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Maul's most notable kill vs Vader's.

Well, technically she's only one of Vader's more notable kills.

Anyways, OT: probably the Dark Woman through esoteric means and all that jazz, but Jinn should take sabers, at least.

IDK, Bantha's making a pretty good case in the Aurra vs Kuro CV

Roan Shryne is arguably his most notable kill.

Lol

:7

Bump

Jinn destroys

Jinn decapitates the *****.

Jinn in a good fight.

The 'fight' would just be Kuro running around trying to hide and Jinn chasing :/
The Dark Woman is shit.

Well, she definitely wouldn't be relying on the cat and mouse tactic nearly as much as she did against Vader with Jinn, and her hype leads me to believe she should at least challenge an opponent of Jinn's caliber on her own merit as a duelist. Add in her esoteric abilities she should make a good fight of it, IMO.

I'm thinking Qui-Gon wins. He's got better accolades, and more strength, which we know the Dark Woman tires easily against.

Depends on the environment, I suppose. But in a neutral setting, I'm backing Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Roan Shryne is arguably his most notable kill.

Your little blade of grass is about to be set on fire, syn.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Jinn destroys

You're as wrong as the Jensaarai quote you have as your sig

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm thinking Qui-Gon wins. He's got better accolades, and more strength, which we know the Dark Woman tires easily against.

As opposed to Jinn never getting tired right?

Vader's most notable kill at this point is probably Commander Karbin.

...Or Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Lol

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vader's most notable kill at this point is probably Commander Karbin.

...Or Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Don't you mean sheev? :3

That to.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy


As opposed to Jinn never getting tired right?

He seems to last longer than the Dark Woman.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He seems to last longer than the Dark Woman.

You're comparing a full blown movie, with a novelization, a junior novelization, a Comic, a third novel that describes that fight and a bucketload of descriptions to a two-issue comic with like one source.

That aside, let's also try to remember who DW fought and how casually he nearly disarmed experienced duelists. I sincerely doubt that Jinn remotely compares to Vader in strength let alone Force Augmentation.

The amount of sources doesn't reflect how long the fight takes. In all media, it's clear that Qui-Gon vs Maul is a protracted fight.

I know how strong the Dark Woman is. Vader's stronger than, say, Maul, but as I recall, that didn't really show up when the two of them fought. And while Maul was stronger than Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon did send shudders through Maul's body when the two clashed blades.

Also, how much of the fight against Vader was her actually fighting? I recall her abusing esoteric powers, but when it came to actual fighting, she tired faster than Qui-Gon did against Maul in the TPM comic (which I assume would be the most comparable source).

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
That aside, let's also try to remember who DW fought and how casually he nearly disarmed experienced duelists.
You mean... kinda like this?

http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11122/111221607/5184960-vader+wrecking+an%27ya+2.jpg
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11122/111221607/5184955-vader+wrecking+an%27ya.jpg

Yea... I know Vader is physically stronger than Maul, but somehow I find this:


considerably more impressive than this:
http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11122/111221607/5184984-vader+wrecking+an%27ya+5.jpg
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11122/111221607/5184978-vader+wrecking+an%27ya+4.jpg
http://static9.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11122/111221607/5184975-vader+wrecking+an%27ya+3.jpg

It didn't seem as how An'ya was tiring, just Vader was physically overpowering her via the Aurra Sing treatment.

An'ya was obviously exhausted by the end. The part where she's blocking a blow before the tree comes down on her - she looks incredibly desperate.

1. It does matter. More material adds more detail to the fight. But we can agree to disagree if you want.

2. It did when she blocked that awkward af attack. Disregarding that shes certainly faster than Jinn given her fight with Vader. /shrug



3. When did she abuse her powers? Barring that singular moment?

Originally posted by SunRazer
An'ya was obviously exhausted by the end. The part where she's blocking a blow before the tree comes down on her - she looks incredibly desperate.

Because she's against a wall(well tree, actually) against one of the prime Jedi killers in the Star Wars universe, after sustaining an injury from H2H combat, maybe?

1. It doesn't matter when all material portray it as a long fight.

2. How? She used teleportation and other things against Vader. How does that make her faster?

3. The fight was drawn out because of her use of teleportation and Plant Surge. The rest of the duel itself isn't much.

Originally posted by MythLord
Because she's against a wall(well tree, actually) against one of the prime Jedi killers in the Star Wars universe, after sustaining an injury from H2H combat, maybe?

I only recall him ripping the lightsaber out of her hand, but I could be remembering things wrong.

Being against a tree makes no difference?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I only recall him ripping the lightsaber out of her hand, but I could be remembering things wrong.

Being against a tree makes no difference?

She also got thrown a considerable difference, and this was seconds before she got punched in the face by Vader.

I was speaking figuratively that she's cornered, and thus desperate.

She got punched in the face before she got floored by Vader :/

Amusingly enough, this was while An'ya was striking at Vader from above with two hands while Vader was on his back holding his lightsaber with one arm that was being yanked downward by the vines entangling it, and Vader still managed to completely overpower her strength, smack her across the face, and send her running.

An'ya pushed him back in the bladelock; Vader only gained an advantage upon using H2H. So great, An'ya isn't as strong as someone who can nearly disarm Galen in one swing, what else is new?

I also doubt the vines would've, at this point, in any way hindered Vader given how easily he rips them off. They served as a brief distraction initially, but by the time he hurled An'ya, he's hardly going to be restrained by them.

Ok. What comic did you guys read? She's never used teleportation in that comic? Wtf?

@dmb. He crushed her hand didn't he?

I think they're referring to the moment where she appears to use Fold Space, going from behind Vader into a waterfall behind him.

She ****ing leapt into the waterfalls lmao.

Bad art, then, lol. She leapt backwards, then we have Vader and her clashing blades, and then she's suddenly behind the waterfall with Vader sensing her coming from behind him.

She literally goes from in front of Vader to behind him before Vader can even turn around.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Bad art, then, lol. She leapt backwards, then we have Vader and her clashing blades, and then she's suddenly behind the waterfall with Vader sensing her coming from behind him.

She literally goes from in-front of Vader to behind him before Vader can even turn around.

Really? Are you sure? Imma look at the comic again cuz I swear she leaps back

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4005232-star+wars+tales+02-020.jpg

As I said, she's magically going from in front of Vader to behind him before he could move (it looks like Vader's holding his lightsaber in the same place, too, let alone failing to turn around). Unless she teleported, that would mean she leapt faster than he could react. Which makes no sense.

I mean its entirely possible(meh)

But we've seen Fold in action and this isn't it. I'd argue we just have a showing of Force Speed? I guess? Idfk.

Like, we have Vader in one instance on his back, being restrained by vines, with one hand on his lightsaber (the worst situation for leverage imaginable), and he still physically overpowered her and had her running before he even finished freeing himself from the vines.

In another instance, we have Vader, while unarmed, martially dominating an An'ya Kuro who is in fact armed with a lightsaber, grabbing her by the part of her body closest to her lightsaber blade, picking her up, and throwing her into the ground.

She very clearly isn't in any way comparable with Darth Vader as a martial combatant, and quite frankly Qui-Gon matching Maul's strength much more well has me inclined to say that he's the noticeable physical superior of the two.

I would like to ask the OP to clarify the setting of this match-up however, on neutral ground An'ya can't really pull any tricks like plant manipulation or use ambush tactics, and has no TK feats to speak of, so she'd fall to Qui-Gon's blade in that instance. With environmental factors at work though that changes up the game.

There's no way she went from in front of Vader to behind him before he could even move his lightsaber, let alone turn around. That's a blitz-tier speed disparity.

She teleported. I mean, she knows bullshit like Phase. It's not hard to imagine that she also knows this.

EDIT: Wookieepedia claims she used Teleport in Republic: Emissaries to Malastare. So she does know it.

That was Force Phase

I don't remember whatever instance the wiki is describing. I do remember her phasing through a wall, but I don't know if that's the instance being described here.

Regardless, it's not hard to imagine that she knew Teleportation if she knew Phase, and that's the only logical explanation for this.

People are seriously overestimating Jinn's performance against Maul here. First of all he did not match Maul's strength only "met it" - instead its actually remarked by Maul that he "cannot match my strength". And the only reason he lasted so long against Maul on Naboo was because Maul let him. Instead in a 1 v 1 on Tatooine (where Maul was slowed by an injured leg), he had Jinn dead to rights within 30 seconds, and Qui-Gon was left completely pooped after the fact:
Given that, Fated is right, Jinn's strength doesn't compare to Vader's in any way, and in a showdown with Darth Vader he would have got tanked and spanked to an embarrassing degree. Certainly not succeeding in overpowering the Dark Lord where Kuro failed.

Qui-Gon has been shat on. I feel sad.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
People are seriously overestimating Jinn's performance against Maul here. First of all he did not match Maul's strength only "met it" - instead its actually remarked by Maul that he "cannot match my strength". And the only reason he lasted so long against Maul on Naboo was because Maul let him. Instead in a 1 v 1 on Tatooine (where Maul was slowed by an injured leg), he had Jinn dead to rights within 30 seconds, and Qui-Gon was left completely pooped after the fact:
Given that, Fated is right, Jinn's strength doesn't compare to Vader's in any way, and in a showdown with Darth Vader he would have got tanked and spanked to an embarrassing degree. Certainly not succeeding in overpowering the Dark Lord where Kuro failed.

No one insinuated that Qui-Gon would overpower Vader. I assume you're referring to DMB wth the part about matching strength.

However, Qui-Gon sending shudders throughout Maul's body with their every blade clash suggests they're very close in strength, as opposed to the Dark Woman clearly straining every time she clashes blades with Vader and seemingly not even affecting Vader with her strength in the slightest, even when she was on the attack and with considerable buildup.

Regardless, Qui-Gon seems to have the better accolades as well. As a warrior, it appears like Qui-Gon is An'ya's better. The Dark Woman would probably triumph in an environment favorable to her, but otherwise, I'm backing Qui-Gon here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No one insinuated that Qui-Gon would overpower Vader. I assume you're referring to DMB wth the part about matching strength.DMB's argument rests on the assumption that Jinn would have done better than Kuro against Vader, particularly in that instance where she had him ensnared.Maul and Vader's strength are not equivalent in the slightest, so I don't know why you think this proves anything.

Regardless another misreading, the source material states that "Our blows send shudders through my body", something that proves nothing more than the fact that basic physics are in play, not that they are close in physical ability, they are not.

On the other hand, frankly? I find this to be more impressive:

http://i.imgur.com/p7EtYuw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FlEPP9P.jpg

Blocking a blow from Darth Vader in such a compromising position, and manage to escape him regardless demonstrates a level of strength in the Force I haven't seen from Jinn. And its no wonder that Vader regards her as a "worthy opponent" regardless, worthy even of being one of the Emperor's disciples. Jinn's praise as a warrior makes for a better argument I'd agree, but I think Kuro is more powerful in the Force.

I feel that Grandpa Obi Wan stalemating Vader indicates that Gin will not be getting decimated instantly by the Dark Lord's strength. Vader and Maul - at least of TPM - aren't too dissimilar in strength and that's when looking at some of Maul's feats in Lockdown, where he's trying to suppress his Force connection.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless another misreading, the source material states that "Our blows send shudders through my body", something that proves nothing more than the fact that basic physics are in play, not that they are close in physical ability, they are not.

Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle.
Source: Episode I Journal: Darth Maul



Originally posted by Beniboybling
On the other hand, frankly? I find this to be more impressive:

http://i.imgur.com/p7EtYuw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FlEPP9P.jpg

https://media.giphy.com/media/4CVsCh1VcUCME/giphy.gif

I find this more impressive than blocking a single strike.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I feel that Grandpa Obi Wan stalemating Vader indicates that Gin will not be getting decimated instantly by the Dark Lord's strength. Vader and Maul - at least of TPM - aren't too dissimilar in strength and that's when looking at some of Maul's feats in Lockdown, where he's trying to suppress his Force connection. Vader never demonstrated the all-out offense against Kenobi than he has against other adversaries, most likely a result of his cautious attitude as consequence of his defeat on Mustafar, nor is Jinn a master of Soresu.

And Maul is going to need more than his Lockdown feats to compare with Vader lol, not when the power of his blows was enough to almost disarm Galen Marek.Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle.
Source: Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Meet =/= match, I've already explained how the same source states he cannot do that. This is also stated to be the case in the TPM novelisation:
Why, when that's not Vader...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meet =/= match, I've already explained how the same source states he cannot do that. This is also stated to be the case in the TPM novelisation:

What you claimed is that they are not even close, which is obviously not true, since he met his strength.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why, when that's not Vader...

Your point? Blocking a ****ing strike is hardly more impressive than bitchslaping someone off of a bridge. Everyone and their dog can block strikes from Vader.

Vader basically bitchslapped Sing worse than Jinn did Maul.

And Sing was able to match him in speed and deal with his strength right up until climax of the duel

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vader never demonstrated the all-out offense against Kenobi than he has against other adversaries

Oh the excuses, the endless rationalisations, the poor arguments put forth too soothe the blemishes of a track record that doesn't match the fantasy. It's very simple, Vader is simply not overpowering high-tier duelists. Despite the rather sharp decline in skill - people argue Kenobi's out of his prime against Hett as a game changer - Obi Wan can swing, block and have his strikes parried without shudder or riposte, that is a fact. If anything, Vader has the advantage of knowing his senior's style, the same can't be said for the latter. If rusty old men can stalemate Vader, Qui Gon can do the same.



His Lockdown feats are fine, and really rather ridiculous considering the circumstances - lack of Force augmentation, nearly famished. It's possible that they even meet Vader's cybernetic wrists on their own.



Galen Marek isn't a get out of jail free card, not as someone who needed a form advantage to beat Maris Brood, gets slapped about by a random imperial knight and can't defeat an old and decrepid Shakk Ti. And I'm pretty sure vader was bested by Failen, no?

Vader would've been beaten by a nameless Tusken had it not been for someone helping him. That's all that should be said

Cancer all around.

Your argument is with George Lucas and the Original Trilogy, not me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cancer all around.

Yeah. Even i feel like going in for Chemotherapy

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Yeah. Even i feel like going in for Chemotherapy

Roll call:

Yeah...those comments were like >.>

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
What you claimed is that they are not even close, which is obviously not true, since he met his strength.Right, as in he met him head on, as opposed to deflecting or evading his attacks, hence the vibrations caused by the collision. Not as in he matched his physical abilities, which it is stated (and shown) that he did not do.

Glad we cleared that one up.My point being that if Maul had been Vader he probably wouldn't have so much as flinched. Which is supposed to be more impressive than back-handing an opening attack from the man who almost disarmed Marek (hit me up when Maul has anything strength wise that remotely compares), and getting away with it. Not convinced.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Oh the excuses, the endless rationalisations, the poor arguments put forth too soothe the blemishes of a track record that doesn't match the fantasy. It's very simple, Vader is simply not overpowering high-tier duelists. Despite the rather sharp decline in skill - people argue Kenobi's out of his prime against Hett as a game changer - Obi Wan can swing, block and have his strikes parried without shudder or riposte, that is a fact. If anything, Vader has the advantage of knowing his senior's style, the same can't be said for the latter. If rusty old men can stalemate Vader, Qui Gon can do the same.That's a whole lot of words for a non-answer, get back to me when you're able to address my points.
Maul is about on par with Vader's suit yeah.I would make an effort to explain why all of this is bullshit, but since you've backed it with no proof I needn't bother.Who'd tear Jinn a new one, quite. But then he had him dead to rights in TFU II, so it's all OK.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Roll call:

Says a lot about the next level cancer you've managed to top that with, yeah.

I take it you're done then, good to hear.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Vader would've been beaten by a nameless Tusken had it not been for someone helping him. That's all that should be said

From a Non-Canon storyline...so nice try and he wasn't a nameless/average Tusken either so..and for like the 4th time, Vader wasn't beaten by him.

Expose him.

Tbh it does some kinda weird after Grevious, that Vader would have limitations suit wise when Grevious didn't and it's noted that much of the same tech that made Grevious, had a hand in making Vader.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Tbh it does some kinda weird after Grevious, that Vader would have limitations suit wise when Grevious didn't and it's noted that much of the same tech that made Grevious, had a hand in making Vader.

Their anatomy and composition make Grevious and Vader completely incomparable in my eyes. Then it's also implied that much of Vader's spare parts were deliberately made uncomfortable and impractical for the purposes of keeping him down. That I think, would explain a great deal. Maul's legs didn't restrict his mobility, but it seems that Vader's metal limbs are much heavier, which is more of a hindrance than a advantage. Imagine trying to kickbox with 20 kilogram plates weighing you down on each limb. You are slower and less manoeuvrable, you might be able to generate greater Force with your strikes, but the effort needed to do so isn't worth it.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The Anatomy and composition make Grevious and Vader completely incomparable in my eyes. Then it's also implied that much of Vader's spare parts were deliberately made uncomfortable and impractical for the purposes of keeping him down. That I think, would explain a great deal. Maul's legs didn't restrict his mobility, but it seems that Vader's metal limbs are much heavier, which is more of a hindrance than a advantage. Imagine trying to kickbox with 20 kilogram plates weighing you down on each limb.

Mmm...true, but it's not as if Vader hasn't tweaked/modified his suit and eventually it's noted the weight didn't even really bother him. Think was in Death Star? Or Rise of Darth Vader?

But then I guess it's also Vader isn't a full cyborg like Grevious...or well moreso.

@Ziggy

1. You have nothing better to do, I know.

2. Right, so now your point appears to be that Vader couldn't beat Kenobi, despite that not being the case.

3. I'm sure they do, and strength wise I don't recall PROXY pressing Marek.

-------------

1. Your link turns up an error, and my memory is turning up nothing.

2. Marek going on the offense doesn't equate to using unfamiliar tactics to beat her lol.

3. "Everyone gets worse after their exile" - lmao, Kenobi actually got more powerful, Yoda was at the end of his life, and nothing regarding Maul had been confirmed. A poor basis for a standard all in all, try something more substantive.

On the other hand Ti had planetary nexus at her disposal and shows no signs of physical age at all.

4. I question whether you can friend, your knowledge of TFU appears to be pretty shit.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Mmm...true, but it's not as if Vader hasn't tweaked/modified his suit and eventually it's noted the weight didn't even really bother him. Think was in Death Star? Or Rise of Darth Vader?

If you were to run with a weighted chest plate and wristbands everyday for a half-a-year, through the laws of hypertrophy, your body would eventually adapt to the weight. You could keep those extra weights on during every waking hour and your body wouldn't notice the difference... until you removed them.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3882501/rock-lee-vs-gaara-o.gif

Yes, Vader has gotten use to his heavy legs and heavy arms, but that does not mean he regains his speed or manoeuvrability. Unfortunately for Vader, those appendages are permanent.

Here it is Beni.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oFK6fokFOWY/VIxB6WfX9YI/AAAAAAAGcSo/UJm_NaJ7CY8/s1600/p1_66%2Bcopy.jpg

Thanks, so a Shadow Guard, which I suppose must be... actually... formidable opponents!

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Thanks, so a Shadow Guard, which I suppose must be... actually... formidable opponents!

Well they seemed to be yeah, I made a whole RT for em incase ya forgot.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/star-wars-shadow-guard-respect-thread-1647591/

Plus they have superior reach compared to Galen with their Pike.

1. Sorry? Keep your fantasies to yourself lol.

2. Which I addressed yeah. But if "Kenobi is old and rusty" all you have in response then 1. He's the same age as Qui-Gon (actually, he's three years younger) and 2. "Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner" according to Fightsaber.

3. No, it's called sarcasm. And regarding the point PROXY's skill isn't equatable with his strength.

-----------

1. Covered. That only demonstrates their ability.

2. Too bad for her. But the only way Maris forced Marek to attack her with his preferred lightsaber form, was by trying to kill him, lmao.

3. Yet we know not her age nor the aging process of her species, only that by TFU there was not a wrinkle on her.

Regarding Kenobi, I was referring to Force power. Regarding Yoda, I was referring to his exile, where he went from going toe-to-toe with Sids to being unable to get out of bed. And regarding Maul, yes you are attempting to create an absolute standard based on assumptions.

As for your proof:i.e. Shaak Ti was bonded with flora and fauna of a planet saturated in the light side, where the dark side was being stifled. Make the inference. And the fact that Ti was responsible for the nexus doesn't make her exempt from benefitting from it.

4. Shit joke.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
DMB's argument rests on the assumption that Jinn would have done better than Kuro against Vader, particularly in that instance where she had him ensnared.Maul and Vader's strength are not equivalent in the slightest, so I don't know why you think this proves anything.

Maul was contending with Vader's strength fine in the comic. They're obviously comparable.



Why would he comment if basic physics were in play? It's clear that the two of them are both physical powerhouses. It's not as if Qui-Gon hasn't pitched Xanatos several meters and left him floored just by breaking a saberlock with him or something.



Is this just because Ahsoka did the same thing? Anyways, it was the first strike in the damned fight - any respectable Force user could do that with extensive effort.

Which it evidently was, since An'ya was tiring and getting desperate from blocking each strike of Vader's. At least Qui-Gon wasn't tiring from the first few blows against Maul.



Given the standard of opponents that Vader had faced then, I'm not surprised.



Jinn wins on flat-ground, as I said. In an environment where An'ya can bring her powers to bear, then she's at the advantage.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

2. Which I addressed yeah. But if "Kenobi is old and rusty" all you have in response then 1. He's the same age as Qui-Gon (actually, he's three years younger) and 2. "Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner" according to Lightsaber.

We're getting nowhere with these constant diversions and splitting of hair strands, so lets bring this argument full circle. The debate is simple. Can Qui Gon replicate Anya Kuro's duel against Vader prior to A New Hope, and can he do so to a much greater degree? According to all available evidence, the answer is yes. Can Qui Gon legitimately contend with Vader in a duel? Again, yes. Can Vader stomp duelists of Qui Gon's stature and praise without reason? No he can not, and has never shown the ability to do so.

Beniboyling's Escapades - The Versus Seires

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Jinn's strength doesn't compare to Vader's in any way, and in a showdown with Darth Vader he would have got tanked and spanked to an embarrassing degree.

So according to this damning statement, Vader can embarrass Jinn with superior strength that that the latter can not even hope to compete with in his wildest dreams. For me at least, there are more than a few reasons why I don't think Jinn will be getting embarrassed, and especially not against Vader before his prime in Return of the Jedi. The premise is simple, the notion needs little explanation. Vader has never out-duelled anyone on Qui Gon's level... I'm kidding of course, it's worse than that. Vader has never out-duelled an opponent on Anoon Bonder's level. This is a weapons master of whom regularly looks up to Qui Gon as a superior, and has lost in various sparring matches against him. So far, the threshold hit-list of people Vader can embarrass looks a little something like this:

. The Dark Woman
. Celeste Morne
. Roan Shrine
. ESB Luke
. Early Season 2 Kanan
. Season 2 Ezra

These are all people Vader has managed to beat by merit of his superior skill. Clear cut victories that even the most meticulously pedantic nitpicker can't deny. Yet they're all fodder. Not one of them has decent renown within the order as one of the best, and Luke, despite his natural aptitude, can not even be compared with Padawan Anakin. I very much doubt he's on level with TMP Kenobi either. These are all fighters that one can safely say, without controversy, will be getting embarrassed by Vader. But Vader, for all his post-modern terminator like strength , could not embarrass Ahsoka Tano, nor could he break Ben Kenobi, or Luke in Return of the Jedi.

Vader can not embarass Ben Kenobi

For Old Ben, we have a compounding set of factors that overall make him a far less-able duelist than his prime self, possibly by a massive degree. The first is his age, the second are the various battle wounds that have caught up with him in his yonder years, the third is his lack of practice and the fourth is Vader's familiarity with his style. Qui Gon jinn has only one of these hallmarked characteristics, but can still remain one of the best fighters in his day. On the other hand, Obi Wan has declined in both physicality and skill, yet Darth Vader was unable to break his guard and Kenobi's offense is still good enough to pose a genuine threat to Vader, the latter recognising that he could die at any point during their fight :

"The tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields." - Source: Fightsaber


"Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye." - Source: Death Star


"Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice" - Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force


"He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force." - Source: Death Star


"When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, both combatants know they are but shadows of their former selves." - Source: Fightsaber Article


"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas, Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette


And then there are the various sources reiterating what I have claimed about Kenobi's decrepit style of fighting. Qui Gon might be old, but his area of expertise doesn't go without routine practice. He still presumably spars with various masters and continues polishing his style to suit his aged physicality, while Kenobi is specifically stated to be rusty and unpracticed, the consequences of that are in both degraded skill and wavered strength, making it very simple for me to decide who's better of the two - and it's not Old Ben. So pray do tell, why is Vader not embarrassing this opponent? As a matter of fact, why is he not even winning the fight until Kenobi's an-herioc intent allows him an opening?

Vader can not embarrass Ashoka Tano

There is far less source material covering this matter, but the only relevant text implies that she's inferior to Maul, who is out of his prime. She was able to match Vader for a protracted fight, apparently in the center of some massive crackling aura of dark-side energy. That last part might have tipped the scales in Vader's favour. Regardless, is Ashoka vastly superior to Jinn? Not really. Is she superior to him at all? I don't see a single reason why she should be, and he still has her beat in the realm of accolades.

Qui Gon Jinn's Embarrassment at the Hands of Vader - The Reasoning

Originally posted by Beniboybling

And Maul is going to need more than his Lockdown feats to compare with Vader lol, not when the power of his blows was enough to almost disarm Galen Marek.

Firstly, Galen's strength feats are non-existent, so I don't know why this is even mentioned as a notable example to serve the church of Vader. In this regard, Maul literally butchers him with his bare hands and no Force connection. And yes, Maul's unamped showings in Lockdown match anything Vader is capable of. For example, he ripped the armored skull off of a Varactyl in a single jerk, creatures that have absolutely massive necks considering the amount of tendons and musculature in addition to their skeleton that he would have simply split in two. So why is Galen even being mentioned? I think I can take a shot at guessing why... He's evidently powerful, particularly when it comes to playing with big metal objects. But power doesn't always transcribe to inate talent with a lightsaber. Kyp Durron, K'kruhk, Rivi Anu, Nihillus ect are all good examples of this. Galen is perhaps moreso, as his track record of fights is basically appalling, and are against people who can be reasonably scaled. It's also worth noting that almost all of his hard fought battles were won through the Force, not duelling. I think the only exception to this is Maris Brood. Shaak ti is the only duelist here comparable to Jinn and she all but decimated failen, and the strength of her opener managed to make him recoil backwards. Comparatively, Jinn could send shudders through Maul's body with his strikes.

Ziggy, Roan and An'ya were amongst the greatest swordsmen in the Jedi Temple, and Luke was noted as even better than them skill-wise.

None of them are fodder.

Ziggy forgot Kento Marek.

It's true that Galen's doesn't have many strength feats but we can infer his level of strength as physical augmentation is based off power in the Force and his clone was capable of physically throwing TIE fighters.

Ziggy is destroying Beni and doing a great service to Jinn. This is brilliant

Where is it said that he physically threw them? IIRC, the quote you showed me only mentions him throwing them, and it's likely through the Force.

In a cutscene I've seen posted. He actually does physically throw them. I'll spend a free day searching through clips and I'll post it when I find it.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Ziggy is destroying Beni and doing a great service to Jinn. This is brilliant Despite being the foremost Maul basher, Ching still sucks Ziggy's dick cheap whore. Kys.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Despite being the foremost Maul basher, Ching still sucks Ziggy's dick cheap whore. Kys.

I still like you Beni you're just getting beat

I'm not looking for the approval of someone who thinks Bulq could beat Obi-Wan.

Withdraws approval.

If a random Tusken Raider could've beaten Vader, yeah, Bulq could beat Kenobi.
I still think Obi-Wan is superior though...

Or who uses Infinities sources seriously. Get out of here Ching.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Or who uses Infinities sources seriously. Get out of here Ching.
So hot when you're annoyed

Everyone here is getting gay these days?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Everyone here is getting gay these days?
I wish I was. Gay men get away with everything...

They mostly get away with aids.

I'd take aids over what I had

How did all that sp3rm from Ziggy not give you AIDS?

Either way

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul was contending with Vader's strength fine in the comic. They're obviously comparable.You mean in Resurrection? Chee has stated that we can't be sure what we were seeing, and consequently, can't be sure he shares Maul's capabilities.Because he's describing the feeling of the fight?

But yes, Qui-Gon is strong, that doesn't mean his strength rivalled Maul's. Instead the fact that Maul is able to overcome him so quickly demonstrates otherwise. Why would someone replicating the feat in a different continuity make me find it more impressive? Sure, I think I've already said several times how Marek was almost disarmed by Vader's opening salvo, which would be when he's at his strongest.Kuro begins to show strain towards the end of the fight, after which she's been contending with Vader for some time, I'm not seeing where she appears fatigued or desperate after the first few blows.That hardly means anything.Through his skill as a warrior he could yeah, but he's not overpowering Kuro through sheer might.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
We're getting nowhere with these constant diversions and splitting of hair strands, so lets bring this argument full circle. The debate is simple. Can Qui Gon replicate Anya Kuro's duel against Vader prior to A New Hope, and can he do so to a much greater degree? According to all available evidence, the answer is yes. Can Qui Gon legitimately contend with Vader in a duel? Again, yes. Can Vader stomp duelists of Qui Gon's stature and praise without reason? No he can not, and has never shown the ability to do so.In your position yeah, I'd suggest regrouping."The premise" is inherently flawed, since the number of people Vader has defeated doesn't place limitations of those he could defeat. The fact that Jinn (and the majority of the Jedi Order) had already been tanked and spanked by the time Vader came along is no basis for an argument. Only be grateful they were spared the embarrassment. I won't even begin with the inaccuracies regarding your "fodder" label, seeing as you bandy that term about so liberally, and contradictorily (like by throwing it at Jinn's executioner, Maul, lmao.)

Instead here's an even simpler premise for you: Qui-Gon was rendered a 30 second affair by the weakest of Palpatine's apprentices, logic dictates that the strongest would give him an even greater spanking.

As for Ahsoka, Luke, and Ben, they are all better than Jinn. Some of them substantially better, and Ben in particular, had key advantages that Jinn would lack, I'll get to Ahsoka and Ben in a moment but Luke can wait until you can substantiate your nonsense claim that he's sub-TPM Kenobi (despite being one of the greatest Jedi ever) with anything resembling evidence.First of all let's clarify one thing, because naturally you're incapable of reading the source material.

Against Vader Ben was losing, decisively I might add. And there is no doubt that had he not decided to yield, Vader would have defeated him all the same. The fact that he failed to break his guard and strike him down prior to that moment, is self-evident and needn't be pointed out. Now, let's go over the evidence.

Vader was easily handling Kenobi's attacks, and pushes him on the defensive:Comparatively Kenobi struggled with Vader's offensive, and was quickly driven back as his stamina flagged:Moving on, let's address your comparison between Kenobi and Jinn. First off "various battle wounds that have caught up with him"? Lol, OK, so we can pretty much write off your comparison as bullshit from the off. Let's try it again.

1. Kenobi has been slowed by age, correct. But so has Jinn.

2. Kenobi is out of practice, yes, but unpracticed? Hardly. Instead in The Life and Legend of Kenobi it's instead stated that Kenobi kept up his Jedi exercises:And as I've already raised, Fightsaber notes that he remains a "formidable" duelist. But still he's not as practiced as Jinn right? Sure, but here's the catch, Kenobi in his prime was a much better fighter than Jinn. Even by TPM, Kenobi's performance against Maul suggests he is approaching him in this regard. And by TCW, he's going toe-to-toe with an even more formidable version of the Sith Lord, where Jinn was dismantled. Heck, there are even some, (and won't name names) who think that by TCW, Kenobi was comfortably better than Maul. So in those persons' eyes, surely Kenobi totally eclipsed his master. And of course, during the ensuing Outer Rim Sieges, Kenobi only got better.

And on top of that, though by ANH his skills have declined, he's more powerful in the Force than ever:i.e. much more powerful than Jinn. And if that didn't largely compensate for his decline in skill, as far as a comparison with Qui-Gon is concerned, his considerable superiority to as a duelist to his master does. Frankly, I don't see a reason to believe Jinn is even Old Ben's equal as a combatant, let alone his superior.

3. Now for the final nail in the coffin. Namely, as I've raised, that Kenobi's mastery over Soresu would have proven a stylistically effective counter against Vader's aggressive assault, logic dictates this would be the case, but Fightsaber confirms ito defensively speaking, what does Jinn, an offensive specialist, have that compares? Well... oh dear.

I stand by my original premise:

First off we are discussing Legends Vader, so Canon isn't really relevant here. But regardless I'll humour you, considering we all know that this debate is just a front for you to lowball little Annie, and maybe wank Jinn on the side.

Speaking of Jinn, I'm afraid he's inferior to Ahsoka by quite a sad margin.

Let's evaluate the evidence, namely by using Maul as a measuring stick. Once again I await evidence that he is past his prime in Rebels, but even assuming for a moment that to be the case, he's clearly still in good fighting shape, with the potential added benefit of a DS nexus, more to the point, the Maul Jinn faced was before his prime, having grown more powerful since his revival, and steadily stronger over the course of TCW.

So where Jinn had a foot in the grave against an (injured) pre-prime Maul withholding the full capabilities of his lightsaber, Ahsoka stonewalled a potentially nexus-amped Maul using the full extent of his weapon for four times the duration. After the fact Jinn was left battered and heaving like an abused whore, while Ahsoka went off to fight Vader without breaking a sweat. Even someone as mentally handicapped as you can work out who is better, and it's not Jinn.

As far as that concerns Vader? Well though he did not embarrass Ahsoka in their subsequent fight, he nonetheless maintained a decisive edge over her, so considering how vastly inferior Jinn is to Tano in comparison, I rather think he'd screw him over pretty badly, wouldn't you?

Again, I stand by my original premise:And so far you've failed pretty tragically to demonstrate otherwise.I would like to think that yes, Marek's augmentative ability is largely relative to his overall strength as a Force user. In which case well exceeding that of Maul, and therefore begs proof of his ability to overpower such a person.

In relation to which you made a rather poor attempt to prove Marek an exception to his logic (despite being described as a near perfect duelist.) Don't assume your equally poor attempt to circumvent my counter-response has gone unnoticed. It's still ready and waiting for you on the other page. But naturally I'm sure your just gathering your sources.

While your doing that though let's revisit the topic of Shaak Ti, who 1. was considered one of the greatest swordmasters in the order, and in that respect is certainly in Jinn's league 2. backed by the power of a planetary nexus, and without any indication of decline in physicality or skill (instead in communion with a planet so saturated in the Force, probably got stronger) undoubtedly outstrips his capabilities.

You argue that Ti "decimated" Marek regardless, and yet the last time I checked, it was the latter who came out of it alive. Yeah, I'm afraid that's bullshit. Marek did indeed recoil at the force of her opening salvo, but much like Ahsoka couldn't maintain her initial advantage against Vader in their duel, neither did Ti possess the stamina to do so here, instead for the vast majority of the bout they appear fight evenly, despite Ti possessing and abusing the terrain advantage, and having vast planetary reserves at her disposal. On the other hand even with a last-ditch suicidal attempt to overpower him, she failed to fully penetrate his defences.

Moreover after the fact Marek strength increased dramatically:
Or in other words, by the point of his mission to Felucia, Marek is already powerful enough to decisively beat Jinn, after growing far more powerful he would embarrass him, as would Vader by association. Originally posted by Beniboybling
another misreading, the source material states that "Our blows send shudders through my body", something that proves nothing more than the fact that basic physics are in play, not that they are close in physical ability, they are not.

You completely dodged the Ben Kenobi comparison, and until you address that, you won't be getting any responses - i.e., me kicking your ass again. Till then I have little reason to assume that Failen is above ATOC Obi Wan as a duelist.

Edit : just saw the previous page. expect a response.

Wait. Who suggested Jinn > Felucia Galen?

Who do you think?

I mean. No. Just no.

Pray for his death, Syn, its all we can do.

I pray for everyone's death on KMC.

Mmm, probably for the best.

Making this quick.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Against Vader Ben was losing, decisively I might add.

Like many of the renowned events in Star Wars, Ben Kenobi vs Vader is covered by a number of sources that interpret, conjecture upon and reiterate the action viewed on-screen. There are also a few sources that comment on the fight, the Fightsaber article being one of them. Other than that, we have the New Hope Novel and the Death Star giving us an internal perspective of just what exactly is happening. Unsurprisingly, none of the literature describing the fight lines up with Beni's opinion. The Death Star Novel tells us the story from the thoughts of Vader, in which he believes to have the advantage, until Kenobi starts attacking back himself:

"He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them of would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye."

- The Death Star

"During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields."

- Source: Insider 62: Fightsaber

So no, winning decisively is not how this fight can be described when Vader admits that the slightest moment of wavered concentration will end up with his head on a platter. Then we have the objective source claiming that Vader couldn't break his guard to put Beni's personal interpretation to a long awaited sleep laden with barbiturates. For some, this is a pill too hard to swallow. They simply can not admit, or do not understand why Vader can't defeat a an out-of-practice Old man, because it comes with several ground realities that are too close to home and too close to the bone. Vader is not in his prime, the cybernetic replacements prevent the Force from flowing through his body correctly, he no longer has the potential of the chosen one, and finally, he's slow and rigid, two traits that severely hamper his ability to wield a weightless glow stick against other people with weightless glowsticks. With all that considered, it isn't too hard to believe why Ben Kenobi can compete with Vader. He was intended to be a shadow of his former self, and that's exactly what he is.



"Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two light-sabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed.

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat."

- The Life and Legend of Obi Wan

The Life and Legend of Obi Wan is written two years after the events of Revenge of the Sith, it's specifically regarding Kenobi's engagement with Hett on Tatooine and therefor, has nor bearing on our little debate. On the contrary the sources mentioning Kenobi in A New Hope all note how out of practice he is, leading me to believe his skills are legitimately worse than Qui Gon Jinn's. He may still be a formidable Soresu practitioner, but please remember that this only produces a relative conviction and more importantly, folks like Coleman Trebor were credited with the same accolade.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


Qui-Gon was rendered a 30 second affair by the weakest of Palpatine's apprentices, logic dictates that the strongest would give him an even greater spanking.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2z7pw14.png

Vader's performance against the resurrected Darth Maul - aka the weakest of Palpatine's apprentices demonstrates that Jinn would do pretty well against former, all considering. Nova gave me the quote confirming this is part of C-canon, so the validity of the source is no longer in question, Maul not wanting to fight Vader in Rebels can be explained by a decline in skill and given that the Disney show is still featured before A New Hope, the idea of a resurrection is still plausible. The comic features Vader getting slapped pretty hard, perhaps worse than Jinn did. So using Maul as a measuring stick Jinn might even win this battle.



Galen Marek does suck at duelling. For starters the almost part of perfecting - i.e mastering lightsaber combat, makes this a shit accolade. It simply means his level of skill is below Adi Gaila types. Now for his track record of fights, let's have a look at who he's duelled and what league they should be playing in.

Rham Kota - Prominent feats :

- Mastered Juyo? Possibly putting him on Vrook Lamar's level

Kazdan Paratus - Prominent feats :

....

Shaak ti - Prominent feats :

- Fought Grevious twice, lost instantly both times

- May or may not be amping her own power with her presence

- Out-duelling Galen Marek

Random Shadow Guard - prominent feats :

- Out-dueling Galen Marek

Maris Brood - prominent feats :

...

So as we can see, fodder bemoans fodder... and on the original point, Galen's strength feats are all but non-existent. So where does he rest among the pantheon of duellists who haven't quite perfected lightsaber combat?

http://www.tradingcarddb.com/Images/Cards/Non-Sport/73158/73158-6Bk.jpg

Galen is a solid ATOC Obi Wan leveler.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust


Random Shadow Guard - prominent feats :

- Out-dueling Galen Marek



Except the Shadow Guard didn't out-duel him. At best they fought back and forth with one another, but out-dueling no.

God I love it when people bring up that 'resurrection' fight. Vader got dominated but somehow they turn against Maul?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Galen Marek does suck at duelling. For starters the almost part of perfecting - i.e mastering lightsaber combat, makes this a shit accolade. It simply means his level of skill is below Adi Gaila types. Now for his track record of fights, let's have a look at who he's duelled and what league they should be playing in.

Rham Kota - Prominent feats :

- Mastered Juyo? Possibly putting him on Vrook Lamar's level

Kazdan Paratus - Prominent feats :

....

Shaak ti - Prominent feats :

- Fought Grevious twice, lost instantly both times

- May or may not be amping her own power with her presence

- Out-duelling Galen Marek

Random Shadow Guard - prominent feats :

- Out-dueling Galen Marek

Maris Brood - prominent feats :

...

So as we can see, fodder bemoans fodder... and on the original point, Galen's strength feats are all but non-existent. So where does he rest among the pantheon of duellists who haven't quite perfected lightsaber combat?

http://www.tradingcarddb.com/Images/Cards/Non-Sport/73158/73158-6Bk.jpg

Galen is a solid ATOC Obi Wan leveler.

You just f*cked up.

Sorry Syndicate, what exactly places Galen on level with the creme de la creme of lightsaber duelists, such as Dooku, ROTS Kenobi, Anakin, Mace etc etc?

The answer is nothing by the way.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Sorry Syndicate, what exactly places Galen on level with the creme de la creme of lightsaber duelists, such as Dooku, ROTS Kenobi, Anakin, Mace etc etc?

His defeat of Vader of course who himself has stalemated 4 Jedi simultaneously, beaten Celeste Morne and survived against dozens of Jedi far before his prime. That's solely based off feats. Vader himself is logically a far more skilled duelist then he was at Anakin and he's confirmed to have grown more powerful meaning he is Anakin's superior in all areas bar agility.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The answer is nothing by the way.

You've fallen so low Ziggy. It's never too late to rise though as long as someone's willing to offer a helping hand.

https://ueslifecoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Helping-hand-6-14.jpg

Take it Ziggy. You know you want to.

So how do you explain Vader's stalemate of Ol Ben Kenobi and his spanking at the hands of Darth Maul in resurrection?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So how do you explain Vader's stalemate of Ol Ben Kenobi and his spanking at the hands of Darth Maul in resurrection?

The Resurrection comic was reconnected by TCW. If it hadn't been then we wouldn't have anything to scale Vader to as TPM Maul before TCW was simply an unknown combatant somewhere between Qui Gon Jinn and Sidious.

Taking TCW into account and applying it to the comic the doppleganger presented therein is a creation of Dark Acolytes who's capabilities are unknown. This was also before his prime as you're likely well aware.

Ben's status as a combatant is based solely on his performance against Vader meaning Vader can neither suffer nor be raised due to his fight against Kenobi. Kenobi decreased in skill of course but also increased in power meaning his performance is based on the extent of his power growth.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Jinn in a good fight.

Ngl I lol'ed while reading that, you've really let yourself go Ziggy.

TPM Maul > ANH Vader, fax r fax

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ngl I lol'ed while reading that, you've really let yourself go Ziggy.

http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ksy7o2HhSD1qzp5ffo1_500.jpg

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Dark Acolytes who's capabilities are unknown. This was also before his prime as you're likely well aware.


They actually aren't, here's something that details the Prophets of the Dark Side...those that are in the Resurrection comic.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/wolfrazer/blog/star-wars-prophets-of-the-dark-side-respect-thread/128102/

They are quite powerful(relatively) and the moon they were on, was noted as focal point of the dark side.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/fw2wKDfPg6rfKnf3xuiXoE66udflOR1D6F0yxCIi10oE--J5bF326nl6skVkw9WdZfKKGUZpdBfg=s0

Stories sure, but it makes sense since the Stormtroopers were feeling nauseous since they had set foot and it was only getting worse.

But even taking that away, the Prophets were still powerful.

Anyway Syn, Ben Kenobi isn't nearly as formidable as his prime self in ROTS, lightsaber skill and augmentation included. That's something you will simply have to accept. And TCW doesn't retcon the Maul in resurrection unless Maul is still alive past A new hope.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
They actually aren't, here's something that details the Prophets of the Dark Side...those that are in the Resurrection comic.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/wolfrazer/blog/star-wars-prophets-of-the-dark-side-respect-thread/128102/

They are quite powerful(relatively) and the moon they were on, was noted as focal point of the dark side.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/fw2wKDfPg6rfKnf3xuiXoE66udflOR1D6F0yxCIi10oE--J5bF326nl6skVkw9WdZfKKGUZpdBfg=s0

Stories sure, but it makes sense since the Stormtroopers were feeling nauseous since they had set foot and it was only getting worse.

But even taking that away, the Prophets were still powerful.

I'm talking about the powers of the individual members and that only if we're assuming the doppleganger was something created by them.

Granted yes, they should be decently powerful.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Anyway Syn, Ben Kenobi isn't nearly as formidable as his prime self in ROTS, lightsaber skill and augmentation included. That's something you will simply have to accept. And TCW doesn't retcon the Maul in resurrection unless Maul is still alive past A new hope.

What evidence do you have for his power or augmentation declining?

It does because Maul seeks revenge for the death of his brother and mother and his own betrayal by Sidious in Rebels. He wouldn't fight Vader to have the chance at becoming Sidious's apprentice unless he was forced to by the Dark Acolytes.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
TPM Maul > ANH Vader, fax r fax

When the **** did you become a kinko's?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
When the **** did you become a kinko's?

Hey Xtasy. Guess wat.

The story based around Maul's mindset is both irrelevant and can be explained away by simple factors that allow us to suspend disbelief. The point of the comic was to present how TPM Maul would fair against Vader in Legends, and that's exactly what it does. These passive nuances do not retcon the comic and it still happened as part of C-Canon. As for Kenobi, numerous sources declaring him shadow of former self, that he's slower, out of practice, and not as strong as he use to be, indicate that his augmentation isn't what it use to be. Logically a 2 decade Exile sans practice would mean his skill degrades massively. Where is the evidence he's more powerful?

Sorry I'm not into suspending disbelief to further your agenda. I'll go with what's logical when it's not outright elaborated on.

Going to class but I'm sure Beni can handle you're huckstering until I return.

As for the quotes regarding Kenobi I belief Wolf has several. I'll PM him to post them here.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
TPM Maul > ANH Vader, fax r fax I'd stick to that level of articulation in the future, anything more and it becomes seriously painful. Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Like many of the renowned events in Star Wars, Ben Kenobi vs Vader is covered by a number of sources that interpret, conjecture upon and reiterate the action viewed on-screen. There are also a few sources that comment on the fight, the Fightsaber article being one of them. Other than that, we have the New Hope Novel and the Death Star giving us an internal perspective of just what exactly is happening. Unsurprisingly, none of the literature describing the fight lines up with Beni's opinion. The Death Star Novel tells us the story from the thoughts of Vader, in which he believes to have the advantage, until Kenobi starts attacking back himself:

"He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them of would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye."

- The Death Star

"During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields."

- Source: Insider 62: Fightsaber

So no, winning decisively is not how this fight can be described when Vader admits that the slightest moment of wavered concentration will end up with his head on a platter. Then we have the objective source claiming that Vader couldn't break his guard to put Beni's personal interpretation to a long awaited sleep laden with barbiturates. For some, this is a pill too hard to swallow. They simply can not admit, or do not understand why Vader can't defeat a an out-of-practice Old man, because it comes with several ground realities that are too close to home and too close to the bone. Vader is not in his prime, the cybernetic replacements prevent the Force from flowing through his body correctly, he no longer has the potential of the chosen one, and finally, he's slow and rigid, two traits that severely hamper his ability to wield a weightless glow stick against other people with weightless glowsticks. With all that considered, it isn't too hard to believe why Ben Kenobi can compete with Vader. He was intended to be a shadow of his former self, and that's exactly what he is.So, you've two pieces of evidence to counter my point here, one of which I've addressed already, so let's take a look at them.I'm afraid this does not contradict the notion that Vader was winning decisively at all, only demonstrates that Kenobi was a lethal threat. And when even the most adept of Force sensitives can move "faster than thought" (see Ezra Bridger), obviously a split second lapse in anyone's concentration could be presented as potentially fatal.

Nonetheless the fact remains that Vader was never strained by his opponent's offense, whereas Kenobi was retreating and tiring almost throughout.As I say, already addressed, the source is stating the obvious, that Vader failed to penetrate Obi-Wan defences (and in doing so, kill him) before Kenobi allows him to. But it doesn't preclude Vader breaking his defences if the fight had gone on. Instead, referring back to by original points, Kenobi's flagging stamina and diminishing ground made it rather inevitable.The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan depicts what Ben was doing on Tatooine, and in this case if he's still keeping up his Jedi exercises two years into Imperial rule, I see no reason why he would abruptly stop when the threat of the Empire only continued to grow. Kenobi was tasked with the protection of Luke, which is not a task he could retire from when he hit 50, this source simply demonstrating he took that responsibility seriously.

As for Fightsaber's statement that "Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner", yes it's relative, to Kenobi's former prowess as a warrior, in which case he still appears to retains a good deal of his previous deadly skill.

Finally I can only assume the complete lack of an attempt to address RotS Kenobi's gross superiority to Jinn as to be a concession. Graciously accepted."Resurrected" implies it was actually Darth Maul, instead according to Leland Chee there is no certainty at all on what it iso no, I'm afraid the validity of the source, as far as it relates to the real Darth Maul's skill with a warrior, absolutely remains in question, and ultimately it appears only to be "a pretty cool battle." Shame.Adi Gallia? As in one of the best Jedi in the Order? That's high praise coming from you Ziggy. On the other hand yes, being a "near perfect" duelist suggests his combatively abilities are... near perfect, as opposed to severely lacking as you are attempting to make out.

As for the rest? Do you really think this shit posting deserves a response? (Though Syn seems to have throughly destroyed it anyway, much appreciated) Honestly if that's the best you can do I suggest relocating to a place more your level. On the other hand in the absence of an actual rebuttal to my case regarding Shaak Ti, as well as my previous points still unaddressed on the Marek front, I can only assume a concession, again graciously accepted.

And for those not paying attentiono no, I'm afraid the validity of the source, as far as it relates to the real Darth Maul's skill with a warrior, absolutely remains in question, and ultimately it appears only to be "a pretty cool battle." Shame.http://i.imgur.com/c5JtXuE.jpg

Zen wolf already presented the quote claiming it's a resurrection of Darth Maul, so that point is moot.

Wolf has posted nothing that overrides Leland Chee's ruling.

And there goes your argument you had to reiterate, twice. Chee isn't ruling out anything, lol, he simply wasn't aware - or couldn't recall the source and is giving his opinion on the matter.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Hey Xtasy. Guess wat.

What?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And there goes your argument you had to reiterate, twice. Chee isn't ruling anything, lol, he simply wasn't aware - or couldn't recall the source. Lol I appreciate the damage control, but coming from someone whose stated innumerable times that the Insider isn't canon, this is pretty pathetic. And the idea that the Keeper of the Holocron "forgot" or was "simply" unaware, in relation to canon, is just plain laughable.

Sorry, but the supervisor of (Legends) continuity > whoever wrote that article. Especially when Chee's comment is the most recent.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol I appreciate the damage control, but coming from someone whose stated innumerable times that the Insider isn't canon, this is pretty pathetic.

Views change, I also thought Vader was a competent fighter too.



Leland didn't specifically say it wasn't canon, all he did was ask questions about it. The Insider article validates it as a legitimate source, and thus ripping your argument of ANh Vader > Maul > Qui Gon.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Views change, I also thought Vader was a competent fighter too.

Leland didn't specifically say it wasn't canon, all he did was ask questions about it. The Insider article validates it as a legitimate source, and thus ripping your argument of ANh Vader > Maul > Qui Gon. It's canonicity isn't in question, the nature of the entity Maul fought is. In regards to which you're hopelessly floundering.

Occams Razor dictates he has the same skill level of Maul in TPM.

It indicates nothing of the sort, if it were an illusion for example there would be no basis for parity between Maul and it at all, bar a physical resemblance. The same if it were merely a vision. And as long as those remain possibilities you have nothing to stand on, so take your L already this is becoming embarrassing.

Chee asks a legitimate question in regards to the Nature of the resurrected Maul, he does not ask a rhetorical one. the Insider comment clarifiers that it is indeed a resurrection, which according to Occam Razor, would mean he has the skills and abilities of Darth Maul in TPM., thus destroying your comparison between Jinn and Vader.

All I have to say is that canon (legends) disagrees with you. I'm sorry if that's too hard for you to accept.

Lol, Leland Chee was not answering a question with a question. Instead he is quite clear that on the topic of Resurrection, "nothing's been determined as to what we are actually seeing", and flat out states its not the real Maul, overriding the opinion of Abel G. Pena and his buddy Enrique.

I'd sorry that the Keeper of the Holocron has taken out the legs of your trump card.

Beni, watching you work is a pleasure. Magnifique! Encore!

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol, Leland Chee was not answering a question with a question. Instead he is quite clear that on the topic of Resurrection, "nothing's been determined as to what we are actually seeing", and flat out states its not the real Maul, overriding the opinion of Abel G. Pena and his buddy Enrique.

Not at all, Chee was simply enquiring further, and insider clarifies the ordeal, it's quite simple as that. Not to mention the entire premise of the comic was to see how a fight between tmp Maul and Vader would go down. Simply put Maul basically shits on Vader until the latter stabs himself, I'm sorry Beni, but at this point your just denying canon.

It's very simple, this aborts your entire ranking of Vader and clarifies what the comic was referring to.

On a cursed moon, Maul is miraculously resurrected through the power of the dark side and challenges Vader to the Sith legacy.

- Taken from Insider 83

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Not at all, Chee was simply enquiring further, and insider clarifies the ordeal, it's quite simple as that. Not to mention the entire premise of the comic was to see how a fight between tmp Maul and Vader would go down. Simply put Maul basically shits on Vader until the latter stabs himself, I'm sorry Beni, but at this point your just denying canon. Whereas you are just desperately circumventing the facts that 1. Chee does not inquire, he answers inquiries, because he is the Keeper of the Holocron, not some fan 2. He makes two definitive statements in his response, that it is not Maul, and that the reality of the whom it has not determined.

The premise of the comic simply being to depict "a cool battle." The results of which evidently they don't which to be beholden too considering how its validity has been compromised in this manner.

Naturally we can keep up this back and forth indefinitely, but we all know your just trying to save face, in light of being hopelessly incorrect.Originally posted by Ziggystardust
It's very simple, this aborts your entire ranking of Vader and clarifies what the comic was referring to.

On a cursed moon, Maul is miraculously resurrected through the power of the dark side and challenges Vader to the Sith legacy.

- Taken from Insider 83 Honestly it's not even concrete enough to support your assertion. That Maul was resurrected in the flesh is not what's stated here, only that he was resurrected in some form. Isn't semantics fun?