Malgus and Thanaton vs Traya and Meetra

Ursumeles

Originally posted by SunRazer
I think you're "moderate" enough to not be labelled a K2 wanker by the public, though I could be very wrong on that.

But I do think that you're much more open to differences - to change - than many other people here, who are simply unwilling to accept anything that differs from their old dogmas.
Eh...depends. I have Traya>=Dooku in the force, who I have probably an half tier above most on this Forum.

Aww, thanks! Yeah, my opinions sometimes change from day to day. So I have sometimes Kenobi>Mara>Exile in sabers, sometimes Kenobi=Mara>Exile and sometimes all three as equals.
But I don't will lower my opinion on Jacen 😒

Jmanghan

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah.

On a more serious note, the people who run around touting those Masters as featless generally don't know anything about the game and aren't even worth responding to. Put your money where your mouth is.

I don't consider killing a bunch of Soldiers impressive.

The restoration of the Jedi Temple could have legitimately been done by an average Padawan.

Jmanghan

What else have they done?

I refuse to accept cut content or dark side pathways as canon btw, because they aren't.

SunRazer

Nobody thinks they're canon, just indicative of character abilities erm

And an average padawan hid inside the Jedi Enclave, yet she couldn't restore it erm

That's some shit lowballing. Since when have average padawans performed feats of that stature?

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Put your money where your mouth is.

I don't consider killing a bunch of Soldiers impressive.

The restoration of the Jedi Temple could have legitimately been done by an average Padawan.
Lol. Not with such ease. Even if they would be featless -which they aren't- Zallow is also featless, as well as Kao, and, and, and.. It is absurd, that the best of the Jedi are weak. Traya is also implied to be vastly more powerful then Bastila and Sion.

SunRazer

Traya instantly killing nearly twenty elite Sith - something altered in the game only because its game engine couldn't handle that many characters uncloaking at once - is indeed beyond Dooku's caliber as a Force wielder.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya instantly killing nearly twenty elite Sith - something altered in the game only because its game engine couldn't handle that many characters uncloaking at once - is indeed beyond Dooku's caliber as a Force wielder.
Were that the Jedi slaughtering ones?
Even more so beyond Malgus ☺

SunRazer

They're just Assassins - we don't know what their history is per se. But we do know that the Sith stationed on Malachor V were (for some reason) the strongest members of the Sith Triumvirate.

Nephthys

Traya is about the same level as Malgus in the Force, but he would defeat her in the same manner that Meetra did.

Of course, giga-drain makes the comparison kind of irrelevant......

SunRazer

I hope that wasn't an attempt to get on my nerves. If so, pitiful.

Anyways, this might shock some of you, but is Malgus really more skilled? Beating Zallow doesn't convince me that he's beyond Traya.

Ursumeles

Even if Traya would lose against Malgus, the Exile would beat Thanaton faster, tbh.

Nephthys

Originally posted by SunRazer
I hope that wasn't an attempt to get on my nerves. If so, pitiful.

Anyways, this might shock some of you, but is Malgus really more skilled? Beating Zallow doesn't convince me that he's beyond Traya.

Traya only has one hand......

SunRazer

She only needed one to curb Atton Rand.

Nephthys

oh no not atton

he so totally comparable to malgus

totally

with all of his month of training

I don't recall if he says she beat him in sabers anyway. Plus she got a surprise attack on him. Besides which, he isn't powerful enough to threaten her. Meetra, and by extension Malgus, is.

SunRazer

Originally posted by Nephthys
oh no not atton

he so totally comparable to malgus

totally

with all of his month of training

I don't recall if he says she beat him in sabers anyway. Plus she got a surprise attack on him. Besides which, he isn't powerful enough to threaten her. Meetra, and by extension Malgus, is.

Apparently it took place over a year, as people claim, but I don't recall a source for that at the moment.

It's not as if Atton wasn't a master of Echani disciplines and formerly trained to be in one of Darth Revan's elite Sith assassin squads. Or that the Exile's party learned forms like Juyo and just progressed at insane rates thanks to their Force Bonds with her.

And it's not as if Atton beat Sion whilst drowned in the dark side and with Sion feeding off him to scale off him. Sion, who, 45 years ago, before having studied at either the Korriban or Trayus Academy, or discovering his immortality, made a hobby out of cutting down "experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat". Or that Atton and the Exile wiped out an entire army of Sith on Citadel Station.

Atton might not be very comparable to Malgus, but Traya utterly stomping him in a short duel would imply that she's about equal with Malgus in blade-to-blade combat. Not to mention her insane augmentation.

She didn't get a surprise attack on Atton - Atton got a surprise attack on her. And still got curbed.

We're also forgetting her B-teaming of Brianna, who definitely puts her up there with Malgus and higher.

Nephthys

It's not like any of that remotely compares with Malgus in the slightest, who defeated the Jedi Battlemaster 45 years before his prime. I'm not saying Atton is bad or anything. But he is complete fodder compared to this level of combatant.

But like I said, Atton didn't lose to her in a contest of skill or anything like that. This was also prior to Meetra absorbing the power of dozens of Sith, which would have fueled Atton through the bond.

Traya still lost to Meetra even though she was more powerful and was on a hugely potent nexus because Meetra just tanked her force abilities and beat her in sabers. To suggest Malgus can't do the same even sans nexus is laughable.

SunRazer

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not like any of that remotely compares with Malgus in the slightest, who defeated the Jedi Battlemaster 45 years before his prime. I'm not saying Atton is bad or anything. But he is complete fodder compared to this level of combatant.

But like I said, Atton didn't lose to her in a contest of skill or anything like that. This was also prior to Meetra absorbing the power of dozens of Sith, which would have fueled Atton through the bond.

Traya still lost to Meetra even though she was more powerful and was on a hugely potent nexus because Meetra just tanked her force abilities and beat her in sabers. To suggest Malgus can't do the same even sans nexus is laughable.

1. He beat Kao by being enraged, lol, and with the possibility of Kao being tired. Beforehand he couldn't beat Kao even with Vindican on his side.

2. Yes, he did lose to her through skill and augmentation. Meetra absorbing the power of dozens doesn't matter since we have nothing for Atton after that. We only have him beating Sion and beating an army of Sith alongside Meetra. And of course Atton doesn't really compare to Malgus, which is why Traya destroying him even when he tried to ambush her puts her up with Malgus.

As I said, though, Atton isn't the only way we can derive skill for Traya. She also B-teamed an Atris+ opponent.

3. I rank the Exile above Malgus, so yeah.

Nephthys

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. He beat Kao by being enraged, lol, and with the possibility of Kao being tired. Beforehand he couldn't beat Kao even with Vindican on his side.

2. Yes, he did lose to her through skill and augmentation. Meetra absorbing the power of dozens doesn't matter since we have nothing for Atton after that. We only have him beating Sion and beating an army of Sith alongside Meetra. As I said, though, Atton isn't the only way we can derive skill for Traya. She also B-teamed an Atris+ opponent.

3. I rank the Exile above Malgus, so yeah.

1. He's a Sith, lol. He's always enraged. He was no more angry than before, he just went full ham without Vindican in the way. It was only his full abilities finally being brought to bare. I could say the same thing about Kao being unable to beat Vindican when it was 1 on 1.

2. You must be talking about the cut content. Traya was standing in the middle of the Trayas Core, lol. He wasn't even able to compete, skill never became a factor. And his "ambush" was him walking up to her and attacking. Who gives a flip about Atris, lol. She doesn't register on any of the TOR protags level. She'd be an Act I planet boss. Malgus beat people who were blitzing the best Sith Warriors in the galaxy, he'd crush Sion and Brianna and Atton and Atris. TBH he'd probably beat them at the same time considering the FE fight.

3. That's nice. It's untrue, but its swell you think so. In sabers? Because she doesn't really have anything to support that. And Traya would certainly find it harder to fight Malgus' power focused offense with one hand than she would Meetra's.

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
Traya still lost to Meetra even though she was more powerful and was on a hugely potent nexus because Meetra just tanked her force abilities and beat her in sabers. To suggest Malgus can't do the same even sans nexus is laughable.
Originally posted by Nephthys
3. That's nice. It's untrue, but its swell you think so. In sabers? Because she doesn't really have anything to support that. And Traya would certainly find it harder to fight Malgus' power focused offense with one hand than she would Meetra's.

Surely her beating a skilled swordsman such as Traya, who held a power advantage and was on an extremely potent dark side nexus.... is "something to support that"

You're pulling a Carthage, arbitrarily ranking the Exile where you think she should be, saying Traya can't be that great because of your ranking, and then justifying your ranking of the Exile based on your ranking of Traya... It's all very circular.

TheKnight

Originally posted by Ursumeles
thumb up

Nephthys

Originally posted by Selenial
Surely her beating a skilled swordsman such as Traya, who held a power advantage and was on an extremely potent dark side nexus.... is "something to support that"

You're pulling a Carthage, arbitrarily ranking the Exile where you think she should be, saying Traya can't be that great because of your ranking, and then justifying your ranking of the Exile based on your ranking of Traya... It's all very circular.

To be superior to Malgus? I don't agree it does support that. Like I've said, Traya might have those advantages but the Exile has an equally important advantage in possessing both hands. In a lightsaber duel thats pretty significant.

No, I'm basing my ranking on Atton and Brianna. SunRazer's attempting to establish Traya's level based on that of Atton and Brianna. The Exile's ranking is partially based on Traya's. Because I disagree with his ranking of Atton and Brianna, I'm confident in my ranking on Traya based on her defeat of them and subsequently my ranking of the Exile. I don't think that this is circular, isn't this how you're supposed to evaluate feats? You start at the foundation then work your way up.

SunRazer

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. He's a Sith, lol. He's always enraged. He was no more angry than before, he just went full ham without Vindican in the way. It was only his full abilities finally being brought to bare. I could say the same thing about Kao being unable to beat Vindican when it was 1 on 1.

Yeah, and there's more extreme states of Force Rage than others.

As for Kao not beign able to beat Vindican one-on-one, he obviously benefited from having Satele's saber. That's why his performance suddenly changed. Whereas Malgus needs an explanation for why his performance suddenly changed against Kao.

None of the renditions of the "party attacks Kreia" videos are complete. Atton was supposed to disappear and ambush Kreia from behind. She then beats him in a "short, quick, brutal duel". It's straight from the game files.

And yes, it was on the Trayus Core, but Traya stomps them regardless of alignment, so it's obviously not a nexus thing.

She's better than the Act I bosses, lol. Most of them don't have anything going for them in terms of skill. The only one you could argue for would be Angral.

Blitzing people stronger than Atris >>> blitzing the Sith warriors.

She does. Beating Traya on a colossal geyser of dark side energies, which is well in excess of beating Zallow, since Traya's better than Zallow.

Sure, but she's sporting augmentation that allows her to shrug off hits from enraged Wookiees. She isn't bending quickly to Malgus' strength or anything of the sort. In fact, I think she'd contend quite fine.

Nephthys

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, and there's more extreme states of Force Rage than others.

As for Kao not beign able to beat Vindican one-on-one, he obviously benefited from having Satele's saber. That's why his performance suddenly changed. Whereas Malgus needs an explanation for why his performance suddenly changed against Kao.

Which Malgus was not benefiting from. His facial expressions were no angrier than before.

The second saber helped him fight 2 opponents at once. But if Kao was better at fighting with 2 sabers, surely that would have been his standard fighting style instead of a single saber. Plus, uh, lol Malgus got Vindicans saber remember? I guess if 2 sabers = boost he got one too.

Originally posted by SunRazer
None of the renditions of the "party attacks Kreia" videos are complete. Atton was supposed to disappear and ambush Kreia from behind. She then beats him in a "short, quick, brutal duel". It's straight from the game files.

And yes, it was on the Trayus Core, but Traya stomps them regardless of alignment, so it's obviously not a nexus thing.

Do you have the game files for that? Besides which, if it's not complete or rendered, we can't say that it was a lightsaber fight.

They're canonically lightsided.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She's better than the Act I bosses, lol. Most of them don't have anything going for them in terms of skill. The only one you could argue for would be Angral.

Blitzing people stronger than Atris >>> blitzing the Sith warriors.

You misunderstand, I said she wasn't better than the planetary bosses. So like Praven, Yonloch, Sadic....

Anyway, how is Brianna stronger than Atris? She got her ass kicked by Atris. Atris, btw, is a historian. So I wouldn't be too sure of her combat abilities in comparison to True Sith Warriors.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She does. Beating Traya on a colossal geyser of dark side energies, which is well in excess of beating Zallow, since Traya's better than Zallow.

No, she isn't. I terms of skill you havn't convinced me of that remotely, nor in terms of augmentation. Regardless, Malgus massively grows in power after the Zallow fight.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sure, but she's sporting augmentation that allows her to shrug off hits from enraged Wookiees. She isn't bending quickly to Malgus' strength or anything of the sort. In fact, I think she'd contend quite fine.

Based on an image where Hanharr's foot doesn't even remotely connect with her, I'm finding myself doubtful. Whether or not she can protect her body from a strike like that, she obviously can't do the same against a lightsaber blade and she can't stand up to Malgus' double-handed strikes. The strength in her arm is the factor here, not her durability.

SunRazer

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which Malgus was not benefiting from. His facial expressions were no angrier than before.

The part where he was screaming as he ploughed through the barrel makes him seem pretty angry to me.

Kao being a Battlemaster makes it more believable that he could wield a second blade effectively, but in either case, if we take the second blade for Malgus as an explanation, then it's just like Shaak Ti and the Magnaguards.

Yes, I do have the game files, and nowhere does it mention her using the Force to dismiss him, as the only YouTube rendition of it I have found does. It's strictly a lightsaber duel.

We're not discussing what's canon, we're discussing what the characters are capable of. Traya doesn't become exponentially more powerful because you make a few storyline changes, lol.

That's even worse.

She got her ass kicked in the Force. They stalemated in sabers before that. And as you mentioned before, the Exile feeds off people she kills, and the companions benefit from that through their Force Bond from her. The Exile feeds off an army of Sith on Citadel Station and hordes of Dark Jedi/Sith troopers on the Ravager between the Atris fight and the Traya fight. Brianna obviously grows stronger in accordance with that.

And Palpatine was a politican, but he'd stomp Malgus harder than you stomp a cockroach coming out of your couch.

You forget that Atris was better than Kavar, who was revered as one of the greatest warriors of the time - perhaps the greatest, for the Mandalorians (until Revan came along, that is). And this is an era where an extraordinarily high number of Jedi are experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Atris goes on to learn teachings of combat and the Force from dozens of Sith holocrons after this.

Kavar would be someone you compare to Praven+, not Atris. Atris is better, and she goes on to study dozens of Sith holocrons for combat teachings. She's more in league with Angral than Praven.

Yes, she is. Being able to blitz Atris+ opponents >> being able to blitz unnamed Sith Warriors, who, whilst the best in the Empire, are still unnamed fodder.

If Traya's better than Zallow, then the Exile beating her puts her above Malgus accordingly erm

That might counteract the colossal geyser of dark side energies that was influencing Surik vs Traya both ways, but nothing more.

The Handmaiden's blows come nowhere near Atton when he defends himself in the cargo hold, but we're supposed to take that as him blocking her strikes. It's just KotOR II's limited game engine. The same reason that it's not nearly twenty Sith, but only seven. And you excuse that, so it'd be hypocritical of you to not excuse this as well.

Durability in that sense represents physical fortitude. It's synonymous with strength. Traya's very much the Sidious of her time - but much weaker, of course - her frail appearance betrays her immense augmentation.

And obviously she can't protect herself if she gets hit by a lightsaber. Neither can Malgus or anyone else erm

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer

Anyways, this might shock some of you, but is Malgus really more skilled? Beating Zallow doesn't convince me that he's beyond Traya.

Yes, yes he is. Being one of the most skilled warriors in the Empire while he was still an apprentice and later becoming one of the Palpatine's greatest predecessors with battlefield feats that could never be replicated and fighting flawlessly against a team of the greatest Force users in the Galaxy puts him above f*cking Traya in skill. Jeezus christ.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes, yes he is. Being one of the most skilled warriors in the Empire while he was still an apprentice and later becoming one of the Palpatine's greatest predecessors with battlefield feats that could never be replicated and fighting flawlessly against a team of the greatest Force users in the Galaxy puts him above f*cking Traya in skill. Jeezus christ.
1. Great. Those were blitzed by Zallow, lmao.
2. Umm...excuse me? Tbfh, Malgus isn't one of the greatest predecessors. He is probably below most, if not all Banite Sith. It is an fine accolade, but nothing more.
3. Game mechanics. IIRC, one of the protags said "that he put up a good fight", but that could also mean, that he was impressed, that the 4 didn't stomped him.

UCanShootMyNova

1. Explain.
2. It's more then that. As has been mentioned Sidious gave Vader Malgus's journals to be inspired by. You can't inspire someone like Vader with your feats if they are already capable of such themselves.
3. The HoT said that he had fought perfectly or flawlessly. The intent is clear. Also it's a scripted event that occurs every time and makes sense in context. Not only does it take focus to choke multiple people at once but Malgus would also have the energy shields of the non force users to contend with.

Ursumeles

1. Zallow blitzed some of the "finest of the Empire"
2. IIRC, Sidious learned something from Sorzus' journals. Does that mean Sorzus Syn>Post-RotS Palpatine?
Also, depending on the time in which he gave him the journals, Vader was a Sub-Sha Koon scrub.
3. I'll make a therad to that.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by Ursumeles
1. Zallow blitzed some of the "finest of the Empire"
2. IIRC, Sidious learned something from Sorzus' journals. Does that mean Sorzus Syn>Post-RotS Palpatine?
Also, depending on the time in which he gave him the journals, Vader was a Sub-Sha Koon scrub.
3. I'll make a therad to that.

1. Quote?

2. Didn't say it made them greater. I just said it makes them impressively powerful and some of the greatest of all time.

3. Alright.

TenebrousWay

Originally posted by Ursumeles
2. Umm...excuse me? Tbfh, Malgus isn't one of the greatest predecessors. He is probably below most, if not all Banite Sith. It is an fine accolade, but nothing more.

lol, Ursumeles. Sidious is liying? Also, there's no proof the early banite line is above the TOR powerhouses. Curiously, Bane himself seems to suggest otherwise.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
lol, Ursumeles. Sidious is liying? Also, there's no proof the early banite line is above the TOR powerhouses. Curiously, Bane himself seems to suggest otherwise.
Nah, I just want to say that it isn't so, that Bane, Sorzus, and Malgus are his greatest precedessors. It is an really good accolade, but none which Traya couldn't archieve. When did Bane suggest that? Bane himself isn't that far, if at all, behind Malgus, imo. At least the latter half of the Banite Sith should be >Malgus.

@Syn
1. I'll search the quote
2. Naturally they are.

TenebrousWay

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nah, I just want to say that it isn't so, that Bane, Sorzus, and Malgus are his greatest precedessors. It is an really good accolade, but none which Traya couldn't archieve. When did Bane suggest that? Bane himself isn't that far, if at all, behind Malgus, imo. At least the latter half of the Banite Sith should be >Malgus.

Traya, while powerful and probably comparable to Malgus in the force, doesn't have any accolade or solid feat of combative skills. Malgus, however, was considered by Satele, as an apprentice, to have a larger force presence than Deceived Baras, who's solidly above Atris. Plus, Malgus accolades are far better.

One of the reasons for Bane creating the Rule of Two was the quality of the Sith material around him. If you read Jedi vs Sith/PoD you'll be unimpressed, like Bane.

On the late part of the banite line being more powerful than Malgus(the high end), I agree with you.

Nephthys

I think the point is that he was still merely an apprentice and still one of the empires greatest warriors. He had 45 years of growth and constant battle to improve after that. Not to mention that he defeated the Jedi Battlemaster at the time. Clearly he's a cut above nameless warriors.

UCanShootMyNova

@Urs: Its likely Sidious excluded members of the Banite line considering every work they had created was already in Sidious's possession as the ultimate successor in the Banite line.

Also how does that invalidate the accolade? It just makes Zallow even more impressive and makes sense consider Malgus should have improved substantially up to Return and Zallow was matching him.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Traya, while powerful and probably comparable to Malgus in the force, doesn't have any accolade or solid feat of combative skills. Malgus, however, was considered by Satele, as an apprentice, to have a larger force presence than Deceived Baras, who's solidly above Atris. Plus, Malgus accolades are far better.

One of the reasons for Bane creating the Rule of Two was the quality of the Sith material around him. If you read Jedi vs Sith/PoD you'll be unimpressed, like Bane.

On the late part of the banite line being more powerful than Malgus(the high end), I agree with you.
1. Malgus accolades are also >Tenebrous'. Latter still shi!ts on him. That are all accolades that put him very high, but not necessarily above Traya. Plo Koon has also one of the "most powerful Jedi of all time" accolades iirc.
Traya oneshoted some of the most powerful Jedi of her time, oneshotted 20 of the best Sith, and ragdolled Sion, iirc. Sge also B-teamed Brianna and stomped Atton
2. Quote for Apprentice Malgus>Baras?
3. Why is Deceived Baras solidly above Atris?
4. Kaan still mindcontrolled thousands of Sith. And PoD Bane collapsed an big temple, grow far more powerful in RoT and became stronger again in DoE.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
@Urs: Its likely Sidious excluded members of the Banite line considering every work they had created was already in Sidious's possession as the ultimate successor in the Banite line.

Also how does that invalidate the accolade? It just makes Zallow even more impressive and makes sense consider Malgus should have improved substantially up to Return and Zallow was matching him.
1. He still included Bane and Plagueis
2. It slso prove, that "one of the best of the empire" means nothing. IIRC, Asajj and Grievous also stomped some of the best Jedi. Anakin and Obi fodderized Elite Magnaguards. Etc.

UCanShootMyNova

Did he? Well then he probably wanted to get the perspective of the different types of powerful Sith. Philosopher, warrior, scientist, alchemist, etc. Granted we know the 5 Sith Sidious chose weren't equal in power but we know they were among the most powerful of whatever category Sidious chose them to represent.

That doesn't take away from the accolade as I said. It only increases the impressiveness of the people who defeated them.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Did he? Well then he probably wanted to get the perspective of the different type of powerful Sith. Philosopher, warrior, scientist, alchemist, etc. Granted we know the 5 Sith Sidious chose weren't of equal power but we knew they were among the most powerful of whatever category Sidious chose them to represent.
Yes.
Also, we don't even know if Sidious has Traya's journal, lel.

TenebrousWay

Originally posted by Ursumeles
1. Malgus accolades are also >Tenebrous'. Latter still shi!ts on him. That are all accolades that put him very high, but not necessarily above Traya. Plo Koon has also one of the "most powerful Jedi of all time" accolades iirc.
Traya oneshoted some of the most powerful Jedi of her time, oneshotted 20 of the best Sith, and ragdolled Sion, iirc. Sge also B-teamed Brianna and stomped Atton
2. Quote for Apprentice Malgus>Baras?
3. Why is Deceived Baras solidly above Atris?
4. Kaan still mindcontrolled thousands of Sith. And PoD Bane collapsed an big temple, grow far more powerful in RoT and became stronger again in DoE.

1. We know Tenebrous > Malgus by obvious scaling from Sidious. Plo Koon accolade stands, except in face of his proven betters - which can be compared directly, since they share the same era - like the main protags and antags of the PT era. That's how logic works. Traya isn't a proven superior of Malgus and doesn't even share the same accolades.

2. "There in the hangars I encountered the most dangerous embodiment of the dark side I have ever experienced-the man who would later be known as Darth Malgus. I had engaged in hundreds of practice duels with my fellow Padawans, but nothing prepared me for the sheer ferocity of the Sith. Darth Malgus would have killed me then and there were it not for Master Kao."

3. Deceived takes part during the peace treaty conference. If Baras is above Atris during the TOR game, he should be above her during the Deceived since, unlike Malgus, there's nothing stating he gained some sudden, unexpected increase of power.

4. Featless Sith. Amped Bane, although obviously, Bane isn't weak. I already proved in another thread that Malgus holding a large freighter is place is comparable or superior to Vader bringing down a cathedral. If that wasn't the intention of the author to wank Malgus hard with that feat, honestly, I'm not the one to blame.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Yes.
Also, we don't even know if Sidious has Traya's journal, lel.

He didn't deem it nessecary I suppose. smile

Ursumeles

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
1. We know Tenebrous > Malgus by obvious scaling from Sidious. Plo Koon accolade stands, except in face of his proven betters - which can be compared directly, since they share the same era - like the main protags and antags of the PT era. That's how logic works. Traya isn't a proven superior of Malgus and doesn't even share the same accolades.

2. "There in the hangars I encountered the most dangerous embodiment of the dark side I have ever experienced-the man who would later be known as Darth Malgus. I had engaged in hundreds of practice duels with my fellow Padawans, but nothing prepared me for the sheer ferocity of the Sith. Darth Malgus would have killed me then and there were it not for Master Kao."

3. Deceived takes part during the peace treaty conference. If Baras is above Atris during the TOR game, he should be above her during the Deceived since, unlike Malgus, there's nothing stating he gained some sudden, unexpected increase of power.

4. Featless Sith. Amped Bane, although obviously, Bane isn't weak. I already proved in another thread that Malgus holding a large freighter is place is comparable or superior to Vader bringing down a cathedral. If that wasn't the intention of the author to wank Malgus hard with that feat, honestly, I'm not the one to blame.
1. My point is just, that Jedi who haven't the same accolade as Plo(like Kenth, Mara, Jaina, heck, I think even ****ing Kyp Durron hasn't the same accolade) are his superiors. So also Sith, which don't share the same accolades with Malgus, could be above him.
2. Eh...not sure if it that really means that Malgus is more powerful. It implies, tho, that Apprentice Malgus>Baras in combat.
3. I think someone with such massive knowledge as Baras would grow in this years.
4. The Jedi that Zallow blitzed were also featless, lol. It is still extremely impressive. PoD Bane is far more powerful than Kaan, RoT Bane is even more powerful, and DoE Bane is the strongest. But fair enough, we shouldn't discuss if Bane is comparable to Malgus in this therad, lol.
Could you give me the reason, hy it is above Vaders Cathedral feat?

TenebrousWay

Originally posted by Ursumeles
1. My point is just, that Jedi who haven't the same accolade as Plo(like Kenth, Mara, Jaina, heck, I think even ****ing Kyp Durron hasn't the same accolade) are his superiors. So also Sith, which don't share the same accolades with Malgus, could be above him.
2. Eh...not sure if it that really means that Malgus is more powerful. It implies, tho, that Apprentice Malgus>Baras in combat.
3. I think someone with such massive knowledge as Baras would grow in this years.
4. The Jedi that Zallow blitzed were also featless, lol. It is still extremely impressive. PoD Bane is far more powerful than Kaan, RoT Bane is even more powerful, and DoE Bane is the strongest. But fair enough, we shouldn't discuss if Bane is comparable to Malgus in this therad, lol.
Could you give me the reason, hy it is above Vaders Cathedral feat?

1. True but you need to prove a case by case basis. Sidious estabilished a thesis, finding an exception to that thesis doesn't make the exception the new thesis.
2. It's a pretty strong evidence. The fact it's still apprentice Malgus is extremely impressive.
3. Yes, he grew in power. By how much is debatable.
4. That's why you never saw me using Zallow to prove that Malgus is good. It's also the same reason I don't see Traya beating Atton as anything impressive.

Malgus holds down a support freighter/dropship that should weight around 200-600 tons. The ship's engines were at full power and a ship like that one can accelerate at hundreds of G's. But let's just suppose he's accelerating at 30G's (merely 3x more than Saturn V at the launch pad, an extremely conservative estimate). Malgus is holding down 6,000-18,000 worth of mass with his TK. For comparison, the roof structure of the Notre Dame cathedral weighs around 300 tons. Vader's cathedral was pretty big, so let's the area by 10 and increase the density by 2x in order to sustain the weight. Now, Vader is manipulating the same weight as the minimum estimate for Malgus. Note that multipliying the area by 10 and increasing material density by 2 I'm being very generous with Vader, while I lowballed Malgus feat to the most conservative estimate of mass and acceleration.

TenebrousWay

For you that's a german, holding 6,000 tons in the air is equivalent to hold 100 Leopard 2 MBT(60 tons) with TK in the air. Impressive for a lower estimate, hu?

Ursumeles

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
1. True but you need to prove a case by case basis. Sidious estabilished a thesis, finding an exception to that thesis doesn't make the exception the new thesis.
2. It's a pretty strong evidence. The fact it's still apprentice Malgus is extremely impressive.
3. Yes, he grew in power. By how much is debatable.
4. That's why you never saw me using Zallow to prove that Malgus is good. It's also the same reason I don't see Traya beating Atton as anything impressive.

Malgus holds down a support freighter/dropship that should weight around 200-600 tons. The ship's engines were at full power and a ship like that one can accelerate at hundreds of G's. But let's just suppose he's accelerating at 30G's (merely 3x more than Saturn V at the launch pad, an extremely conservative estimate). Malgus is holding down 6,000-18,000 worth of mass with his TK. For comparison, the roof structure of the Notre Dame cathedral weighs around 300 tons. Vader's cathedral was pretty big, so let's the area by 10 and increase the density by 2x in order to sustain the weight. Now, Vader is manipulating the same weight as the minimum estimate for Malgus. Note that multipliying the area by 10 and increasing material density by 2 I'm being very generous with Vader, while I lowballed Malgus feat to the most conservative estimate of mass and acceleration.
1. Yeah. I am arguing that Traya could also be an exception. None of the accolades Malgus has, are out of Traya's reach. How it would be if we just compare feats?
2. I didn't doubt that.
3. Hasn't Baras got his amp post-Deceived? If so, then I would say that the gap is big.
4. So...both suck in Sabers?
5. Impressive. When did the Cathedral feat took place again, btw? Lol.
But that isn't better than Starkillers best feats, who was dominated by Vader, or Dooku's Cruiser feat.

TenebrousWay

Originally posted by Ursumeles
1. Yeah. I am arguing that Traya could also be an exception. None of the accolades Malgus has, are out of Traya's reach. How it would be if we just compare feats?
2. I didn't doubt that.
3. Hasn't Baras got his amp post-Deceived? If so, then I would say that the gap is big.
4. So...both suck in Sabers?
5. Impressive. When did the Cathedral feat took place again, btw? Lol.
But that isn't better than Starkillers best feats, who was dominated by Vader, or Dooku's Cruiser feat.

1. That she is not far away from him in the force, I may agree with you. That she is near him in combative power? I strongly disagree.
2. Fair
3. I don't exactly remember when Baras received his amps, that's why I clarified that Apprentice Malgus > Deceived Baras and not just > Baras. That Act III Baras > Apprentice Malgus is reasonable to expect.
4. Meetra soloed an amped Traya. In comparison, two protags of Meetra+ tier and two of the greatest non force sensitives in the galaxy were necessary to bring down Malgus in a neutral field.
5. Pre ANH. Vader's cathedral wasn't trivial exploit for him. The fact that he dominated Starkiller doesn't diminish the difficult of bringing down a cathedral. Dooku was at least slightly amped and many freighters are also considered cruisers. Depending on the ship, if Malgus can hold one who's accelerating at dozens (and potentially hundreds) of G's, obviously he can throw heavier ships at lower G's (note that 1G is free fall gravity. Throwing something at 1G is extremely impressive and fast). Also, note that Malgus literally grew significantly in power as per the novel after this feat and continued to grow until the Illum Flashpoint.

Ursumeles

1. She oneshoted 20 elite Sith and powerful Jedi masters, which build the enclave. Have you read Nova's blog about that? If not, dew it. You 'll see that they aren't just featleass fodder.
3. K'
4. Lol. That's a good feat for Meetra-not a bad one for Traya. Why do you think that the Act III protags are>The Exile? The Outlander is momentary the only of the protags, whom I rank above her.
5. So? The Starkiller feat is still better, imo.

I hope the response is not too short, I am just eating Ice xD.

TenebrousWay

1. lol Powerful relative to what? For sure we know Malgus > Act III HoT > Act II HoT > Satele > Atris > Vrook/Kavar/Zaz Kai. This does not prove anything on Traya's favour. That she's powerful in the force and has great knowledge of force techniques everyone knows.
4. I consider Meetra, the Wrath and the HoT as per Act III to be very close to Obi Wan in sabers. The TOR protags being slightly above the Exile. Based on that I classify Malgus performance as being significantly superior to Traya's. I'm not saying Traya's defeat is a bad feat, just that it gives evidence on Malgus' favour (IMO).
5. My intention is to suggest Malgus parity with Dooku and Vader (depending how you consider the size of their force gap). If two characters have similar feats in TK manipulating a neutral object, I fail to see great disparities in other aplications.

No problem, I'm not fond of huge wall of texts and I'm often busy. xD

Ursumeles

1. Powerful as in "extremely powerful fodder". IIRC, they severed the Exile together from the force. Also, what in combat feats has Malgus to suggest that he is >Traya? Ragdolling Sion, oneshotting the masters and assasins is more than impressive. Also, how are the likes of Satele/Atris>all the masters together?
4. But why do you think that the Act III protags>The Exile? Besting Sion, and beating Traya on a collosal DS nexus impresses me more, than what they have done.
5. Leia sometimes fails at TKing a no-name Jedi, but holds one day Millenium Falcon together. So, yeah...

TenebrousWay

1. I meant they're more powerful than the master individually but now that you ask Satele is probably more powerful than their collective, just not as powerful as Traya. Sion is barely above fooder whose main feat is to kill unnamed fooders, dying multiple times by the hands of unnamed people, probably other fooders(until proven otherwise) and being defeated, while amped, by a Jedi trainee Atton. The fact that Zallow, of all people, blitzed the empire's finest(aka fooder) with extremely ease while deflecting blaster fire and schooling Aadras - and did not die or got injured in the process - is far superior to anything Sion ever did. There's also the fact that Zallow was a veteran from the Great Galactic War and "celebrated Jedi Master", according to Deceived and killed fooder without dying and - apparently without getting injured even once. Again, ragdolling Sion and Jedi masters who are even below Sion isn't above Malgus or even an impressive showing.
4. Later, cause it's probably going to be a bit longer.
5. Leia isn't battle savy as Malgus, Tyranus or Vader

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes, yes he is. Being one of the most skilled warriors in the Empire while he was still an apprentice and later becoming one of the Palpatine's greatest predecessors with battlefield feats that could never be replicated and fighting flawlessly against a team of the greatest Force users in the Galaxy puts him above f*cking Traya in skill. Jeezus christ.

Sorry, but some of the best in the Empire can still lose to non-Force sensitives. "One of his greatest predecessors" and "battlefield feats that have never been replicated" refer to Force power, not saber skill. Fighting flawlessly isn't literal, otherwise he wouldn't have lost.

None of this puts him above "****ing Traya". I think sticking to a feats comparison would be better here erm

UCanShootMyNova

And Force power is directly tied to augmentation. A rather important factor in lightsaber combatant. Regardless of that though you're wrong when you say those quotes don't relate to his ability as a lightsaber combatant unless you have some proof otherwise.

Which would still put Malgus above since it takes the 4 protagonists of the Empire or Republic to defeat him.

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And Force power is directly tied to augmentation. A rather important factor in lightsaber combatant. Regardless of that though you're wrong when you say those quotes don't relate to his ability as a lightsaber combatant unless you have some proof otherwise.

Which would still put Malgus above since it takes the 4 protagonists of the Empire or Republic to defeat him.

1. It's good that Traya has the feats to match or surpass Malgus in terms of power, then. And no, I'm not wrong. The predecessors quote is actually "one of his most powerful predecessors", and the battlefield feats quote was right after Sidious was talking about his Maelstrom, IIRC, which obviously isn't lightsaber combat. Sidious has a long history of saying that Sith warriors have "unmatched X", as well. Surely you've seen him claim that Maul and Vader have unmatched skills as a warrior? You don't seem to take those literally either, so it's a double-standard to invest so much into this.

2. Nowhere is it said that it takes all four for Malgus to be defeated, only that he did lose a strike team. It's never said to be the bare minimum necessary to defeat Malgus.

As I said, the accolades don't reflect your opinion of Malgus wrecking, and a feats comparison would suggest otherwise as well.

UCanShootMyNova

1. Except she really doesn't despite what you so desperately desire.

Malgus's ability to use malestrom and his battlefield feats is for the most part unrelated meaning your attempt to connect the quote to a reference to said ability fails utterly.

I take those quotes in the context they're given. I've never tried to deny either Maul or Vader's skill. I can't say the same for you.

2. It's noted that the Malgus mission is a 4 person Flashpoint.

Even using just his Deceived feats he's superior to Traya.

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Except she really doesn't despite what you so desperately desire.

I can't really see you justifiably calling anybody else pompous when you're constantly talking to me like this erm

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer
I can't really see you justifiably calling anybody else pompous when you're constantly talking to me like this erm

Get off your high horse - everybody has their inherent biases and I've got one of the most bipartisan records here. You don't need to talk down to me about my biases or desires. I have facts. Can we just have this discussion without referring to other people's "desires"?

But yes, killing nearly a dozen elite Sith instantly and Draining the Council (noting just how colossal the gap needs to be for you to Drain someone), each Master of which "reached the pinnacle of Force mastery" and could restore the Jedi Enclave is beyond Malgus' ability.

Unrelated for what? Sidious is talking about how channeling his anger makes Malgus powerful, and there's even a picture of him using Maelstrom. Sidious goes on to talk about him perfecting Maelstrom himself, IIRC. That was pretty big part.

Please. You fabricated context in the Mace v Dooku quote. Please don't try to talk down to me about context.

And there's nothing saying that it was the bare minimum required to defeat Malgus, only that such a group was organized and Malgus lost to them.

If we're talking about skill, I'm not seeing how. Traya's justifiably better than Zallow on the grounds of better showings (blitzing Atris+ opponents > blitzing fodder Sith warriors, however elite they may be), so Malgus would only be around where Traya is.

Granted, Malgus grows in power afterwards, but that's why we have the Exile, who defeated Traya on a colossal geyser of dark side energies, here.

Considering Krayt was capable of draining Abeloth and Luke I doubt it.

But then he goes on to refer to his battlefield feats. I highly doubt an experienced warrior who's likely been in hundreds of battles is going to be praised for his battlefield feats off the basis of knowing the "malestrom" technique. They're unrelated.

The quote is ambiguous and I intend to get it cleared up with the author. Regardless of what you believe my intent to be you should realize I took what you said about the quote possibly being a reference to others being a match for Dooku as legitimate which is why I agreed to put the point to the side in that particular debate.

Given Malgus occupied 3 of the combatants during the fight I'd say that implies pretty heavily the whole team was necessary to defeat him.

Oxymoron. If they're praised as being some of the best warriors in the Galaxy they cannot justifiably be fodder. And you're arguing the handmaidens are equal to Atris now? The debate is Traya and Malgus. Try to keep to that please.

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Considering Krayt was capable of draining Abeloth and Luke I doubt it.

Completely different type of Drain, as I explained here: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/force-misconceptions-force-drain-kotor-ii/128438/

Krayt's Drain resembles Drain Life. It doesn't resemble KotOR II's Drain by any stretch of the imagination.

And likewise, given that Nihilus only managed to partially Drain Traya, we can see what kind of disparity is needed to fully enact the Drain. Traya's vastly, vastly more powerful than those Masters.

The passage was about what Malgus could do with his anger, IIRC, which was also why Sidious gave the journal to Vader for inspiration.

I think you're the only one who finds it ambiguous, but I respect your decision to take it aside.

And yet, if only 3 combatants turn up, Malgus can suddenly only "occupy" 2 of them. And if only 2 turn up, Malgus can suddenly only "occupy" 1 of them.

I didn't say the Handmaidens were equal to Atris, only the Last of the Handmaidens, or Brianna, who stalemated Atris in dueling before being destroyed in the Force. And she grows after that.

Which is why Traya being able to blitz someone like Brianna is better than Zallow being able to blitz Sith warriors. Hence, Traya's better than Zallow, which would put her about where Deceived Malgus is. As I said, Malgus grows more powerful afterwards, but Meetra's also here, and she's better than Traya.

I am.

UCanShootMyNova

I'm not seeing the differences between the two draining techniques. If Force Drain doesn't kill it weakens the victim and the same goes for Drain Life. Drain Life feeds on a beings life energies and Force Drain feeds on a beings death. The only difference you could argue would be that Force Drain actively severs a beings connection to the Force but it's mentioned when Nihilus and Sion betray Traya that Nihilus employs Force sever separately.

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/3826642-9895533996-XLA8S.gif

And that's fine but his "unmatched battlefield feats" is not tied to his ability to use "malestrom."

Thanks.

I assumed we were going off the basis that he did indeed fight all 4 given its mentioned that it's a 4 person flashpoint.

"blitzing Atris plus level opponents."

You indicated she did this to multiple opponents above Atris's level.

Why? What puts Atris above these Sith warriors?

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm not seeing the differences between the two draining techniques. If Force Drain doesn't kill it weakens the victim and the same goes for Drain Life. Drain Life feeds on a beings life energies and Force Drain feeds on a beings death.

They're completely different. Drain Life is just you funneling someone's life energy into yourself. Force Drain is cutting somebody's life and connection to the Force off, and then feeding on the ensuing death. One is feeding on life, the other is feeding on death.

It's never said that he used Sever Force separately, and Sever Force is actually a light-sided power where you block someone's connection to the Force with the light. Nihilus didn't use that erm

It's clear that Nihilus partially succeeded in severing Traya from the Force as part of his Force Drain, but not completely.

Well, if we can't reach a consensus here, then we can agree to disagree.

Not at all. I'm merely contextualizing the game mechanics that you're bringing up.

No, I'm just using plurality in general reference, if you know what I mean. It's just Brianna.

Well for one, she's better than Kavar even before she studied from her Sith Holocrons. Kavar being revered as one of the greatest warriors of his time, perhaps even the greatest (until Revan came along, of course). As a master of Juyo, Kavar's a high-level master of at least two other forms and is one of the most skilled Force users in existence. Add to that that he's considered a virtuoso of lightsaber combat in an era where the common Jedi is an expert of lightsaber and Force-related combat. And Atris was better than him, even before she studied teachings of combat and the Force from dozens of Sith holocrons.

Brianna fought her to a standstill, then gained strength through her Bond with the Exile as the Exile fed off the deaths of legions of Sith on Citadel Station and the Ravager. And after that, she was still blitzed by Traya.

UCanShootMyNova

Your unstoppable aren't you? I've been going nonstop for 2 hours and you still haven't given in.

I was told you innovated the wall of text style of debating but I didn't know how true that was. Until now.

SunRazer

I'm savoring my last few days before I won't be able to be on much, lol. And I'm not going anywhere today in particular, so yeah, I'm basically able to stay on the whole time whilst doing other things.

This isn't much of a wall of text, lol. Have you seen my longer walls?

And yes, I often feel that about stubborn people who refuse to let up no matter the circumstances. Sometimes I'm among those people.

Zenwolf

Where you going?

carthage

To throw himself off Ayers Rock for his shit opinions

SunRazer

I'm not going anywhere. I'll just be buried by huge workloads. And I have plans with friends, lol, just not this week.

carthage

So a group suicide, awesome

SunRazer

ur dumb

UCanShootMyNova

I'm going to just wait till your busy and then respond. Hopefully others will do the same and you'll get overloaded.

SunRazer

Then I accept your concession for this and all future discussions.

UCanShootMyNova

It's not a concession. It's just an acknowledgement that you're a typing machine with way too much time on their hands that I don't have the time/will to engage right now.

None of your points are ones I am incapable of countering. Your claim that Force sever is a purely lightside ability?

Here's Nihilus's abilities from the campaign guide.

http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/3826704-sever+force.jpg

Bam. Countered.

As I said I don't have the will to constantly exchange blows with you however so I'd rather wait till you are busy enough to stop being so stubborn.

SunRazer

I do type extremely fast.

Anyways, resorting to overwhelming people with number is a concession.

Besides, I can leave this alone for a few days.

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It's not a concession. It's just an acknowledgement that you're a typing machine with way too much time on their hands that I don't have the time to engage right now.

None of your points are ones I am incapable of countering. Your claim that Force sever is a purely lightsaber ability?

Here's Nihilus's stats from the campaign guide.

http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/3826704-sever+force.jpg

Bam. Countered.

As I said I don't have the will to constantly exchange blows with you however so I'd rather wait till you are busy enough to give up your stubbornness.

That's a gameplay mechanic erm

The lore takes precedence. Otherwise, Sion, Traya and Malak can all Drain people across a Star System or something stupid like that.

I only take gameplay mechanics if there's absolutely nothing else on the subject and it isn't trumped by lore. Gameplay mechanics are unquestionably by far the lowest on the scale of canon/material worth taking.

UCanShootMyNova

Where in the guide does it say Sion Traya and Malak are capable of draining people from across a star system?

SunRazer

The part where they're listed with Distant Power and Devastating Power, which apparently means they can do that. Ask Ant.

Nihilus as well, obviously. I think Revan also.

UCanShootMyNova

Your problem is that you can't ever accept that you're wrong. I actually share that with you believe it or not. :P

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer
The part where they're listed with Distant Power and Devastating Power, which apparently means they can do that. Ask Ant.

Nihilus as well, obviously. I think Revan also.

How does Distant Power + Devastating Power amount to being capable of draining someone from across a star system? Lol.

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Your problem is that you can't ever accept that you're wrong. I actually share that with you believe it or not. :P

I've been told that a lot. I am quite stubborn, but I've had my fair share of concessions. Silver can attest to my willingness to concede smile

DarthAnt66

What's this debate even about?

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
How does Distant Power + Devastating Power amount to being capable of draining someone from across a star system? Lol.

Because that's what they mean, according to the Saga Rulebook or whichever one it was.

SunRazer

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What's this debate even about?

The nature of Sever Force, currently. I told him that Nihilus used Drain on Kreia and he doesn't believe me. He thinks it's some DS Sever Force when the game and Campaign Guide make it abundantly clear that it's an incomplete application of Drain.

UCanShootMyNova

I like you Nova but like Ellimist you're too much like me. And I don't really have the will power to continue these slug matches. I could bring up the fact that Nihilus has constantly passively drained the crew of his ship for extremely long periods with his presence and plenty of other examples of his Force Drain not being a power that feeds from death but you'd likely have an exc- counter for that as well. I don't see much point in continuing this honestly since you'll never stop and likely have enough KOTOR II sources stockpiled to make an argument off of nearly any basis you like.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because that's what they mean, according to the Saga Rulebook or whichever one it was.

Elaborate please.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by SunRazer
The nature of Sever Force, currently. I told him that Nihilus used Drain on Kreia and he doesn't believe me. He thinks it's some DS Sever Force when the game and Campaign Guide make it abundantly clear that it's an incomplete application of Drain.
The game visibly displayed it as Sever Force, but the Campaign Guide mistakenly deemed it as Force drain, tbh.

The game takes precedent regardless, though.

SunRazer

@Ant - I edited some more stuff in.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I like you Nova but like Ellimist you're too much like me. And I don't really have the will power to continue these slug matches. I could bring up the fact that Nihilus has constantly passively drained the crew of his ship for extremely long periods with his presence and plenty of other examples of his Force Drain not being a power that feeds from death but you'd likely have an exc- counter for that as well. I don't see much point in continuing this honestly since you'll never stop and likely have enough KOTOR II sources stockpiled to make an argument off of nearly any basis you like.

Those aren't the same as what he used on Traya.

And I don't know why you're complaining about the KotOR II information at my disposal. Nobody ever defers to me on that basis sad

SunRazer

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The game visibly displayed it as Sever Force, but the Campaign Guide mistakenly deemed it as Force drain, tbh.

The game takes precedent regardless, though.

There's nothing "visibly displayed", lol. You are aware that in order to use Malachor! Drain, you have to sever your opponents from the Force? That's what happened to the Masters on Dantooine or if you Drain them.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's no "visibly displayed", lol.
That's exactly the point. thumb up

The game has a Force drain animation and uses it in cutscenes. The fact it's not used when Kreia is stripped is proof that it's not Force drain.

SunRazer

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's exactly the point. thumb up

The game has a Force drain animation and uses it in cutscenes. The fact it's not used when Kreia is stripped is proof that it's not Force drain.

There's no animation when you feed off most of the people you kill, as well, even though it's the same technique as Nihilus. There's no animation when the Assassins do it, even though it's the same technique.

The animation is actually the one for Drain Life and they just borrow it at times.

Why would Nihilus sever, anyway? He doesn't care for philosophical irony or anything - he just wants to feed. Why would he not make Kreia his first victim? It's even said in-game that they wanted Kreia to die.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's no animation when you feed off most of the people you kill, as well, even though it's the same technique as Nihilus. There's no animation when the Assassins do it, even though it's the same technique.
The examples you're providing is the technique being done passively. We see Force drain as tangible tendrils for direct attacks, like Darth Nihilus does to the Exile and Darth Traya to the Jedi Council.

What Darth Nihilus did to Darth Traya wasn't passive - it was direct. The lack of visible energy is telling that it's Sever Force.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Ant - I edited some more stuff in.

Those aren't the same as what he used on Traya.

And I don't know why you're complaining about the KotOR II information at my disposal. Nobody ever defers to me on that basis sad

Why is it not the same?! Because of that quote you provided defining Force drain and because the effect he had on them doesn't align to it? :/

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Why is it not the same?! Because of that quote you provided defining Force drain and because the effect he had on them doesn't align to it? :/

That's more like Drain Life. It's what Kreia teaches you to do with Hanharr in the DS version, which is evidently not like Drain.

UCanShootMyNova

Edit: So I thought I might as well address the rest of your post since I've been taking each point individually up untill now.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not at all. I'm merely contextualizing the game mechanics that you're bringing up.

No, I'm just using plurality in general reference, if you know what I mean. It's just Brianna.

Well for one, she's better than Kavar even before she studied from her Sith Holocrons. Kavar being revered as one of the greatest warriors of his time, perhaps even the greatest (until Revan came along, of course). As a master of Juyo, Kavar's a high-level master of at least two other forms and is one of the most skilled Force users in existence. Add to that that he's considered a virtuoso of lightsaber combat in an era where the common Jedi is an expert of lightsaber and Force-related combat. And Atris was better than him, even before she studied teachings of combat and the Force from dozens of Sith holocrons.

Brianna fought her to a standstill, then gained strength through her Bond with the Exile as the Exile fed off the deaths of legions of Sith on Citadel Station and the Ravager. And after that, she was still blitzed by Traya.

I think this will just have to be something we agree to disagree on. I think the flashpoint noting it to be a 4 man mission is sufficient enough evidence to say that Malgus faced a 4 man team along with the dialogue options.

You know I'm unaware of the events of KOTOR II. When you say Atris+ level opponents ( plural ) I of course need to delve into what you're saying as multiple Atris+ level opponents is very different from a single Atris+ level opponent. Only providing information on why I pressed you for details.

Provide the quote for Kavar please.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's more like Drain Life. It's what Kreia teaches you to do with Hanharr in the DS version, which is evidently not like Drain.

Is the difference between the "Drain Life" technique and "Force Drain" technique made clear or are we basing this off the effect the abilities had?

If it is made clear can you provide the clip?

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I think this will just have to be something we agree to disagree on. I think the flashpoint noting it to be a 4 man mission is sufficient enough evidence to say that Malgus faced a 4 man team along with the dialogue options.

You know I'm unaware of the events of KOTOR II. When you say Atris+ level opponents ( plural ) I of course need to delve into what you're saying as multiple Atris+ level opponents is very different from a single Atris+ level opponent. Only providing information on why I pressed you for details.

Yeah, yeah.

If you're unaware of KotOR II, though, don't diss it needlessly. smile

"Kavar, huh? The famed Jedi guardian? The Mandalorians counted on the fact it would be you, not Revan, who would lead the Jedi against us during the Mandalorian Wars."

The Mandalorians treat Mandalore as their greatest warrior, so it'd seem natural that they'd treat the leader of the Jedi warriors in the same way.

Even if I'm wrong on that, everything else I said is accurate.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by SunRazer
"Kavar, huh? The famed Jedi guardian? The Mandalorians counted on the fact it would be you, not Revan, who would lead the Jedi against us during the Mandalorian Wars."

The Mandalorians treat Mandalore as their greatest warrior, so it'd seem natural that they'd treat the leader of the Jedi warriors in the same way.

Even if I'm wrong on that, everything else I said is accurate.
I've always perceived this quote as like "we were expecting some weak ****er like you, but instead got the realest MVP," personally.

"Counted on the fact" seems to suggest the Mandalorians were confident they could have bested Kavar if he led the charge.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, yeah.

If you're unaware of KotOR II, though, don't diss it needlessly. smile

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Is the difference between the "Drain Life" technique and "Force Drain" technique made clear or are we basing this off the effect the abilities had?

If it is made clear can you provide the clip?

I made it clear in that blog I linked you to. The origin, properties and the effects of the powers are completely different.

Traya specifically compares certain techniques to Nihilus' Drain. She doesn't in the case with Hanharr, which is basically you feeding off his life directly. It'd be something like that with Nihilus.

There's specific quotes for what Nihilus did to his crew as well, IIRC.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I've always perceived this quote as like "we were expecting some weak ****er like you, but instead got the realest MVP," personally.

thumb up

SunRazer

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I've always perceived this quote as like "we were expecting some weak ****er like you, but instead got the realest MVP," personally.

"Counted on the fact" seems to suggest the Mandalorians were confident they could have bested Kavar if he led the charge.

He says he doesn't know how he'd fare against Kavar and the Jedi. Also, he counted on it because Kavar was leading the Jedi in the preliminary skirmishes against the Mandalorians, IIRC. The Mandalorians didn't know who Revan was then.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's specific quotes for what Nihilus did to his crew as well, IIRC.

Pleas provide them because as of now, it appears the only basis we have for those two being separate abilities is that they have slightly different descriptions. If you can show Nihilus's draining of his crew was done with a different ability then your stance becomes more solid.

DarthAnt66

He constantly states that the Mandalorians would have won if not for Revan throughout the first and second game, tbh.

And I recall the Mandalorians winning battle after battle until Revan joined, so it seems he "counted on Kavar" since they were winning against him.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, he counted on it because Kavar was leading the Jedi in the preliminary skirmishes against the Mandalorians, IIRC. The Mandalorians didn't know who Revan was then.

Quote?

Also you understand that the Mandalorians aren't going to automatically assume the strongest warrior would lead the Jedi regardless of what they do in their own culture ( I assume they're aware of cultural differences ). Regardless the wording makes it seem like Revan leading the Jedi is something unexpected and ultimately detrimental given they were "counting on" Kavar leading the Jedi.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
it seems he "counted on Kavar" since they were winning against him.

Ninja'ed!

Exactly what I was thinking though. He wouldn't be "counting on Kavar" unless Kavar leading them was a good thing for them which is kind of a shitty accolade lol.

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Pleas provide them because as of now, it appears the only basis we have for those two being separate abilities is that they have slightly different descriptions. If you can show Nihilus's draining of his crew was done with a different ability then your stance becomes more solid.

It seems much like what Kreia taught the Exile in the DS version, to feed off Hanharr:

It's like a passive Drain Life, it seems.

Either way, I have many quotes arrayed to prove that the power I'm talking about feeds off death. I'm losing track of what all this is about, anyway. KotORCG claims that Nihilus used Drain on Traya. That was the irony - Traya taught him to harness the technique, and he used it against her. Sever Force has no place in this erm

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Everything else being?

All the other accolades I mentioned.

SunRazer

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He constantly states that the Mandalorians would have won if not for Revan throughout the first and second game, tbh.

And I recall the Mandalorians winning battle after battle until Revan joined, so it seems he "counted on Kavar" since they were winning against him.

1. That's with the benefit of hindsight.

2. No, he just counted on him because he was the leader.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer
It seems much like what Kreia taught the Exile in the DS version, to feed off Hanharr:

It's like a passive Drain Life, it seems.

Either way, I have many quotes arrayed to prove that the power I'm talking about feeds off death.

Please provide them.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by SunRazer
All the other accolades I mentioned.

For Kavar? You only posted one quote for him.

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
For Kavar? You only posted one quote for him.

I only posted one quote, but I mentioned a lot of other accolades. For once, instead of making me do the hard work, just go back and look at them.

SunRazer

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Please provide them.

Stop making me your library.

There you go. All three Wounds in the Force in the game - Exile, Nihilus and Malachor V, all feed off death. The Drain technique is also mentioned to feed off death. You Drain someone's life and sever their connection to the Force, but you feed off their death.

For proof that the Drain technique also severs you from the Force:

So yeah, Nihilus using Drain on Kreia makes total sense.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Lol. Not with such ease. Even if they would be featless -which they aren't- Zallow is also featless, as well as Kao, and, and, and.. It is absurd, that the best of the Jedi are weak. Traya is also implied to be vastly more powerful then Bastila and Sion.
Ven Zallow and Kao Cen Darach are featless?

SunRazer

I think he means that Vrook, Zez and Kavar are no more featless than Zallow and Darach is.

In other words, they all have feats, and we should acknowledge that.

GhostRavage

Originally posted by SunRazer
You forget that Atris was better than Kavar, who was revered as one of the greatest warriors of the time - perhaps the greatest, for the Mandalorians (until Revan came along, that is). And this is an era where an extraordinarily high number of Jedi are experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat.

Where is said Atris was better?

Because without it, I say Kavar was The Most Powerful Jedi Master's of the KOTOR series games Because Zez-Kai-Ell sayed this

"Kavar was the best of us the smartest tactician of us all except Revan of course"

Canderous Ordo as Mandolor also stated this to Kavar

"It was The Legendary Jedi Guardian Kavar we thought we would be fighting on the Republic's side except it was Revan"