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another thread raised my curiosity about the force compared to other mystic entities. let's say it's jean in full command of the full force--dark phoenix incarnation but with the full force behind her. all fights take place in space, all entities operate as though in their home realms. how far she makes it?

1. mephisto
2. odin
3. dormammu
4. cyttorak
5. chthon
6. vishanti
7. shuma

order may be arguable--these mystic demon types are notoriously tough to gauge--so feel free to adjust if you feel it truly warranted. how many of them can the full force, out to kill/devour, take out?

I honestly don't see her getting past one.

really? i get the pf hasn't been shown in the best light at times, but i think dark phoenix jean could have had mephisto as a light snack....could be i'm wrong though. i def see the pf as universal level, and mephisto isn't close to that imo not ecen in hell. /shrug

@Leo
Don't forget, Mephisto himself is a universal power. His fight with Galactus in Hell was wrecking the universe. He messed with Marvel continuity during the "One More Day" story arc. There's more insane things he's done but you get the idea.

I honestly believe the PF is planetary level at best now.

leo wants us to use the PF at its *best* here.

The Hell Lords are all powerful in respected dimensions. Anyone looking to pick a fight against in their home dimensions must be in the same class of power as "Cosmic Abstracts - Space Gods", to challenge and best them.

"Celestials, Proemial Gods, The Watchers, Galactus", these are being who are omnipotent onto themselves, and are able to carry that omnipotence where ever they go. The Phoenix Force falls within that classification, and as such should be able to contend with the Hell Lords.

Originally posted by Galan007
leo wants us to use the PF at its *best* here.
At it's best, then it can't be the current PF. We saw what Marvel did to it in AvX.

Even the Classic PF really doesn't have much in way of showings vs cosmic beings. We got a panel back during the Dark Phoenix Saga where Reed's instruments gauged DP's power as 'rivaling that of Galactus'. This is pretty impressive because DP admitted that her power was finite at that point and needed time to grow :
https://s13.postimg.org/861w8kjz7/3504958_2541649475_xmtdp.jpg https://s14.postimg.org/v9pb6ftj1/1175125_dark_phoenix_destroys01.jpg

There's a What If I wanted a mod ruling on but I'll leave that for later.

So this is WPOTC?

Originally posted by "Id"
The Hell Lords are all powerful in respected dimensions. Anyone looking to pick a fight against in their home dimensions must be in the same class of power as "Cosmic Abstracts - Space Gods", to challenge and best them.

"Celestials, Proemial Gods, The Watchers, Galactus", these are being who are omnipotent onto themselves, and are able to carry that omnipotence where ever they go. The Phoenix Force falls within that classification, and as such should be able to contend with the Hell Lords.

They're "supposed" to be all powerful but their showings portray a completely different picture. Mephisto in particular has lost against Thor 2 times, the second time after Thor had battled his minions for hours. In a third instance Mephisto admitted he couldn't harm thor and that a battle between them would continue for all eternity. All of this was in Mephisto's own realm. He's also been stalemated by surfer in his realm among a couple of other things. The same thing applies to many of these hell lords, they have been stalemated and even bested by herald level beings, there are others i could reference but point being they are well below space gods like Galactus or the celestials even in their realms.

DP isn't getting past Odin though.

We saw how the Phoenix stacks up against mystics.

Where do these mystics stack up against Shou Lou, the Undying??

Probably stops at 3.

some interesting replies. far be it from me to be the PF backer, but damn, seems the force really gets no respect nowadays. imo a full unfettered force would at least reach the vishanti, and from there it would be tricky. i've always assumed the 616 PF is as powerful as the what if versions and one of those books could be interpretted to me to mean the PF destroyed a universe as its power continued to expand outward. jean also killed dormmy easily in one of those what ifs....and galactus iirc. not canon, obviously, but i see the pf being well above the likes of odin and dormammu and cyttorak. galactus fought evenly with agamotto, and i have no doubt phoenix could do at LEAST as well as he did, but likely a lot better since there was nothing to indicate that was an especially powerful galactus. remember this is a full powered phoenix....

anyway, where's gs when he's needed? lol

Originally posted by leonidas
some interesting replies. far be it from me to be the PF backer, but damn, seems the force really gets no respect nowadays. imo a full unfettered force would at least reach the vishanti, and from there it would be tricky. i've always assumed the 616 PF is as powerful as the what if versions and one of those books could be interpretted to me to mean the PF destroyed a universe as its power continued to expand outward. jean also killed dormmy easily in one of those what ifs....and galactus iirc. not canon, obviously, but i see the pf being well above the likes of odin and dormammu and cyttorak. galactus fought evenly with agamotto, and i have no doubt phoenix could do at LEAST as well as he did, but likely a lot better since there was nothing to indicate that was an especially powerful galactus. remember this is a full powered phoenix....

anyway, where's gs when he's needed? lol
Dormmamu stalemated Eternity twice, i dont think anyone would put Dark Phoenix above Eternity, would you?

Originally posted by leonidas
some interesting replies. far be it from me to be the PF backer, but damn, seems the force really gets no respect nowadays. GS over here...


herbhappy

is the PF really that uber anymore?

Originally posted by t0sh
Dormmamu stalemated Eternity twice, i dont think anyone would put Dark Phoenix above Eternity, would you?

and has been beaten by strange countless times.... dormmy battled eternity once, 50yrs ago and did well. the other time he beat eternity was due strictly to a plot device. eternity is far above dormmamu on average. since this is unamped dormammu, without plot assistance, i'd def put the PF above the likes of him.

Originally posted by Galan007
GS over here...


herbhappy

yep, that's me. carrying the torch, righting phoenix injustices everywhere.

anyway, you think the PF is skyfather level too? honestly, i don't see many on that list who could do to galactus--even a weak one, if he was weak--what RACHEL (a far weaker host) did to him....

Eternity has nothing to do with life. Eternity orginally before Infinity Wars was the physical embodiment of time, after Infinity Wars and his merger with Infinity is the physical representation of an entire cosmos / muliverse depending of what the writer writers.

Phoenix Force is the "prime force of life", which frankly is not but hyperbole, but that status itself doesnt put her even at Eternity level let alone above.

White Phoenix is but an avatar of Phoenix Force, one that is fully bonded to Phoenix Force yes, but there is nothing to say an avatar of the force would be just as powerful as the force itself, given the force has countless of other avatars running around even when Jean is bonded as white Phoenix.

That being said White Phoenix would likely win this encounter, not too sure about curbstomp, nor am i going to try and debate anyone out of thinking what they believe, but the reasoning you have provided are certainly not correct.

Originally posted by t0sh
Dormmamu stalemated Eternity twice, i dont think anyone would put Dark Phoenix above Eternity, would you?
In What If Wolverine was Lord of Vampires during Inferno, DP Jean annihilated Dormammu in his realm. It was a one panel fight :
https://s9.postimg.org/nn9x09mvv/4502270_45.jpg https://s9.postimg.org/qveedb95n/4502271_46.jpg

Yes, I realize this a What If and hence not canon.

Originally posted by t0sh
Eternity has nothing to do with life. Eternity orginally before Infinity Wars was the physical embodiment of time, after Infinity Wars and his merger with Infinity is the physical representation of an entire cosmos / muliverse depending of what the writer writers.

Phoenix Force is the "prime force of life", which frankly is not but hyperbole, but that status itself doesnt put her even at Eternity level let alone above.

White Phoenix is but an avatar of Phoenix Force, one that is fully bonded to Phoenix Force yes, but there is nothing to say an avatar of the force would be just as powerful as the force itself, given the force has countless of other avatars running around even when Jean is bonded as white Phoenix.

That being said White Phoenix would likely win this encounter, not too sure about curbstomp, nor am i going to try and debate anyone out of thinking what they believe, but the reasoning you have provided are certainly not correct.

i....have no idea what you're talking about, nor do i have any idea why you felt the need to give me basic facts about eternity that everybody knows. i wasn't talking about eternity. i was talking about dormammu. and i didn't give you a specific reason for why i think phoenix wins the fight, so....yeah. phoenix's relative station compared to galactus HAS been shown and explored and that is all i commented on and ALLUDED to the idea that if she could beat galactus, she should fare well here.

so basically the reasoning i gave is perfectly fine. you simply had no idea what i was saying.

@zop--yeah, that's one of the issues i referenced. and the PF went on to (arguably) destroy the universe in another issue. you're right though, non-canon (i think that was the same issue she crushed the goblin queen....?) but still, imo, telling as relates to the power phoenix could potentially access at its height.

Originally posted by leonidas


@zop--yeah, that's one of the issues i referenced. and the PF went on to (arguably) destroy the universe in another issue. you're right though, non-canon (i think that was the same issue she crushed the goblin queen....?) but still, imo, telling as relates to the power phoenix could potentially access at its height.

There is also this. Rachel vs Shadow King. Shadow King at the time became the avatar of unnamed abstract forces. But it serves to show what the Phoenix Force can do or endow.

https://s10.postimg.org/hz3hb0wkl/xtf3_p26_27.jpg

Phoenix is probably around Adult Franklin Richards level, considering the two created pocket Universes. They would have a difficult time fighting 4 Celestials. That said, Dormammu stomps both of them.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes, I realize this a What If and hence not canon. Originally posted by zopzop
Again, these don't help the PF because they all from alternate realities. True. But then again, the PF is a multiversal force -- it has avatars scattered across the multiverse. We actually saw some of its multiversal alternates when Psylocke and Rachel traveled to the WHR:
http://i.imgur.com/5tv5eMH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/a2dWNQQ.jpg

As well as when Vulcan traveled there:
http://i.imgur.com/ELWK2bN.png

That is important because in Marvel, What-Ifs are officially recognized as alternate universes that exist within the larger canon multiverse. The Vulcan instance further helps confirm this, because a few of the other Watchers specifically mentioned consulting with Uatu during his rampage.

So I suppose an argument could be made that the feats you posted are canon to the PF itself on *some* level. Not saying I necessarily agree, but the logic holds some degree of merit, imo. The Phoenix is an odd bird in that regard(pun totally intended.)

Originally posted by Galan007
True. But then again, the PF is a multiversal force -- it has avatars scattered across the multiverse. We actually saw some of its multiversal alternates when Psylocke and Rachel traveled to the WHR:
http://i.imgur.com/5tv5eMH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/a2dWNQQ.jpg

As well as when Vulcan traveled there:
http://i.imgur.com/ELWK2bN.png

That is important because in Marvel, What-Ifs are officially recognized as alternate universes that exist within the larger canon multiverse. The Vulcan instance further helps confirm this, because a few of the other Watchers specifically mentioned consulting with Uatu during his rampage.

So I suppose an argument could be made that the feats you posted are canon to the PF itself on *some* level. Not saying I necessarily agree, but the logic holds some degree of merit, imo. The Phoenix is an odd bird in that regard(pun totally intended.)

i made a similar argument at one time regarding the multiversal nature of the PF--or maybe gs made it and i supported it? lol either way, i agree. i haven't posted any actual support for the PF in the thread. i was gonna wait a bit and see what others thought. i am surprised though at the lack of respect the force seems to be getting so maybe this weekend (to take a break from *&^%$#@ report cards) i'll post some stuff. problem is, MOST PF stuff has already been posted and argued add nauseum. the theory you brought up isn't one most know though, so thanks for chiming in with it.

and you're right, it is hard, and notoriously difficult to gauge since its showings are all over the place. that's why i was specifically limiting it to its highest incarnations and feats.

Originally posted by leonidas
and you're right, it is hard, and notoriously difficult to gauge since its showings are all over the place. that's why i was specifically limiting it to its highest incarnations and feats.
But in it's defense there's massive context behind a lot of those low showings.

a) Jean Grey Phoenix - Keep in mind right after the M'kraan Crystal incident, Jean subconsciously set up psychic circuit breakers to severely limit her power. So this covers the Magneto fight, the Proteus fight, etc.. They were in place all the way up to the point where she became Dark Phoenix. This was straight up stated on panel.

b) Rachel Grey - She PURPOSELY limited herself while using the power because she didn't want to lose control. This was also stated on panel.

Originally posted by zopzop
But in it's defense there's massive context behind a lot of those low showings.

a) Jean Grey Phoenix - Keep in mind right after the M'kraan Crystal incident, Jean subconsciously set up psychic circuit breakers to severely limit her power. So this covers the Magneto fight, the Proteus fight, etc.. They were in place all the way up to the point where she became Dark Phoenix. This was straight up stated on panel.

b) Rachel Grey - She PURPOSELY limited herself while using the power because she didn't want to lose control. This was also stated on panel.

lol

never figured you'd be on the PF side of things. course, you did say she'd lose to mephisto. but yeah, there is usually quite a bit of context behind MOST of her/its low showings. even rachel, limited as she was, had some great feats to her name.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

never figured you'd be on the PF side of things.
Just trying to be fair and put things in context.


I was assuming we were using the current PF, Galan corrected me.

PS did you see my scans from various What Ifs where the PF destroyed a universe?

Originally posted by zopzop

Just trying to be fair and put things in context.


I was assuming we were using the current PF, Galan corrected me.

PS did you see my scans from various What Ifs where the PF destroyed a universe?

yeah--way to steal my thunder. sneer

like we've both said repeatedly though, it IS what if. still, if you subscribe to galan's notion of the PF being a multiversal entity, in....any fashion, then it shouldn't matter that they are what if feats. i really do believe the PF is well above the likes of odin and the like. the vishanti are interesting and very hard to gauge themselves, so just how far the PF could get here really is unclear still in my mind.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah--way to steal my thunder. sneer

like we've both said repeatedly though, it IS what if. still, if you subscribe to galan's notion of the PF being a multiversal entity, in....any fashion, then it shouldn't matter that they are what if feats. i really do believe the PF is well above the likes of odin and the like. the vishanti are interesting and very hard to gauge themselves, so just how far the PF could get here really is unclear still in my mind.
True. One of the things in the PF's favor in 616 reality are the events that took place in Excalibur 25. Galactus tried wiping out the PF and all the stars in the universe died. Death, Roma, and the Watcher interceded on it's behalf and explained that it was a vital part of creation. Galactus then said the PF can 'obliterate an entire cosmos' :
https://s12.postimg.org/43zcl8ksp/Excalibur_025_20_jpg_original.jpg
That right there states it's AT LEAST universal (and vital at that).

IMHO, if the PF really is on par with the abstracts it clears (we saw what Death did during Thanos Imperative).

Originally posted by zopzop
True. One of the things in the PF's favor in 616 reality are the events that took place in Excalibur 25. Galactus tried wiping out the PF and all the stars in the universe died. Death, Roma, and the Watcher interceded on it's behalf and explained that it was a vital part of creation. Galactus then said the PF can 'obliterate an entire cosmos' :
https://s12.postimg.org/43zcl8ksp/Excalibur_025_20_jpg_original.jpg
That right there states it's AT LEAST universal (and vital at that).

IMHO, if the PF really is on par with the abstracts it clears (we saw what Death did during Thanos Imperative).

i wouldn't personally put it in the realm of the higher abstract beings. it couldn't take eternity for example. the argument could be made i guess though that any force capable of destroying a universe is greater than said universe.... getting pretty far down the road of speculation though. it really can't be denied that it has had some lesser moments. even being trapped in the earth as it was, being wounded multiple times.... def not abstract to me, though its ROLE may be the equal to the abstracts. function=/=power though.

i feel like you could be right though--it is possible it clears. it would be interesting to see if shuma could devour it or absorb it. it would at least make for a cool battle i think.

Originally posted by leonidas
i wouldn't personally put it in the realm of the higher abstract beings. it couldn't take eternity for example. the argument could be made i guess though that any force capable of destroying a universe is greater than said universe.... getting pretty far down the road of speculation though. it really can't be denied that it has had some lesser moments. even being trapped in the earth as it was, being wounded multiple times.... def not abstract to me, though its ROLE may be the equal to the abstracts. function=/=power though.

Yeah I get what your saying. Here though, Death seemed to imply the PF is it's opposing force and an abstract/concept like Death :
https://s21.postimg.org/7ykgftcb7/page11.jpg
"The sum and substance of all that lives".

Wouldn't that imply it's at least abstract level?

^^ Nah.

I'll be back.

Originally posted by "Id"


https://s10.postimg.org/hz3hb0wkl/xtf3_p26_27.jpg
In this scan it states she wields a force that can reshape creation.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah I get what your saying. Here though, Death seemed to imply the PF is it's opposing force and an abstract/concept like Death :
https://s21.postimg.org/7ykgftcb7/page11.jpg
"The sum and substance of all that lives".

Wouldn't that imply it's at least abstract level?

hmm, i think not tbh. the abstracts ARE their concept. ie--if eternity dies the universe dies with him. when death died, no one could die. i don't think we could say that if the PF was killed, all life would end. it may have been implied when galactus was going to drain rachel and the stars dimmed... still, that doesn't quite seem enough for me to elevate the pf to abstract levels.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i think not tbh. the abstracts ARE their concept. ie--if eternity dies the universe dies with him. when death died, no one could die. i don't think we could say that if the PF was killed, all life would end. it may have been implied when galactus was going to drain rachel and the stars dimmed... still, that doesn't quite seem enough for me to elevate the pf to abstract levels.
But that's what was taking place.
From that ONE page in Excalibur 25 a LOT was going on :

A) The stars didn't dim, they went out. They were extinguished.............across the universe.
B) Galactus straight up said the PF can "obliterate an entire cosmos".
C) Death confirmed this and stated it's part of the natural cycle.
D) The Watcher said without the PF, Galactus would doom the universe to 'ultimate extinction' it would be 'an infinite void wherein exists not the smallest potential for life".

^^ ... "Life" that needs "stars" to survive.

Galactus, like Death and Uatu, amongst a host of other "life" would go on just fine without that PF.

These beings are self-sufficient and do not need "stars" to exist.

Also, the Cosmic Abstract hierarchy has a pecking order:

LT
Abraxas
Eternity-Infinity-Oblivion-Death-Entropy
Chaos-Order
Love-Hate
PF

The first concept is Oblivion, which is the "nothing" in the beginning.
Then "space" (Infinity) is born with/in "time" (Eternity)
then this "space-time" is given structure via "chaos & order" and balance via Galactus,
the balance the In-betweener provides between chaos & order perpetuates the building blocks of life,
then life gives rise to the first emotions which are Love and Hate,
from this balance of love and hate "passion" (negative and positive) emerges in the form of the PF.

This all happens very quickly in successions one after the other.

I'll be back.

Originally posted by zopzop
But that's what was taking place.
From that ONE page in Excalibur 25 a LOT was going on :

A) The stars didn't dim, they went out. They were extinguished.............across the universe.
B) Galactus straight up said the PF can "obliterate an entire cosmos".
C) Death confirmed this and stated it's part of the natural cycle.
D) The Watcher said without the PF, Galactus would doom the universe to 'ultimate extinction' it would be 'an infinite void wherein exists not the smallest potential for life".

that seems to imply that life would die without stars though. maybe. potential life is interesting though, no doubt but i still see a difference between abstracts and the force. it's also been said to be rebirth and was said to be the sum total of all the psionic energy in the universe/multiverse as well...that's too many hats for me to definitively say it is an abstract embodiment of life itself. i see where you're getting the idea though. /shrug

@mrm: huh? abraxas came before eternity? where'd that come from? i thought he was born OF eternity....

Originally posted by leonidas

it's also been said to be the sum total of all the psionic energy in the universe/multiverse
... only in a wiki bio.
Originally posted by leonidas

@mrm: huh? abraxas came before eternity?
The 'pecking order" mini list I posted concerns power-levels.

The history of creation I also included does not include Abraxas, nor Entropy, which are by-products of Eternity/Infinity.
Originally posted by leonidas

i thought he was born OF eternity....
That's correct old friend.

There needs to be something to destroy, before the "concept of destruction" can be imagined.

Same goes with Entropy, there has to be a "beginning" before there can be an "end."

Originally posted by Mr Master
... only in a wiki bio.

hmm? i know it's stated here:

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/56904/1742169-what_is_the_phoenix_force_01.jpg

but i thought it came more directly from a comic somewhere to....



ah. ok then. not sure i agree with it, but that doesn't matter. i thought you were speaking sequentially.

so then how far do you think the force gets? does it clear the field iyo?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also, the Cosmic Abstract hierarchy has a pecking order:

LT
Abraxas
Eternity-Infinity-Oblivion-Death-Entropy
Chaos-Order
Love-Hate
PF

I don't disagree with this, although I would put Love/Hate on the same level as Order/Chaos (like Starlin did).
https://s12.postimg.org/pvglx69kp/bba314c3b4846c2e67e3fea906ecc75b.jpg

EDITed to include image.

^
Originally posted by leonidas

hmm? i know it's stated here:

but i thought it came more directly from a comic somewhere to....
I don't know where that's from,

... but that's never been mentioned in an actual story.
Originally posted by leonidas

ah. ok then. not sure i agree with it
That mini hierarchy is unquestionable concerning the cats I included.
Originally posted by leonidas

so then how far do you think the force gets? does it clear the field iyo?
Imo, since her opponents are at their "peak" ... they all beat her.

The PF's essentiality doesn't necessarily = to power.

The whole "stars" dying thingy, meh, Galactus dies, the whole freakin Multiverse dies.

Captain Universe dies, and all life in the universe dies.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^

I don't know where that's from,

... but that's never been mentioned in an actual story.

maybe. the scan is from a tpb collection of excalibur and was written by alan davis, writer of excalibur.



well, i guess it could be right if we're using old info, but galactus easily wrecked chaos/order (who i'd also place in the same tier as order/chaos) and i don't see him on the list. i'd argue abraxas isn't 'above' eternity either, rather he's simply a different aspect. abraxas isn't above oblivion or death imo, so i wouldn't put him above eternity either even though his function allows him to merge universes.



obviously i disagree, but

Originally posted by leonidas

but galactus easily wrecked chaos/order (who i'd also place in the same tier as order/chaos)

and i don't see him on the list.
I did not consider that change. I'm also not sure how long this incarnation of Galactus will last.

I'm willing to bet this is a temporary thing.
Big G is a cat who's involved in many stories, at that power-level, he's dull, like any other,
only so much you can do with him.

So, in that perspective, I see G going back to his roots in the near future.

But for now, if let's say, it would remain this way, then yes, He would obviously be above.
Originally posted by leonidas

i'd argue abraxas isn't 'above' eternity either, rather he's simply a different aspect.
abraxas isn't above oblivion or death imo,

so i wouldn't put him above eternity either even though his function allows him to merge universes.
Abraxas' function is to destroy all creation, the omniverse.

In the end, all that's left, is him, God over oblivion.

No UN, this is exactly what happens.

Originally posted by leonidas
maybe. the scan is from a tpb collection of excalibur and was written by alan davis, writer of excalibur.


Looks legit to me.

There is an Excalibur letter's page where the editor mentions that the PF is the creation force of all realities of the multiverse, are we supposed to believe that as well despite everything else (which includes the Excalibur series itself) contradicts that? Not to mention the several times where Phoenix was "stated" to be the creator/destroyer of all reality? Also, several issues prior to that Galactus showing Rachel "strained her powers to the limit" just to contain a mini nuke. Just something to consider.

On a side note, i don't recall the Abraxas arc ever stating or even implying that the omniverse was at stake... Did i miss something?

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't disagree with this, although I would put Love/Hate on the same level as Order/Chaos (like Starlin did).
https://s12.postimg.org/pvglx69kp/bba314c3b4846c2e67e3fea906ecc75b.jpg

EDITed to include image. That bottom row is so very wrong.

Celestials on the same level as "Earth" gods? Galactus likewise. Galactus was originally the other side of Eternity before new characters were added in between but not to lower him THAT much. Chaos and Order you can make a case for since they created IB and he fought Galactus once, but Love and Hate...they empowered some princess once to maaaybe Silver surfer level (stretch) so she could get his attention. They have no feats to suggest they're that high

Originally posted by operator616
There is an Excalibur letter's page where the editor mentions that the PF is the creation force of all realities of the multiverse, are we supposed to believe that as well despite everything else (which includes the Excalibur series itself) contradicts that? Not to mention the several times where Phoenix was "stated" to be the creator/destroyer of all reality? Also, several issues prior to that Galactus showing Rachel "strained her powers to the limit" just to contain a mini nuke. Just something to consider.

On a side note, i don't recall the Abraxas arc ever stating or even implying that the omniverse was at stake... Did i miss something?

meh, that's always the issue arguing the PF. there are tons of low showings. plot device will be plot device. but they happened and are hard to argue away. below the level of user incompetence though i think the force itself has been pretty firmly established as one of the most powerful forces in the universe (and depending on what you're willing to credit, perhaps the multiverse). rachel had dozens of conflicting showings, but (a) her highs are pretty damn good (her battle with necrom would have destroyed the universe), and, (b) i'm not talking about rachel's use of the PF, i'm talking about the force itself and the potential power it possess. rachel was crazy--inconsistent and imposed limits on herself much of the time.... that's why i specified only the highest showings to avoid the nonsense that would ensue otherwise. as far as accepting the narration--narration and other characters have been pretty consistent in describing the force over the years. but believe what you will i guess. the pf will always be controversial and difficult to gauge.



eh? the omniverse is quite a leap, as is the supposition that he would rule what was left over both death and/or oblivion. i would disagree with that completely. he was born of eternity--why would anyone consider him above him...? i've never been convinced he's definitively above galactus. he certainly didn't come off looking superior when g made his return--even went so far as to point out he had an ace up his sleeve (the un), pretty clearly implying he didn't feel too positive himself regarding his chances against 616 galactus. and obviously he also couldn't resist the UN, a power dismissed effortlessly by magus with his incomplete ig

he'd def be much further down my list.

Originally posted by leonidas
meh, that's always the issue arguing the PF. there are tons of low showings. plot device will be plot device. but they happened and are hard to argue away. below the level of user incompetence though i think the force itself has been pretty firmly established as one of the most powerful forces in the universe (and depending on what you're willing to credit, perhaps the multiverse). rachel had dozens of conflicting showings, but (a) her highs are pretty damn good (her battle with necrom would have destroyed the universe), and, (b) i'm not talking about rachel's use of the PF, i'm talking about the force itself and the potential power it possess. rachel was crazy--inconsistent and imposed limits on herself much of the time.... that's why i specified only the highest showings to avoid the nonsense that would ensue otherwise. as far as accepting the narration--narration and other characters have been pretty consistent in describing the force over the years. but believe what you will i guess. the pf will always be controversial and difficult to gauge.



I disagree.

In Excalibur #34 letter's page, the editor said that the Phoenix is the creation force behind not one, but all realities. Later in issue #51 of the same series, we see Phoenix being born from the big bang. Contradiction.

In FF #522, Reed equates the PF to the Big bang, yet 9 issues later in FF #531-532, we never see the PF being associated with the big bang in any way. Another Contradiction.

Just like in an issue of Ultimate X-Men it's stated that the Phoenix Force is the force behind the creation of the universe, yet later it's dissociated from the "force that created the Earth" and gets imprisoned/contained inside of the Earth. Yet another Contradiction.

Also, originally the Phoenix was conceived as a multiversal entity existing across the multiverse simultaneously, which is why we never saw an alternate version of Rachel as opposed to the other members of the Excalibur. This all changed later on.

Apart from all that, i recall at least three instances off the top of my head (from three different books, UXM First foursaken, X-Men The end, and X-Men True Friends) where the Phoenix force was stated to be the spark that ignites creation and the fire that consumes it. Needless to say, this is most definitely not true.

You call that consistent in describing the nature of the PF? Seems to me that PF has a lot of hyperbole surrounding it.

Also, i dont recall the Necrom battle being anything other than solar system level, the universe destroying part was just a statement as always. I dont remember Rachel being that impressive tbh. And yes she has other lows of course but i referenced this one in particular because it shows a clear limit.

Originally posted by leonidas

eh? the omniverse is quite a leap,
True, the actual term "omniverse " wasn't stated,
but I'm of the opinion that the "multiverse" in this story, was a term defining "The Everything."

Roma is after all the "omniversal guardian" ... she knows reality on an omniversal scale.

Roma stated, the Eternity in this story, contained:

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t/30119952_AB4.jpg

"All that Ever was, Ever is or Ever will be"

----------------------------------------

Roma stated, if Abraxas wins:

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t/30119951_AB2.jpg

"All of Time will be lost to us." (herself included)

----------------------------------------

So, that's my justification.
Originally posted by leonidas

as is the supposition that he would rule what was left over both death and/or oblivion.

i would disagree with that completely.
I understand your doubt my old friend, but you know me, I only make direct claims when I have support.

This is the implication we got from Abraxas' bio:

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t/30119950_AB.jpg

It makes sense, I mean he was on his way to destroying everything on panel until he was disturpted by the UN.

... and ONLY ... the UN (Ultimate Nullifier)

In the story it was made clear:

ONLY the Ultimate Nullifier > Abraxas: (that's why the FF took a journey across the multiverse looking for it)

......................................................................................


Roma (Omniversal Guardian) ... On Panel:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792507_Ab4.jpg

Roma: "It will be a weapon of unimaginable power that will win this day"

......................................................................................


Here Galactus says it, and Reed realizes this truth:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792508_Ab5.jpg

Galactus: "But this time, this Day can end only one way"

Reed: "Yes .... God help me, I can see that now"
Originally posted by leonidas

he was born of eternity--

why would anyone consider him above him...?
Yur jokin right?
Originally posted by leonidas

i've never been convinced he's definitively above galactus.
he certainly didn't come off looking superior when g made his return--
even went so far as to point out he had an ace up his sleeve (the un),
pretty clearly implying he didn't feel too positive himself regarding his chances against 616 galactus.
Abraxas jobbed when 616 G first appeared.

The "ace up the sleeve" line has nothing to do with Abraxas ever intending to use the UN on G or anyone for that matter.
Abraxas only wanted the UN so it could not be used on him. That's what he was referring to with the "ace up the sleeve" line.
In other words, 'now that I have the ONLY thing that can beat me. there's no way you can win.'

In that scene:

Abraxas clearly mentioned how he was going to kill 616 G just like he killed his other selves across the multiverse.

Abraxas didn't have the UN ever in any other universe, so .. we know he killed other Galactuses under his own power.
Originally posted by leonidas

and obviously he also couldn't resist the UN, a power dismissed effortlessly by magus with his incomplete ig
Magus and his incomplete IG still made him a monster.

Also, those are two different arcs written by two different writers separated by over a decade of time.

Also, the way you phrase it: "he couldn't resist the UN a power dismissed effortlessly by magus" ...

Since you're merging feats as relevant to each other ...

would you agree then?

... that Magus with the incomplete IG
dismissed effortlessly a power
that can instantaneously erase
and then re-create from nothingness
the entire trans-infinite Multiverse? (perhaps omniverse for that matter)

Hey, Mr. Master, which handbook is from the bio?

So Master is again paddling his BS, eh?

Originally posted by leonidas
meh, that's always the issue arguing the PF. there are tons of low showings. plot device will be plot device. but they happened and are hard to argue away. below the level of user incompetence though i think the force itself has been pretty firmly established as one of the most powerful forces in the universe (and depending on what you're willing to credit, perhaps the multiverse). rachel had dozens of conflicting showings, but (a) her highs are pretty damn good (her battle with necrom would have destroyed the universe), and, (b) i'm not talking about rachel's use of the PF, i'm talking about the force itself and the potential power it possess. rachel was crazy--inconsistent and imposed limits on herself much of the time.... that's why i specified only the highest showings to avoid the nonsense that would ensue otherwise. as far as accepting the narration--narration and other characters have been pretty consistent in describing the force over the years. but believe what you will i guess. the pf will always be controversial and difficult to gauge.



eh? the omniverse is quite a leap, as is the supposition that he would rule what was left over both death and/or oblivion. i would disagree with that completely. he was born of eternity--why would anyone consider him above him...? i've never been convinced he's definitively above galactus. he certainly didn't come off looking superior when g made his return--even went so far as to point out he had an ace up his sleeve (the un), pretty clearly implying he didn't feel too positive himself regarding his chances against 616 galactus. and obviously he also couldn't resist the UN, a power dismissed effortlessly by magus with his incomplete ig

he'd def be much further down my list.




Don't mean to barge into your debate with Mr master
But the power of the UN actually varies depending on the mental capacity of the user plus it appeared to be his kryptonite.

Originally posted by operator616
I disagree.

In Excalibur #34 letter's page, the editor said that the Phoenix is the creation force behind not one, but all realities. Later in issue #51 of the same series, we see Phoenix being born from the big bang. Contradiction.

pf is supposed to be reborn at every big bang. who is that a contradiction...?



again, if reed said it, why would they need to show it? you wanted what, a giant phoenix in the scene?



depends on whether the author was assuming different forces. for instance gaea is said to be the originator of the force that allowed sentient life on earth. thor followers would claim it was a different force that created the earth. i don't find that any more conflicting than any of the other cosmological contradictions in marvel. we've seen beings create universes but no sign of a new eternity being born. so eternity isn't associated with the birth of a universe either?



which never made sense nor is it a contradiction. the pf can remain the same, but why wouldn't the host exist in other fashions? especially when in an alternate reality she never became one with the force?



again, you seem to want a big bird to appear in every case a universe is made or unmade....that would never happen, especially given the divorce between x-men and the rest of marvel that existed for so many years. the x-men mythos was held almost completely separate for years and years. doesn't make it less legit. the separation of the x-men from the herd is what led to many of the contradictions you tried citing.



cool. i disagree. characters no less than reed, roma, galactus, the watcher and death have all said essentially the same thing regarding the pf and its relationship to the NATURAL cycle of creation and rebirth (how often have we seen universes NATURALLY end and restart in comics?) the pf was even established as having played a role in galactus's origin, showing the evolution of both the idea of the pf and the breaking of some of the barriers between the x-world and the rest of marvel. anyway, simply brushing off the words of some of marvel's greatest cosmics doesn't make much sense to me. especially in lieu of using the incompetence of the hosts and/or plot as a measure for lessening the force itself.



again, you're simply dismissing rachel's words like you dismiss everyone else's. your mind seems pretty made up so what's the point? i've also specified this is the pf at the highest levels shown in comics--rachel is NOT the host to use (if a host is best used at all) to demonstrate what i'm trying to get at in this thread. i absolutely believe the pf has been consistently regarding, if not always consistently depicted in its various incarnations.

Originally posted by leonidas

characters no less than reed, roma, galactus, the watcher and death have all said essentially the same thing regarding the pf and its relationship to the NATURAL cycle of creation and rebirth
Hyperbole.

We've seen (On Panel) the "spark" of creation that initiates the Big Bang in action ...

NO PF of any kind in the vicinity or even hinted from afar.

We've seen creation (the prime Multiverse) end naturally
and restart naturally in its elf-perpetuating death/rebirth cycle ...
... NO PF of any kind in the vicinity or even hunted from afar.
Originally posted by leonidas

how often have we seen universes NATURALLY end and restart in comics?
Captain Marvel #5-6 ... Entropy story line.

The natural death of creation was depicted, along with the actual true natural Big Bang.

... NO PF of any kind in the vicinity or even hinted from afar.
Originally posted by leonidas

the pf was even established as having played a role in galactus's origin.
100% pure bull shit! ... not you old friend, the idea.

Galactus' origin has been artistically portrayed at-least 7 times on panel ...

... NO PF of any kind in the vicinity or even hinted from afar.

Im sure opr has the rest.

Originally posted by Mr Master
True, the actual term "omniverse " wasn't stated,
but I'm of the opinion that the "multiverse" in this story, was a term defining "The Everything."

Roma is after all the "omniversal guardian" ... she knows reality on an omniversal scale.

Roma stated, the Eternity in this story, contained:

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t/30119952_AB4.jpg

"All that Ever was, Ever is or Ever will be"

----------------------------------------

Roma stated, if Abraxas wins:

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t/30119951_AB2.jpg

"All of Time will be lost to us." (herself included)

----------------------------------------

So, that's my justification.

i know your justification, i just don't know why you switched terms. omniverse sounds more....grandiose? it was the multiverse that was collapsing. no need to say more than that.



did you just say you have 'direct' proof then claim an IMPLICATION based on a BIO?

beyond that, that bio makes absolutely no sense and seems to completely contradict the role abraxas appeared to have been assigned. he was (apparently) going to destroy the multiverse. where in any of that arc was it said that he was attempting to collapse the multiverse into his dream of one single perfect universe? he also wasn't erasing universes. i thought it clear he was merging them, breaking down walls. if he erased a universe in that arc i don't recall it and would love to see.... that bio literally goes against nearly every single thing that was shown in that arc.



roma's narration is dramatic. but she seems to know as little about the UN as she does about the PF.




not sure what you're trying to prove here. the UN was needed and it was used. but we had an idea before hand what it could do. this use of the UN is wildly outside it's typical level of power. reed has also been wrong on many occasions and prone to hyperbole. again, see the PF. (i know it sounds like sour grapes the way i bring that up--it isn't. i'm just illustrating how easy it can be to dismiss the words of characters. no offense intended to either of you.)



noooo..... if he was born of the power of eternity, why would he be MORE powerful? i've always seen him as a type of cancer that exists within eternity. just because eternity has no defense against him (a rule apparently established at the birth of creation) doesn't mean he is necessarily more powerful than eternity. or death. or oblivion. in fact, we have no clue at all all he would rate in relation to either death or eternity.



jobbed? damn, i should have used that more in my response to op. anyway, i don't see it as jobbing at all.



sure he said that, but....we still never saw him kill any galactus, nor did we see him fight galactus. again, he sure didn't appear to be all that confident against him, and jobbing aside, we really didn't see him battle anyone of note. were he actually next to lt in power, pretty sure he wouldn't have had to show any fear of galactus. he probably would have been able to get the un back as well. it's like galactus stole his lunch money and he couldn't do anything about it. you can call pis, but like dismissing characters' words, that is too easy. imo.



mentioned. didn't.



no, actually we don't. it's not an illogical assumption, but off-panel is off-panel. we also have no idea how powerful these other galactus's were. perhaps he simply caught them when they were weak and getting ready to feed. we have no idea since we never saw it happen, even once. given how he reacted to 616 galactus, it is also not illogical to suppose there might have been some context to those defeats.



sure. how can it be disagreed with? which would lead to the assumption that magus w/ig>>>abraxas. there are quite a few abc logic trains that can be followed from that supposition....

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hyperbole.

irony?



again, you want a big bird to show up? what can i say? there are so many references to the pf and creation that dismissing it makes no sense at all.



cool, but, as you've told countless people, sounds like you have a problem with marvel. you can dislike it all you want--we don't make the rules. hand-waving the idea away doesn't make it go away or make it less true. /shrug

i trust you can see where the whole picking/choosing/dismissing/hand-waving can be a problem in both directions.

Originally posted by backup
Hey, Mr. Master, which handbook is from the bio? It's from Fantastic Four - Universal Guide (2007).

Lets just dismiss handbook all together. If we can not except a TBP as a source material, than why allow an Official guide.

Originally posted by leonidas
pf is supposed to be reborn at every big bang. who is that a contradiction...?


The editor claimed that PF is one of the creative forces of the multiverse, yet later on it is born from the big bang. If it was indeed a creative force it should be the one who initiates the big bang not be born from it.

How is this not contradictory?

Originally posted by leonidas

again, if reed said it, why would they need to show it? you wanted what, a giant phoenix in the scene?


Well yes. Either way, do you actually believe that the PF = big bang? But wait.

You're saying that the PF is the psionic energy of the multiverse (your own scan)

yet its also the big bang (according to Reed),

yet its also born from the big bang (according to Excalibur),

yet it is also the spark that initiates the big bang (according to various others).

And all of this is not contradictory to you? Seriously?

Originally posted by leonidas

depends on whether the author was assuming different forces. for instance gaea is said to be the originator of the force that allowed sentient life on earth. thor followers would claim it was a different force that created the earth. i don't find that any more conflicting than any of the other cosmological contradictions in marvel. we've seen beings create universes but no sign of a new eternity being born. so eternity isn't associated with the birth of a universe either?


That story about the elder gods is actually pretty consistent and has been mentioned in at least three titles that i recall of (Thor, Silver Surfer, Dr Strange).The pantheon creation stories were mostly present in the early comics only (up until the 80s), after that they were forgotten and some were even retconned to be false memories implanted by Odin about the creation myths. Although admittedly they were still referenced later on in the thor mythos but they were just limited to that, and not mentioned or even hinted in other titles.

We've seen Eternity depicted several times with the creation of the universe, we've never seen PF even once, see the difference? Also, Eternity is the universe so it isn't contradictory when we don't see Eternity in humanoid form on panel when a creation story is depicted. Same thing cannot be said of the PF because it's a goddamn fire bird.

Originally posted by leonidas

which never made sense nor is it a contradiction. the pf can remain the same, but why wouldn't the host exist in other fashions? especially when in an alternate reality she never became one with the force?


Because back in the day there was only one phoenix force across the multiverse. So the PF can possess only one host in the multiverse and that host was Rachel at the time. And Rachel herself had no alternate versions across the multiverse (this has been confirmed time and time again).

Originally posted by leonidas

again, you seem to want a big bird to appear in every case a universe is made or unmade....that would never happen, especially given the divorce between x-men and the rest of marvel that existed for so many years. the x-men mythos was held almost completely separate for years and years. doesn't make it less legit. the separation of the x-men from the herd is what led to many of the contradictions you tried citing.

cool. i disagree. characters no less than reed, roma, galactus, the watcher and death have all said essentially the same thing regarding the pf and its relationship to the NATURAL cycle of creation and rebirth (how often have we seen universes NATURALLY end and restart in comics?) the pf was even established as having played a role in galactus's origin, showing the evolution of both the idea of the pf and the breaking of some of the barriers between the x-world and the rest of marvel. anyway, simply brushing off the words of some of marvel's greatest cosmics doesn't make much sense to me. especially in lieu of using the incompetence of the hosts and/or plot as a measure for lessening the force itself.


Why do you keep talking about x-men being dissociated from the rest of Marvel? This applies to every title in the early comics era, both DC and Marvel, they were much more self-contained than comics nowadays obviously. And im not sure how that is relevant anyway given that the Phoenix force concept wasn't introduced until the mid 80s, a time when crossovers were ubiquitous. So there shouldn't be an excuse why PF isn't depicted because of X-Men's dissociation from rest of the titles.

Originally posted by leonidas

again, you're simply dismissing rachel's words like you dismiss everyone else's. your mind seems pretty made up so what's the point? i've also specified this is the pf at the highest levels shown in comics--rachel is NOT the host to use (if a host is best used at all) to demonstrate what i'm trying to get at in this thread. i absolutely believe the pf has been consistently regarding, if not always consistently depicted in its various incarnations.

My mind isn't made up at all and i could say the same thing about you. If there wasn't so much contradiction and hyperbole surrounding the PF i wouldn't be dismissing her words. But fair enough on the rest part.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's from Fantastic Four - Universal Guide (2007).

Thanks, Galan. I think that bio it's from Fantastic Four - Ultimate Guide cause is pretty similar:

http://imgur.com/a/I3roT

By the way, the Ultimate Nullifier restoring the universe or the multiverse in the Abraxas arc?

In 2005 universes are mentioned:

http://imgur.com/a/baiqW

And in 2006 the handbook says universe:

http://imgur.com/a/sCF8x

Originally posted by operator616
The editor claimed that PF is one of the creative forces of the multiverse, yet later on it is born from the big bang. If it was indeed a creative force it should be the one who initiates the big bang not be born from it.

How is this not contradictory? The Phoenix could kamikaze/detonate itself to unleash the big bang, and then later remake itself from those same energies... "Rise from the ashes", if you will. Similar to what we saw when Lucifer stabbed/detonated Michael, and then remade him from the creation-energy he just unleashed.

Not saying I agree or disagree, but it certainly could happen, and would not facilitate a contradiction.

Originally posted by backup
Thanks, Galan. I think that bio it's from Fantastic Four - Ultimate Guide cause is pretty similar:

http://imgur.com/a/I3roT The Ultimate and Universal Guides have the exact same entry for Abraxas -- literally word for word.

Originally posted by Galan007
The Phoenix could kamikaze/detonate itself to unleash the big bang, and then later remake itself from those same energies... "Rise from the ashes", if you will. Similar to what we saw when Lucifer stabbed/detonated Michael, and then remade him from the creation-energy he just unleashed.

Not saying I agree or disagree, but it certainly could happen, and would not facilitate a contradiction.


It's a possibility but id think the details you're describing would have been mentioned if that was actually the case. Either way, there are other contradictions that i mentioned.

Originally posted by operator616
The editor claimed that PF is one of the creative forces of the multiverse, yet later on it is born from the big bang. If it was indeed a creative force it should be the one who initiates the big bang not be born from it.

How is this not contradictory?

Well yes. Either way, do you actually believe that the PF = big bang? But wait.

You're saying that the PF is the psionic energy of the multiverse (your own scan)

yet its also the big bang (according to Reed),

yet its also born from the big bang (according to Excalibur),

yet it is also the spark that initiates the big bang (according to various others).

And all of this is not contradictory to you? Seriously?

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/97919/2042378-1780650_1330036_scan5tv0_super_super.jpg

i'm sure you've seen the scan already, probably a number of times (maybe it's the one you're referencing). the reason i show it is because i think it clarifies some of the contradictions you're citing. in the scene reed is conflating the 'energies of creation' (the big bang) with the phoenix force. if that's true (and it has been stated many times over by many characters) i don't see any reason why we would need to see a fire bird at all--anymore than we would need to see eternity's body taking shape. the energy responsible for starting things off IS the phoenix energy--or at least it is initially since it is said repeatedly to be the 'spark' that sets things in motion.

i always thought that bit about the pf being born WITH the universe was pretty clear too. it existed in the prior universe, it's rebirth is the spark that gets creation going then it takes shape and grows as the universe does, since it is also an embodiment of life.



that sounds convoluted even to me, but it makes sense, and takes into account most of the current info about the force. when a universe dies and a new bog bang occurs it is again the force that gets the ball rolling. cyclical, again, as has been stated numerous times in numerous texts.

oh, and the bit about the psionic energy? i grant THAT bit is confusing. i could try and force fit it, but it really never should have been described as such.



sure, but it is still contradictory. was it in ragnarok where the nine worlds origin was again reiterated? the origin of the nine worlds according to the norse gods has nothing to do with the big bang or eternity. that might seem reasonable until we realize midgard is part of the nine worlds and earth is part of midgard--in fact our whole universe IS midgard. now THAT is a contradiction....



and reed has stated it is simply the energy of creation. as i said, i don't think a bird is required.



k, but that was back in the day. the pf has been subject to retcons like everything else in marvel. imo it's still easy to make a case that the pf is a multiversal force, with avatars in different universes. maybe it didn't make sense for there to be one rachel before. doesn't matter though since that isn't the case anymore.



we'll disagree completely there i'm afraid. at the time the force was first introduced, the whole claremont era in fact, the x-men and their accompanying titles, were seen as almost separate entities from the other marvel titles. outside of the x-men, the force was almost never brought up, certainly not in the more cosmic titles (dr strange, ss, ff, avengers). because of that, the role of the pf was never included in any of the cosmological arcs that took place in those titles. that is no longer the case and so the force's role has become better defined. at least to my mind.



well, i'm not a phoenix hater if that's what you mean, but i'm hardly a fanboy of it either. i think what i've said is at least reasonable. i'm pretty set in my ways regarding the role of the force, what it does, (there have been just too many reliable narrators/characters describing its nature for me to question it) but its power level is still something i'm not completely comfortable finalizing. i legitimately don't know if the force could clear this. i think there is some reason to think so, but reasons to think otherwise as well. the pf is one of those cases where i don't think role and power necessarily match up.

what do you think the best single feat of the pf is?

Quick question, are the events in X-Men : The End canon? Cassandra Nova was about to do some serious damage with the PF in that mini series.

-------------------------------------

The PF died with everything else, and was then Re-Born in the Big Bang, just like everything else.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11716648_P.jpg

-------------------------------------

That's what the PF remembers, being born from the Big Bang:



http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11717484_P2.jpg

-------------------------------------

Cool, it fits perfectly with what her official handbook bio states.

It's the same shit every other Abstract/Concept remembers/knows ... and ... experiences likewise:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11717251_Concepts_survive_Big_Bang.jpg

=========================================


The recycling of Eternity-Infinity years prior ... oh yea, Big Bang style!

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11717052_Birth_of_the_Universe.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------


... more Big Bangs artistically illustrated and the PF again had nothing to do with it,

not even indirectly, heck, not even alluded as even remotely responsible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


The Big Bang via Sise-Neg aka Genesis:


http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129208_BB1.jpghttp://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129209_BB2.jpghttp://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129210_BB3.jpg


=========================================


The TRUE self perpetuating recycling of All That Is (Eternity-Infinity) ... On Panel, Big Bang occurring:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11716665_1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11716666_2.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11716667_3.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11716668_4.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11716669_5.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11716670_6.jpg


=========================================

=========================================


Thanos ... let loose the Big Bang:

http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129211_BB4.jpghttp://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129212_BB5.jpg


=========================================


The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring!

The real "SPARK" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring!

The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring!

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674168_2.jpg

......................................................................................


The Alien Entity/Reed created the "Spark" that ignites the Fires/Engines of Creation:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674169_3.jpg

(literally)

......................................................................................


And indeed, the Alien Entity even manipulated the "Spark" into motion:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674170_4.jpg

"Let there be Light ... let the Universe itself ... become"

......................................................................................

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674171_5.jpg


The Big Bang in the flesh (on panel actually depicted)

=========================================


The Universe's Big Bang birth and then the Multiverse's birth in Pak's vision:

http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129213_BB6.jpg
http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129214_BB7.jpg

=========================================


Starlin's portrayal of the Universe's birth how it Big Bangs into being:

http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129215_BB8.jpghttp://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129216_BB9.jpghttp://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129217_BB10.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
-------------------------------------

The PF died with everything else, and was then Re-Born in the Big Bang, just like everything else.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11716648_P.jpg

-------------------------------------

That's what the PF remembers, being born from the Big Bang:



http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11717484_P2.jpg

-------------------------------------

Cool, it fits perfectly with what her official handbook bio states.

It's the same shit every other Abstract/Concept remembers/knows ... and ... experiences likewise:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11717251_Concepts_survive_Big_Bang.jpg

This is no longer true.

We now know that the Phoenix Force predated 616 reality, as it is shown and explained that it battle the cosmic enity Le Bette Noir since the previous reality.

Originally posted by "Id"
We now know that the Phoenix Force predated 616 reality, as it is shown and explained that it battle the cosmic enity Le Bette Noir since the previous reality.
http://i.imgur.com/kDO6pkD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sU28d5L.jpg

Just wanted to add these scans from Uncanny X-Men 473. Uatu talking to the X-Men about the PF and First Fallen :
https://s10.postimg.org/tk8i415dx/watcher_lesson.jpg https://s10.postimg.org/grke43ts5/watcher_lesson_2.jpg

Couple of things worth mentioning :
a) He's scared of the First Fallen
b) The Watcher claims the PF is the fire that sparks creation and the fire that consumes it

Originally posted by leonidas
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/97919/2042378-1780650_1330036_scan5tv0_super_super.jpg

i'm sure you've seen the scan already, probably a number of times (maybe it's the one you're referencing). the reason i show it is because i think it clarifies some of the contradictions you're citing. in the scene reed is conflating the 'energies of creation' (the big bang) with the phoenix force. if that's true (and it has been stated many times over by many characters) i don't see any reason why we would need to see a fire bird at all--anymore than we would need to see eternity's body taking shape. the energy responsible for starting things off IS the phoenix energy--or at least it is initially since it is said repeatedly to be the 'spark' that sets things in motion.

i always thought that bit about the pf being born WITH the universe was pretty clear too. it existed in the prior universe, it's rebirth is the spark that gets creation going then it takes shape and grows as the universe does, since it is also an embodiment of life.



that sounds convoluted even to me, but it makes sense, and takes into account most of the current info about the force. when a universe dies and a new bog bang occurs it is again the force that gets the ball rolling. cyclical, again, as has been stated numerous times in numerous texts.

oh, and the bit about the psionic energy? i grant THAT bit is confusing. i could try and force fit it, but it really never should have been described as such.


You're basically summing up individual depictions together to fit it in with your view. What you're missing here is that these individual depictions don't seem to take into account each other. For example, the Excalibur scene where the PF is born from the big bang doesn't mention anything about the PF being a creative force, just that it is born from creation.

Anyway, this is an illustration of the full origins of the PF:

Originally posted by operator616
phoenix died along with everyone else in the universe (eternity included) and galen is the only survivor of the previous universe:

http://i.imgur.com/4bQ7sVg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QgDUHEJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9a69UrS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XlnfhhA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QGV4pQQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Jmk7Rc5.jpg

same story was retold in several other issues, however this one puts a bit emphasis on the phoenix unlike others.

2005 handbook, confirms that the phoenix died during the big bang and was reborn from it:

http://i.imgur.com/ZrsLu3P.jpg?1

2010 handbook, confirms this as well:

http://i.imgur.com/JvbYdtf.jpg?1


^^^


Originally posted by leonidas

sure, but it is still contradictory. was it in ragnarok where the nine worlds origin was again reiterated? the origin of the nine worlds according to the norse gods has nothing to do with the big bang or eternity. that might seem reasonable until we realize midgard is part of the nine worlds and earth is part of midgard--in fact our whole universe IS midgard. now THAT is a contradiction....



Yes Ragnarok. And Midgard is a synonym for Earth. But that aside, you're basically saying that Asgard's cosmology is contradictory, which means we can't be sure about the nature of it just like we can't be sure about the nature of the PF. Which just goes further to prove my point.

Originally posted by leonidas

we'll disagree completely there i'm afraid. at the time the force was first introduced, the whole claremont era in fact, the x-men and their accompanying titles, were seen as almost separate entities from the other marvel titles. outside of the x-men, the force was almost never brought up, certainly not in the more cosmic titles (dr strange, ss, ff, avengers). because of that, the role of the pf was never included in any of the cosmological arcs that took place in those titles. that is no longer the case and so the force's role has become better defined. at least to my mind.



?

The Phoenix force concept was introduced in the very titles that you're referencing; the major Jean Grey/Phoenix retcon happened in an Avengers/FF story.

Not to mention that even before Excalibur started, the mutant community already had two big crossovers under their belt, and Excalibur was involved in one in the very beginning of their series (Inferno).

Originally posted by leonidas

well, i'm not a phoenix hater if that's what you mean, but i'm hardly a fanboy of it either. i think what i've said is at least reasonable. i'm pretty set in my ways regarding the role of the force, what it does, (there have been just too many reliable narrators/characters describing its nature for me to question it) but its power level is still something i'm not completely comfortable finalizing. i legitimately don't know if the force could clear this. i think there is some reason to think so, but reasons to think otherwise as well. the pf is one of those cases where i don't think role and power necessarily match up.

what do you think the best single feat of the pf is?

I agree that PF's role and power don't match up at all.

In Here Comes Tomorrow Jean was seemingly able to manipulate an entire universe, but that was done in the white hot room which is a multiversal nexus,so just how impressive it was is questionable to me.

Originally posted by zopzop
Quick question, are the events in X-Men : The End canon? Cassandra Nova was about to do some serious damage with the PF in that mini series.

Originally posted by zopzop
Just wanted to add these scans from Uncanny X-Men 473. Uatu talking to the X-Men about the PF and First Fallen :
https://s10.postimg.org/tk8i415dx/watcher_lesson.jpg https://s10.postimg.org/grke43ts5/watcher_lesson_2.jpg

Couple of things worth mentioning :
a) He's scared of the First Fallen
b) The Watcher claims the PF is the fire that sparks creation and the fire that consumes it

Depends on what you mean canon. Canon to 616? Of course not, but the events did happen in an alternate reality so it is canon to "the multiverse" if you will.

We already knew that and it was mentioned several times, one of which in the X-Men The end (v3) which you referenced. Doesn't matter since it is hyperbole.

Originally posted by "Id"
This is no longer true.

We now know that the Phoenix Force predated 616 reality, as it is shown and explained that it battle the cosmic enity Le Bette Noir since the previous reality.

Its very true. the PF of 616 is the reborn version just like everyone else. It died when the previous reality imploded and was reborn, the "reborn" Phoenix is the one which resumed its battle with the bete noir entity. This was never stated in the story but clarified in a recent handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/JvbYdtf.jpg?1

My post above there's an on panel depiction for the PF origins of the previous reality, so it adds up.

@the scan dump: many of those early scans of universal ignition are old enough that the pf would never have been mentioned and so are pointless. as for the rest--already addressed in my post to op. if the energy of creation is synonymous with the pf, there is no need to have it mentioned--those knowledgeable in the material will know it is assumed to be there in some form if the cycle has progressed NATURALLY. no less than a half dozen very reliable narrators have made the issue clear in my mind, and the narrators comments have been corroborated in bio entries.

iow: absence of proof is NOT proof of absence.

Originally posted by operator616
You're basically summing up individual depictions together to fit it in with your view. What you're missing here is that these individual depictions don't seem to take into account each other. For example, the Excalibur scene where the PF is born from the big bang doesn't mention anything about the PF being a creative force, just that it is born from creation.

Anyway, this is an illustration of the full origins of the PF:

i won't deny i'm picking and choosing a bit. but it's necessary with the force, and i'm picking and choosing only the most common theme. i'll explain.

using your origin story, the pf is multiversal (or at least multi-universal....). it dies, and is reborn (from the ashes....) from an egg then dies again when a universe dies only to be reborn again. could be when the egg hatches the energy released is the energy of creation. isn't that exactly what is most commonly described of the force? a spark, the egg, the energy of creation--i think you're overlooking the big and obvious picture because you're looking at the details: the pf plays a clear role in the moment of creation. egg, spark, energy. clearly different writers interpret that role differently, but.....that's comics. i guess i don't really differentiate those things like you do. i don't find them contradictory because they all amount to the same thing--a role in the beginning of the universe. maybe the role isn't as defined as you'd like, but not sure how you can argue that is DOESN'T play a part. if that's what you're doing. /shrug

your scans and bio posts also obviously support the idea that the pf DOES play a role in galactus's origin and supports the idea that pf predated the universe, as the bete noir scans reaffirm.

tbh, i've lost your train of argument. maybe you can clarify?

(1) do you believe the pf is a multiversal entity?
(2) do you believe the pf did play a role in galactus's salvation?
(3) in the same vein, do you think the pf exists perpetually in the rise and fall of universe when they rise and fall naturally?
(4) do you believe the pf does have a role in the ignition of a universe, even if said role isn't as defined as you'd like?

i won't be mad if you don't wanna answer i am legitimately curious though (others can feel free to answer as well). obviously my answer is yes to each, which make the pf an essential and powerful force. how powerful is it within a universe? still not 100% sure. i'm still not sure i'd refer to it as an abstract entity either, but can see why it might be considered as such.



lol it could go towards my point as well. if you consider the ragnarok origin as a possible way of looking at things, that means the role of the pf is also a viable option and shouldn't be ruled out by anyone. it simply has the benefit of having been described more times, by more knowledgeable narrators and has the added benefit of being supported in handbooks.



neither of the arcs you've mentioned defined the pf in a cosmological sense though. if they did, i don't recall it. and certainly the inferno arc only touched the other titles peripherally. i'm not sure how you can argue the point tbh. the pf appeared first in what? 76? inferno was....89/90? the avengers stuff wasn't long before that. there was like....6 years of material under claremont that was almost completely insulated (with some rare exceptions) from the rest of marvel, where he could not have cared less about how other titles defined the beginning of the universe in marvel.

when did the first 'cosmic' crossover with other titles happen that involved the pf as an integral part? the first i recall is the titans/x-men xover but that isn't even canon so who cares? it hasn't been until MUCH more recently that marvel as a whole started using the pf in a way that supports the the x-men's definition of what the pf was supposed to represent. if you disagree, i'd love to see some specific material that contradicts this view. i mean claremont was removed from the x-titles specifically BECAUSE he didn't like having to play nice with other writers and because he didn't give a rat's a$$ about continuity. he did his own thing, which of course led directly to so many of the problems that later came about when trying to fit the pf INTO more commonly accepted versions of marvel's cosmology. can't really blame the pf for that...



that's fair enough. the feat is questionable to me as well, but while i'm not sure just how much power it required (did it mean she is capable of toying with eternity like a plaything within the whr?) i do know it's a damn impressive feat, and shouldn't be dismissed or downplayed.

this thread was predicated on the highest levels of power displayed by all involved. liked all demons are in their realms we can maybe that the scene in the whr IS the highest level we've seen the pf operate at. with that in mind, i'd say she clears this.

ugh. my typing sucks. anyway fixed for clarification.

also a further point to clarify: i get why you mentioned the inferno and avengers arc in reference to the retcon, but what i was trying to get at is an arc with....first attempted to blend the pf's role in cosmology as defined in the x-books, with the mainstream notion of cosmology. afaik that merging of ideas didn't happen until well after those arcs took place.

the pf is, historically, a mess, no doubt, but over the last bunch of years i think marvel has made an effort (much more of an effort than in the past at least) to consolidate it and has tried to keep its role more consistent. imo at least.

@operator

I can't even count the number of threads you've posted in where you seem gauge a character's power primarily by statements made about him/her(I can post SEVERAL of these threads/examples if you'd like..?) I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but why, in this thread, are you all of the sudden hand-waving away most of the statements made about the PF as 'hyperbole' or whathaveyou? Just seems a bit... Inconsistent to me.

Originally posted by leonidas


i won't deny i'm picking and choosing a bit. but it's necessary with the force, and i'm picking and choosing only the most common theme. i'll explain.

using your origin story, the pf is multiversal (or at least multi-universal....). it dies, and is reborn (from the ashes....) from an egg then dies again when a universe dies only to be reborn again. could be when the egg hatches the energy released is the energy of creation. isn't that exactly what is most commonly described of the force? a spark, the egg, the energy of creation--i think you're overlooking the big and obvious picture because you're looking at the details: the pf plays a clear role in the moment of creation. egg, spark, energy. clearly different writers interpret that role differently, but.....that's comics. i guess i don't really differentiate those things like you do. i don't find them contradictory because they all amount to the same thing--a role in the beginning of the universe. maybe the role isn't as defined as you'd like, but not sure how you can argue that is DOESN'T play a part. if that's what you're doing. /shrug

your scans and bio posts also obviously support the idea that the pf DOES play a role in galactus's origin and supports the idea that pf predated the universe, as the bete noir scans reaffirm.

tbh, i've lost your train of argument. maybe you can clarify?

(1) do you believe the pf is a multiversal entity?
(2) do you believe the pf did play a role in galactus's salvation?
(3) in the same vein, do you think the pf exists perpetually in the rise and fall of universe when they rise and fall naturally?
(4) do you believe the pf does have a role in the ignition of a universe, even if said role isn't as defined as you'd like?

i won't be mad if you don't wanna answer i am legitimately curious though (others can feel free to answer as well). obviously my answer is yes to each, which make the pf an essential and powerful force. how powerful is it within a universe? still not 100% sure. i'm still not sure i'd refer to it as an abstract entity either, but can see why it might be considered as such.


It specifically states that the PF is born from the universe-creating energies. Clearly dissociating the PF from the creation energies.

1) It could affect other realities of the multiverse if that's what you mean. But it can't perform any full blown multiversal feats.
2) No, Eternity did.
3) Not as a creative force.
4) No.

PF predated the universe as much as Charles and the other X-Men did. Because they existed in that previous universe as well. They all died. I don't see what's so impressive about that.

Originally posted by leonidas

lol it could go towards my point as well. if you consider the ragnarok origin as a possible way of looking at things, that means the role of the pf is also a viable option and shouldn't be ruled out by anyone. it simply has the benefit of having been described more times, by more knowledgeable narrators and has the added benefit of being supported in handbooks.


No matter how many times it's supported by "narrators" it doesn't equate to clear cut on panel illustrations, depicting the actual origins of the force. And this is what was supported in the handbooks, i don't see a handbook referring to the force as being the spark that ignites creation, do you?

Basically my evidence is:

On panel illustration (not just statement)
Handbook confirmation

Yours is:

Statements from various narrators (without actually depicting the scene to support their claims)

Are we clear on that?


Originally posted by leonidas

neither of the arcs you've mentioned defined the pf in a cosmological sense though. if they did, i don't recall it. and certainly the inferno arc only touched the other titles peripherally. i'm not sure how you can argue the point tbh. the pf appeared first in what? 76? inferno was....89/90? the avengers stuff wasn't long before that. there was like....6 years of material under claremont that was almost completely insulated (with some rare exceptions) from the rest of marvel, where he could not have cared less about how other titles defined the beginning of the universe in marvel.

when did the first 'cosmic' crossover with other titles happen that involved the pf as an integral part? the first i recall is the titans/x-men xover but that isn't even canon so who cares? it hasn't been until MUCH more recently that marvel as a whole started using the pf in a way that supports the the x-men's definition of what the pf was supposed to represent. if you disagree, i'd love to see some specific material that contradicts this view. i mean claremont was removed from the x-titles specifically BECAUSE he didn't like having to play nice with other writers and because he didn't give a rat's a$$ about continuity. he did his own thing, which of course led directly to so many of the problems that later came about when trying to fit the pf INTO more commonly accepted versions of marvel's cosmology. can't really blame the pf for that...


You don't seem to realize that the phoenix force as a concept (not Jean as phoenix) wasn't introduced until '86.... This is the revelation/retcon that happened in the FF/Avengers story. Jean never "mutated" (so to speak) into phoenix, she was possessed by it, and that wasn't the real Jean anyway, it was a duplicate which believed itself to be Jean. And this is why your claims of X-Men's dissociation doesn't apply, because by that time (when the actual phoenix force was introduced) company wide crossovers were well under way.

Originally posted by leonidas

that's fair enough. the feat is questionable to me as well, but while i'm not sure just how much power it required (did it mean she is capable of toying with eternity like a plaything within the whr?) i do know it's a damn impressive feat, and shouldn't be dismissed or downplayed.

this thread was predicated on the highest levels of power displayed by all involved. liked all demons are in their realms we can maybe that the scene in the whr IS the highest level we've seen the pf operate at. with that in mind, i'd say she clears this.

Not necessarily. Manipulating the universe and Eternity are two different things. Shaper's power was able to re-create the universe from scratch but we know that cube beings are well below eternity. If, for instance, Eternity is forcefully fighting against a universe-buster, it's not a guaranteed win for the aforementioned universe-buster.

Possibly.

Originally posted by leonidas

also a further point to clarify: i get why you mentioned the inferno and avengers arc in reference to the retcon, but what i was trying to get at is an arc with....first attempted to blend the pf's role in cosmology as defined in the x-books, with the mainstream notion of cosmology. afaik that merging of ideas didn't happen until well after those arcs took place.

the pf is, historically, a mess, no doubt, but over the last bunch of years i think marvel has made an effort (much more of an effort than in the past at least) to consolidate it and has tried to keep its role more consistent. imo at least.

First time that happened was around the same time Claremont's Excalibur was taking place, so....

Originally posted by Galan007
@operator

I can't even count the number of threads you've posted in where you seem gauge a character's power primarily by statements made about him/her(I can post SEVERAL of these threads/examples if you'd like..?) I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but why, in this thread, are you all of the sudden hand-waving away most of the statements made about the PF as 'hyperbole' or whathaveyou? Just seems a bit... Inconsistent to me.

Because there are on panel depictions contradicting those statements, unlike in the other cases where i consider statements genuine.

(1) do you believe the pf is a multiversal entity?
N/A
we dont know for certain jf its 1 Phoenix Entity for every universe or if its one entity that shares its power across the avatars.

(2) do you believe the pf did play a role in galactus's salvation?
Yes. Its there in Operators scans in plain English.

(3) in the same vein, do you think the pf exists perpetually in the rise and fall of universe when they rise and fall naturally?
That is its role among others. Although it seems that this responsibility is shared with other entities.

(4) do you believe the pf does have a role in the ignition of a universe, even if said role isn't as defined as you'd like?
Yes. Although it seems that this responsibility is shared with other entities.

Ultimatley what The Phoenix Force serves is cosmic consonance. And Cosmic Consonance, is a system to preserve the natural order of things. Cosmic Being and Space Gods play a part in this system.

Originally posted by operator616
It specifically states that the PF is born from the universe-creating energies. Clearly dissociating the PF from the creation energies.

1) It could affect other realities of the multiverse if that's what you mean. But it can't perform any full blown multiversal feats.
2) No, Eternity did.
3) Not as a creative force.
4) No.

PF predated the universe as much as Charles and the other X-Men did. Because they existed in that previous universe as well. They all died. I don't see what's so impressive about that.

you don't deem this a mutliversal feat?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/56904/1185539-excalibur050p17dl6.jpg



what i see is a call upon handbooks when it is deemed convenient and a call to ignore them when it isn't. /shrug



lol

oh, we're clear. but i have very reliable narrator claims AND reed, on panel, using the term 'energy of creation' synonymously with the pf. no giant firebird at the start of every universe needed. it's also clear you are hand waving things you don't seem to care for for some odd reason. absence of proof isn't proof of absence. again.



i'm aware of what the retcon did. and like i said, neither had anything to do with the pf's place in cosmology. inferno came out what, 4-5 years later? and in the interim, how many crossovers explained the role of the pf that were NOT part of the x-family again? again, like i said, marvel as a whole did not start viewing the force in any significant way until YEARS later. why? because the x-titles were STILL widely held as separate from the other marvel titles. if there's a xover i'm forgetting that focused on phoenix i'm all ears. hell, it wasn't even until recently that captain america APOLOGIZED to mutants for not doing more to help their cause over the years! that was clear reference to the disconnect between x-titles and the rest of marvel.



i've heard it argued thanos usurped creation with a cosmic cube.....

anyway, we are clearly not going to see eye to eye on this. we see the proofs too differently. you think because it's NOT shown it can't be there despite being told by reliable characters it is. i'll take the word of the characters themselves. hopefully one of these days you'll get your on-panel proof.

One other quick question, how powerful is Alfie O'Meagan? I heard he was a universal level reality warper. Rachel brought him to his knees :
https://s22.postimg.org/e652uvp0d/2947132_scan_63.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
you don't deem this a mutliversal feat?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/56904/1185539-excalibur050p17dl6.jpg



No because it needed an alignment to achieve this. The alignment basically opened the doors between universes to allow PF to perform that feat. Not unlike using a nexus to spread one's power through the multiverse.

Just clarifying this part since it seemed important. Agree to disagree on the rest.

Originally posted by zopzop
One other quick question, how powerful is Alfie O'Meagan? I heard he was a universal level reality warper. Rachel brought him to his knees :
https://s22.postimg.org/e652uvp0d/2947132_scan_63.jpg

Originally posted by operator616

Nth Man #16: Alfie gives John his own abilities with which he defeats M'Gubgub (a universal being) by collapsing M'Gubgub in on himself

http://i.imgur.com/ZGEsfq6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/p6qKkVv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MA9sFut.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o5uA7BG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QOgKjhx.jpg

Just so we know how powerful M'Gubgub is: He eats Galaxies for breakfast:

http://i.imgur.com/MXg9NGv.jpg

Nth Man #14: His full form blocks half of the galaxy:

http://i.imgur.com/8ezG6Af.jpg

A being who dwarfs planet and has seen the death of universeS, flees when he hears the name of M'Gubgub:

http://i.imgur.com/FFsvkEl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fOirCdt.jpg

^^ ...
Originally posted by leonidas

@the scan dump:

many of those early scans of universal ignition are old enough that the pf would never have been mentioned

and so are pointless.
"pointless?" ... ...

I just posted every portrayal/depiction EVER of the Marvel Big Bang. (from the 70's to 2015)

... and NONE involved the PF, even indirectly, even an allusion of possibility was for naught.

In FACT .. I even posted the creation of the actual "SPARK" that ignites the Big Bang.

Which was created by the Alien Entity and Reed.

The Alien Entity exploded as the literal Big Bang.

-------------------------------------------

Sorry old friend, you'll have to post evidence that suggests the AE and Reed created the PF (spark)

and, you'll also have to prove that the Alien Entity was actually the PF in disguise.
Originally posted by leonidas

if the energy of creation is synonymous with the pf, there is no need to have it mentioned--those knowledgeable in the material will know it is assumed to be there in some form if the cycle has progressed NATURALLY.
I can't debate like this.

Nah.

The PF didn't do jack, and was no where around during any Big Bang event taking place in marvel comics.

Genesis (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Entropy (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Thanos (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Alien Entity (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
The LT (not the PF) initiated the creation event, aka Big Bang.
The Celestials (not the PF) created the universe, and then split it into a Multiverse.

Those are actual ON PANEL showings, ... illustrated action.

uhh, no one will ever convince me that was the PF doing that instead, off panel, lol.

Cool quote:

"who should I believe, you, or my own two eyes?"

at this thread ... Since when are empty statements so valuable?
Originally posted by "Id"
(1) do you believe the pf is a multiversal entity?
N/A
we dont know for certain jf its 1 Phoenix Entity for every universe or if its one entity that shares its power across the avatars.

(2) do you believe the pf did play a role in galactus's salvation?
Yes. Its there in Operators scans in plain English.

(3) in the same vein, do you think the pf exists perpetually in the rise and fall of universe when they rise and fall naturally?
That is its role among others. Although it seems that this responsibility is shared with other entities.

(4) do you believe the pf does have a role in the ignition of a universe, even if said role isn't as defined as you'd like?
Yes. Although it seems that this responsibility is shared with other entities.

Ultimatley what The Phoenix Force serves is cosmic consonance. And Cosmic Consonance, is a system to preserve the natural order of things. Cosmic Being and Space Gods play a part in this system.
1) You'd be hard pressed to prove it's a universal entity, before you go one universe further friend.

2) NO. ... If you believe it did, what exactly did the PF do to participate in G's birth?

3) NO.

4) NO

Originally posted by Mr Master
Genesis (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Entropy (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Thanos (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Alien Entity (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
The LT (not the PF) initiated the creation event, aka Big Bang.
The Celestials (not the PF) created the universe, and then split it into a Multiverse.

Those are actual ON PANEL showings, ... illustrated action.

uhh, no one will ever convince me that was the PF doing that instead, off panel, lol.

Cool quote:

"who should I believe, you, or my own two eyes?"

you're not understanding a couple things: primarily, in showing me scans (some well before the pf was acknowledged in its cosmological role) that DON'T have the pf in them, all you're really doing, in essence, is trying to prove a negative: the pf has no role in creation because it ISN'T there. that's not the way it's meant to work, obviously. i can't say peter parker's teeth will shatter if he eats a popsickle then show a bunch of scans of him not eating a popsickle and say "see, look, no popsickles, so his teeth really would sahtter!!11!" lol

in a nutshell, this is your ABSENCE of evidence, vs my on panel evidence, in the form of statements from extremely knowledgeable characters (i don't like handbooks for reasons that should be obvious from this thread). reed flat out states the energy of creation IS the pf. combine that with the others' statements and that is support enough for me. it's just been said too many times, i get it's not enough for you or op. believe it or not i'm fine with that. lol i can't fully understand it, but i certainly don't give a sh!t that your opinions differ from mine.

secondly, all of the scans you posted ARE pointless, because as you've pointed out and reiterated in your post, NONE of them show a natural progression of universal death/creation/succession. in every scan, each universe was initiated by a power that was not natural, not part of the repeating cycle of universal death, followed by rebirth through creation/big bang. it has been repeatedly stated that the pf has a role in NATURAL progression. so if the AE initiated creation, why WOULD the pf be present?

if genesis and entropy and thanos supplied the energy of creation, why WOULD the pf be needed? makes....no sense. it's needed when nothing else is present--ie, when a universe ends naturally and advances toward the next universe that will take its place. i honestly don't see what the stopping point is. it's not like i'm saying it contains all the energy in the universe, or it's greater than eternity. its fires get the ball rolling and creation does its thing and the pf is reborn as a universal manifestation of a force that certainly appears to be multiversal in the new universe after having died in the previous. it also plays a role in 'life' it would appear but that's really quite a vague connection. /shrug

anyway, these are certainly not outlandish claims, and it can be supported, though not in the way you'd like. marvel has f'd the pf so badly though, that i can't blame anyone for disagreeing. just so long as you know both viewpoints have merit and neither should be dismissed out of hand.

Originally posted by leonidas

in a nutshell, this is your ABSENCE of evidence, vs my on panel evidence,
in the form of statements from extremely knowledgeable characters
.. I still luvs ya though.
Originally posted by leonidas

reed flat out states the energy of creation IS the pf.

but i certainly don't give a sh!t that your opinions differ from mine.
I'm not posting opinions. You may not give a sht, but that's inconsequential.

All that matters if evidence.

Reed? ... That's actually Mark Waid (writer) speaking out of his ass via Reed. (January 2005)

Here's Stan Lee (writer) below, speaking truth via Reed,
where an illustrated portrayal cements his factual truth. (November 2005)

----------------------------------------------------------------

You must've missed this, or overlooked it.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring! ... and Reed Richards is there seeing it happen.

The real "SPARK" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring!

The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring!

The Alien Entity/Reed created the "Spark" that ignites the Fires/Engines of Creation: (on panel) occurring!

And indeed, the Alien Entity even manipulated the "Spark" into motion: (on panel) occurring!

The Big Bang in the flesh (on panel actually depicted)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674168_2.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674169_3.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674170_4.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674171_5.jpg

Let's not ever bring up Reed with Waid's ganja influenced delusions.
Originally posted by leonidas

NONE of them show a natural progression of universal death/creation/succession.

in every scan, each universe was initiated by a power that was not natural,
not part of the repeating cycle of universal death,
followed by rebirth through creation/big bang.
That's false.

Leo, you gotta know what you're debating about if you wish to continue this.

The Entropy story line deals with exactly that. The "repeating cycle" ... the natural death and rebirth of creation.

http://s6d4.turboimg.net/t1/30154151_Entropy.jpg

"it is the cycle" ...

Originally posted by Mr Master
.. I still luvs ya though.

I'm not posting opinions. You may not give a sht, but that's inconsequential.

All that matters if evidence.

Reed? ... That's actually Mark Waid (writer) speaking out of his ass via Reed. (January 2005)

Here's Stan Lee (writer) below, speaking truth via Reed,
where an illustrated portrayal cements his factual truth. (November 2005)

----------------------------------------------------------------

You must've missed this, or overlooked it.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring! ... and Reed Richards is there seeing it happen.

The real "SPARK" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring!

The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring!

The Alien Entity/Reed created the "Spark" that ignites the Fires/Engines of Creation: (on panel) occurring!

And indeed, the Alien Entity even manipulated the "Spark" into motion: (on panel) occurring!

The Big Bang in the flesh (on panel actually depicted)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674168_2.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674169_3.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674170_4.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674171_5.jpg

Let's not ever bring up Reed with Waid's ganja influenced delusions.

there you go again with 'evidence'. seriously? absence of proof.....

anyway, wth, are we looking at the same scans above?

the AE says, specifically, the light came from "within him". it's...literally right there, on the first page. if the light came from within him, then.....how would it have come from anywhere else? if this being can create a universe on his own, why the %$#@ would he need the pf to start anything? and having an alien entity create a big bang is natural? i just don't know what to say tbh.

and in any event, where's entropy exactly in that set of scans...? or any of the other scans if as you say below those cm scans show a true natural progression?





https://foxhugh.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/marvel-abstract-entities-entropy-captain-marvel-v4-5-2003-page-23.jpg?w=500&h=766

"the universe will end eventually, but i grow tired of eventually."

how in the hell is that any sort of "natural progression"?? if you look up the definition for the OPPOSITE of natural, you'd find THAT. it seems you want everyone to think what exactly? that the natural progression for all universes is for entropy to get all bent because his dad rejected him, kill eternity then....evolve into the next eternity and start his own big bang?? weird too how it isn't mentioned in any eternity bio that he was killed by entropy and then replaced--or in any book ever that i can recall. maybe because that would seem to be a paradox of the highest order since eternity has been stated a million times to have been born IN the big bang (where entropy was also born....) as opposed to having had existed before it and starting it?

entropy says it himself--the universe WILL end, NATURALLY. it's been said in many comics the universe will end in heat death, everything will die and the next will begin. THAT is natural. entropy teaming up with a cosmic hero to kill eternity then take his place? not so natural. imho.

phoenix vulcan seemed to have no limit, said to consume all reality if he didnt stop.

Originally posted by Mordum
phoenix vulcan seemed to have no limit, said to consume all reality if he didnt stop.
Alternate reality unfortunately. Also, Alternate Reality Jean already destroyed a universe before him too.

All I know is, Leo doesn't know how to fricking spell 'popsicles', and it makes me furious.

hey, wait, that's the canadian spelling.

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/54353/1999042-hercules____thumbs_up_01.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
All I know is, Leo doesn't know how to fricking spell 'popsicles', and it makes me furious.

btw you've been uncharacteristically quiet over there. no thoughts on the pf? not that i blame you for staying away from this biohazard.

and and check out the shiny new version of my sig courtesy of galan. (insert ooooos and ahhhhhs)

Your sig sucks.

Ooh, aah.

durimshot

Truth be told, I don't have a care for the guys in this thread....nor on the characters named

Nah. Not enough of an expert. All I've seen in recent times of the Phoenix vs mystics is its performance against the Dragon that IF defeated...

Originally posted by Mr Master
=========================================


The Universe's Big Bang birth and then the Multiverse's birth in Pak's vision:

http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129213_BB6.jpg
http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129214_BB7.jpg

=========================================


Starlin's portrayal of the Universe's birth how it Big Bangs into being:

http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129215_BB8.jpghttp://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129216_BB9.jpghttp://s6d6.turboimg.net/t/30129217_BB10.jpg

i somehow missed commenting on this: so both of these satisfy your criteria on on panel depiction, clearly. does that mean you actually attribute the creation of the multiverse to the celestials? it's also mentioned in a couple bios, so does that make it the one true multiversal origin then?

of course, those same bios say no one knows HOW the 616 started, so who the f*** knows, maybe they DID start things off. until the question is answered definitively, seems ridiculous to dismiss any reasonable explanations out of hand.

I like how the Celestials made the multiverse... By socking space.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d2/af/56/d2af5666a33c0f129a054f2e8ef81f18.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Truth be told, I don't have a care for the guys in this thread....nor on the characters named

Nah. Not enough of an expert. All I've seen in recent times of the Phoenix vs mystics is its performance against the Dragon that IF defeated...

went back to look at that. not much there. the dragon was young but it's breath hurt a weaker form of cyclops a bit. hope copied it and hurt him a bit with it but no real damage. cyke handled the dragon pretty easily but it was very young. he'd def have killed it with another hit i think but didn't.

there was the bit about a legend saying the ancient, full grown dragon beat the phoenix according to a kun lun legend, but......that's pretty meaningless. not really much to learn from the encounter. the whole avx phoenix was difficult to gauge anyway, and not really the highest version of the pf we've seen.

https://tjohnsonmediagroup.com/wp-content/uploads/I-Had-a-Great-Topic-and-the-Audience-Response...-Crickets.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
https://tjohnsonmediagroup.com/wp-content/uploads/I-Had-a-Great-Topic-and-the-Audience-Response...-Crickets.jpg
AvX killed the thread, just like it did the PF. Nothing and I mean NOTHING did more to destroy the PF's image among comic fans than that worthless crossover.

what did you really hate so much about it? where do you think the big injustice happened?

Originally posted by leonidas
what did you really hate so much about it? where do you think the big injustice happened?
One word : Puffy.
http://www.clipartkid.com/images/205/mrs-mathis-homeroom-puff-the-magic-dragon-and-babies-QoHdf3-clipart.png

Originally posted by zopzop
One word : Puffy.
http://www.clipartkid.com/images/205/mrs-mathis-homeroom-puff-the-magic-dragon-and-babies-QoHdf3-clipart.png
true.
That crossover did have like one good issue out of the entire thing.


And we did have that final scene with Scott, where was beginning to see the scope of his power, relative to how small and insignificant the Cosmos felt from his perspective.

yeah, i don't think it actually did TOO large a disservice to the pf. i mean a n00b scott took on both hope and wanda for quite a while and wanda was still getting a lotta luv at the time of that series....

I don't see how avx spoilt the Phoenix force
The Hosts stomped everyone
Wanda was basically their kryptonite

I.e., a mystic was their Kryptonite?

meh, not sure about that. i think it just had to do with the level of power wanda was throwing around. the dragon too is supposed to be very powerful--even the young one. iow i'm not convinced it was magic that was the weakness anymore than mephisto and agamotto have galactus problems. /shrug

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I.e., a mystic was their Kryptonite?


It's not about just magic
Wanda herself was their weaknesses, maybe it's because of the nature of her magic (Chaos magic) or maybe her mutant power . No other mystic was stated t be its weaknesses

Originally posted by "Id"

That crossover did have like one good issue out of the entire thing.



I felt the PF was presented decently enough. My problem was that the story ****ing sucked...

That issue by Hickman was the only good one. Could have been interesting had he written the whole thing. In addition to other things, I feel like he's the only person to ever deal with Hope properly.

Originally posted by StyleTime

That issue by Hickman was the only good one.

Originally posted by StyleTime


I felt the PF was presented decently enough. My problem was that the story ****ing sucked...

That issue by Hickman was the only good one. Could have been interesting had he written the whole thing. In addition to other things, I feel like he's the only person to ever deal with Hope properly.

i really enjoyed the second coming arc though--that was one of my fave x-titles arcs. bastion was bad-a$$ imo.

i agree the avx wasn't great overall (i didn't hate it) but i thought the pf was given a decent due. not perfect, but not terrible....