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Time for another one of these.

RotS Anakin, in a perfect state of clarity (ie. in the opening stages of his battle against Dooku)

vs

RotJ Vader, in a perfect state of clarity.

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-out

Who wins?

Anakin
Either way
Anakin

this has never been done before

Originally posted by carthage
this has never been done before

Originally posted by SunRazer
Time for another one of these.

Vader could use the environment to his advantage and defeat Anakin through trickery and smarts, but Anakin is more skilled. Vader takes force, Anakin takes sabers and all out for a slim majority.

Anakin
Anakin
Anakin

Most of the time.

Anakin sweeps.

Someone who's best feat is beating the Dark Woman shouldn't really be compared to the Dooku Stomper.

Vader's best feat is having the upper hand on the Starkiller clone, not beating the Dark Woman, lol.

Starkiller is sub Kenobi Azronger :/
Ain't no thing defeating him

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Starkiller is sub Kenobi Azronger :/
Ain't no thing defeating him
Lol. In the force?

In sabers maybe. The Force is another matter entirely.

As a whole. If you go by the notion that Kenobi and Maul are equals as Lightsaber Duelists, then Starkiller is well below Kenobi. He's a 50/50 split with both Maul, Obi-Wan, Malgus etc. guys like that because if they close in quick enough he gets completely outclassed in sabers and dies in a minute or two. Obviously if he just starts 'spamming' force attacks which the entire dckhead population of SW debaters thinks he does, he wins.

So you concede Starkiller > Kenobi in the Force, good.

Obviously. But he isn't God tier at all, Dooku would school Starkiller so hard.

Originally posted by Azronger
Vader's best feat is having the upper hand on the Starkiller clone, not beating the Dark Woman, lol.

Whatever high and mighty Force powers Starkiller/Marek have displayed are almost irrelevant to how he fights. He's an abhorrent duelist and has demonstrated poor defences against other force users.

Still better than the Dark Woman.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Obviously. But he isn't God tier at all, Dooku would school Starkiller so hard.

Overall combat, yes. Raw power, no.

Damn, how times have changed.

Anakin
Vader
Anakin, usually

Vader in all.

Anakin
Vader
Anakin

Split
Vader
Vader

Skywaker wins all.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Vader in all.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Vader in all.

Originally posted by SunRazer

RotS Anakin, in a perfect state of clarity (ie. in the opening stages of his battle against Dooku)

Wait...what does "perfect state of clarity" mean? At the opening states of their battle, he was using a ploy form, so it's tough to tell how good he was. But a "perfect clarity" Anakin would theoretically destroy Palpatine, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
RotS Anakin, in a perfect state of clarity (ie. in the opening stages of his battle against Dooku)
He wasn't in a perfect state of clarity in the opening.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He wasn't in a perfect state of clarity in the opening.



His dread of his own power was still holding back his true strength.

Vader

Vader is stronger but Anakin is faster; Vader is also much more skilled with sabers and the Force

Vader takes all three

Vader's not much more skilled. Heck, he isn't more skilled at all.

And stronger? I doubt it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader's not much more skilled. Heck, he isn't more skilled at all.

And stronger? I doubt it.

Vader has had decades to hone his skills as a duelist and in the Force by ROTJ, also he's a cyborg with artificial limbs, by default he's stronger. This is specifically stated in the novel Rise of Darth Vader.

Vader had to completely retool his fighting style. We know that his armor hindered his actions. And neither his feats nor accolades ever reach Anakin's league again

Yes, he's obviously much stronger naturally due to his mechanical body. But Anakin's Force augmentation is much stronger, so that balances it out. Given that Anakin's strength output exceeds the likes of Grievous and Yoda, I doubt you could bring up feats for Vader that are in excess of that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
But Anakin's Force augmentation is much stronger, so that balances it out.


Don't see how when Vader's more powerful in the Force.

LMAO, the cybernetics stop the Force from flowing through Vader's body fully, he can not amp his muscles to the same degree as Anakin.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Given that Anakin's strength output exceeds the likes of Yoda,

Yeah Neph, he is easily matching Yoda's strength in the best state of mind clarity can afford him. He also has the weight, leverage and stylistic advantage.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Given that Anakin's strength output exceeds the likes of Yoda,

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1IkGj5Ghgm4/hqdefault.jpg

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Yeah Neph, he is easily matching Yoda's strength in the best state of mind clarity can afford him. He also has the weight, leverage and stylistic advantage.

Yoda overpowered Sidious in a saberlock. The same Sidious who pushed back Savage Oppress with one hand while laughing.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1IkGj5Ghgm4/hqdefault.jpg

Noobsnowman confirmed. Lol, I always wondered why you got so upset with me before, now it all makes sense.

@Neph, Yoda and Palpatine seem to be pretty even as far as augmentation goes, and Yoda disarms him through superior skill - which makes sense. However, ROTS Anakin is confirmed to be a new type of beast than his former self in TCW and was legitimately battering Dooku, on all accounts.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Vader in all.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
LMAO, the cybernetics stop the Force from flowing through Vader's body fully, he can not amp his muscles to the same degree as Anakin.


Given Vader is vastly more powerful in the Force, he may be able to. Not that he needs to given his Cybernetic strength on top.

That's some legit wankery rite there. But nevertheless, I'll indulge. What makes Vader a better duelist in terms of Force power? Because all the evidence suggests the suit, the loss of living tissue and the obstruction of metal appendages makes it harder to call on the Force in a sword fight, not easier. Why can Luke, someone who's aptitude is no better than Anakin's, match Vader without any where near the level of training Padawan Anakin received?

LOL @ legit wankery

Sure the suit makes it harder to amp But that's offset against Vader being more powerful in the Force. Plus the fact that the cybernetics can give a tremendous amount of strength and speed even without force usage.. Grievous anyone?

Fact is though he DOES still amp his physical abilities through the Force as confirmed in LOTS.


As for Luke beating Vader, that's an ambiguous example to use given Luke being the Chosen One Take 2, and given Luke was doing exactly what Vader wanted him to do- I.e attack him in a frenzy and go for the berserker kill.

No point in lowballing with this "Luke was a noob and beat Vader" nonsense anymore, when the new Canon has made it perfectly clear that even ridiculously well trained Sith like Maul know they are no match for him, showing superiority over classically well trained Non-Cyborgs like Ahsoka and stomping less than fully trained Jedi 1 handed.

Featless paper-machine dies

Originally posted by McP
Featless paper-machine dies


Featless?

Overpowered an opponent who was rivalling Maul. Stomped Kanan one handed in a non-context. Has the best TK feat in Canon - crushing an AT-AT, solod a Rebel fleet, shown powerful force shields...

And that's just in Canon. Yeah featles.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
That's some legit wankery rite there. But nevertheless, I'll indulge. What makes Vader a better duelist in terms of Force power? Because all the evidence suggests the suit, the loss of living tissue and the obstruction of metal appendages makes it harder to call on the Force in a sword fight, not easier. Why can Luke, someone who's aptitude is no better than Anakin's, match Vader without any where near the level of training Padawan Anakin received?

"while Anakin's raw power was immense, his knowledge of the Force was limited to fairly straightforward techniques"

"the Jedi Knight Jax Pavan acknowledged that he had never encountered a Force-user as powerful as Vader"

"Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological,"

"After Vader's injuries, his natural strength was vastly augmented by the addition of his cybernetic enhancements. In addition, Vader retained the ability to increase his physical abilities by using the Force. In fact, despite the cumbersome weight of his armor and prosthetics, Vader was still capable of moving faster than the human eye could perceive by using precision bursts of the Force speed technique."

Wookiepedia, I take it?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
LOL @ legit wankery

You can mock the terminology, but that's what it is Thor. Have you ever considered the possibility of Vader being weaker than Anakin, and that any vast discrepancy in power is more than likely to favour his younger, less droid-like state?



So it's a concession?



That doesn't make sense. The Force is just a metaphsical energy that can be harnessed by someone with enough midi-chlorians. The Force doesn't suddenly become stronger in him all of a sudden unless he get's better at channeling it - which requires living tissue, an element of lesser abundance for the suited-up Vader.



Vader's cybernetics increase the strength of whatever part of the limb they're replacing, in the case of a duel, it's his forearms and wrists. While they might be stronger than whatever strength increases an average Jedi can hope to muster when drawing upon the Force, they're also capped to a certain level of exertion. Vader can not use the Force to enhance his these spare parts, so wether he's actually stronger than Anakin or not, is yet to be confirmed.



In a thread where Anakin Skywalker, at the height of his abilties, is your opponent, than it's not an ambiguous example at all, it is a actually the best example to use. Even if Luke is the Chosen One incarnate, I wasn't aware that made him better than Anakin and t's quite the opposite is the case - Anakin's potential is greater than Luke's. May I remind you this - the idea of Luke being the second-coming of his father, came from George Lucas himself, the same guy who claimed Vader was a crippled half-droid and out of his prime.



Luke matched him before that catalystic event, according to numerous sources, and I doubt he was doing exactly what Vader wanted when cutting the messenger's hand off.



We'll it happened, and it happened in the highest order of illustration for both Canon and Legends, the movies. Even if Luke's potential isn't diluted, he has nowhere near the training of the chosen-one primera, and that's just talking about Attack of the Clones Anakin.



1) I am taking in regard everything that was declared canon, past or present, that illustrated these two in a form of media. Reducing the argument to new Canon artistry is just a way to dismiss sources unfavourable to your argument.

2) Maul has always been a joke in Legends, and is now an old Joke in Rebels. I was the first one to call it, and now everyone can see how abundantly clear Maul's failings are. Press this point, and you will loose

3) Ashoka is neither better trained nor does she have the potential of Anakin Skywalker, Vader beating her in an arena that swelled with visible darkside Energy means very little in terms of how he fights his younger, faster, more powerful and less handicapped self

4) Anakin is legitimately the better of Dooku who has humiliated more competent Jedi than Kanan. Sora Bulq & Tholme simultaneously, Obi Wan, Quinlan Vos. Vader neither compares in Legends or Canon, as someone who's most notable kill is the Dark Woman.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He wasn't in a perfect state of clarity in the opening.

Well, you know what I mean.

^ that doesn't mean it wasn't because of skill

Maybe not, but it was mostly speed. The skill edge was negligible.

Anakin
Vader
Vader

So, the same advantages he had against ROTJ Luke Skywalker?

https://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/streng10.png



Anakin is physically stronger than Vader though.

Apparently not according to the quote I just posted.

Also the fact that he had access to all that information explains Vader's greater mastery of the force. (as well as his 20+ further years of experience)

Originally posted by Rebel95
Apparently not according to the quote I just posted.

Also the fact that he had access to all that information explains Vader's greater mastery of the force.
The quote doesn't state he has *greater* "feats of strength," but rather the "feats of strength" he has distinguishes him from Anakin. That doesn't mean they were better - just that some of Darth Vader's actions, like choking an Imperial guard with his hands, is unique compared to Anakin. In regards to the second part of the quote, there's little indication that it's pertaining to combat abilities, since it merely says it helped him discover the names of the Jedi he's tracking.

Vader in all.

Anakin in all, and pretty easily too.

Ok, let's break it down. The quote states that Vader's feats of strength distinguished him from Anakin, meaning either:
a)He has strength feats and Anakin doesn't
b)He has more feats of strength than Anakin
c)He has better feats of strength than Anakin

We both know it's not a, obviously, because Anakin has plenty feats of strength. So it's either b or c (or both)

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Vader in all.
Force: Vader 9/10
Sabers: not sure honestly
All out: Vader 7-8/10

Originally posted by Rebel95
Ok, let's break it down. The quote states that Vader's feats of strength distinguished him from Anakin, meaning either:
a)He has strength feats and Anakin doesn't
b)He has more feats of strength than Anakin
c)He has better feats of strength than Anakin

We both know it's not a, obviously, because Anakin has plenty feats of strength. So it's either b or c (or both)
Well by laying that out, you concede it's ambiguous.

So I'll pick... a or b. Whatever the case, it doesn't mean anything.

Anakin has demonstrably greater strength feats over Vader.

You need a more definitive quote to conclude what you want.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Force: Vader 9/10
Anakin's hurling dreadnoughts in seconds and collapsing 30 x 90 domes with screams. He's more powerful than Vader.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin's hurling dreadnoughts in seconds and collapsing 30 x 90 domes with screams. He's more powerful than Vader.

Vader's confirmed to be more powerful then him by quotes.

Dry those tears.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin has demonstrably greater strength feats over Vader.

Would love to hear about these.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Vader's confirmed to be more powerful then him by quotes.

Dry those tears.
Quote?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Would love to hear about these.
Stated to be physically stronger than Yoda, giving Dooku's strength an absolute beating when he had no issue against Windu, Yoda, or Grievous, ripping crab droids apart with his hands, etc.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Stated to be physically stronger than Yoda, giving Dooku's strength an absolute beating when he had no issue against Windu, Yoda, or Grievous, ripping crab droids apart with his hands, etc.

The first comes along with another claim that we know is patently false. That being him having greater speed then Yoda.

The second is untrue since his strength did absolutely nothing to Dooku before he switched to Djem So meaning it's wasn't solely his physical strength but his strength paired with the form that allowed him do so well against Dooku.

The third is not better then Vader's strength feats.

Oh man we're really doing this.

I've been waiting to get you into this debate for a while.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin's hurling dreadnoughts in seconds and collapsing 30 x 90 domes with screams. He's more powerful than Vader.
What combat force feats does Anakin have?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well by laying that out, you concede it's ambiguous.

So I'll pick... a or b. Whatever the case, it doesn't mean anything.

Anakin has demonstrably greater strength feats over Vader.

You need a more definitive quote to conclude what you want.
The quote is pretty definitive, I was laying it out that way to help you understand, since you don't seem to (or just don't want to). If Vader's feats of strength distinguish him from Anakin, it's because he has more, or they're just better.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The first comes along with another claim that we know is patently false.

Oh my, that's not how quotes work. You'll need a better rebutal than that.





mmm

The text is explicit that Anakin's sheer physical strength cannot be handled by Dooku.

Also, he was toying with him when using Shien, hence the lack of domination.

The plan was to lure Dooku into a false sense of confidence an d comfort, after all.

That doesn't mean Darth Vader is more powerful than peak ROTS Anakin Skywalker, just Obi-Wan-TK-matching Anakin Skywalker.



I don't think you realize that Darth Vader considers himself and Anakin Skywalker as completely different beings?

He wouldn't be considering Anakin Skywalker in this.

Originally posted by Rebel95
What combat force feats does Anakin have?

The two TK feats I listed were done in a split-second sort of notice.



If he has more, that doesn't mean they were better.

It's ambiguous because, as you stated, it could mean three different things.

That's from Canon.



Already been addressed. Most works consider Pre-suit Darth Vader to still be Anakin Skywalker. Even people like George Lucas and Nick Gillard do. Not until the armored transformation is there a consistent listing as Anakin Skywalker as Darth Vader. Merely view 4/5 books, and you'd find Mustafar Anakin Skywalker still being referred to as Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Vader. In fact, the Revenge of the Sith novelization specifies, in detail, that he's still Anakin Skywalker foremost.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


That doesn't mean Darth Vader is more powerful than peak ROTS Anakin Skywalker, just Obi-Wan-TK-matching Anakin Skywalker.

Really? Where does it say that?

Which legends have to acknowledge, given that they are legends stemming from actual events.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


That doesn't mean Darth Vader is more powerful than peak ROTS Anakin Skywalker, just Obi-Wan-TK-matching Anakin Skywalker.



I don't think you realize that Darth Vader considers himself and Anakin Skywalker as completely different beings?

He wouldn't be considering Anakin Skywalker in this.

Only if you take the position that the quote references that version of Anakin specifically rather then in general...

You understand that he actually doesn't though? Like, he tries to forget about his past and remove himself from that time in his life but he's not going to ignore his previous capabilities when reassessing them later on. Like in Rise of Darth Vader just after he's put into his suit.

It's not proven false.

It's stated in at least half-a-dozen sources that lightsaber fights are faster than the eye can seen, and that the opponents react via reflexes and the Force.



What?



Where? Especially considering...

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/73/92/12/yooo10.png

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Only if you take the position that the quote references that version of Anakin specifically rather then in general...

You understand that he actually doesn't though? Like, he tries to forget about his past and remove himself from that time in his life but he's not going to ignore his previous capabilities when reassessing them later on. Like in Rise of Darth Vader just after he's put into his suit.
That's not a position. It's saying Darth Vader is more powerful now than he was the last time he fought Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The last time he fought Obi-Wan Kenobi, he was notably weaker than usual.

---

You do realize RotDV happens in, like, 18 BBY? Refer to ESB and ROTJ, and you'd find Darth Vader actively denies any relationship with Anakin. The notion he would change that for a lightsaber or Force analysis of himself is laughable.

Originally posted by ILS
Which legends have to acknowledge, given that they are legends stemming from actual events.
ILS, I hate to break the news, but I think you're the only one on board your crazy Legends/Canon relationship theory.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


It's not proven false.

It's stated in at least half-a-dozen sources that lightsaber fights are faster than the eye can seen, and that the opponents react via reflexes and the Force.



What?



Where? Especially considering...

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/73/92/12/yooo10.png

It is. Actively targeting your opponent with ranged attacks like Yoda did indicates a higher reaction time then only barely being capable of seeing them fade in and out existence.

Faster then normal perceptions. We know from RotS people like Obi Wan and Anakin are capable of percieving sublight speed fighters.

After Dooku had already been tired out beforehand and when Anakin's rage was ramping up.

The quote you provided confirms that they weren't using their advanced forms but the text makes it clear that Anakin is actively trying to defeat Dooku even with these more basic forms and that he's growing frustrated at his failure to do so.

If you're asking where in the quote specifically it's where it's noting that Anakin is going in for the kill, charging Dooku while his back is turned and then growing frustrated at his lack of results.

Can you please quote the specific point you're referring to?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It is. Actively targeting your opponent with ranged attacks like Yoda did indicates a higher reaction time then only barely being capable of seeing them fade in and out existence.

Faster then normal perceptions. We know from RotS people like Obi Wan and Anakin are capable of percieving sublight speed fighters.

No, Jedi and Sith also don't perceive fights with their eyes.

For an example, to Yoda, Palpatine was a blur.



Neither statements are true.



Where does the text state they were actively trying to best him?



In a world where individuals have Danger Sense and Force Sense, that doesn't remotely suggest Anakin was working to kill Dooku to the extent he was dishing out all his powers to the fullest bar Djem So.

Fact of the matter is, while Anakin would have obviously aimed for killing Dooku here, he wasn't trying. It was sort of a "if he dies, that's great, but the foremost goal is to make Dooku think he's kicking our ass."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's not a position. It's saying Darth Vader is more powerful now than he was the last time he fought Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The last time he fought Obi-Wan Kenobi, he was notably weaker than usual.

---

You do realize RotDV happens in, like, 18 BBY? Refer to ESB and ROTJ, and you'd find Darth Vader actively denies any relationship with Anakin. The notion he would change that for a lightsaber or Force analysis of himself is laughable.

You're limiting the quote so that it applies solely to Mustafar Anakin when based on the other quotes regarding the fight we have we know it's most likely referring to Anakin in general. You take into account all the sources available when trying to interpret something Ant.

He says that Anakin Skywalker is dead because he's trying to get across that any hint of the Lighside or the man he once was is gone. He's not going to ignore that he was more powerful as Anakin when musing that his power is greater then it has ever been in his lifetime. :/

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
ILS, I hate to break the news, but I think you're the only one on board your crazy Legends/Canon relationship theory. Appeal to majority aside, I'm describing the premise for the "legends" banner since it's inception. The old EU becomes a body of "legends" which may or may not have happened, whereas Canon is what definitely happened. "There is some truth in legends", to quote Ahsoka, essentially meaning that the creators will take elements from the old EU they like, but canon is still the authority.

That's what Force & Destiny also mentions in the section regarding the exaggerated nature of many legends.

So, in essence, what you are saying is that something which definitely happened - Vader becoming more powerful than Anakin - should be put to the side in favour of your interpretation of things that might have happened.

I mean fair enough, discuss legends. But at least know how it works.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Can you please quote the specific point you're referring to?

In regards to what?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, Jedi and Sith also don't perceive fights with their eyes.

For an example, to Yoda, Palpatine was a blur.



Neither statements are true.



Where does the text state they were actively trying to best him?



In a world where individuals have Danger Sense and Force Sense, that doesn't remotely suggest Anakin was working to kill Dooku to the extent he was dishing out all his powers to the fullest bar Djem So.

Fact of the matter is, while Anakin would have obviously aimed for killing Dooku here, he wasn't trying. It was sort of a "if he dies, that's great, but the foremost goal is to make Dooku think he's kicking our ass."

And perceiving Sidious as a blur is a far better reaction feat then viewing Sidious as fading in and out of existence.

And obviously they rely on precognition but as I just showed they also have much better visual perception then a standard non force user and would actively employ that in combat as well.

Except they are. They're both noted in the novel. One in a quote I've already provided you with.

Where it states Anakin was going in for the kill.

Of course he's trying otherwise he wouldn't be growing frustrated at his failure to press Dooku. Just because they're keeping their full capabilities hidden it doesn't mean they're holding back in any other way and in fact the opposite is indicated.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You're limiting the quote so that it applies solely to Mustafar Anakin when based on the other quotes regarding the fight we have we know it's most likely referring to Anakin in general. You take into account all the sources available when trying to interpret something Ant.

... what?

Have you even read the passage you're quoting?

It first has a paragraph about Mustafar Anakin vs Obi-Wan Kenobi, and then in the next paragraph discusses Vader vs Ben Kenobi.

That context isn't needed though, since the text is explicit that Vader grew far more powerful since specifically the last time the two fought.



Why wouldn't he? Why are you drawing the line specifically at combat abilities? Seems pretty amusing and arbitrary to me.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And perceiving Sidious as a blur is a far better reaction feat then viewing Sidious as fading in and out of existence.

And obviously they rely on precognition but as I just showed they also have much better visual perception then a standard non force user and would actively employ that in combat as well.

Except they are. They're both noted in the novel. One in a quote I've already provided you with.

Where it states Anakin was going in for the kill.
It's all hyperbole. The quotes both mean that they're moving fast. The text also states Fisto's blade was a blur to Anakin. Does that mean he can't see that too?

Which isn't relevant, since the quotes I'm referring to state lightsaber fights take place faster than the combatants can see.

You do recognize the distinction between wanting to kill someone and giving your full, right?

Originally posted by ILS
Appeal to majority aside, I'm describing the premise for the "legends" banner since it's inception. The old EU becomes a body of "legends" which may or may not have happened, whereas Canon is what definitely happened. "There is some truth in legends", to quote Ahsoka, essentially meaning that the creators will take elements from the old EU they like, but canon is still the authority.

That's what Force & Destiny also mentions in the section regarding the exaggerated nature of many legends.

So, in essence, what you are saying is that something which definitely happened - Vader becoming more powerful than Anakin - should be put to the side in favour of your interpretation of things that might have happened.

I mean fair enough, discuss legends. But at least know how it works.
Yeah, no. Legends and Canon are completely independent of one-another.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
... what?

Have you even read the passage you're quoting?

It first has a paragraph about Mustafar Anakin vs Obi-Wan Kenobi, and then in the next paragraph discusses Vader vs Ben Kenobi.

That context isn't needed though, since the text is explicit that Vader grew far more powerful since specifically the last time the two fought.



Why wouldn't he? Why are you drawing the line specifically at combat abilities? Seems pretty amusing and arbitrary to me.

Anakin wasn't less powerful on Mustafar. He was hindered certainly but his power wasn't diminished. Only less focused and uncontrolled. Regardless since another quote referencing the fight refers to general power taken in context we can understand this quote is likely referring to the incarnation rather then his specific state at the time.

Because there's no reason for him to pretend as if he never was Anakin when the only time he's ever denied a connection to his former self was to make a point to Luke that he would never again be able to return to the Lightside or be the man he once was.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yeah, no. Legends and Canon are completely independent of one-another. In the sense that one factually happened and the other one is legends/stories stemming from the primary events? Yeah, totally different.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Anakin wasn't less powerful on Mustafar. He was hindered certainly but his power wasn't diminished. Only less focused and uncontrolled. Regardless since another quote referencing the fight refers to general power taken in context we can understand this quote is likely referring to the incarnation rather then his specific state at the time.

No, he was demonstrably less powerful in his Force lock with Obi-Wan Kenobi.



No, that's not true. He denies any connection with Anakin Skywalker when talking to the Emperor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnHdOhLVo14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaBlw1gNWdg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's all hyperbole. The quotes both mean that they're moving fast. The text also states Fisto's blade was a blur to Anakin. Does that mean he can't see that too?

Which isn't relevant, since the quotes I'm referring to state lightsaber fights take place faster than the combatants can see.

You do recognize the distinction between wanting to kill someone and giving your full, right?

If that's the case why would Stover make a point to differentiate them like that? Vaapad amped Mace also saw Sidious as a blur and his senses would be elevated to Sidious's level at that point which would seem to indicate that Anakin is simply outclassed in this regard over characters like amped Windu and Yoda.

Quote?

If you're attempting to kill someone you're not going to be pulling punches except where it's specifically noted you are. Here it's Anakin and Obi Wan not using their main forms. I imagine if they could have beaten Dooku with these basic forms before switching to more advanced ones that would have suited them just fine.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
If that's the case why would Stover make a point to differentiate them like that? Vaapad amped Mace also saw Sidious as a blur and his senses would be elevated to Sidious's level at that point which would seem to indicate that Anakin is simply outclassed in this regard over characters like amped Windu and Yoda.
That's clearly not what he's going for when he states within the same work that Anakin Skywalker might be more powerful than Yoda.

Contradictions like these might occur when comparing different works with different authors, but Stover isn't stupid or forgetful - you're reading into it too hard.



"They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could follow, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself calling on the Force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter."

The perspective of this is the third-person limited narrator hovering over the perspective of Luke.

I'm assuming "the eye can follow" being Luke Skywalker's since it then states that "blows came out of nowhere" in reference to Caedus vs him.



That's exactly what he's doing though.

During the early stages of the fight, here are their goals (in order of importance):

1.) Lure Dooku into a false sense of confidence.
2.) Kill Dooku.

If the second one happens, that's great, but the first is far more important.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, he was demonstrably less powerful in his Force lock with Obi-Wan Kenobi.



No, that's not true. He denies any connection with Anakin Skywalker when talking to the Emperor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnHdOhLVo14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaBlw1gNWdg

His power was less focused. It doesn't mean it was diminished or had suddenly vanished. Just like Luke not being able to lift the X wing yet still having the raw power to defend against Vader's telekinesis. Simply because one lacks focus or concentration at the time it doesn't mean they don't possess that power.

The first is Vader denying that any former connections he had as Anakin matter to him now and the second was both a way for a big reveal to remain hidden and objectively Vader referring to himself in third person likely for the same reason he did so in the prior link you provided and his talk with Luke.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
His power was less focused. It doesn't mean it was diminished or had suddenly vanished. Just like Luke not being able to lift the X wing yet still having the raw power to defend against Vader's telekinesis. Simply because one lacks focus or concentration at the time it doesn't mean they don't possess that power.

The quote isn't suggesting Darth Vader has greater raw power than Anakin Skywalker - it's confirmed he doesn't.

The quote is stating that Darth Vader has greater power than Anakin Skywalker as of the Mustafar fight, which is true.

If Anakin Skywalker can't bring his raw power to bare, then his potential power is irrelevant.

What is relevant is what he can actually use as his power - and the amount he can use is inferior to what Darth Vader's can.

He was blatantly focused on overpowering Kenobi in the telekinetic lock, but was unable to do so, because his power was insufficient.





"It intensified, momentarily, Vader's own sense of anguish - to his crimes, now, he added guilt at the imagined repugnance of his appearance. But then this brought him to mind of the way he used to look - striking, and grand, with a wry tilt to his brow that hinted of invincibility and took in all of life with a wink. Yes, that was how he'd looked once.

And this memory brought a wave of other memories with it. Memories of brotherhood, and home. His dear wife. The freedom of deep space. Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan, his friend ... and how that friendship had turned. Turned, he knew not how - but got injected, nonetheless, with some uncaring virulence that festered, until ... hold. These were memories he wanted none of, not now. Memories of molten lava, crawling up his back ... no.

This boy had pulled him from that pit - here, now, with this act. This boy was good."

The above confirms that the memories of his former life was suppressed by Darth Vader and not referenced until after he killed Palpatine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's clearly not what he's going for when he states within the same work that Anakin Skywalker might be more powerful than Yoda.

Contradictions like these might occur when comparing different works with different authors, but Stover isn't stupid or forgetful - you're reading into it too hard.



"They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could follow, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself calling on the Force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter."

The perspective of this is the third-person limited narrator hovering over the perspective of Luke.



That's exactly what he's doing though.

During the early stages of the fight, here are their goals (in order of importance):

1.) Lure Dooku into a false sense of confidence.
2.) Kill Dooku

If the second one happens, that's great, but the first is far more important.

When it's made clear that Anakin is the most potentially powerful character in SW and when tapping into his rage begins to access it I'd think common sense would tell you that Stover is referencing what Anakin could become and not what he is. Especially when Sidious mentions that Anakin will become more powerful then either Yoda or himself which denotes that he is not more powerful then either one of them at this point in time.

And you're trying to come up with character motivations that make no sense to justify your position. In comparison I think noting that two Sidious tier opponents saw aforementioned character as a blur while Anakin was noted to have had viewed him with considerably more trouble when he is noted to be less then that level is entirely justifiable.

You understand that a third person description saying "faster then the eye can follow" is not going to be taking into account a third person omniscient force using viewer the fight? Similar to how a book might state "5 miles as the crow flies." Isn't going to be referencing a version of the bird that can move far faster then the objective comparison, an Earth crow.

The second is a step towards the goal of ultimately killing or capturing Dooku. If he can do that using a more basic form he will which is why the text notes he's actively attempting to do so.

Why are you guys assuming Dooku was exhausted in that fight?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
When it's made clear that Anakin is the most potentially powerful character in SW and when tapping into his rage begins to access it I'd think common sense would tell you that Stover is referencing what Anakin could become and not what he is. Especially when Sidious mentions that Anakin will become more powerful then either Yoda or himself which denotes that he is not more powerful then either one of them at this point in time.

No, because the context of most of Stover's quotes are Anakin Skywalker's current standing.



It's not.

- Anakin Skywalker, despite them moving in and out of existence, could register with his eyes that it was a "Koran Jedi Master."

- Anakin Skywalker, despite them moving in and out of existence, could register with his eyes that it was a "Palpatine."

- Anakin Skywalker's eyes soon thereafter adjusted and saw them merely as blurs anyhow.

So, no. Anakin not only registered what was going on in the case of the moving in and out, but also saw them as blurs regardless.

There's no distinction between that and any other situation.



... what? Not only is the narrator not omniscient, but it's referring to itself in the context of Luke Skywalker.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Why are you guys assuming Dooku was exhausted in that fight?
I'm not. They are.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The quote isn't suggesting Darth Vader has greater raw power than Anakin Skywalker - it's confirmed he doesn't.

The quote is stating that Darth Vader has greater power than Anakin Skywalker as of the Mustafar fight, which is true.

If Anakin Skywalker can't bring his raw power to bare, then his potential power is irrelevant.

What is relevant is what he can actually use as his power - and the amount he can use is inferior to what Darth Vader's can.

He was blatantly focused on overpowering Kenobi in the telekinetic lock, but was unable to do so, because his power was insufficient.





"It intensified, momentarily, Vader's own sense of anguish - to his crimes, now, he added guilt at the imagined repugnance of his appearance. But then this brought him to mind of the way he used to look - striking, and grand, with a wry tilt to his brow that hinted of invincibility and took in all of life with a wink. Yes, that was how he'd looked once.

And this memory brought a wave of other memories with it. Memories of brotherhood, and home. His dear wife. The freedom of deep space. Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan, his friend ... and how that friendship had turned. Turned, he knew not how - but got injected, nonetheless, with some uncaring virulence that festered, until ... hold. These were memories he wanted none of, not now. Memories of molten lava, crawling up his back ... no.

This boy had pulled him from that pit - here, now, with this act. This boy was good."

The above confirms that the memories of his former life was suppressed by Darth Vader and not referenced until after he killed Palpatine.

It's confirmed he does. By both himself and third person sources.

Going by your interpretation. And even doing his power isn't going to magically vanish in that fight.

That's true but it doesn't mean his power is lesser or diminished then.

That's not what the quote says though. It's a simple statement of power. Not the power they were capable of using.

Because his focus was insufficient*

"Vader's own sense of anguish - to his crimes, now

He didn't suppress his memories. He gained a new perspective on them. Where before he had justified his actions and embraces his hatred he now realized it was just his bitterness, shame and sadness at what he had done.

Man, you're willing to go far to justify your bias. Saying that Vader pretended a part of his life never existed and then actively forced himself to undergo amnesia. Don't you ever take a look at your stances and get an undeniable urge to scoff at it like you do with most other people who express ridiculous notions?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Why are you guys assuming Dooku was exhausted in that fight?

Nobody said he was exhausted. It's noted that each of an enraged Anakin's blows is taking more energy then what it took for him to hurl Kenobi though meaning he's going to be exhausted.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Nobody said he was exhausted. It's noted that each of an enraged Anakin's blows is taking more energy then what it took for him to hurl Kenobi though meaning he's going to be exhausted. Is this information coming from the novel?

Raw power is potential power.



His applicable power changes based off circumstance.



No, the quote is comparing Anakin Skywalker's power on Mustafar to Vader's on the Death Star.

Whereas Skywalker's power is diminished, Vader's is not.



The "to his crimes" is still referring to him within his suit. Then the text states that recognizing the guilt of this "brought him to mind of the way he used to look - striking, and grand, with a wry tilt to his brow that hinted of invincibility and took in all of life with a wink. Yes, that was how he'd looked once." And with such came a wave of additional memories, etc.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Is this information coming from the novel?
If Anakin can force Dooku into exhaustion in a few attacks, then it's clear he's far stronger than him anyway.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, because the context of most of Stover's quotes are Anakin Skywalker's current standing.



It's not.

- Anakin Skywalker, despite them moving in and out of existence, could register with his eyes that it was a "Koran Jedi Master."

- Anakin Skywalker, despite them moving in and out of existence, could register with his eyes that it was a "Palpatine."

- Anakin Skywalker's eyes soon thereafter adjusted and saw them merely as blurs anyhow.

So, no. Anakin not only registered what was going on in the case of the moving in and out, but also saw them as blurs regardless.

There's no distinction between that and any other situation.



... what? Not only is the narrator not omniscient, but it's referring to itself in the context of Luke Skywalker.

And they're proven to be impossible by both character statements, novel descriptions of events and his showings.

Or maybe he knew it was Mace because he could see the purple afterimages and he knew the color of Mace's blade? Lmao.

Perhaps because only one combatant in that fight was a Sith and no one else wielded a red lightsabers? I mean, this is getting kind of sad. I shouldn't have to explain basic common sense to you.

Quote?

Read above. ^

Not at all. It makes a statement from a third person perspective and then notes that the blows came out of nowhere before switching to an action Luke made through his perspective.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Is this information coming from the novel?

Yes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If Anakin can force Dooku into exhaustion in a few attacks, then it's clear he's far stronger than him anyway.

An Anakin drawing on his rage.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
An enraged Anakin.
False.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes. Isn't it also stated Dooku thought he was to be arrested? So it's possible Dooku wasn't give his all.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Isn't it also stated Dooku thought he was to be arrested? So it's possible Dooku wasn't give his all.
No, that was after Dooku stated he was going against protocol and would kill Skywalker.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Raw power is potential power.



His applicable power changes based off circumstance.



No, the quote is comparing Anakin Skywalker's power on Mustafar to Vader's on the Death Star.

Whereas Skywalker's power is diminished, Vader's is not.



The "to his crimes" is still referring to him within his suit. Then the text states that recognizing the guilt of this "brought him to mind of the way he used to look - striking, and grand, with a wry tilt to his brow that hinted of invincibility and took in all of life with a wink. Yes, that was how he'd looked once." And with such came a wave of additional memories, etc.

You've just reversed positions. Previous you claimed that someone's raw or potential power is a source that a character is capable of drawing on in moments of focus or rage.

But not his power as a whole.

In your interpretation.

The difference being that the quote isn't referencing employable power but power in general.

Recalling the details of how you used to look doesn't indicate that you suppressed your memories.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, that was after Dooku stated he was going against protocol and would kill Skywalker. Either way I'm not so sure we ever saw Dooku go all out. He seemed to arrogant for that.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Either way I'm not so sure we ever saw Dooku go all out. He seemed to arrogant for that.
He was going all out against Yoda and Anakin.

Damn it. It's not letting me edit now either.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You've just reverses positions. Previous you claimed that someone's raw or potential power is a source that a character is capable of drawing on in moments of focus or rage.

But not his power as a whole.

In your interpretation.

The difference being that the quote isn't referencing employable power but power in general.

Recalling the details of how you used to look doesn't indicate that you suppressed your memories.

No, raw power or potential power can be drawn upon, in which the amount you do is applicable power.

Which isn't what it's referring to, unless you think it's suggesting Darth Vader > the Father.

No, it's not for reasons above. If it was, though, then it's automatically retconed by a Lucas quote.

Only after feeling the guilt of his current crimes could his mind wander back to his old memories.

Thus, it was suppressed by virtue that only guilt could unlock it, and not until Palpatine's death did Vader have s

Regardless of all the side plots you've set up it comes down to two things.

Whether you want to accept what Vader is saying about himself or come up with some contrived perspective that Vader wasn't taking into account half of his life in those musing.

And if you put more stock in obviously hyperbolic narrative statements over the statement of Sidious despite all evidence to the contrary in regards to his vastly differing performances based on his mental state.

Which not only didn't contradict the quote, but didn't even hold up to the specific claims you made.



Go further with it. Explain how this means that my claim was wrong. Come on, you can do it.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Regardless of all the side plots you've set up it comes down to two things.

Whether you want to accept what Vader is saying about himself or come up with some contrived perspective that Vader wasn't taking into account half of his life in those musing.

It's confirmed that Darth Vader isn't referring to Anakin Skywalker.



This seems like a new argument from you altogether.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, raw power or potential power can be drawn upon, in which the amount you do is applicable power.

Which isn't what it's referring to, unless you think it's suggesting Darth Vader > the Father.

No, it's not for reasons above. If it was, though, then it's automatically retconed by a Lucas quote.

Only after feeling the guilt of his current crimes could his mind wander back to his old memories.

Thus, it was suppressed by virtue that only guilt could unlock it, and not until Palpatine's death did Vader have s

And you've stated that Anakin can tap into that full power given enough time to concentrate/focus or whilst in a rage.

Depends on your stance on Sidious's statement that it was Vader's mental state that inhibited his capabilities rather then his physical injuries.

Isn't this from the same batch of quotes where Lucas gave vague and uncertain answers for everything like Vader being 80% of Sidious, etc?

It's because he couldn't dwell on those memories without feeling guilt and weakness which as Darth Vader he'd want to suppress. It doesn't mean he actively couldn't remember them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Which not only didn't contradict the quote, but didn't even hold up to the specific claims you made.



Go further with it. Explain how this means that my claim was wrong. Come on, you can do it.

How? How does pointing out that Sidious doesn't think Anakin has surpassed either him or Yoda by that point or Anakin performing far beneath the pedestal you place him on?

And no Ant, I'm not going to respond your childish and antagonistic prodding.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's confirmed that Darth Vader isn't referring to Anakin Skywalker.



This seems like a new argument from you altogether.

Where? Where's your proof? Where does it say "More powerful then he's ever been. Oh, except not when he was Anakin Skywalker of course."

It's really not. It's the position I've held since before you even started your little crusade.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And you've stated that Anakin can tap into that full power given enough time to concentrate/focus or whilst in a rage.

Depends on your stance on Sidious's statement that it was Vader's mental state that inhibited his capabilities rather then his physical injuries.

Isn't this from the same batch of quotes where Lucas gave vague and uncertain answers for everything like Vader being 80% of Sidious, etc?

It's because he couldn't dwell on those memories without feeling guilt and weakness which as Darth Vader he'd want to suppress. It doesn't mean he actively couldn't remember them.
He can always tap into it - it's a matter of how much he can. That changes on his emotional state.

Lucas clarified it was his physical injuries and cybernetics.

Yes.

No, it means he couldn't reference them without first recognizing the guilt. If Darth Vader could actively think upon them, he would have been redeemed a long time sooner. The point was that, when transforming into Darth Vader and submerging himself into the dark side for decades, he lost his humanity and forgot what his past life was to the extent that he now viewed it as completely separate. Only after Luke's redemption did he remember he had a wife, etc.

I'm off for the night Ant.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Where? Where's your proof? Where does it say "More powerful then he's ever been. Oh, except not when he was Anakin Skywalker of course."

It's really not. It's the position I've held since before you even started your little crusade.
Our discussion specifying Vader suppressed his memories.

I meant in regards to our discussion.

Whatever the case, the most arrogant person in Star Wars doesn't trump an omniscient narrator.

Lol. Our discussion isn't canon evidence you +wa+.

Hm?

Just because you don't think Vader ever thinks in terms of considering his former self doesn't mean he doesn't.

You have no evidence other then your opinion based on conversations where he's refereed to himself in the third person.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Whatever the case, the most arrogant person in Star Wars doesn't trump an omniscient narrator.

Exactly. He doesn't. I'm glad you've given up your campaign Ant.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Exactly.
So Palpatine's comments that Vader was soon become more powerful doesn't trump the narrator of ROTS.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Just because you don't think Vader ever thinks in terms of considering his former self doesn't mean he doesn't.

You have no evidence other then your opinion based on conversations where he's refereed to himself in the third person.
I have the text, whereas your arbitrarily drawing a line in the sand.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He can always tap into it - it's a matter of how much he can. That changes on his emotional state.

Lucas clarified it was his physical injuries and cybernetics.

Yes.

No, it means he couldn't reference them without first recognizing the guilt. If Darth Vader could actively think upon them, he would have been redeemed a long time sooner. The point was that, when transforming into Darth Vader and submerging himself into the dark side for decades, he lost his humanity and forgot what his past life was to the extent that he now viewed it as completely separate. Only after Luke's redemption did he remember he had a wife, etc.

That's what I've been saying. Regardless I already stated that I disagreed the quote was referring to Mustafar Anakin specifically given the other quotes referencing the encounter.

I don't see why those should be taken over third person omniscient author quotes granted I understand why one would side with them over Sidious's musings.

He didn't forget them. He just refused to think about them or view them in a light that would allow him to come to terms with them. He even thinks of Padme and Obi Wan at the beginning of RotJ using his memories of them to fuel his rage.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So Palpatine's comments that Vader was soon become more powerful doesn't trump the narrator of ROTS.

Ah, thought you were referring to yourself in regards to SW debating.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I have the text, whereas your arbitrarily drawing a line in the sand.

You have your interpretation of the text. I have mine.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That's what I've been saying.

I don't see why those should be taken over third person omniscient author quotes granted I understand why one would side with them over Sidious's musings.

He didn't forget them. He just refused to think about them or view them in a light that would allow him to come to terms with them. He even thinks of Padme and Obi Wan at the beginning of RotJ using his memories of them to fuel his rage.
Cool.

Hm?

If he refused to think about them, then he wouldn't be thinking about them in the analysis of skill and power.

When does he think about Padme? He thinks about Ben since he's apart of his life following the transformation.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Cool.

Hm?

If he refused to think about them, then he wouldn't be thinking about them in the analysis of skill and power.

When does he think about Padme? He thinks about Ben since he's apart of his life following the transformation.

Read my post on the last page. I added the point that the other quote regarding the encounter clarifies that it wouldn't just be in reference to Mustafar Anakin.

He didn't refuse to think about them and that's the point. He refused to think about them in a way that would allow him to reconcile his actions. Assessing his former power isn't something that would threaten that.

I can't think of any on hand honestly but I'm sure there are.

Does anybody have examples of times Vader thought of Padme as Vader?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Read my post on the last page.

He didn't refuse to think about them and that's the point. He refused to think about them in a way that would allow him to reconcile his actions. Assessing his former power isn't something that would threaten that.

I can't think of any on hand honestly but I'm sure there are.
No, he suppressed his memories of the past.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Does anybody have examples of times Vader thought of Padme as Vader?
I don't think any exist following 18ish BBY.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, he suppressed his memories of the past.

One moment.

There you go Ant. Vader remembering something from his past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ImKFaJ60io

That's non-canon. It's from Infinities, IIRC.