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Anakin on the Invisible Hand, at the peak before Zonakin.

He should be able to remove Vaylin relative easily, so yeah, Anakin wins.

Arcann and Vaylin

Anakin, lol.

Hmm the duo

Originally posted by Nephthys
Arcann and Vaylin

Originally posted by Nephthys
Arcann and Vaylin

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

Go GH.

He can't stand up to both their force powers at once. They're just too powerful.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Arcann and Vaylin

The duo should win.

What are Vaylin's saber feats, again?

She dueled Senya for like half an hour.

She lost, though. What's Senya got?

Originally posted by ares834
The duo should win.

Better then being stalemated by Hondo.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She lost, though. What's Senya got? Getting one-shotted by Heskel.

Lmao.

Arcann solos, lol

Tbh.

Yeah, Anakin wins. None of them seem to compare as warriors and as powerful as they are, they're not more powerful than Anakin.

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

You rank Anakin under Obi-Wan, as I've been told. Now that's hilarious.

But since you love to play the bias card against me so much, it's obvious that you hate Anakin and will do anything to undermine him. So I play the bias card, and invalidate everything you say about Anakin in all threads

I actually like Anakin quite a bit as he's one of my favorite SW characters. Realistically I rank him about Malgus/Dooku/Bane level. I just find this Anakin >= Sidious/Yoda crap absolutely retarded and seek to give a slap on the wrist to Anakin wankers.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I actually like Anakin quite a bit as he's one of my favorite SW characters. Realistically I rank him about Malgus/Dooku/Bane level. I just find this Anakin >= Sidious/Yoda crap absolutely retarded and seek to give a slap on the wrist to Anakin wankers.

Nobody here is arguing that he would beat Sidious/Yoda in a fight or that he compares with them in overall mastery, but there are several quotes which flatly state that he's on that level in terms of power, and it simply isn't reasonable to just pretend that they don't exist.

It is when they're directly contradicted by showings.

Like...?

Like the fact that he had trouble even perceiving Sidious and that he's blatantly not the most powerful of the Jedi since in mid-combat he was only capable of landing a force push on Dooku compared to Sidious outright choking the Count mid TCW and Yoda nearly matching RotS Sidious in a Force lock. Or that he's blatantly not the fastest of the Jedi since before Anakin switched to Djem So Dooku was handling both him and Obi Wan just fine while Yoda has beaten an amped Dooku as quickly as he did to a Dooku he was trying to capture in AotC and actually disarmed a being Anakin had trouble perceiving. Or that the duelist tier ranking is inherently flawed having put Mace on the same level as Sidious despite Sidious being able to blitz both Tiin and Kolar without Mace being able to move at all to help them.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Like the fact that he had trouble even perceiving Sidious

I'm pretty sure he had trouble seeing Mace and Sidious, which hardly matters since Jedi don't really fight with their eyes.



Who said Anakin was Sidious-tier in TK?



You mean while they were using ploy forms that they never practice or fight with to get Dooku to underestimate them, and while Anakin was holding back?

When Anakin got somewhat serious, Dooku was struggling to hold onto his lightsaber. The script says that Obi Wan and Dooku tire while Anakin only grows stronger - of course, we know that he doesn't truly let go until Dooku's dun moch backfires.



Well, the duelist tier ranking probably considers the Mace Windu that we see defeating Sidious, .i.e. the amped one.

In either case, none of these have anything to do with the question of whether Anakin is as powerful as Yoda.

Dooku had trouble perceiving Anakin's blade, but that doesn't mean he couldn't contend. Grievous attacked faster than Obi-Wan could think, but Obi-Wan still blocked his strikes. You perceive and respond through the Force.

Also, people need to stop yammering about how much worse Anakin would do if he switched from Djem So to Shien or Ataru. It's obvious that Djem So is his primary form. That's like saying Obi-Wan would do far worse if he used Juyo or Yoda would do far worse in Makashi. Not a valid argument.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm pretty sure he had trouble seeing Mace and Sidious, which hardly matters since Jedi don't really fight with their eyes.



Who said Anakin was Sidious-tier in TK?



You mean while they were using ploy forms that they never practice or fight with to get Dooku to underestimate them, and while Anakin was holding back?

When Anakin got somewhat serious, Dooku was struggling to hold onto his lightsaber. The script says that Obi Wan and Dooku tire while Anakin only grows stronger - of course, we know that he doesn't truly let go until Dooku's dun moch backfires.



Well, the duelist tier ranking probably considers the Mace Windu that we see defeating Sidious, .i.e. the amped one.

In either case, none of these have anything to do with the question of whether Anakin is as powerful as Yoda.

Force users can generally physically see their opponents though. And Anakin has visually seen sublight fighters along with Obi Wan. It doesn't mean they can move at those speeds themselves.

You apparently?!

Who said they were holding back aside from not using their main form? The novel notes that Anakin himself was growing frustrated at his and Obi Wan's lack of progress against him.

Proof?

What do you mean by power? Usable power or potential? I know they're one and the same to YOU but what stance are you adopting for the sake of the argument.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku had trouble perceiving Anakin's blade, but that doesn't mean he couldn't contend. Grievous attacked faster than Obi-Wan could think, but Obi-Wan still blocked his strikes. You perceive and respond through the Force.

Not the point they were fading in and out of existence.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, people need to stop yammering about how much worse Anakin would do if he switched from Djem So to Shien or Ataru. It's obvious that Djem So is his primary form. That's like saying Obi-Wan would do far worse if he used Juyo or Yoda would do far worse in Makashi. Not a valid argument.

It's valid when the main argument is Anakin's strength or speed being why he defeated Dooku when we know using another form he's less skilled in makes both him and Kenobi together a non threat in Dooku's eyes.

Dooku and Anakin's blades moved faster than the eye could see, so same thing, and yet Anakin still pummeled him.

Anyway, Skywalker wins.

Look Nova. I'm not doing this with you hear. We're already having one Anakin debate on Comic Vine. Please stay out of my debate with Ell.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku and Anakin's blades moved faster than the eye could see, so same thing, and yet Anakin still pummeled him.

Faster then Dooku or Anakin's eye could see ( Force user's with superhuman perception ) or a third person statement "faster then the eye can see."

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It's valid when the main argument is Anakin's strength or speed being why he defeated Sidious when we know using another form he's less skilled in makes both him and Kenobi together a non threat in Dooku's eyes.

That's like discounting the notion that Michael Phelps is a fast swimmer by pointing out that he would get creamed if he tried to use butterfly in a freestyle race.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not the point they were fading in and out of existence.

It was in Anakin vs Dooku. Dooku was literally seeing the room through an electric haze because of how fast Anakin's lightsaber was moving.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Faster then Dooku or Anakin's eye could see ( Force user's with superhuman perception ) or a third person statement "faster then the eye can see."

The Force does boost perceptions, but its primary utility comes from adding in an extra one. Whether Anakin's Force augmentation boosts the processing power of his eyes is kind of irrelevant.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Look Nova. I'm not doing this with you hear. We're already having one Anakin debate on Comic Vine. Please stay out of my debate with Ell.

Didn't you threaten to get lots of people to try and overwhelm me?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's like discounting the notion that Michael Phelps is a fast swimmer by pointing out that he would get creamed if he tried to use butterfly in a freestyle race.

No it's not. The analogy is not the same at all. If Anakin was truly as fast as Yoda then the form he used against Dooku shouldn't matter. He should cream him regardless. And it's not like he's even unskilled in Shien since that's essentially the other side of Form V which Anakin's a master in.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Didn't you threaten to get lots of people to try and overwhelm me?

No. I said I'd hope that would happen because you're an inhuman machine capable of pumping out posts without stop. I am not as good at constant posting as you are and will not entertain a three way debate when I'm already doing 3 other debates with you one of which addresses this very subject.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No it's not. The analogy is not the same at all. If Anakin was truly as fast as Yoda then the form he used against Dooku shouldn't matter. He should cream him regardless. And it's not like he's even unskilled in Shien since that's essentially the other side of Form V which Anakin's a master in.

You're assuming that the speed disparity between Yoda and Dooku is so large that technical skill is irrelevant. That evidently isn't the case, since we've seen Yoda and Dooku fight and it's not like Dooku can't even react to him or anything. Dooku can be slower than Anakin but compensate for it if he moves his blade more efficiently, which he would be if Anakin were using a ploy form and deliberately holding back.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
then the form he used against Dooku shouldn't matter.

It didn't. mmm

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The Force does boost perceptions, but its primary utility comes from adding in an extra one. Whether Anakin's Force augmentation boosts the processing power of his eyes is kind of irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant depending on what the quote Ant mentioned is referencing.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It didn't. mmm

It did because Anakin was growing frustrated at his and Obi Wan's lack of progress against Dooku using those forms.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're assuming that the speed disparity between Yoda and Dooku is so large that technical skill is irrelevant. That evidently isn't the case, since we've seen Yoda and Dooku fight and it's not like Dooku can't even react to him or anything. Dooku can be slower than Anakin but compensate for it if he moves his blade more efficiently, which he would be if Anakin were using a ploy form and deliberately holding back.

No I'm not otherwise Yoda could have just disarmed Dooku and captured him. He is faster then Dooku enough that he could kill him relatively quickly when Dooku's amped. He could kill Dooku even more quickly when the Count is unamped. The difference being Yoda attempted to capture Dooku on Geonosis.

Nothing notes he's hold back other then to use Shien rather then Djem So.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No I'm not otherwise Yoda could have just disarmed Dooku and captured him. He is faster then Dooku enough that he could kill him relatively quickly when Dooku's amped. He could kill Dooku even more quickly when the Count is unamped. The difference being Yoda attempted to capture Dooku on Geonosis.


Yoda was still using his preferred form. It's not like if he just waved his saber around randomly that he would be so fast that Dooku wouldn't be able to defend himself; he can't win because Yoda is fast and knows how to use a lightsaber. Dooku doesn't have to move his blade as far as his attacker, so he doesn't have to be as quick.



Pretty sure the entire theme of that fight is that Anakin is holding back...

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No. I said I'd hope that would happen because you're an inhuman machine capable of pumping out posts without stop. I am not as good at constant posting as you are and will not entertain a three way debate when I'm already doing 3 other debates with you one of which addresses this very subject.

Well, then good luck, since one of the other people you're squaring off against is Ellimist, who has even more unrelenting energy than me.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yoda was still using his preferred form. It's not like if he just waved his saber around randomly that he would be so fast that Dooku wouldn't be able to defend himself; he can't win because Yoda is fast and knows how to use a lightsaber. Dooku doesn't have to move his blade as far as his attacker, so he doesn't have to be as quick.



Pretty sure the entire theme of that fight is that Anakin is holding back...

And that's fine. But if Yoda used a form other then Ataru he's not going to just be swinging his blade around. Anakin is a master of Form V and is apparently skilled enough in Ataru to make modifications to it that would be taught to those using it in combat. I'm sure he's a capable user of others forms to the point he wouldn't just be "waving his lightsaber around" by employing one of them over his main one.

Well. At the end he is having his rage stoked by Sidious and he is holding back in that he's not releasing his rage but I'm referring specifically to an unhindered mental state Anakin employing Shien.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, then good luck, since one of the other people you're squaring off against is Ellimist, who has even more unrelenting energy than me.

I know that very well since the Caedus vs Galen thread we did months ago.

Thank you Nova.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And that's fine. But if Yoda used a form other then Ataru he's not going to just be swinging his blade around. Anakin is a master of Form V and is apparently skilled enough in Ataru to make modifications to it that would be taught to those using it in combat. I'm sure he's a capable user of others forms to the point he wouldn't just be "waving his lightsaber around" by employing one of them over his main one.

Yoda's technical knowledge outstrips Anakin's, so I'd say Yoda using djem so would fare better against Dooku than Anakin would using, say, makashi. But that doesn't really contradict the idea that Anakin is as powerful.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yoda's technical knowledge outstrips Anakin's, so I'd say Yoda using djem so would fare better against Dooku than Anakin would using, say, makashi. But that doesn't really contradict the idea that Anakin is as powerful.

Well that's not just because of Yoda's greater knowledge but because of Djem So's inherent advantage over Makashi which is clearly demonstrated when Anakin switches the forms he's using. That's my point. It's not so much Anakin's being held back by using another form but the inherent advantage of Djem So over Makashi along with his own skill in it just pushes him past Dooku in regards to lightsaber combat.

Also Yoda using a form NOT inherently advantaged against Makashi managed to drive an amped Dooku back just as quickly.

Anakin stalemated Dooku with Shien in Dark Disciple, and directly challenged him in Attack of the Clones, even before a massive power increase.

It's clear he was toying with Dooku.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Well that's not just because of Yoda's greater knowledge but because of Djem So's inherent advantage over Makashi which is clearly demonstrated when Anakin switches the forms he's using. That's my point. It's not so much Anakin's being held back by using another form but the inherent advantage of Djem So over Makashi along with his own skill in it just pushes him past Dooku in regards to lightsaber combat.

Also Yoda using a form NOT inherently advantaged against Makashi managed to drive an amped Dooku back just as quickly.

Why do you assume that it's just a matter of form match-ups, and not because Anakin was just more familiar with djem so? Or that Anakin was growing stronger through the fight (per the script)?

And if you look carefully at the novelization's detail of the fight, you'll see lots of things Anakin pulled off that have little to do with his form. When Dooku was on the verge of blacking out from Anakin's strike's, it's not like djem so magically makes you 100x stronger. When Dooku's knowledge of the Force had turned into a "joke", that clearly had nothing to do with any technical disparity. It was a lot more than form match-ups.

Ant please refrain from chiming in.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why do you assume that it's just a matter of form match-ups, and not because Anakin was just more familiar with djem so? Or that Anakin was growing stronger through the fight (per the script)?

And if you look carefully at the novelization's detail of the fight, you'll see lots of things Anakin pulled off that have little to do with his form. When Dooku was on the verge of blacking out from Anakin's strike's, it's not like djem so magically makes you 100x stronger. When Dooku's knowledge of the Force had turned into a "joke", that clearly had nothing to do with any technical disparity. It was a lot more than form match-ups.

Because your claim is that Anakin is Yoda level in power and if that was the case then given Yoda's performance against Dooku simply not being as experienced using one form wouldn't make up for the disparity that should exist. The form advantage just helps to further explain the difference in his performance pre and post form shift.

It's obvious Djem So allows Anakin to apply far more kinetic force behind his blows but there is merit to what you're saying about Anakin growing stronger throughout the fight. You understand that this is because he's unconsciously drawing on his rage as he fights Dooku and when he realizes this he clamps down on what he's doing which puts him pretty much back down to only moderately above the level he was at when employing Shien ( which makes sense given he still has the form advantage ) and clamping down on his rage.

To elaborate. As the fight continues Anakin's mental barriers keeping him from drawing on his rage begins to slip which allows Anakin to do better the longer the fight goes on till Dooku points this out to him. It's like a nuclear reactor leaking and the leak being pointed out so a technician fixes it. The energy caused by that radiation leak is now gone.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Because your claim is that Anakin is Yoda level in power and if that was the case then given Yoda's performance against Dooku simply not being as experienced using one form wouldn't make up for the disparity that should exist.

1. Why not? You keep claiming that Yoda could use a random form he's never practiced before and own Dooku, but I see no evidence for that.
2. If not, why would they bother using ploy forms in the first place?
2. Anakin also wasn't going all-out...



You mean it's a direct function of how seriously Anakin was taking the fight. You're still assuming that using a ploy form while holding back doesn't handicap you at all, even though the entire point of those ploy forms was to make Dooku underestimate them.



You're assuming that the Anakin who is clamping down on his rage is equivalent to a normal Anakin who wasn't harnessing any. I'd beg to differ; Anakin's expending energy and willpower trying to suppress his emotions, and is clearly emotionally conflicted; this would make him weaker than usual. So there's no contradiction between those sections of his performance and the well-corroborated sources comparing him to Yoda in power.

Your position would be more sensible before TCW came out; now we can see that Anakin is already giving Dooku a run for his money throughout that series, and then grows massively more powerful in RotS, and so there's no doubt that he's underperforming at the beginning of their final encounter.

1. Except the parallel doesn't work because as a master of Form V and a lightsaber practitioner capable of making modifications to others forms Shien shouldn't be a random form Anakin's never practiced. Especially when it was planned to be used against Dooku beforehand.

2. They wanted to catch Dooku off guard to gain an early advantage which they did.

3. Going by the fact that he's getting frustrated at their lack of progress I'd beg to differ.

Of course it handicapped him. I'm just saying it wouldn't have done so to the point he was a negligible threat to Dooku in conjunction with Kenobi.

No, I agree that an Anakin fully clamping down on his rage should be less. Except there is. I'm not basing my argument that he isn't off of his abrupt drop in performance due to Dooku's Dun Moch but his performance using Shien against Dooku beforehand.

Originally posted by Trocity
Anakin, lol.

Why lol?

My dad has to get on to do grades. I'll add you to my list of daily responses. As always will drop the debate if counters hit 2 page responses. See ya tomorrow Ell.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Why lol?

Faster, stronger, more skilled, more powerful. Arcann and Vaylin might boast considerable power, but I haven't seen the combative feats required from them to beat the man who utterly annihilated Darth Tyranus.

Considering the Outlander can take on both of them backed by Valkorion, I'm thinking Anakin.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Except the parallel doesn't work because as a master of Form V and a lightsaber practitioner capable of making modifications to others forms Shien shouldn't be a random form Anakin's never practiced. Especially when it was planned to be used against Dooku beforehand.


He still didn't employ it regularly in lightsaber combat. I'm still awaiting your justification for claiming that Yoda could own Dooku with a form he never actually uses. You've asserted this, but haven't really supported it with anything...



They also wanted Dooku to be shocked when they switched to their real forms and owned him. .i.e. the point was to hide their competence.



That doesn't mean he wasn't holding back. He was holding back the entire fight until the end; that was like the entire narrative point of the scene.



Why not? I'm sorry, but you keep repeating the idea that Yoda would do better, but don't really explain why.



He was still emotionally inhibited and deliberately holding back.

The duo ragdolls

lmao

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Considering the Outlander can take on both of them backed by Valkorion, I'm thinking Anakin.
Right...

The Outlander is on par with Anakin Skywalker or stronger. Adding Valkorion in the picture, tips the scale in his favor by miles.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lmao
Do you really think that Anakin Skywalker could contend with two Count Dooku level opponents? Not even close.

Arcann and Vaylin are individually more powerful than Count Dooku.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lmao

Honestly depending on Anakin's mental state Vaylin could do so by herself with a fraction of her power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you really think that Anakin Skywalker could contend with two Count Dooku level opponents? Not even close.

Arcann and Vaylin are individually more powerful than Count Dooku.

They're not Dooku level in sabers, which is what this fight will mostly be.

Originally posted by SunRazer
They're not Dooku level in sabers, which is what this fight will mostly be.
Isn't Arcann an extraordinarily skilled duelist?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Isn't Arcann an extraordinarily skilled duelist?

So are all of the people that Tyranus has beaten

Vaylin doesn't seem to have much going for her in skill.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So are all of the people that Tyranus has beaten

Vaylin doesn't seem to have much going for her in skill.
Arcann outdueled the Outlander, my friend.

If the Outlander is Hero of Tython, then I don't need to elaborate further.

Vaylin can play the role of artillery.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Arcann outdueled the Outlander, my friend.

If the Outlander is Hero of Tython, then I don't need to elaborate further.

Vaylin can play the role or artillery.

Since when did Arcann outduel the Outlander? He was forced to resort to abusing the Force.

Vaylin has to play ranged, since she'd get molested in a duel against Yoda/Sidious-tier opponents.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Since when did Arcann outduel the Outlander? He was forced to resort to abusing the Force.
Didn't he?

Depending upon the choices made, Arcann manages to impale the Outlander in one of the confrontations. Even if we assume that the two are on the same level in blade-work, it still puts Arcann above 99% in this area.

Moreover, if Arcann can incorporate Force powers easily in his dueling maneuvers (he does), he is going to overwhelm Anakin Skywalker anyhow.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vaylin has to play ranged, since she'd get molested in a duel against Yoda/Sidious-tier opponents.
Right.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Didn't he?

Depending upon choices you make, Arcann manages to impale the Outlander in one of the confrontations.

Even if we assume that the two are on the same level in blade-work, Arcann is still better than majority in this area.

Moreover, if Arcann can incorporate Force powers easily in his dueling maneuvers, he is going to defeat Anakin Skywalker anyway.


Right.

Arcann being better than the majority is pretty meaningless. Just about any named Jedi is above the majority, given how many they are.

Arcan isn't ragdolling Anakin, lmfao.

So no proof that Vaylin can stand up to Yoda/Sidious-tier characters? Gotcha.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Arcann being better than the majority is pretty meaningless. Just about any named Jedi is above the majority, given how many they are.
Let go of that nonsense, will you?

Arcann is definitely up there with the greatest duelists of the mythos.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Arcan isn't ragdolling Anakin, lmfao.
Count Dooku could ragdoll Anakin Skywalker, so Arcann can do better.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So no proof that Vaylin can stand up to Yoda/Sidious-tier characters? Gotcha
Not as a duelist, but raw power is another matter.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Let go of that nonsense, will you?

Arcann is definitely up there with the greatest duelists of the mythos.



Lol way to miss the point.

Going to address my response Ell?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol way to miss the point.
No, he is missing the point.

He is asserting that every known PT era Jedi Master is above majority in Jedi dueling arts. I don't give a damn about it.

When I talk about the best, I am not factoring-in every Tom, Dick and Harry who is hyped as a master swordsman. No B-Team nonsense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He is asserting that every known Jedi Master is above majority. It doesn't makes sense to me.



There's a correlation between how powerful a Jedi is and how likely they are to be referenced in stories, for the same reason that we know really good athletes better than really bad ones.



The point is that "among the best" could refer to Shaak Ti, or it could refer to Darth Sidious. Your qualifications are incredibly imprecise. And to be frank, you do this all the time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There's a correlation between how powerful a Jedi is and how likely they are to be referenced in stories, for the same reason that we know really good athletes better than really bad ones.



The point is that "among the best" could refer to Shaak Ti, or it could refer to Darth Sidious. Your qualifications are incredibly imprecise. And to be frank, you do this all the time.
Right.

I shall elaborate my stance with an equation.

Majority < Jedi Master Usma (One of the finest duelists of the Jedi Order) < Lord Praven < Emperor's Wrath (1000+ Jedi and Sith kills and lot of hype under his belt) < Hero of Tython (the Outlander) <= Arcann

Good enough?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Right.

I shall elaborate my stance with an equation.

Majority < Jedi Master Usma (One of the finest duelists of the Jedi Order) < Lord Praven < Emperor's Wrath (1000+ Jedi and Sith kills and lot of hype under his belt) < Hero of Tython (the Outlander) <= Arcann

Good enough?

How does this do anything to place him relative to characters like Dooku or Anakin? Where do they fit into that chain, and how do you know?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How does this do anything to place him relative to characters like Dooku or Anakin? Where do they fit into that chain, and how do you know?
???

How would you know that Anakin Skywalker and/or Count Dooku are even better than Lord Praven?

That is the ambiguity-factor we face in cross-era comparisons. We all make assumptions.

Yeah, but where's your justification for your assumptions?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, but where's your justification for your assumptions?
My equation?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My equation?

The fact that you're mocking the very notion of justifying your position is kind of scary.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Let go of that nonsense, will you?

Arcann is definitely up there with the greatest duelists of the mythos.

So what? Anakin's still his better, by a considerable margin. He's written in RotS to be on the same level as Sidious and Yoda, who dismiss some of the greatest duelists in history instantly.



You mean a vulnerable S4 TCW Anakin? Yeah, you do realize that Anakin grew vastly more powerful after S5, and that he was more powerful than Dooku by RotS, right?





Heck, even Sidious contemplated the possibility of RotS Anakin being more powerful than him.





If we're discussing raw power, then Anakin's in league with Sidious and Yoda, which is beyond what Arcann and Vaylin could ever bring to the table.

Damn, nice one.

Who was he talking to?

@Ellimist

Your trolling is not worth responding to. Move on, if you do not have any argument.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So what? Anakin's still his better, by a considerable margin. He's written in RotS to be on the same level as Sidious and Yoda, who dismiss some of the greatest duelists in history instantly.



You mean a vulnerable S4 TCW Anakin? Yeah, you do realize that Anakin grew vastly more powerful after S5, and that he was more powerful than Dooku by RotS, right?





Heck, even Sidious contemplated the possibility of RotS Anakin being more powerful than him.





If we're discussing raw power, then Anakin's in league with Sidious and Yoda, which is beyond what Arcann and Vaylin could ever bring to the table.
Much of that hype is opinionated and contradictory.

Now:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Majority < Jedi Master Usma (One of the finest duelists of the Jedi Order) < Lord Praven < Emperor's Wrath (1000+ Jedi and Sith kills and lot of hype under his belt) < Hero of Tython (the Outlander) <= Arcann

So when someone literally just asks you to justify your position, like, the most fundamental part of debating or any sort of discourse, you mock the request ("my equation?" and then call the person a troll. Wow.

Seriously, you're one of the worst debaters I've ever seen.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Damn, nice one.

Who was he talking to?

Tyranus.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So when someone literally just asks you to justify your position, you mock the request and then call the person a troll. Wow.

Seriously, you're one of the worst debaters I've ever seen.
Not bothering with your TROLLING.

Your assumptions are stuff of jokes here. You don't have the right to evaluate others, considering your history of trolling and misconceptions.

I don't remember the quote, but it's been a while.

It's nice to see the Anakin brigade hitting the ground running. Not sure how much credit can be divided between Ant, myself, NewGuy, you and whoever else.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Your assumptions

Dude, I literally just asked you if you could explain your assumptions to us, and you responded by calling me a troll. It's like someone asks you for a pen and you reply by cussing them out; that's how weird and incoherent your reaction was.

You're seriously just not intellectually endowed enough to debate in any capacity.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Much of that hype is opinionated and contradictory.

It's not opinionated - it's from objective, factual, third-person sources. You can't deny something because you don't like it. Sidious himself admits that Anakin is possibly more powerful than him, lol.

I have much more for Anakin's raw power, which is in excess of even Yoda. And just in case you fail to comprehend that, raw power =/= mastered power.



No, Arcann's equal to the Outlander. He never defeated him in a duel. And apparently the Outlander had just come out of carbonite in that fight as well, so Arcann might not even be on par with the Outlander after all.

Your link's also strange because Scourge has never fought Praven and has no link with him. Granted, he's better, a strange link regardless.

And as duelists:

Majority > Usma/TPM Obi-Wan > Praven/AotC Obi-Wan > Emperor's Wrath/TCW Obi-Wan > Outlander & Arcann/RotS Obi-Wan > Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Dude, I literally just asked you if you could explain your assumptions to us, and you responded by calling me a troll. It's like someone asks you for a pen and you reply by cussing them out; that's how weird and incoherent your reaction was.

You're seriously just not intellectually endowed enough to debate in any capacity.
I have engaged in lengthy debates with you before, to no avail. I am not going to waste my time again. Arguing with you is like arguing with a wall.

My equation is very simple and easy to understand. If you have comprehension problems, then it is not my problem.

Originally posted by SunRazer

And as duelists:

Majority > Usma/TPM Obi-Wan > Praven/AotC Obi-Wan > Emperor's Wrath/TCW Obi-Wan > Outlander & Arcann/RotS Obi-Wan > Anakin Skywalker.

I'm assuming this is flipped, but I wouldn't agree that Arcann is on RotS Obi Wan's level. I don't think he's done anything to suggest that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

My equation is very simple and easy to understand.

You don't have a relevant equation, sweetie. The thread topic has to do with Arcann/Vaylin vs. Anakin. What does Arcann's standing relative to Scourge have to do with that?

Seriously, do you even know what's going on?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm assuming this is flipped, but I wouldn't agree that Arcann is on RotS Obi Wan's level. I don't think he's done anything to suggest that.

I'm being extremely generous to TOR there. At least I'm leaving room to spare so that he can't argue Arcann is above RotS Obi-Wan, which blocks his argument of Arcann being on Anakin's level since Anakin's canonically an entire level above Obi-Wan.

I'm just using the same chain-link analogy that he is to show that regardless of how he tries to do it, Anakin is better than Arcann.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm being extremely generous to TOR there. At least I'm leaving room to spare so that he can't argue Arcann is above RotS Obi-Wan, which blocks his argument of Arcann being on Anakin's level since Anakin's canonically an entire level above Obi-Wan.

I'm just using the same chain-link analogy that he is to show that regardless of how he tries to do it, Anakin is better than Arcann.

Ah, OK.

Yeah, I'm not really following Legend; does he seriously think that Arcann alone is superior to Anakin?

Yeah, Arcann doesn't belong in the same class as someone who's Yoda/Sidious-tier.

I don't even think Anakin is normally Yoda/Sidious-tier as an overall combatant, but he's definitely too much for Arcann alone.

He is as a swordsman, which is what we're discussing here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not opinionated - it's from objective, factual, third-person sources. You can't deny something because you don't like it. Sidious himself admits that Anakin is possibly more powerful than him, lol.

I have much more for Anakin's raw power, which is in excess of even Yoda. And just in case you fail to comprehend that, raw power =/= mastered power.
So Anakin Skywalker > Yoda and Palpatine (individually) as of Episode III?

Opinionated refers to perspective of a character. Mace Windu might think that Anakin was the most powerful Jedi in existence, but it is an assumption on his part. They could perceive his raw power and draw conclusions from it.

It is the responsibility of neutral observors (us) to figure out Anakin's strengths and weaknesses. Anakin's performance is contradictory. On his best day, he might achieve wonders with his powers. However, he is not that good on consistent basis. He just have his moments.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, Arcann's equal to the Outlander. He never defeated him in a duel.
<= implies what?

Originally posted by SunRazer
And apparently the Outlander had just come out of carbonite in that fight as well, so Arcann might not even be on par with the Outlander after all.
Excuse me?

I am referring to their confrontation on Asylum port. The Outlander had ample time to heal before that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Your link's also strange because Scourge has never fought Praven and has no link with him. Granted, he's better, a strange link regardless.

And as duelists:

Majority > Usma/TPM Obi-Wan > Praven/AotC Obi-Wan > Emperor's Wrath/TCW Obi-Wan > Outlander & Arcann/RotS Obi-Wan > Anakin Skywalker.
WTF?



> refers to greater than

< refers to lesser than

Now;

Obi-Wan Kenobi, as of TPM, is on par with one of the finest duelists of the Jedi Order?

Lord Praven is Anakin (AoTC) level?

Nick Gillard also says that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So Anakin Skywalker > Yoda and Palpatine (individually) as of Episode III?

He's not as skilled as Yoda but he's faster and stronger per the RotS novel narration. And Gillard suggests that Anakin's even more dangerous than them in a fight. So potentially, yes, Anakin can surpass them, but only in select circumstances, it seems. Certainly we know that Anakin's on the same level as Yoda and Palpatine as a warrior, which is out of Arcann's league. Vaylin isn't changing that.



I thought we were comparing raw power?

Also, I don't know whether or not you noticed, but I didn't even quote Mace. I quoted objective sources, and I can quote many more talking about how Anakin was the most powerful Jedi. Would you like me to?



By RotS, he's at that level on a consistent basis unless his opponent is Obi-Wan or he's just turned to the dark side. That isn't the case here.



It implies that you still think Arcann might be better, which is unsupported.



Is that the most recent one? If so, Arcann still wasn't winning in sabers



I appreciate that you find it humorous, but how about an actual response? I'm aware that you severely underrate PT characters. It's not particularly crazy to rank them as I did - in fact, I was generous to TOR.

TPM Kenobi is almost equal to Qui-Gon, who's defeated duelists who are "among the most skilled" and stuff like that which is the only thing to Usma's credit. There's no reason to suspect that Usma might be better than Obi-Wan.

Team