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Fight takes place in Telos' Restoration Zone.

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-out

Who wins?

Both are ambushed and shot by bounty hunters hired by Czerka.

Revan.

Revan

Revan SLAUGHTERFEST.

How can you think that if you have the Exile over Malak?

the answer is obvious

He does, though. Unless he suddenly ranked the Exile under Traya.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How can you think that if you have the Exile over Malak?
What?

You recently said you have Malak ~ Dooku ~ Traya. So the Exile would be over Malak.

Exile wins at least Sabers.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You recently said you have Malak ~ Dooku ~ Traya. So the Exile would be over Malak.
Traya's better than the Exile.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Exile wins at least Sabers.
Revan spanks her in that too.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Traya's better than the Exile.

Where'd you get this from? I'm always curious to hear arguments for Traya > Exile and Exile won through PIS.

The quote stating Traya is more powerful than the Exile comes to mind.

More powerful doesn't mean you're better overall.

So how did the Exile win, then?

Besides, that quote comes from TCSWE, which is full of shit when it comes to KotOR II. It claims that Kreia tried to kill the Exile on Dantooine but fled.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So how did the Exile win, then?
By managing to kill her, I imagine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
By managing to kill her, I imagine.

But Traya was more powerful. You don't think that refers solely to Force power and that the Exile was more skilled?

It's honestly more than likely that Kreia was both more powerful and more skilled, but the Exile found another way to undermine Kreia that's more akin to her character.

The Exile was never intended to be powerful, whereas the script makes clear Kreia is to be perceived as very powerful.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's honestly more than likely that Kreia was both more powerful and more skilled, but the Exile found another way to undermine Kreia that's more akin to her character.

The Exile was never intended to be powerful, whereas the script makes clear Kreia is to be perceived as very powerful.

For what it's worth, Kreia admits that "You know as much of battle as I".

Also, if you're using TCSWE, it states that Traya wanted to kill the Exile because she felt the latter was growing in power and would become a threat to the Triumvirate, lol.

What way to "undermine"? Sion foresees that the Exile would surpass Kreia in power, lol. Heck, even Traya states that the purpose of the training was so that the Exile could become stronger than her.

Did Rahm Kota know any less of battle than Galen Marek?

Well yeah, obviously the Exile was a threat and growing and power. And I'm not soley using TCSWE. I recognize it's inconsistent. But what is consistent is Kreia's portrayal as being superior to the Exile. Hell, Avellone even states, again, that she was never intended to be powerful, just unique.

Nova this isn't a battle you should have started. The backtracking is painful to watch.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What way to "undermine"? Sion foresees that the Exile would surpass Kreia in power, lol. Heck, even Traya states that the purpose of the training was so that the Exile could become stronger than her.
I don't think Kreia's referring to power. Sion is, but I think he's just saying the Exile will defeat Kreia.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well yeah, obviously the Exile was a threat and growing and power. And I'm not soley using TCSWE. I recognize it's inconsistent. But what is consistent is Kreia's portrayal as being superior to the Exile. Hell, Avellone even states, again, that she was never intended to be powerful, just unique.

She isn't naturally powerful, that's the point (although TOR retcons that). She's unique because her "power" comes from leeching off others. She feeds off the death of hundreds, plus the hordes of Sith on the Ravager and the legion of Sith on Malachor V, as well as her five Force Bonds.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Nova this isn't a battle you should have started. The backtracking is painful to watch.

There's no backtracking. We're still on whether or not the Exile is above Traya.

You can say that when you respond in the other thread instead of pretending that you're sleeping right now.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't think Kreia's referring to power. Sion is, but I think he's just saying the Exile will defeat Kreia.

"Come to surpass her power" means exactly that

I'm trying to get to sleep. Reading these boring @ss KOTOR debates is like a warm glass of milk for me.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She isn't naturally powerful, that's the point (although TOR retcons that). She's unique because her "power" comes from leeching off others. She feeds off the death of hundreds, plus the hordes of Sith on the Ravager and the legion of Sith on Malachor V, as well as her five Force Bonds.
Unique as in "an unusual frame of mind and outlook" (his exact words), not because of her leeching.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Unique as in "an unusual frame of mind and outlook" (his exact words), not because of her leeching.

What counts as "powerful" for Avellone? Apparently you have to manipulate galaxies, stars, planets, or at the minimum, fleets

Anyways, death of the author might apply here. Future sources on the Exile (Power Beyond Belief, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, The Old Republic: Revan, The Old Republic) all contradict this "not powerful" notion.

Kreia, apparently.

Oh, the sweet irony. And no, they're rather consistent.

1. So Sion claiming that the Exile will come to surpass Kreia's power means just that.

2. I know, they're all stupid sources in their own ways. I wouldn't mind if we all reverted to just the original source, in fact. But at least there's a case here, undeniably. The Exile's one of the most powerful Jedi in history per all of these sources (bar TSCWE, but she was getting powerful enough for Kreia to fear her).

And for full context, here's my Q and A:

Q: Additionally, I would like to know your thoughts on Meetra Surik aka the Jedi Exile. I read all your interviews concerning Revan and really love how you envisioned the character. It seemed your video game portrayed the Exile as among the most powerful Jedi in history, especially thanks to her being a Wound in the Force. However, recent lore showed the Exile being tragically dismissed by Darth Nyriss with little difficulty. In your opinion, do you believe this was because she lost her wound in the Force, and therefore was not drawing off of the power of her companions, that Darth Nyriss is simply a far more powerful adversary then Darth Sion and Darth Traya appeared to be, or a different reason all together?

A: I never saw the Exile as all-powerful, only with an unusual frame of mind and outlook, which made him/her more interesting.

So, I even spoon-fed him the opportunity to say "yeah, she's among the best," and he refused.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. So Sion claiming that the Exile will come to surpass Kreia's power means just that.

2. I know, they're all stupid sources in their own ways. I wouldn't mind if we all reverted to just the original source, in fact. But at least there's a case here, undeniably.
1. Not necessarily. And not that I care for what he thinks anyway.

2. The original source being the one that has her as not powerful?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And for full context, here's my Q and A:

Q: Additionally, I would like to know your thoughts on Meetra Surik aka the Jedi Exile. I read all your interviews concerning Revan and really love how you envisioned the character. It seemed your video game portrayed the Exile as among the most powerful Jedi in history, especially thanks to her being a Wound in the Force. However, recent lore showed the Exile being tragically dismissed by Darth Nyriss with little difficulty. In your opinion, do you believe this was because she lost her wound in the Force, and therefore was not drawing off of the power of her companions, that Darth Nyriss is simply a far more powerful adversary then Darth Sion and Darth Traya appeared to be, or a different reason all together?

A: I never saw the Exile as all-powerful, only with an unusual frame of mind and outlook, which made him/her more interesting.

So, I even spoon-fed him the opportunity to say "yeah, she's among the best," and he refused.

Well, of course she's not "all-powerful". Neither is Traya.

Besides, he doesn't even answer your question. There's no justification for why she lost to Nyriss.

Honestly, the dude question dodged like a politician, lal.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
1. Not necessarily. And not that I care for what he thinks anyway.

2. The original source being the one that has her as not powerful?

1. He says "I know you will come to surpass her power". Sounds about as concrete as it could get - perhaps even authorial intent.

2. I know. Which is why I'm arguing death of the author.

"All-powerful" as in among the greatest Jedi in history, even with the wound mentioned.

He didn't even say she was semi-powerful, just unique.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. He says "I know you will come to surpass her power". Sounds about as concrete as it could get - perhaps even authorial intent.

2. I know. Which is why I'm arguing death of the author.
1. Not really. Under what context would she surpass her? And when? A decade?

2. Won't work with me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
1. Not really. Under what context would she surpass her? And when? A decade?

2. Won't work with me.

1. That depends. With her dying only a year later, if we're trying to reconcile the sources, then it's within that year. Otherwise, there's no answer.

2. Without your cooperation, I've done all I can for you.

Also, TCSWE claims that Kreia sensed the Exile from across the galaxy when she was cut off from the Force. Revan failed to do that in the novel. Kreia > Revan

1. Or she would have surpassed her if she hadn't had died.

Kreia's ability to detect wounds in the Force have always been known.

1. Sion foresees it. Unless he's seeing an alternate reality.

2. Right after she's been cut off from the Force?

Anyways, I've actually been waiting for a Kreia > Exile argument for a long time. Though my question on how the Exile managed to "undermine" her opponent for the win hasn't been answered.

The fact that she takes down Kreia's three sabers might also suggest that Kreia wasn't more skilled.

Kind of like Zoltan's theory that contradicting video game cutscenes are alternate realities.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Sion foresees it. Unless he's seeing an alternate reality.

2. Right after she's been cut off from the Force?
1. Okay, then he's wrong.

2. She's a wound in the Force.

1. Another impasse, I suppose.

2. You have to have good Force Senses to sense a Wound in the Force in the first place, lol. Especially across the galaxy.

Also, is Meetra even a Wound in the Force in the novel? I don't recall it being mentioned.

So much cancer, Exile > Traya ~\> Malak > Darth Revan.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So much cancer, Exile > Traya ~\> Malak > Darth Revan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWdD206eSv0

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWdD206eSv0

The comment section of the video you just linked buys you a free pass for all past and future sins.

Malak lost to Darth Revan. His only claim to superiority, which was mastering the Star Forge where Revan didn't, got retconned by TOR.

Anyways, I thought your quote (Ant) would be more conclusive. Her not being all-powerful doesn't convince me that Traya was intended to be her better, and the dialogue cues in-game and supplementary sources only further my point.

Irrelevant. If Traya's weaker than the Exile, then that just means she also wasn't intended to be a powerhouse like Revan.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's honestly more than likely that Kreia was both more powerful and more skilled, but the Exile found another way to undermine Kreia that's more akin to her character.


How?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Irrelevant. If Traya's weaker than the Exile, then that just means she also wasn't intended to be a powerhouse like Revan.

That's my point, actually. Neither of them are "all-powerful", so Ant's Avellone quote about them not being all-powerful doesn't prove that Traya's stronger than the Exile

Not to mention that Kreia commends the Exile on her strength at several points in the game. Most notably when she instantly learns techniques that Masters spend years trying to learn with no success.

@Ant - TCSWE claims that the Exile was a former student of Kreia's, lmfao.

Anyway, Traya/Malak vs Nyriss?