Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

So obviously there are some members on the forum who take Anakin's quotes seriously and put him at >= Yoda/Sidious.

Where do you put him?

Honestly I probably have him around Dooku/Malgus/Bane level as an overall combatant in a standard state with his capabilities fluctuating based on his emotional state.

Above Galen Marek.

And where do you rank him?

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some people on here actually think Anakin would be ****ing prime Father level if you raped Padme in front of him after vivisecting Obi-Wan and Ahsoka in front of him.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And where do you rank him?
I saw his post before he edited it and it said "Yoda level give or take"

Lol. ;-;

I'm both laughing aloud and also shedding silent tears.

On average I'd say he's slightly inferior to Dooku in sabers and the Force.

Assuming Legends,

Emotionally restricted: in between Obi Wan and Dooku in sabers, in between TPM Maul and Obi Wan in Force

Mustafar: Dooku level in sabers, Obi Wan level in Force

Baseline: In between Krayt and Caedus/Plagueis in sabers, in between SoD Maul and Dooku in Force

Motivated (like, no extraordinary amp but taking things seriously): in between Caedus/Plagueis and RotS Sidious in sabers, Dooku in Force

Knightfall: RotS Sidious in sabers, Galen Marek in Force

Zone: DE Sidious in sabers, Yoda in Force


Generally I argue with the motivated version, as Anakin could reach that consistently by trying to. And of course some of this is fairly arbitrary.

Wow! :')

Wow. :I

Wow...

;(

:'(

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Assuming Legends,

Emotionally restricted: in between Obi Wan and Dooku in sabers, in between TPM Maul and Obi Wan in Force

Mustafar: Dooku level in sabers, Obi Wan level in Force

Baseline: In between Krayt and Caedus/Plagueis in sabers, in between SoD Maul and Dooku in Force

Motivated (like, no extraordinary amp but taking things seriously): in between Caedus/Plagueis and RotS Sidious in sabers, Dooku in Force

Knightfall: RotS Sidious in sabers, Galen Marek in Force

Zone: DE Sidious in sabers, Yoda in Force

Generally I argue with the motivated version, as Anakin could reach that consistently by trying to. And of course some of this is fairly arbitrary.

Something like this. Not precisely in agreement with the placements, though.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eNQRp1edaG8/V_L4GiFEfwI/AAAAAAAACwQ/AQlycNv4N50UynX_NsmqWU8gxBo8A0kZgCL0B/h330/2016-09-06.jpg

In terms of pure combative ability, he generally performs at Mace/Dooku+, but steps into the realm of Yoda+ when at his best. Mentally, though, he's still not there yet--so I still don't think I'd ever actually give Anakin the win over Yoda unless he was experiencing some end-of-RotS-like bloodrage.

Just above Dooku, but below Vader. So in between the two Sith Lords.

Sidious
Yoda
Mace
Anakin
Dooku

then everybody else

Not-enraged peak performance Anakin is above the likes of Dooku/Windu, but below Plagueis, imo. Around Caedus Level.

I'd argue baseline Skywalker is above Mace/Dooku/Vader, but still below Yoda noticeably.

By the time he does into the "zone" he's already in Yoda and Sheev's ballpark and can only get better.

Well below Mace and Kun.

Hondo+

Mustafar: Obi-Wan-level

Standard: Dooku+ level

Zonakin: Plagueis-level

Knightfall: RotS Sidious-level

Mortis: Father-level

Zonakin destroyed Dooku even harder than Yoda did. He's above Plagueis-level.

Serious answer thoo between Darth Vader and Mace Windu.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Zonakin destroyed Dooku even harder than Yoda did. He's above Plagueis-level.

Yoda was holding back.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Zonakin destroyed Dooku even harder than Yoda did. He's above Plagueis-level. Maul destroyed Savage even harder than Sidious did. Is he above Plagueis-level too?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Zonakin destroyed Dooku even harder than Yoda did. He's above Plagueis-level.

Well Yoda sparred with Dooku countless times, so Dooku has a good familiarity with his style, while on the other hand Anakin has a stylistic edge over the Count.

Shit comparison is shit. Kys Nova.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Serious answer tho: So between Darth Vader and Mace Windu.
Aren't those canon sources?

Yes, point being?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes, point being?
Canon Vader is imo >Anakin, no question.
Legends Anakin is an totally different story, tho.

I try not to make such a seperation between the two, the way I see it, there is only one Anakin, Canon simply offers more clarity on his abilities. On the other hand yes, if I were to ignore Canon sources I might reach different conclusions.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Well Yoda sparred with Dooku countless times, so Dooku has a good familiarity with his style, while on the other hand Anakin has a stylistic edge over the Count.

Shit comparison is shit. Kys Nova. finally a non-cancer post from you

Zonakin - Yoda/Palpatine level, on Mortis Father level
Knightfall Anakin - between Yoda/Sidious and Mace/Dooku
Standard Anakin - a little below Dooku/Mace

All Anakins are Fckin shit. Stalemating Hondo is his best feat.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
All Anakins are Fckin shit. Stalemating Hondo is his best feat.
that's him in his normal apathetic jedi state. Jedi morals stopped him from straight out stomping him. Same deal when Hondo fought Tano.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul destroyed Savage even harder than Sidious did. Is he above Plagueis-level too? SunRazer really doesn't think before he makes these silly points.

Originally posted by Kurk
that's him in his normal apathetic jedi state. Jedi morals stopped him from straight out stomping him. Same deal when Hondo fought Tano.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vMZrL8FGROw/ULabcmcLJVI/AAAAAAAAERQ/v7kG0KMBoho/s320/bothersigive.gif

I see what u trying Syn.

The idea that Anakin < Dooku might have been more reasonable before TCW. But given that Anakin is already a match for him before explicitly gaining an enormous amount of power by RotS, it's a little hard to believe.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vMZrL8FGROw/ULabcmcLJVI/AAAAAAAAERQ/v7kG0KMBoho/s320/bothersigive.gif
Then why the hell did you post in the first place?

Fine, stay ignorant for all I care.

Originally posted by Kurk
Then why the hell did you post in the first place?

Fine, stay ignorant for all I care.

You have to understand I'm never going to talk about Anakin on the level I believe him to be when more then half of the forum apparently thinks he's DE Sidious tier. There's no point.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You have to understand I'm never going to talk about Anakin on the level I believe him to be when more then half of the forum apparently thinks he's DE Sidious tier. There's no point.
I don't think that

Want to know where I in all seriousness put Zonakin? Somewhere between Vader and Caedus. At most.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Want to know where I in all seriousness put Zonakin? Somewhere between Vader and Caedus. At most.

So you think Caedus could've destroyed Dooku in every capacity, to the point of rendering every aspect of his abilities and character pointless, in like twelve seconds?

Well, thanks for conceding that Caedus >>> Galen, seeing as how ANH Vader couldn't even dominate old Ben Kenobi.

Yeah I think he could given he would have decapitated Kyle Katarn in about 10 seconds whilst dueling 3 other Jedi.

I do believe Caedus > Galen actually as of my updated rankings. If you think a character's capabilities is dictated by their performance against another character who's abilities are dictated off there performance again then thanks for conceding you're a literal retard.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yeah I think he could given he would have decapitated Kyle Katarn in about 10 seconds whilst dueling 3 other Jedi.


What has Kyle done to put him on Dooku's level?

Pretty much nobody has ever beaten someone on Dooku's tier in a duel as thoroughly as Zonakin did. It's basically unprecedented. The best comparison we have is RotS Palpatine vs. pre-vaapad Windu, which was arguably not as heavy a curbstomp as Zonakin vs. Dooku.



Um, no? Obi Wan is a common variable among these comparisons; or rather, the change from RotS to ANH is explicitly a decline and therefore strengthens my point. So in your world, Vader ~ Zonakin >>>>> Dooku >>>>> Obi Wan (RotS) > Obi Wan (ANH) ~ Vader; don't you see a problem there?

I don't have Kyle on Dooku level. I have him approaching there though.

Considering Mace was incapable of even reacting as his allies were blitzed around him and could only initially respond upon assuming a defensive stance, I would disagree.

Um, yes? It notes he declines as a swordsman which is only logical. It notes he increases in power.

In my world Zonakin > Vader > Dooku > RotS Obi Wan.

With ANH Obi Wan falling where somewhere below Vader overall though I haven't given him a specific placement due to the multiple factors at play in his and Vader's fight.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I don't have Kyle on Dooku level. I have him around there.


Based on what?



His situation was not described in the utterly hopeless manner that Dooku's was. He was on the defensive and having difficulties reacting; Dooku's entire life was being rendered pointless by Anakin's existence.



Who are you talking about? If you're not going to use the quote function I'm going to need some context.



You're basically suggesting that Yoda was holding back against Dooku to the point of going from Sidious-tier to Vader-tier. I'd like some evidence.



No, he's below RotS Obi Wan - that's a fact. And I would like to know what these "multiple factors at play" are.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul destroyed Savage even harder than Sidious did. Is he above Plagueis-level too?

Maul destroyed a weaker Savage harder than a toying Sidious did a stronger one, yeah.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Well Yoda sparred with Dooku countless times, so Dooku has a good familiarity with his style, while on the other hand Anakin has a stylistic edge over the Count.

Shit comparison is shit. Kys Nova.

And Yoda doesn't have familiarity with Dooku's style? Dooku's also fought Anakin and other Djem So users before - so he's hardly unfamiliar there. Not to mention sparring a lot with Grievous, who is a avid user of "power moves".

Anakin's "stylistic edge" doesn't make up for the disparity. He was already seemingly moving faster and hitting harder than Yoda before the whole Zonakin part, so it seems like Anakin being the fastest and strongest Jedi is legitimate at this point. Yoda's more skilled, but Anakin's physicals are better, and when enraged, he looks to be better overall.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Based on what?



His situation was not described in the utterly hopeless manner that Dooku's was. He was on the defensive and having difficulties reacting; Dooku's entire life was being rendered pointless by Anakin's existence.



Who are you talking about? If you're not going to use the quote function I'm going to need some context.



You're basically suggesting that Yoda was holding back against Dooku to the point of going from Sidious-tier to Vader-tier. I'd like some evidence.



No, he's below RotS Obi Wan - that's a fact. And I would like to know what these "multiple factors at play" are.

His defeat of an amped Desann.

I don't care about the flowery text that you and so many other have become entranced with. I care about the actions that were shown or described as taking place.

Ben Kenobi is noted to have grown in power.

Some evidence for what? The evidence is his two performances against Dooku being about the same. His amped one maybe being slightly better.

Vader having stated to have been holding back and fighting cautiously aware of his last fight with Ben Kenobi. You can think and hold any opinion you like but please do not try to pass it off as fact.

But do you see Kurk? Do you see why I don't even bother? It just wastes both my time and the Anakin wankers as they try to find holes in a position that has none and I have to respond even though Ell and I are already having pretty much the same argument in another thread.

I'm off Ell. Really don't care to do this little song and dance with you right now.

Right between Vader and Malgus (like Exar Kun, Xesh/Tau, Cade, and Galen Marek).

Oh, and Soa.

And maybe Ulic Qel-Droma and UnuThul.

People are taking Stover's hyperbole too seriously, again, I see.

Yup

Anakin's probably Yoda level.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin's probably Yoda level.

In theory; I don't think he'd take the majority in an actual fight.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin's probably Yoda level.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
In theory; I don't think he'd take the majority in an actual fight.

I agree

Anakin would lose to Yoda.

Windu level. Maybe just a little under him though.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Windu level. Maybe just a little under him though.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Windu level. Maybe just a little under him though. He isn't at Windu level. You're ridiculous.

I'd say somewhere between Obi Wan and Mace

Originally posted by Rebel95
I'd say somewhere between Obi Wan and Mace

Between Dooku and Mace would be a more accurate representation tbh.

There isn't much of a gap though Thor as Dooku's only slightly above Mace.

^ Funny guy.

^ But I agree there isn't much of a gap hence:

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Windu level. Maybe just a little under him though.

You don't believe in Mace's superconducting loop, do you?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You don't believe in Mace's superconducting loop, do you?


I think it's overhyped and was never explained well enough in the first episode place to be useable in versus debates.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Funny guy.

Legitimately not even joking.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I think it's overhyped and was never explained well enough in the first episode place to be useable in versus debates. No one takes you seriously.

Just above Vader.

Originally posted by RHaggis
Just above Vader.
Multiple canon sources state otherwise

Anakin wankers don't care.

If we're talking about Legends, more sources suggest that Anakin > Vader than the other way around.

Below Vader in Force, above top 5 duelist with a blade.

When he's at the top of his game, the sky's the limit.

Skywalker would walk on the sky and claim the stars.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Multiple canon sources state otherwise

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If we're talking about Legends, more sources suggest that Anakin > Vader than the other way around.

Originally posted by RHaggis


Really Haggis? How interesting. Mind posting some of them since this seems to be a stance your in support of and you obviously wouldn't unless you had seen the evidence for yourself.

Canon takes precedence over legends. And statements aside, Anakin has never displayed force feats on Vader's level. Only zonakin could take Vader, and that was a very rare case. Vader would win 8 or 9 times out of 10 in my opinion. Anakin's not consistent enough.

Not to mention there is only one quote pertaining to Anakin > Vader which implies that it's in regards to potential.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Really Haggis? How interesting. Mind posting some of them since this seems to be a stance your in support of and you obviously wouldn't unless you had seen the evidence for yourself.
That wasn't the most passive aggressive post ever lol

Originally posted by Rebel95
Canon takes precedence over legends.

It's not a matter of one taking precedence over the other; they're separate universes. But this is the EU forum, and like 90% of the threads use EU/legends characters.



He likely does not have the same mastery of telekinesis, no, although feats are not the end all be all of analysis. But Anakin's combative feats are better when you scale them, as are his accolades.

Let's talk about his accolades; what is your basis for just dismissing the six or so in and out of universe narrators putting Anakin on Yoda and Sidious's tier? At a certain point it becomes pedantic to find the most ridiculous reason to be skeptical. It's a growing pile of well documented evidence.



Anakin was owning Dooku, while Vader held only a slight advantage over old Ben.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Really Haggis? How interesting. Mind posting some of them since this seems to be a stance your in support of and you obviously wouldn't unless you had seen the evidence for yourself.

It's currently 03:55 am in Scotland. I'll post an argument later today once I get some sleep.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
That wasn't the most passive aggressive post ever lol

Your right. Because it was sarcasm. Try to label correctly DMB.

Originally posted by RHaggis
It's currently 03:55 am in Scotland. I'll post an argument later today once I get some sleep.

I don't expect nor want an argument. Just quotes.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not a matter of one taking precedence over the other; they're separate universes. But this is the EU forum, and like 90% of the threads use EU/legends characters.



He likely does not have the same mastery of telekinesis, no, although feats are not the end all be all of analysis. But Anakin's combative feats are better when you scale them, as are his accolades.

Let's talk about his accolades; what is your basis for just dismissing the six or so in and out of universe narrators putting Anakin on Yoda and Sidious's tier? At a certain point it becomes pedantic to find the most ridiculous reason to be skeptical. It's a growing pile of well documented evidence.



Anakin was owning Dooku, while Vader held only a slight advantage over old Ben.
Fair enough, but I prefer using canon in debates with canon characters because legends is basically just fan fiction at this point, not to say I don't enjoy it

Anakin really doesn't have any impressive combat feats other than his duel with Dooku, which like I said, was highly circumstantial and I doubt he could replicate it again.

Where has it ever been said that Anakin is on Yoda's and Sidious's level? That's totally ridiculous.

Anakin wasn't owning Dooku until he got a rage amp, which like I said, he's never performed at that level before, and unless he does, he doesn't really have a chance against Vader who's been stated in several sources to have grown in power since he gained the suit.

Anakin is one of my favorite characters but his recent wank from some of you is getting out of hand.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Fair enough, but I prefer using canon in debates with canon characters because legends is basically just fan fiction at this point, not to say I don't enjoy it

Anakin really doesn't have any impressive combat feats other than his duel with Dooku, which like I said, was highly circumstantial and I doubt he could replicate it again.

Where has it ever been said that Anakin is on Yoda's and Sidious's level? That's totally ridiculous.

Anakin wasn't owning Dooku until he got a rage amp, which like I said, he's never performed at that level before, and unless he does, he doesn't really have a chance against Vader who's been stated in several sources to have grown in power since he gained the suit.
Anakin's performance against Dooku varies. You have the RotS movie which paints it as though Dooku had the upper edge up until he provoked Anakin by injuring Kenobi and then sealing his fate with dun moch. The RotS novel portrays it as though Dooku was screwed from the beginning with his dun moch actually giving him an edge near the end. Similarly, TCW shows Anakin's progress against Dooku with every fight.

I think it's clear from the movie that until he was provoked by Dooku TKing Obi Wan, Dooku was fending off Anakin and Obi Wan together easily and then tosses Anakin aside with ease while TKing Obi Wan.

He can't perform at Vader's level consistently, maybe on rare occasion so I'd give Vader 8-9/10 against Anakin

The movie doesn't show Dooku tossing Anakin aside easily. He seems pretty desperate when he does the kick-Choke, if anything. Earlier on, Anakin was driving him back up against the stairs, quite rapidly.

The person who wrote that fight puts Anakin above Dooku, as well.

Yeah, well It seemed easy to me considering the fact that he TKed Obi Wan while putting Anakin on his ass.

Interesting, well even if that's true it doesn't mean Anakin is > Vader because Vader is above Dooku as well.

Which the junior novel describes as him using all his effort to do.

Maybe. But Vader doesn't really compare to Yoda or Sidious, where Anakin does per the same person I referred to above (Nick Gillard).

I think Vader isn't too far off from Sidious tbh. I think a lot of people exaggerate the gap.

Canon has Sidious performing similarly to Vader despite revealing "so little of his true power". In Legends, the gap is probably worse.

Canon Vader is a top tier combatant. Legends, yeah the gap is greater

Originally posted by SunRazer
Canon has Sidious performing similarly to Vader despite revealing "so little of his true power". In Legends, the gap is probably worse.


That was in LOTS, a decade prior to Vader being in his Prime.


Originally posted by Rebel95
Canon Vader is a top tier combatant. Legends, yeah the gap is greater


I think even in Legends they were reducing that gap by TFU.

Doubt Sidious was in his prime then as well, but your point's taken. Either way, Sidious is still well ahead of Vader.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Canon has Sidious performing similarly to Vader despite revealing "so little of his true power". In Legends, the gap is probably worse.

We don't know if that was Vader's limit either.

Focused but not enraged Anakin: Dooku level with sabers, slightly below Dooku with Force.

Enraged Anakin: Above Dooku level, both sabers and Force.

Plain Anakin : Slightly above TCW Kenobi in both sabers and Force.

Zone: Sidious/Yoda level with sabers, above Dooku level with Force.

Originally posted by Petrus
Focused but not enraged Anakin: Dooku level with sabers, slightly below Dooku with Force.

Enraged Anakin: Above Dooku level, both sabers and Force.

Plain Anakin : Slightly above TCW Kenobi in both sabers and Force.

Zone: Sidious/Yoda level with sabers, above Dooku level with Force.


That's pretty good.

Originally posted by Petrus
Focused but not enraged Anakin: Dooku level with sabers, slightly below Dooku with Force.

Enraged Anakin: Above Dooku level, both sabers and Force.

Plain Anakin : Slightly above TCW Kenobi in both sabers and Force.

Zone: Sidious/Yoda level with sabers, above Dooku level with Force.
Good. I said something like this in the Zonakin thread too.

Petrus, your "plain" Anakin refers to TCW Anakin, not his RotS incarnation.

Anyway, presumably in a serious fight, Anakin will be focused. And I contest the notion that he's merely Dooku's equal in that mindset - he was winning, a fact that fits with his progressive performances against him in TCW, and several in and out of universe sources putting him on Yoda's tier.

Thanks, Kurk and Thor.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Petrus, your "plain" Anakin refers to TCW Anakin, not his RotS incarnation.

Yes, I specified as much. I think ROTS Anakin in a 'plain' state is slightly above ROTS Kenobi in both areas.



Eh, a lot of his fights in TCW are serious and he doesn't seem to be truly focused or pushing himself to the utmost of his abilities, imho.



Aren't you referring to Zonakin when you say he was winning, though? I think End-TCW Anakin is still below ROTS Anakin, but yes, he was pushing Dooku when focused. I could be convinced that an End-TCW focused Anakin could be slightly above Dooku, but for now, this is my order.

The growth from TCW to RotS for Anakin is described on the SW database as massive, IIRC, which makes sense given that we need a new meaning to Anakin's "my powers have doubled since the last time we met" comment, and to Dooku's astonishment at Anakin's power in the RotS novelization.

And Anakin was winning before the Zone too. The only times he was losing were win he was actively restraining himself.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The growth from TCW to RotS for Anakin is described on the SW database as massive, IIRC, which makes sense given that we need a new meaning to Anakin's "my powers have doubled since the last time we met" comment, and to Dooku's astonishment at Anakin's power in the RotS novelization.

And Anakin was winning before the Zone too. The only times he was losing were win he was actively restraining himself.

Yeah, that's why I said so. Kenobi was also superior in ROTS.

And yeah, I think S5/6 TCW Anakin in a focused state would indeed give Dooku a run for his money, at least.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
and several in and out of universe sources putting him on Yoda's tier. What sources?

Originally posted by Nephthys
On average I'd say he's slightly inferior to Dooku in sabers and the Force.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Really Haggis? How interesting. Mind posting some of them since this seems to be a stance your in support of and you obviously wouldn't unless you had seen the evidence for yourself.

There isn't as much as I suspected. However, I'll start with this one first:

"'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."

- Nick Gillard in StarWars.com Episode III Production Article

While this isn't a direct placement on Anakin being superior to Vader, it can be useful in presenting a case for Anakin's superiority in skill. While I certainly wouldn't personally tier Anakin to be equals to the likes of Yoda and Sidious, considering he's placed closer to their level than the likes of Obi-Wan and the fact that Vader has little hype to suggest he ever reached such a high level of skill then one would assume Skywalker's superiority in this area. Unless I'm missing something to suggest otherwise, then please share.

Now, the second statement:

"And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

- Revenge of the Sith

Note that this quote refers back rather than what could have been, thus wasn't speaking of potential. The power he used to have is only a 'memory', suggesting that it's something of the past and what he once had but can no longer employ.

Then we have Lucas claiming that a lot of the powers Anakin did possessed were diminished when put in the suit, suggesting that Vader was weaker:

"So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point"

- George Lucas to Vanity Fair Magazine

And even 19 years later during the events of a New Hope, Vader, along with Kenobi, were noted as inferior to their 'former selves':

"When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know that they are but shadows of their former selves"

- Star Wars Insider #62: Fightsaber

This establishes Anakin's superiority to Darth Vader as of A New Hope. However, one might argue this quote is contradicted by the Beware the Sith quote (which is more up to date), stating that Vader as of a New Hope was apparently more powerful:

"Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and more powerful."

- Beware The Sith

However, this quote simply states that Vader has grown in power since the last duel on Mustafar. However considering Mustafar Anakin was emotionally hindered to a decent degree this doesn't necessarily scale him to base RoTS Anakin.

Now, of course Vader improved by the time of RoTJ from ANH, of course and there are statements to suggest this. However, there is nothing in which I have seen that suggest said power growth surpassed the base power of Anakin by RoTS. Some may point to the statement in the Return of the Jedi novel which reads:

"His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor"

- Return of the Jedi

Firstly, the quote seems to suggest that Vader was feeling this power flow through him because of his close presence with Palpatine. Secondly, even if that weren't the case that Palpatine's presence didn't affect him and he did just feel more powerful than he did before, this quote was from Vader's point of view. Considering that Vader tended to speak in third person when regarding his past self, I doubt he was including his Jedi power when claiming he felt more powerful than he did before. This is backed up in a source:

"His anger kept him alive, and he was forever scarred not only by his wounds but also by betrayal. Vader abandoned his former identity."

- Star Wars Databank: Darth Vader

Regardless of these, from a feat on feat analysis, Anakin Skywalker impresses me more, especially, and at the very least, in skill.

You're missing the fact that sources have confirmed Vader's growth in power and via basic common sense/logic Vader has grown more skilled due to gaining more knowledge and combat experience over the course of nearly 2 decades. The only reason Vader would be a lesser combatant would be his reduced agility.

The first three quotes you bring up are referencing potential and one is from Vader's perspective just after he's been placed into his suit and when he's deeply depressed. As I'm sure you're well aware the mental state of a Force user affects their ability especially in regards to Anakin. By the end of the novel his outlook has improved drastically as has his performance against the Jedi.

The fourth quote is a retcon as you acknowledged.

It does not state he's grown in power since their last duel on Mustafar. It states Vader in general has grown in power. You can interpret this one of two ways, It referencing Vader as his title and thus only take into account his time as a Sith Lord or Vader as the individual he is with them simply referencing the latter which is the stance I take personally.

I'm sorry, but given the fact that Vader mused on his power as Anakin in RoDV I doubt he would refrain from taking into account his capabilities as Anakin in Return of the Jedi. Also, unless you have evidence of Sidious amping Vader in that scene I don't see any reason for Sidious to have done so and thus don't view it as a valid assumption.

And I can say the same about Vader and I do because it's true. Anakin has never replicated feats on par with Vader's own in a standard state. Hell, if you take into account the TFU I/II cutscenes ( which I know you do ) he's never shown a superior feat to Vader's best in any state.

Originally posted by RHaggis
There isn't as much as I suspected. However, I'll start with this one first:

"'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."

- Nick Gillard in StarWars.com Episode III Production Article

While this isn't a direct placement on Anakin being superior to Vader, it can be useful in presenting a case for Anakin's superiority in skill. While I certainly wouldn't personally tier Anakin to be equals to the likes of Yoda and Sidious, considering he's placed closer to their level than the likes of Obi-Wan and the fact that Vader has little hype to suggest he ever reached such a high level of skill then one would assume Skywalker's superiority in this area. Unless I'm missing something to suggest otherwise, then please share.

Now, the second statement:

"And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

- Revenge of the Sith

Note that this quote refers back rather than what could have been, thus wasn't speaking of potential. The power he used to have is only a 'memory', suggesting that it's something of the past and what he once had but can no longer employ.

Then we have Lucas claiming that a lot of the powers Anakin did possessed were diminished when put in the suit, suggesting that Vader was weaker:

"So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point"

- George Lucas to Vanity Fair Magazine

And even 19 years later during the events of a New Hope, Vader, along with Kenobi, were noted as inferior to their 'former selves':

"When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know that they are but shadows of their former selves"

- Star Wars Insider #62: Fightsaber

This establishes Anakin's superiority to Darth Vader as of A New Hope. However, one might argue this quote is contradicted by the Beware the Sith quote (which is more up to date), stating that Vader as of a New Hope was apparently more powerful:

"Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and more powerful."

- Beware The Sith

However, this quote simply states that Vader has grown in power since the last duel on Mustafar. However considering Mustafar Anakin was emotionally hindered to a decent degree this doesn't necessarily scale him to base RoTS Anakin.

Now, of course Vader improved by the time of RoTJ from ANH, of course and there are statements to suggest this. However, there is nothing in which I have seen that suggest said power growth surpassed the base power of Anakin by RoTS. Some may point to the statement in the Return of the Jedi novel which reads:

"His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor"

- Return of the Jedi

Firstly, the quote seems to suggest that Vader was feeling this power flow through him because of his close presence with Palpatine. Secondly, even if that weren't the case that Palpatine's presence didn't affect him and he did just feel more powerful than he did before, this quote was from Vader's point of view. Considering that Vader tended to speak in third person when regarding his past self, I doubt he was including his Jedi power when claiming he felt more powerful than he did before. This is backed up in a source:

"His anger kept him alive, and he was forever scarred not only by his wounds but also by betrayal. Vader abandoned his former identity."

- Star Wars Databank: Darth Vader

Regardless of these, from a feat on feat analysis, Anakin Skywalker impresses me more, especially, and at the very least, in skill.
You also forgot the quote from Lords of the Sith, saying that his injuries and suffering had strengthened his connection to the force and the dark side.

Personally, I find Vader far more impressive than he was as Anakin. The numerous statements that say he became more powerful and his feats make it pretty obvious he's > Anakin, at least to me. You should check out the Darth Vader comics, some of the stuff he does in those are beyond anything Anakin has done.

I'd say Anakin is Dooku/Mace tier

Pre suit was much better in skill and mobility than the painter gone blind. Love that line. **** suit Vader.

Yes we all know you hate Vader

Originally posted by Rebel95
Yes we all know you hate Vader I say that with no personal pleasure whatsoever.

Quan gets it.

Originally posted by Rebel95
You also forgot the quote from Lords of the Sith, saying that his injuries and suffering had strengthened his connection to the force and the dark side.

Personally, I find Vader far more impressive than he was as Anakin. The numerous statements that say he became more powerful and his feats make it pretty obvious he's > Anakin, at least to me. You should check out the Darth Vader comics, some of the stuff he does in those are beyond anything Anakin has done.

Originally posted by Rebel95
You also forgot the quote from Lords of the Sith, saying that his injuries and suffering had strengthened his connection to the force and the dark side.

Personally, I find Vader far more impressive than he was as Anakin. The numerous statements that say he became more powerful and his feats make it pretty obvious he's > Anakin, at least to me. You should check out the Darth Vader comics, some of the stuff he does in those are beyond anything Anakin has done.

LotS was from Vader's subjective perspective, and Vader thinks he's killed Anakin Skywalker easily and that he's weak.

And nah, none of Vader's feats are up to stack with Anakin's high end feats.

Originally posted by MythLord
LotS was from Vader's subjective perspective, and Vader thinks he's killed Anakin Skywalker easily and that he's weak.

And nah, none of Vader's feats are up to stack with Anakin's high end feats.
Excuses, excuses.. And he thinks he was weak before as a person, not in power.

No way, Vader's force feats are way more impressive than anything Anakin's ever done, it's really not close. I could list some for you but I'm tired and going to bed lol

Originally posted by Rebel95
Excuses, excuses.. And he thinks he was weak before as a person, not in power.

No way, Vader's force feats are way more impressive than anything Anakin's ever done, it's really not close. I could list some for you but I'm tired and going to bed lol

They aren't excuses, lol. They're actual fact. And he thinks Anakin is weak as a general, and consider Anakin a completely separate entity from himself. Whatever he thinks "strengthened him" is just his subjective wish.

Yes way, actually. Vader's Force feats can either be scaled to Anakin(since he didn't begin to touch Skywalker's power until TFU) or are inferior.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But this is the EU forum, and like 90% of the threads use EU/legends characters.I'm afraid it's not darling, I suggest you read up on the rules.

More to the point though in this thread alone you've raised Canon material (i.e. TCW and the SW Databank) to support your point, despite the fact that Canon continuity holistically disagrees with you. If your going to use Canon sources I'm afraid you can't cherry pick, otherwise just stick to Legends.

Gillard's stuff holds in Canon as well.

As in it holds no weight, yeah.

He wrote the fights and Lucas was satisfied with what he did. That's enough of a weighting to be taken seriously.

Also, which quotes in particular establish Canon Vader as more powerful, or better overall?

But not enough to save it from being overridden by actual Canon.

And for the evidence:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15944862#post15944862

Being more powerful doesn't necessarily make Vader a better combatant overall at all. So Gillard's quote stands.

Vader in his prime. Doesn't count Anakin. Also, what's the context of the quote? Doubt it matters, but I'm curious all the same.

The first quote says that pre-suit Vader > Anakin.

And the second quote says that says pre-RotJ Vader = Peak!Vader

i.e. pre-RotJ Vader > pre-suit Vader > Anakin.

And Gillard says that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever, which makes him "unbeatable", so yeah he's wrong, which brings his entire outlook on the character into reasonable question.

And you'll find the contexts for Pablo's statement in the youtube link.

As I said, being more powerful doesn't make you better at everything. Traya was more powerful than the Exile, yet she lost in combat. Dooku was "far more powerful" than Savage and Ventress per the website, but website also claims that he barely had the advantage. Anakin's also tremendously more powerful than Obi-Wan, but the gap in combat doesn't match the gap in Force power.

Gillard doesn't say that Anakin's raw power makes him unbeatable anywhere. He mentions those things separately. He also obviously means "unbeatable" in the context of when he's performing at his best, since he's the one who explains the context of how Obi-Wan beats Anakin. That's reinforced by The Making of Revenge of the Sith, which states that Anakin's the most powerful Jedi ever, but mentions Gillard's explanation of the context that allows Obi-Wan to beat him.

Besides, that outlook isn't wrong at all. The RotS novel supports it, and that was personally edited and approved of by George Lucas.

1. The central issue here is that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever. In which case Canon invalidates that, that is my case.

2. If we want to argue that Anakin somehow remains a better combatant despite this, we can, but using Gillard, who believes Anakin wields Yoda+ strength, to do that, is invalid for obvious reasons.

3. Certainly Gillard's assessment aligns with Legends, particular the RotS novel, but it does not stand in Canon, which is what you claimed.

1. He is the most powerful Jedi ever. The TCW visual guide, RotS novel, Making of RotS, etc. confirms such.

Palpatine also contemplates in the novel that Anakin could well be more powerful than even him, which I doubt he ever did to Vader.

2. Invalid because you don't like it? Anakin exhibited Yoda+ strength against Dooku.

3. It does, since Canon is fundamentally built on the films, and the fights in the films were written by him. Also, the RotS novel is canon where it doesn't contradict with the films, which means that all expository writing is canon.

Forgot to reply, thanks for the reminder Beni.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And Yoda doesn't have familiarity with Dooku's style?

He does, which we know helps prolong the fight (and their fight was already longer than their actual prowess dictates since Yoda was defensive for like half the fight for no apparent reason). This is pretty rich coming from someone who always argues Kenobi's performance against Mustafar Anakin was partially due to their familiarity.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku's also fought Anakin and other Djem So users before - so he's hardly unfamiliar there.

Lmao, that doesn't even begin to be comparable to a Master/Padawan relationship. Shit Nova, you couldn't be serious.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not to mention sparring a lot with Grievous, who is a avid user of "power moves".

Which was so shit that Dooku discouraged him using it, iirc.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Anakin's "stylistic edge" doesn't make up for the disparity. He was already seemingly moving faster and hitting harder than Yoda before the whole Zonakin part, so it seems like Anakin being the fastest and strongest Jedi is legitimate at this point. Yoda's more skilled, but Anakin's physicals are better, and when enraged, he looks to be better overall.

Kenobi moved faster than Dooku as well in the RotS novel, and Yoda overpowering Sidious in a bladelock > anally penetrating Dooku.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Forgot to reply, thanks for the reminder Beni.

He does, which we know helps prolong the fight (and their fight was already longer than their actual prowess dictates since Yoda was defensive for like half the fight for no apparent reason). This is pretty rich coming from someone who always argues Kenobi's performance against Mustafar Anakin was partially due to their familiarity.

I know that. I'm hardly discrediting it. Obviously Yoda's more skilled than Anakin, and that's supported by other quotes. But Anakin's faster and stronger per the RotS novel, and his performance against Dooku relative to Yoda's proves it as well. The force of Anakin's strikes were greater than Yoda's. That's evident.

EDIT: It's been so long that I forgot what we were arguing about - Zonakin vs Yoda in terms of performance against Dooku. In which case, the gap makes up for the "familiarity", which wouldn't be that big of a problem if you could curbstomp somebody anyway. I mean, Maul and Sidious had a master-apprentice relationship (and apparently they did spar?) but it was evident that Sidious could instantly stomp Maul as soon as he wanted to.



Obviously not, but it's there. Didn't say anything else, but it's worth noting. You don't need to put words in my mouth and then laugh at the apparent stupidity that's coming out of my mouth. It's all stuff that you put in.



Not because it was shit, but because Dooku didn't think power moves were of use at that level of skill. He was proven wrong not long after he said that, of course.



Moving faster once or twice doesn't mean shit. Anakin continuously moving his lightsaber so quickly that Dooku saw the room through an electric haze, which never happened against Yoda, is something else entirely. That comparison is terrible.

Since when did Yoda overpower Sidious in a bladelock?

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. He is the most powerful Jedi ever. The TCW visual guide, RotS novel, Making of RotS, etc. confirms such.Legends sources confirm as such, the TCW visual guide stating he is their greatest hero, big difference.

On the other hand until Vader is shown or confirmed to be the most powerful Sith Lord ever, I won't be suspending my disbelief.

Speculation, naturally. However in Dark Lord Sidious does indeed believe that one day Vader would become "a risk to his mastery."

Invalid because Canon plainly indicates otherwise, are you even paying attention?

And that's your interpretation of events, naturally I don't share it.

It doesn't because it doesn't, Disney is clearly going in a different direction. Too bad.

And the RotS novel was stated by Del Rey's Twitter (yet to be confirmed by Disney or even their own timeline) that the novelisations are Canon were they align with the films. Do not conflate that with contradict. So no, all the expository stuff is not Canon given its not in the movie. And take note that Anakin being the most powerful Jedi ever does not explicitly align with anything said or even seen on screen.

1. The Making of RotS is canon, I believe. And no, I'm not talking about the TCW visual guide. There's a quote that Ant didn't want me to put in my RT about how "even the most powerful Jedi can get injured" (I'm paraphrasing, obviously).

2. Doesn't compare.

3. Show me where Canon suggests that Yoda hurt Dooku with his strength more than Anakin did. Because if we're taking films only, then it's about the same, at worst.

4. You've shown me that Disney's going in a different direction with regard to Force power, but that doesn't mean overall combative ability, which you've accepted.

5. Timelines only ever refer to a source once, not all of its variations, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul destroyed a weaker Savage harder than a toying Sidious did a stronger one, yeah. So Maul should be roughly equal with Sidious in that fight, right?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So Maul should be roughly equal with Sidious in that fight, right?

Because?

On a side note, if we're running off Canon and invalidating novelizations etc, that would mean that Anakin was just better than Dooku, and not that it was Zonakin.

So he still defeated Dooku in a timespan that Yoda couldn't do it in, and there's no "master-apprentice relationship", "form advantage" or any of that if we're going off movies only. So in terms of that strict definition of "canon only", then it does seem like Gillard's position isn't so silly after all.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know that. I'm hardly discrediting it. Obviously Yoda's more skilled than Anakin, and that's supported by other quotes. But Anakin's faster and stronger per the RotS novel, and his performance against Dooku relative to Yoda's proves it as well. The force of Anakin's strikes were greater than Yoda's. That's evident.

Considering that Anakin uses a strength based style while Yoda uses a speed based style that's hardly proves Anakin is stronger.

Originally posted by SunRazer
EDIT: It's been so long that I forgot what we were arguing about - Zonakin vs Yoda in terms of performance against Dooku. In which case, the gap makes up for the "familiarity", which wouldn't be that big of a problem if you could curbstomp somebody anyway. I mean, Maul and Sidious had a master-apprentice relationship (and apparently they did spar?) but it was evident that Sidious could instantly stomp Maul as soon as he wanted to.

Maul's shit we know that, idk what does have to do with this. And I don't know what gap are you talking about. Yoda after going on the offensive outclassed Dooku by the same timeframe Anakin did.

Yoda with hilarious ease defending from Dooku with Soresu which is not even his main style is just as impressive, if not more, as Anakin shitting on him offensively.


Originally posted by SunRazer
Obviously not, but it's there. Didn't say anything else, but it's worth noting. You don't need to put words in my mouth and then laugh at the apparent stupidity that's coming out of my mouth. It's all stuff that you put in.

You thought it's important enough to make a note of it, which is ridiculous. Almost every PT era force user fought against all of the forms, doesn't mean they gain some edge of it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not because it was shit, but because Dooku didn't think power moves were of use at that level of skill. He was proven wrong not long after he said that, of course.

So? How does this even begin to mean Dooku wasn't inherently disadvantaged against Anakin's Djem So?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Moving faster once or twice doesn't mean shit. Anakin continuously moving his lightsaber so quickly that Dooku saw the room through an electric haze, which never happened against Yoda, is something else entirely. That comparison is terrible.

Nah it's a perfectly viable comparison. If Kenobi can move faster than Dooku several times and Anakin can do it constantly, that hardly puts him above Yoda, when Yoda matched the speed of Sidious who can pretty much blitz Kenobi.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Since when did Yoda overpower Sidious in a bladelock?

http://share.gifyoutube.com/yDaoDx.gif

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The Making of RotS is canon, I believe. And no, I'm not talking about the TCW visual guide. There's a quote that Ant didn't want me to put in my RT about how "even the most powerful Jedi can get injured" (I'm paraphrasing, obviously).If your referring to the book it was published in 2005, so no. If your referring to the video commentary then I don't think that has any Canon status bar the authority of the speakers in it. In this case, none.

And you just said you were talking about the TCW visual guide, so which source is it?

Right, is that supposed to mean something?

You say that as if your interpretation of Anakin vs Dooku is factual. On the other hand, sure, Vader being nowhere near Yoda-tier in strength.

In terms of say speed, agility or skill as a result of Vader's suit. But strength? On what basis? Vader's suit didn't hinder his strength in anyway, only amplified it, and nothing else should hinder his ability to channel his Force power into physical dominance. In fact, its intrinsic to his style.

Fair, but the novelisation is worthless all the same.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because? Because of their comparable performance against Savage?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Considering that Anakin uses a strength based style while Yoda uses a speed based style that's hardly proves Anakin is stronger.

Well, when we refer to Yoda's strength, we refer to it in the context of him in battle, which would mean he's using Ataru. The same goes for Anakin and Djem So.

We don't assume that Yoda would use Djem So in a comparison like this.



Maul's fine and close enough to Dooku.

I'll check the times tomorrow, but for what it's worth, Anakin actually defeated Dooku, whereas Yoda was about to but didn't quite do it.



Soresu? Where's this shit coming from?



Dooku fought against Anakin numerous times. He has more of a familiarity than your average PT joe vs any form.



I didn't say it did. It does somewhat lessen the advantage, though.



Sorry, but no. Obi-Wan moved faster than Dooku, what, once or twice, when Dooku was surprised by the sudden form switch and what not? Doesn't compare.



Overpowering in the loosest sense of the word, but whatever.



Ah, great, we've found it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because of their comparable performance against Savage?

You mean when Sidious was holding back immensely?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
If your referring to the book it was published in 2005, so no. If your referring to the video commentary then I don't think that has any Canon status bar the authority of the speakers in it. In this case, none.

It's RotS supplementary material.



The quote's also from the TCW Visual Guide, is it not? Ask Ant. What other TCW guides are there?



Yeah, that Sidious being afraid of Vader becoming a risk to him at some point in the future doesn't compare to Sidious acknowledging that Anakin might be more powerful than himself in the present. And later admitting that Anakin's skills were unparalleled amongst all Sith, including himself.



Vader being nowhere near Yoda-tier in strength? What's this based on? Have we even seen the limits of Vader's strength in the suit?



I didn't say Anakin was stronger.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's RotS supplementary material.That's nice, still not Canon.

I'm asking you lol. You just said "I'm not talking about the TCW Visual Guide", I assume you misspoke, in which case I await the full quote. Then I'll hit you up with Hondo vs Anakin and we can all have a good laugh about it.

OK, I assume you were referring to something else. Like Vader being more powerful than the most powerful Jedi ever. Which is problematic for obvious reasons.

And for the record, he said the same thing about Vader. Naturally excluding himself though, because Sidious > Vader.

Not crushing Ahsoka? Not crushing Ben? Not crushing Luke? It's obvious he's not on Yoda's level, let alone beyond it. And I see no reason to believe he was holding back against anyone other than ESB Luke (though he appears to go all-out at the end).

Then it's a concession then, because Vader being stronger than Yoda is ****ing ridiculous.

Also to weigh in on the Yoda vs Dooku debate, reading over the novelisations I'm finding that for the most part Yoda stays on the defence, the junior novelisation also states:Given that, a comparison between Anakin, who was going all-out and for the kill, becomes even more strained.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, when we refer to Yoda's strength, we refer to it in the context of him in battle, which would mean he's using Ataru. The same goes for Anakin and Djem So.

We don't assume that Yoda would use Djem So in a comparison like this.

Hardly. You tried to prove Anakin is more powerful, by default, than Yoda by comparing the power of their strokes even though they are incomparable.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul's fine and close enough to Dooku.

I'll check the times tomorrow, but for what it's worth, Anakin actually defeated Dooku, whereas Yoda was about to but didn't quite do it.

True, but you paint it as if their performance is significantly different, but if you take context and circumstances into account they actually aren't.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Soresu? Where's this shit coming from?

From the description of the novel. But if you want to argue that Yoda used Ataru for defense then that makes Dooku's performance even more hilariously bad. I'm game.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku fought against Anakin numerous times. He has more of a familiarity than your average PT joe vs any form.

Not in the context of the RotS novel though. And you are trying to argue it from both sides. On one hand you bring up that the duo's switch of form caughed Dooku offguard and on the other you argue that he fought Anakin a lot. Pick.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say it did. It does somewhat lessen the advantage, though.

Same as above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sorry, but no. Obi-Wan moved faster than Dooku, what, once or twice, when Dooku was surprised by the sudden form switch and what not? Doesn't compare.

3 times actually, one of them far after the form switch. Besides how does a form switch makes Dooku slower?