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Sirak vs. the median Jedi master from the PT era.

Who wins?

Sirak.

Jedi master

Originally posted by Total Warrior
Jedi master

Meister Jedi

up

Originally posted by JKBart
Meister Jedi

Sirak. A median Jedi Master is, well, fairly normal (people here had a tendency to class anyone not high tier/at least council level as 'fodder'... and sometimes even then). There's a ton of Jedi masters after all, we often only focus on the strong ones. Even relatively lower ones like Aayla Secura and Bultar Swan are noted as having impressive combat reputations. They're still above-median.


Sirak's era is not the strongest, but it should be noted how normal students of the Sith Academy were counted as stronger than many *combat veteran* Sith Lords who, despite inferior training, were still experienced force users. Sirak in turn stood hand and shoulders above everyone at the academy not named 'Bane.' At graduation, the academy students were not to be mere sith warriors, but full Sith Lords.

I think Githany could handle a median Jedi Master. I think Sirak is actually quite formidable and it'd definitely take someone higher up in the Clone War Jedi Masters to take him. His force abilities were solid and he was a skillful duelist.

It's just worth considering, the CW Jedi Order does have a few dozen people fitting that description. It is undoubtably the stronger era even putting aside the super-elite top people like Anakin and Windu. But that doesn't make the Brotherhood's higher people nothing to the PT era Jedi by any means, that is assuming too much, they'd still be a serious threat and even outmatch many normal Jedi masters.

Originally posted by Q99
Sirak. A median Jedi Master is, well, fairly normal (people here had a tendency to class anyone not high tier/at least council level as 'fodder'... and sometimes even then). There's a ton of Jedi masters after all, we often only focus on the strong ones. Even relatively lower ones like Aayla Secura and Bultar Swan are noted as having impressive combat reputations. They're still above-median.


Look at Sirak, though; he couldn't even make more than a few sparks of lightning like halfway or so through PoD. Most random sith warriors from other eras can do that.



That note was made by Kopecz (or Qordis?), mainly in contempt of the pathetic sith lords at Ruusan rather than in praise of the academy. Most of these supposedly elite students had never wielded a real lightsaber or used lightning before.



They were promoted out of necessity, not readiness; Kas'im didn't even think Sirak was ready. Heck, if Sirak was so great, why hadn't he been promoted to sith lord yet?



Githany was clearly an apprentice who was still learning lots of basic things with Bane. The only reason why she was of any note to the brotherhood was that she defected from the Jedi Order; it's not like she was headhunted for her power or anything.

Sirak, meanwhile, hasn't actually done anything other than beat up some trainees. Does he have more potential than the median Jedi master? Probably. But that doesn't mean he's anywhere near realizing that, not when he had just learned Force lightning and was only made a sith lord in emergency circumstances.



The PT era Jedi is explicitly its combative prime, which is reflected in the tail end, .i.e. the part that we see. Clearly the likes of Yoda and Anakin are infinitely beyond any of the Jedi from Ruusan; but then you're implying that the median isn't as different as the tail end. That's possible, but I doubt that there's like no difference in the average Jedi's ability if the extraordinary ones are so disparate. Having a much larger standard deviation seems less likely than just being better on average.

Like, to clarify: the difference we're talking about is enormous. The PT Jedi Order has like 12-15 people who could defeat the Brotherhood's leader, Kaan, 9 or so who can beat their blademaster Kas'im, and maybe 4-7 who could defeat their sith'ari.

By the time he fought Bane, though, that was around graduation time, and note his specialties, his area of most talent, was bladework, and his best force area seemed to be force barriers, and did use lightning just fine in the final duel (blocked by lightsaber, but hey, that's normal for normal-level lightning).

Originally posted by The Ellimist

The PT era Jedi is explicitly its combative prime, which is reflected in the tail end, .i.e. the part that we see.

Yes, but combatative prime doesn't mean everyone's better, and I do think Sirak as a high-potential person is still going to be pretty formidable.

Note how in a lot of era, a student with high potential performs better than normal force users of higher rank. Ahsoka as a padawan was better than your average Knight and by the end was likely on Master level.



Sure. Shift it like, 3/4ths of a tier I figure. A Brotherhood Sith Warrior is gonna lose to a CW Jedi Knight. A Brotherhood Sith Lord is probably going to be a fair fight, maybe somewhat strong than a CW Knight but below a Jedi Master. A Brotherhood exceptional Lord will take on a Jedi Master, and the Brotherhood top-tier will take on an exceptional Jedi and maybe in the highest cases beating them- with the brotherhood having no-one to contest the CW Jedi's top members.


It is worth noting that potential isn't going to change much though, and unlike force powers their swordplay should be pretty solid due to practical experience (or learning from those with lots of practical experience).





Hm, you put Kas'im above Kaan...? Anyway, yea, I'd maybe knock a few off those numbers but we aren't too far apart.

Originally posted by Q99
By the time he fought Bane, though, that was around graduation time, and note his specialties, his area of most talent, was bladework, and his best force area seemed to be force barriers, and did use lightning just fine in the final duel (blocked by lightsaber, but hey, that's normal for normal-level lightning).


OK, so we know that Sirak is far, far below Kas'im, seeing as how he gets utterly humiliated by Bane, who at this point acknowledges that he is no match for the blademaster. He is also likely far beneath the likes of Qordis, seeing as how though Bane renders Sirak's existence redundant, it's implied that he was not yet past Qordis.

I honestly don't think it's clear that Sirak is above the average PT era Jedi master. He's above the typical Brotherhood sith lord for sure, but the Brotherhood was crowning sith lords left and right and even given their weak era, people like Kopecz were laughing at how pathetic lots of them were.

We can also look at Sirak's place in the brotherhood; he doesn't have an apprentice, nor does he formally command anyone or perform missions or anything of that nature. Kas'im wasn't even sure if he was ready to be a sith lord. Yet your PT era Jedi master usually has (or has had) an apprentice, can conduct missions independently, etc. It seems far more prestigious. And we can see Jedi prodigies like Obi Wan still being padawans despite being more powerful than most masters because the Jedi would be more careful in their progression, but I can't imagine a sith like Sirak being willing to remain a lowly apprentice if he actually were on the level of a full fledged master.



Then why hadn't he been made a sith lord yet? And I know that his bladework is better with lightning, but the latter still serves as a proxy for how far along he is in his training and development, which is to say not very compared to a master.




See above; the Jedi would be more cautious with their advancement, but I don't see why Sirak would still be hanging around beating up trainees with sticks if he really were a master.

Remember that most of the hype about Sirak comes from the trainees at the academy, who think he's the sith'ari because they've never actually been in a real fight in their lives.




That would work if the Brotherhood were promoting by the same relative standards. But they weren't; they were desperate and calling random nobodies "Sith Lords". The academy trainees they inducted had mostly never even used a lightsaber before.



Not sure about the potential part. The dark side grew stronger over the course of the RoT, and the Jedi were able to match accordingly given their unprecedented powerhouses. The Force seems to ebb and flow, and for whatever reason the PT era Jedi had incredible Force users.



Bane vs. Kas'im was a big fight, but when Bane arrives on Ruusan, Kaan doesn't have any illusions about even being a match for him.

Master wins