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The trio battle melded in TUF. Luke is dual wielding.

The Siraks start in a massive formation 50 meters away.

Are also Sirak Slayers there?

Luke solos via Force Wave.

Luke stomps.

Jacen solos 300, Jaina 200 and Luke 500

If they didn't have Luke, they'd lose

What is with all these Siraak threads?

More seriously, no one is fighting a thousand sith of Sirak's level and winning. Even these three don't come close to what you'd need.

Sirak got blitzed by trainee Bane, who gets sh@t on by RoT Bane, who is inferior to DoE Bane, who gets sh@t on by Tenebrous, who is inferior to Plagueis, who is inferior to RotS Sidious, who is notably inferior to DE Sidious, whom Luke is on the same level as.

Sirak, or even dozens of Siraks, aren't even worthy of being Luke Skywalker's foot-rest; they're far from a legitimate threat. I see no reason Luke's Force Wave doesn't shatter them to bits.

Originally posted by MythLord
DE Sidious, whom Luke is on the same level as.

You mean same level, not equal, or?

Numbers become irrelevant after a certain point.

Originally posted by Q99
More seriously, no one is fighting a thousand sith of Sirak's level and winning. Even these three don't come close to what you'd need.

Tulak Hord, Meetra Surik, Revan and Rastka Lsu beg to differ.

Originally posted by Q99
More seriously, no one is fighting a thousand sith of Sirak's level and winning. Even these three don't come close to what you'd need.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tulak Hord, Meetra Surik, Revan and Rastka Lsu beg to differ.

No they don't because Raskta was never shown to have her opponents at the same time or simultaneously and neither has Revan or Meetra given the layout of the areas they fought in and the fact that they had a team helping them. Tulak never faced armies by himself. He single handedly shifted the tide of battle but to assume he soloe'ed an entire army is ridiculous.

Not even taking all of the above into account thought the average Force users they faced would not be on Sirak's level.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You mean same level, not equal, or?

Same level, though superior.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
neither has Revan or Meetra given the layout of the areas they fought in and the fact that they had a team helping them.

I don't think the layout is that big of a deal; the rooms they fought in were still large enough for them to be surrounded on all sides, beyond that it seems to be just a matter of stamina.

Also Luke, Jaina and Jacen are a team. Not that Revan or Meetra's teammates were particularly significant.



That's true, but I'd wager that the gap between Luke and Sirak is larger than the gap between Meetra and nexus-amped Malachor trainees.

A lot larger. Also, the Sith Meetra and Revan faced were meant to be Elite, IIRC, so logically they should be in Sirak's paygrade.

I love how you capitalize Elite, lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think the layout is that big of a deal; the rooms they fought in were still large enough for them to be surrounded on all sides, beyond that it seems to be just a matter of stamina.

Also Luke, Jaina and Jacen are a team. Not that Revan or Meetra's teammates were particularly significant.



That's true, but I'd wager that the gap between Luke and Sirak is larger than the gap between Meetra and nexus-amped Malachor trainees.

The hallways themselves are only large enough for 2-3 people to walk down it side by side. If the Exile and Revan were tactically smart ( not like Meetra was a commanding officer in Revan's fleet or Revan's known for his tactical ingenuity ) they would have used the layout of the halls to funnel the Sith.

Depends on if Luke is giving a performance like the one he did against Lumiya. Also there's a lot more of them and I think stamina would be a deciding factor. Given an injured Luke didn't want to fight off a few dozen Sabers in FotJ I question his ability to last against 1,000 Surik's even with a team.

They're from TUF, so they're having one of their best performances.

I don't recall if the hallways are as small as you say, and in many cases Revan and Meetra were engaging them in rooms, not waiting for them to charge them in hallways (why would the sith do that instead of turtling in open spaces?). In either case, if cover one another's backs, the trio won't have to deal with as many attackers at once as you're suggesting.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
They're from TUF, so they're having one of their best performances.

I don't recall if the hallways are as small as you say, and in many cases Revan and Meetra were engaging them in rooms, not waiting for them to charge them in hallways (why would the sith do that instead of turtling in open spaces?). In either case, if cover one another's backs, the trio won't have to deal with as many attackers at once as you're suggesting.

Doesn't change Luke's consistent inconsistency.

I never made a claim as to how many they'd be fighting in an open space. I just noted that by sticking to hallways they would be facing less. Is Revan and Meetra's defeat of those many Dark Jedi/Sith detailed somewhere? If not then I'd be interested to hear why you think most of their fights occurred in open rooms.

But the Luke in TUF was doing well; his jobbing in other pieces is irrelevant here.

It seems to me like the sith would stick to places where they have the biggest tactical advantage, and they aren't the ones trying to raid the place, so it would be on Revan and Meetra to actually move and engage. I dunno.

In either case, I still think the primary difference is stamina, not the intensity. We see plenty of people like Hoth and Zallow cut down multiple enemies pretty casually, and in this case the trio will only get a marginally more intense attack, it's just going to last a lot longer.

Originally posted by Azronger
Luke stomps.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But the Luke in TUF was doing well; his jobbing in other pieces is irrelevant here.

It seems to me like the sith would stick to places where they have the biggest tactical advantage, and they aren't the ones trying to raid the place, so it would be on Revan and Meetra to actually move and engage. I dunno.

In either case, I still think the primary difference is stamina, not the intensity. We see plenty of people like Hoth and Zallow cut down multiple enemies pretty casually, and in this case the trio will only get a marginally more intense attack, it's just going to last a lot longer.

Only if you're saying TUF Luke only and discounting other works and their showings.

I doubt the Sith are going to just let some random Jedi walk through without providing some resistance. Maybe once the teams had thinned some of their numbers.

The difference being Zallow and Hoth weren't being simultaneously assaulted.

Well it is TUF Luke, per the thread.

So you're assuming that the sith decided to help the two out by engaging them in bottlenecks that minimized the weight of numbers?

They kinda were...

And we can see Dooku fending off Anakin and Obi Wan, albeit with ploy forms, and Sidious blitzing the B-team. The second case was indeed one where he was surrounded, but not being attacked simultaneously because of his speed.

Originally posted by MythLord
A lot larger. Also, the Sith Meetra and Revan faced were meant to be Elite, IIRC, so logically they should be in Sirak's paygrade.

Note that the whole membership of the Brotherhood Academy was considered elite. Sirak and Bane were on a level beyond them.


Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tulak Hord, Meetra Surik, Revan and Rastka Lsu beg to differ.

Yea, here's a thing about them: They didn't do it all at once.

Meetra went through a Sith Academy and killed a lot of small groups (and was able to rest while doing so). Rastka did so across many battles. Tulak also likely did his as part of a muuuch bigger battle with backup and such. Etc. etc..


There's a massive difference between taking on several hundred people with no cover, rest, or reason for them to focus on anything but you, and taking the same number in bitesized chunks, with rests and possibly distractions and backup too.

"Defeat in detail" (I.e. if there's a lot of enemies, break them up so you can slaughter small groups of them) is one of the most sought-after goals of tactical planning in combat.


Spread these thousand out and give the trio a few days, and yea, they'll kill them all, but that is a massively different story.

Originally posted by Azronger
You were the one who said Luke stomps.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well it is TUF Luke, per the thread.

So you're assuming that the sith decided to help the two out by engaging them in bottlenecks that minimized the weight of numbers?

They kinda were...

And we can see Dooku fending off Anakin and Obi Wan, albeit with ploy forms, and Sidious blitzing the B-team. The second case was indeed one where he was surrounded, but not being attacked simultaneously because of his speed.

And that's fine.

I assume that they wouldn't just stand around in open rooms waiting for the attackers to walk into them, yes.

Except they kind of weren't since they had entire armies of allies around them...

Sidious wasn't surrounded. The B team and Mace were all in front of him meaning he had room to maneuver.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I assume that they wouldn't just stand around in open rooms waiting for the attackers to walk into them, yes.

So they'd do what you think would make them easier to kill?



Satele had like three or four attacking her. If this trio has their backs to one another, they'll get only somewhat more than that, and they're all far more powerful than Hope Satele (with Luke being incomprehensibly so).

You're also assuming that the three have to let themselves be surrounded, rather than employing their speed to maneuver through them and pick them off. Or that Luke couldn't employ his illusions and AoE attacks.



What, so if the B-team had starting surrounding him, you think he would've lost?

Honestly they probably just expected to overwhelm them.

Not simultaneously or with them surrounding her.

I don't think any of them but Luke are fast enough to speed through hordes of Sirak. And I think doing that would exhaust even Luke pretty quickly.

He would've had a tougher fight that's for sure.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Honestly they probably just expected to overwhelm them.


This is just a pure assertion. It makes more sense to assume that they did what maximized their chances of winning.



No because she ran through them. Why can't this trio run through their ranks too? Or pick them off with TK, illusions, etc.?



I think you're overestimating Sirak here. Those Sith that Zen Zallow was two-shotting were the best of the best, and Luke is pretty faaaaaaaar beyond Zallow.



Why? He stabbed them before they could react; if one were behind him that would've made little difference. Kit Fisto and Windu were on opposite sides of him after the initial blitz and that didn't change anything.

How many Siraks can assault the trio at once anyway? Even if the Skywalkers just sit there and let them surround them (why?), it's maybe, say, three or four? That's being really generous; at that point they're probably getting in one another's way, which is what happened in RoT with the Jedi strike team and in FotJ when sith sabers were actually cutting one another down due to their numbers.

So the only issue is stamina, which is a concern, yeah.

rotfl, wtf

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is just a pure assertion. It makes more sense to assume that they did what maximized their chances of winning.



No because she ran through them. Why can't this trio run through their ranks too? Or pick them off with TK, illusions, etc.?



I think you're overestimating Sirak here. Those Sith that Zen Zallow was two-shotting were the best of the best, and Luke is pretty faaaaaaaar beyond Zallow.



Why? He stabbed them before they could react; if one were behind him that would've made little difference. Kit Fisto and Windu were on opposite sides of him after the initial blitz and that didn't change anything.

How many Siraks can assault the trio at once anyway? Even if the Skywalkers just sit there and let them surround them (why?), it's maybe, say, three or four? That's being really generous; at that point they're probably getting in one another's way, which is what happened in RoT with the Jedi strike team and in FotJ when sith sabers were actually cutting one another down due to their numbers.

So the only issue is stamina, which is a concern, yeah.

A single Force user with a few non force users walk into your academy and you're going to hide in big rooms for them till they enter? Seems unlikely to me.

Because only Luke has shown speed feats that should allow him to be capable of doing that and while illusions are a good distraction I don't think has ever caused one to physically manifest itself.

And Sirak was also the best of the students training to be Sith Lords. We know the vast majority of Force users didn't have that kind of potential and were assigned to lower Sith ranks. Sirak seemed to have the most potential of any student ever until Bane came along meaning had he reached his full potential he would have been possibly the most powerful of the Brotherhood Sith. Granted he didn't but he was still judged to be the only student ready of actually taking the mantle of Sith Lord along with Bane from a combative sense.

That's a feat for Zallow not one for Luke regardless of what we think the disparity between the two combatants is.

Well Mace and Fisto were able to raise their blades in the time it took for Sidious to make his way back to the desk and destroy the audio recordings. If Sidious was surrounded and being attacked from 4 different directions simultaneously I'd imagine even he'd have to focus on defense and counters for a while before settling into the rhythm of the fight and managing to find an opening.

More then 4 Sirak's could surround the group even at their ideal spacing. Even more if they're spacing isn't ideal. And I'm not saying the Skywalkers/Solos would let themselves be surrounded but they eventually would be. Given the first instantaneous you mentioned occurred because of an average Jedi holding back a better one and the second occurrence you mentioned is outright incompetence I don't have to address why that wouldn't apply to Sirak.

Let's also not forget that you can *combine* force lightning.

We saw Maul + Mother Talzin was a combo that Talzin thought would beat Sidious- til Sidious countered by adding a Dooku.

We've also seen against Morne/Muur, Krayt's winning, then Maladi adds some lightning and Muur's like, "Hah, you could've held out against just-Krayt for awhile before dying, but thanks to him having the assistance of someone weaker than you, your only options are to give me the driver's seat or die fast."


So in short, you could have, like, a hundred Sirak firing a gigantic lightning-o-doom at them. Because while Sirak's lightning is normal level, x100 normal is stuff that'd make Abeloth blanch.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
A single Force user with a few non force users walk into your academy and you're going to hide in big rooms for them till they enter? Seems unlikely to me.


So you think going to hallways hurts the sith...and that's why they'll do it?



They're all notably faster than the Siraks, and it's not like speed adds together; they'll be able to outmaneuver them and attack at will, and thus avoid being surrounded. Luke can generate like twenty after-images of them at the same time and the Siraks will either have to split up or stand in place and get picked off with TK.



Not sure if Sirak could've surpassed Kas'im, as he'd already been training for a pretty long while and evidently wouldn't have lasted more than five second against him, but it hardly matters whether he could when Kas'im would die to any of the trio, and when Sirak didn't reach that level.



Oh, come on.



No it wouldn't, because Sidious killed two of them in the time it took the others to even react, so this is a difference of speed, not geometry; if they surrounded him he'd still be able to kill two of them, with maybe a slightly longer movement of his saber to off the second.



OK...and? Luke in JA was beating six Jennesari at once by basically one-shotting them, casually, and he was jobbing like that entire series. Luke also took on six slayers at once while fatigued, a single of which was beating Kyp Durron. So he'll have to take on four or five Siraks at once, and then if he ever tires, can just retreat and regenerate with his superior speed keeping them at bay. I don't see the problem here.