless, gundarks seem capable of doing that, and Mace broke out of their grip.



It is true, though. Regardless, RotJ Luke matched Vader's strength fine. I'm not seeing why Mace wouldn't, given his own showings.

Going to bed. Will respond tomorrow.

Originally posted by AncientPower
LMAO. He stalemated an Ulic immensely more powerful than the one who stomped Warb Null, a master swordsman with the combative experience and knowledge of Freedon Nadd, who rivals Tulak Hord in Jedi kills. Whilst Kun was prr-prime and wasn't using the style that made him 'virtually unstoppable' in a lightsaber duel and allowed him to give a Weapon Master in Vodo Siosk-Baas, the most skilled Jedi duelist in the combative prime of the Jedi Order, no chance at all.

Yes, yes, yes, dahling. I'm well aware of all Exar showings having read the comic myself, and debater this topic with you and others countless times in the past.

I'm still not seeing anything that would rank him above Vader at all.

How about the reverse - what has Vader done that's better than Exar?

How about tomorrow in the appropriate thread, 'kay?

@Nova and the other Nova

I think in Dark Empire Sheev mentions Vader's incompetence in comparison to his younger self, stating Vader is a "sick man behind the mask" compared to what he once was. Though maybe that's outdated. mmm

Nee

Boom Maul haters. "He was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku"
Suck nuts

"Like him" as in just a tool. "Like him" as in an actually skilled tool.

Maul is sh!t and should remain sh!t.

Exactly, they're all tools. Vader isn't some god :/

Naturally. Vader and Tyranus aren't shit like Maul, tho.

Maul sucks, agreed, but what I really wanted to highlight is the softening gap between Dooku and Vader as duelists. Really, Dooku has some quality notches under his belt, all who come with a reference list of their own feats and accolades to credit their respective skills, while most of the names Vader has beaten are virtually featless, said to have declined in skill or are holistically crap.

Held his own against Yoda
Beaten Mace Windu in sparring practices
Beaten Obi-Wan and Anakin consecutively
Beaten Tholme and Sora Bulq simultaneously
Beaten Quinlan Vos
Beaten Grievous several times
Beaten Asajj Ventress

Vader has:
Beaten the Dark Woman
Beaten Celeste Morne
Beaten Roan Shryne
Fought as an equal with Luke
Fought as an equal with Old ben
Beaten Ashoka Tano

Originally posted by SunRazer
Mace has a tendency to hold back in spars, unless I'm missing something.

I'd say every jedi has that tendency (Luke and Fisto comes to mind as actual example). What's the point of sparring if you curb your opponents?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Maul sucks, agreed, but what I really wanted to highlight is the softening gap between Dooku and Vader as duelists. Really, Dooku has some quality notches under his belt, all who come with a reference list of their own feats and accolades to credit their respective skills, while most of the names Vader has beaten are virtually featless, said to have declined in skill or are holistically crap.

Held his own against Yoda
Beaten Mace Windu in sparring practices
Beaten Obi-Wan and Anakin consecutively
Beaten Tholme and Sora Bulq simultaneously
Beaten Quinlan Vos
Beaten Grievous several times
Beaten Asajj Ventress

Vader has:
Beaten the Dark Woman
Beaten Celeste Morne
Beaten Roan Shryne
Fought as an equal with Luke
Fought as an equal with Old ben
Beaten Ashoka Tano

I mean, Tyranus and Mace have always been greater than Vader saber-wise, but Vader's hype, knowledge, raw power and physicals make it an extremely good fight. But yeah, playing feat wars supports both Windu and Dooku over Anakin's mechanical half.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I'd say every jedi has that tendency (Luke and Fisto comes to mind as actual example). What's the point of sparring if you curb your opponents?

Then my point is even stronger.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll have to find it. Pretty sure Erkan was the one who posted it, funnily enough.

In any event, I don't need it. It's now up to you to prove that this incarnation of Maul has distinct abilities from the TPM incarnation, since I proved that it was a resurrection.



He seems less skilled than Anakin.



Where? He's amped virtually the entire time against Sidious.



You don't really understand the quote, do you?

"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal" - the "perhaps" isn't calling into question whether or not Mace is his equal, but calling into question whether or not he's the only one. So as I said, the comparison itself is concrete.



You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.



What actions? In the novel, Saesee and Agen move up ahead of Mace and get cut down immediately. Mace reacts in time to fight with Kit, all the same.



Doubt it's anything meaningful. Vader wasn't outspeeding RotJ Luke, whose speed feats Mace has matched.



That sounds like telekinesis. Regardless, gundarks seem capable of doing that, and Mace broke out of their grip.



It is true, though. Regardless, RotJ Luke matched Vader's strength fine. I'm not seeing why Mace wouldn't, given his own showings.

You haven't proved that though... Even if this Maul were a clone it doesn't mean his capabilities would be the same. Regardless Vader's performance against an opponent of TPM Maul's caliber isn't relevant to his capabilities decades later.

Regardless of what he seems he logically is more skilled meaning it doesn't matter.

At the beginning of his fight when his team mates are blitzed.

Pleas prove that. I think it's saying "perhaps he would've been or perhaps not." Not that perhaps only Mace would implying more people also could've been his equal. Explain why your interpretation is more valid then mine.

I'm sorry but I just checked the fight scene and read the passage for it and nowhere in either of those do Saesee or Agen take the lead. The movie has Mace at the forefront and the novel has Sidious blitzing Agen so quickly that Fisto and Mace only have time to raise their blades.

Except Luke matching Mace is a speed feat superior to Mace if indeed Vader is faster which is the point. You can't use reverse scaling to assign a speed for RotJ Luke. Lmao.

What is the demonstrated strength of a gundark?

It wouldn't make much of a difference in the fight but the advantage should be noted.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You haven't proved that though... Even if this Maul were a clone it doesn't mean his capabilities would be the same. Regardless Vader's performance against an opponent of TPM Maul's caliber isn't relevant to his capabilities decades later.

It's a direct resurrection of him from TPM Maul. Why would there be any disparity in combative prowess? If such a thing exists, then it is your burden to prove it, not mine to disprove what doesn't exist.



Again, based on what? If it's a direct resurrection of TPM Maul, what "logic" would dictate that Maul had grown stronger?



He was standing away from them. In the film, you clearly see him getting into a battle-ready position as soon as Sidious lands, even before Agen was impaled. Since Sidious spun away from Mace to strike Saesee next, it's obvious that Mace couldn't have followed up on Agen's death. Of course Sidious is faster, but the film doesn't show a blitz-tier difference.



Because my interpretation's correct. I don't want to sound pompous, but that's simply what the text says.

"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal". Please, explain the words that prove that Mace might not have been his equal. "Perhaps"? That's in accordance with "only", which results in "perhaps only" - which, as I said, suggests that there might have been others. There's no part of the text that suggests that Mace might've been a lesser duelist than Dooku. Ask anyone else on the forum.



Then you weren't checking hard enough.



Kolar and Tiin moved in towards Sidious, so obviously they'd be prone to being blitzed, and Mace wouldn't be able to respond in time.

For the movie, Mace clearly moves back once Sidious does his snarly-spin.



The RotJ novel would imply that Luke moving at a speed within the breadth of thought would be sufficient to fight Vader with no noticeable disparity. Mace has done that.

Regardless, if you agree that Jedi Council Members sometimes spar with one another without holding themselves back, then Mace has contended with Yoda, which is beyond any speed feat from Luke or Vader. And is proof that Sidious can't blitz him.



I'm pretty sure you can approximate the strength of beasts from their size. As far as Legends go, they were sometimes favored in gladiatorial combat against rancors, which would suggest that their strength was comparable.



My point about Mace's agility being the most pertinent physical advantage here still stands.

*Sigh*

You're going to make this a regular part of my schedule aren't you?

Originally posted by SunRazer
"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal". Please, explain the words that prove that Mace might not have been his equal. "Perhaps"? That's in accordance with "only", which results in "perhaps only" - which, as I said, suggests that there might have been others. There's no part of the text that suggests that Mace might've been a lesser duelist than Dooku. Ask anyone else on the forum.



It's especially true if you consider the timeline. By Y: DR Anakin at the very least should be Dooku's equal, if not superior.

Not to mention that Mace was a factually better duelist before Dooku left the Order. Dooku grew, but so did Mace (Zoltan or someone else, can you fetch me the quote about him improving after Haruun Kal?), so it makes little sense that Dooku would now surpass the younger Mace. And the abundance of sources and portrayals of them as equals only strengthens the point.

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not to mention that Mace was a factually better duelist before Dooku left the Order. Dooku grew, but so did Mace (Zoltan or someone else, can you fetch me the quote about him improving after Haruun Kal?), so it makes little sense that Dooku would now surpass the younger Mace. And the abundance of sources and portrayals of them as equals only strengthens the point.
Lol? Myth should be our new Tyranist Emperor
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t633160.html

He failed miserably in that, lol.

I found a quote that says Jedi Dooku is >/= TPM Mace... Now we can apply Dooku's logically superior power-growth to the matter and Tyranus ends up being superior.

If nothing else, I completely demolished any theory that Dooku is inferior to Mace, as of TPM.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He failed miserably in that, lol.
"Dooku had been reckoned one of the foremost duellists in the Jedi Order, second only to Master Yoda."

How means that TPM Mace>TPM Dooku?

"Reckoned" means character opinion. Besides, we already had quotes for that, which were also character opinion

Mace's objective one takes precedence.

On the other hand, I'm taking the quote further than any of you, using Mace's quote to prove that Dooku is the 3rd best duelist ever in the history of the Jedi Order up to and of his time. Mace is the 2nd best Jedi duelist ever up to TPM, and of course Yoda is the best. Not that a whole lot of people wank OT-era duelists above them, but just in case.

Mace's objective quotes either refer to him on the Council(which Dooku is not a part of) or were made before Dooku was a concept.

The only one that isn't fallible because of the two reasons above is from the Vehicle collection, which is a bit vague as to which Mace is refers to, though you can argue it is referring to prime Mace, so Mace eclipsed Jedi Dooku later in life, but not as of TPM.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He failed miserably in that, lol.
No.

Originally posted by MythLord
Mace's objective quotes either refer to him on the Council(which Dooku is not a part of) or were made before Dooku was a concept.

The only one that isn't fallible because of the two reasons above is from the Vehicle collection, which is a bit vague as to which Mace is refers to, though you can argue it is referring to prime Mace, so Mace eclipsed Jedi Dooku later in life, but not as of TPM.

Mace has no objective quotes marking him as a better duelist bar the one I posted, only ones marking him as more powerful, but as you say, they were retconned. Also, Dooku was stupidly retconned to being on the Council, apparently.

Anyway, I'd love to take that interpretation, but it's only taking history up to and of TPM. Otherwise, Anakin and Luke would be worth mentioning.

B-but... Dooku was literally nowhere to be seen in the Council scene in TPM...

And, from what I recall, the Vehicle collection was detailing events of AotC, thus nobody bar Mace and Yoda, at the time, could've surpassed Jedi Dooku.

He might have left before he resigned from the Order. I think it was TCW or something that said he was on the Council? Something stupid, that's for sure.

Is it? That might be a more valid explanation, actually.

Originally posted by MythLord
I found a quote that says Jedi Dooku is >/= TPM Mace... Now we can apply Dooku's logically superior power-growth to the matter and Tyranus ends up being superior.

If nothing else, I completely demolished any theory that Dooku is inferior to Mace, as of TPM. Lol at an opinion demolishing anything.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He might have left before he resigned from the Order. I think it was TCW or something that said he was on the Council? Something stupid, that's for sure.

Is it? That might be a more valid explanation, actually.

Well, then that still doesn't count since that accolade was as of TPM, specifically, so when Dooku wasn't on the Council. And damn TCW...

Yeah, I think it is. I need to ask Sentinal, though, since I'm not 100% certain.

I'm not saying that to give credence to Mace's Council accolades. I'm just saying the retcon was dumb.

Alright.

Yes, yes it was a dumb retcon.

Agree. Dooku isn't good enough for the council uhuh

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Agree. The council isn't good enough for Dooku.uhuh
Fixed.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Fixed.

True, this is what good enough for him:

http://i.imgur.com/o9RA3J0.gif

Originally posted by Beniboybling


Betrayal.

Better than this, tbh:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/20140222/4985852/mace-windu-death-o.gif

Lel @ Urs thinking that being maimed and decapitated by an emo kid is better than beating the most powerful sith of all time then being betrayed and only dying to the fall, not the lightning of the most powerful sith ever

Lel @ Zoltan thinking that purple blades compare to curved hilts.

They don't compare, no. Purple blade shits all over curved hilt. Even phagtards like Ventress have curved hilt.