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(This applies to Legends)

The evidence from this comes from their respective performances against Obi Wan. Multiple sources, perhaps most in detail the Death Star novel, confirm that Obi Wan had weakened from RotS to ANH, and that Vader was understandably taking the fight seriously. Said sources also describe the battle as either an impasse or a modest tilt in Vader's favor, but hardly as a curbstomp.

Meanwhile, Dooku basically f*cks up Obi Wan at his strongest with minimal effort, first pushing him down and then ragdolling him while kicking Anakin away.

Why didn't Vader just do that if he really were so strong in the Force? You could say that he wanted to make it personal or something, but this doesn't fit with his musings in the Death Star novel, which make it clear that he was leaving absolutely nothing up to chance. The other explanation is that Obi Wan declined as a duelist but grew considerably stronger in the Force - this is possible, but never really mentioned or hinted at in any of the source material. And none of that would refute the evidence that Dooku is the superior duelist.

After all, we know that the original intention was for Vader to be a shell of his former self, a view that changed after TFU unleashed came out. So Vader's edge over Dooku in Legends comes primarily from his spectacular feats in one franchise. Are those feats even better than Dooku's own cruiser ragdolling?

Nope.

Fascinating argument.

I thought I'd give you a response about on par with the quality you put out.

Yes. Dooku = Mace > Vader.

Lol Syndicate isn't having a good day.

Anyway, I think it's possible that Ben Kenobi is just much more powerful than he used to be in the Force, but inferior as a duelist. But it's not inconceivable that Vader just isn't as good.

Ben Kenobi is nothing. His physicals are terrible and he's old, with shit augmentation. He's weak

I'm having a fine day actually. Pretty blue sky, some videos I'd been waiting for for a while recently came out and I got a test back with a 95. All in all pretty satisfied.

Anyway, I think it's possible that Ben Kenobi is just much more powerful than he used to be in the Force

Given the text outright states that one would assume that would be the case.

You're welcome to share the passage.

"This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting." - A New Hope.

I believe Wolf Myth has various other quotes for Ben's growth in power as well.

^^
Alongside the fact Kenobi's power potentially increased, canon has also told us that Vader became a "far more formidable foe" following the events of ANH. So his showing during that duel with old Ben isn't indicative to what a peak RotJ Vader would perform.

Also, holistically, Vader is just painted to be a bigger deal than Dooku is in the grand scheme of this, tbh.

If we're taking the quote of Vader becoming far more formidable after ANH, then we also have to take the quote that Vader was a mere shadow of his former self in ANH.

Ben didn't say that in the movie, but if we ignore that part...are we supposed to trust Ben's trash talking over that of third party sources and Vader's own observation?

That refers to mastery, anyway.

Vader's been featured in hundreds of works, but only one puts him above Dooku.

If you exclusively look at legends, sure. Canonically, Vader.

"You still have your skill, but your power fades." - Empire Strikes Back novel

What do you guys make of Vader saying that to Ben? Just taunting him?

You have to be a little dense, and perhaps a little inebriated to believe Kenobi is not completely out of his prime by the time ANH. He might be wiser and more attuned to the Force in way that manifests his identity after a physical death, but anything relating to combat, particularly lightsaber combat, has taken a sharp decline asunder. This is not just the most logical interpratation, but it's also one supported by several sources:

Originally posted by SunRazer
If we're taking the quote of Vader becoming far more formidable after ANH, then we also have to take the quote that Vader was a mere shadow of his former self in ANH.
And since when did I not take that quote at face value?

TFU is the only thing that really throws the quote outta wack, honestly.

The new Star Wars comic series confirms that Kenobi didn't practice his saber abilities in exile, by the way.

I have ROTS Dooku>ANH Vader.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Ben Kenobi is nothing. His physicals are terrible and he's old, with shit augmentation. He's weak Ben Kenobi was so weak he committed suicide. Coward.

Stop trying to elevate Anakin

Dooku>ANH Vader

Dooku~ESB Vader

ROTJ Vader>Dooku.

I already said why for the first one. For the 2nd one the logic comes from how in Shadows of the Empire Vader said Luke was the strongest Jedi he's fought and we all saw him own him pretty badly. If we extend this to Mustafar Vader than that would place ESB Luke~ROTS Obi wan who also got owned badly by Dooku. So from that Vader and Dooku are in the same tier IMO. ROTJ Vader stated he reached his prime, so a boost in power should have let him surpass Dooku IMO.

That's pretty generous in favor of Dooku, actually.

To be fair, Vader sort of disassociated himself from his past life, so Obi Wan might not count. And of course "powerful" is pretty nebulous.

What's your proof that Dooku wrecked Obi-Wan with minimal effort? The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection claims that he had to use all of his power to remove Obi-Wan.

^ damn, quote?

If you're taking that quote as valid I'm assuming you're also taking into account he was weakened substantially when facing Anakin afterwards?

No, because it's contradicted. The novel has Dooku washing away his fatigue right after Anakin knocks him off the balcony. By contrast, the Choke is never explained, so it is possible that we take that claim. The junior novel claims that he was using all of his effort to kick Anakin, if that's worth anything.

Anyways, I never said I took that quote, only that it existed. I was merely asking Ellimist for a quote to contradict it, since he seemed to believe differently.

Then there's also the multiple quotes that say he dismissed Obi Wan easily. Obviously the quotes from the RotS era have a bit of schizophrenia.

Edit: You just edited your above response. Like substantially. It's not even the same post.

It was "easy" in that he did it in one move and essentially ragdolled him, but it still took all of his energy. Usain Bolt easily won the gold this summer, but he still gave it his all.

^ at least, that's the best rationalization, I would think.

@Synd - Yep, I did. I was on the fence but then I realized that the novel takes precedence anyway.

Where's the "multiple" quotes for Obi-Wan being dismissed easily?

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, because it's contradicted. The novel has Dooku washing away his fatigue right after Anakin knocks him off the balcony. By contrast, the Choke is never explained, so it is possible that we take that claim. The junior novel claims that he was using all of his effort to kick Anakin, if that's worth anything.

Anyways, I never said I took that quote, only that it existed. I was merely asking Ellimist for a quote to contradict it, since he seemed to believe differently.

So you're still going with force users Dooku level or above have infinite stamina? Lmao.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
So you're still going with force users Dooku level or above have infinite stamina? Lmao.

They do.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Synd - Yep, I did. I was on the fence but then I realized that the novel takes precedence anyway.

Where's the "multiple" quotes for Obi-Wan being dismissed easily?

Wolf has them. I don't keep quotes stockpiled like the rest of you.

Holy f*ck. Stop editing your posts it makes this an even bigger mess then it already is.

I'm pretty sure >Dooku tiers have been described feeling fatigued, but maybe not. It usually accompanies some sort of injury.

Do we conclude then that Shimrra really is a Luke-tier duelist? Most just say that Luke was tired.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
So you're still going with force users Dooku level or above have infinite stamina? Lmao.

I didn't say he has infinite stamina. That's the junior novel's outlier depiction.

I do think that they can wash their fatigue away with a moment's respite, though, which the novel supports.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It was "easy" in that he did it in one move and essentially ragdolled him, but it still took all of his energy. Usain Bolt easily won the gold this summer, but he still gave it his all.

^ at least, that's the best rationalization, I would think.

The quotes imply he does so with a negligible amount of his power.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say he has infinite stamina. That's the junior novel's outlier depiction.

I do think that they can wash their fatigue away with a moment's respite, though, which the novel supports.

I agree but yours and my definition of fatigue may be different. I believe they can wash away physical tiredness but are still using force reserves when doing so which if hey ran out would leave the Force user at their base physical level. What you seem to believe is that they can actually refill their force reserves during a respite.

Well as he rejuvenated himself in seconds, it seems to be the case. Like he expended his short term reserves, but hardly his long term ones.

Doesn't seem to be the case when he's apparently about to pass out in general from an assault by Anakin.

Because Anakin is that powerful.

Anakin being that powerful doesn't contradict what I said.

I mean he was on the verge of passing out because of Anakin, not being he had to TK Obi Wan.

Not really the point. I'm saying that if he's about to pass out it's not just his short term reserves being depleted at that point.

Oh, I was responding to "the quotes imply he does so with a negligible amount of his power" with respect to his taking out Obi Wan.

Anyway, we're getting a little off topic. We should make a dedicated Anakin vs. Dooku thread.

Ah, sorry. Thought you were responding to the Nova thing.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I agree but yours and my definition of fatigue may be different. I believe they can wash away physical tiredness but are still using force reserves when doing so which if hey ran out would leave the Force user at their base physical level. What you seem to believe is that they can actually refill their force reserves during a respite.

You can definitely wash away physical strain. Refreshing your Force reserves does exist in the lore, IIRC, but I don't know if you can do that at a moment's notice. It is possible that Dooku was refreshing his Force reserves, though.

By meditation. That's about the only method I can recall allowing you to do so and not one you can reasonably enact in combat.

I'd disagree there.

On topic I really don't see Dooku ragdolling Old Ben, and Vader has many feats outside TFU that outstrip Dooku's accomplishments.

Then within the scope of Canon, he's confirmed to be Dooku's superior many times over.

RotS Dooku should be > ANH Vader, but RotJ Vader is > RotS Dooku; ESB Vader is more-or-less his equal, or perhaps slight superior.

Honestly, if anything, Tyranus seems more skilled, but Vader has the advantage with respect to both Force power and physical fortitude (by a colossal margin).

Colossal? No, not really. Enough to give Dooku extreme difficulty in a duel, definitely.

I said Vader's physical fortitude (strength and durability) was superior to Dooku by a colossal margin, and it is.

I agree on durability(mostly, since Tyranus is the guy who survives dropping hundreds of meters, and getting kicked in the face by an enraged Anakin despite his guard being down), but I doubt Vader's strength is colossaly greater, though. Well, at least not so colossal that it'll be that big a game changer against Tyranus.

Also, not sure if it's relevant, but I found a quote/scan of Vader noting only 1BBY does he actually start to realize the true power of the Dark Side, which implies he's still sub-Anakin until then and didn't grow that much.

It implies nothing of the sort lmao.

ESB Vader is certainly superior to Dooku, lmao. It's not even a question, really. And ANH Vader is Dooku's clear superior in the Force.

Equals in saber, but Vader is more powerful

Originally posted by MythLord
RotS Dooku should be > ANH Vader Based on what feats? Or the (flawed) Kenobi comparison alone?

The Kenobi comparison alone is enough to solidify Dooku's position over any version of Vader. And it's the only valuable comparison one can make. Add to the fact that Vader was getting battered by Maul in resurrection and we have a clear winner.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Then there's also the multiple quotes that say he dismissed Obi Wan easily. Obviously the quotes from the RotS era have a bit of schizophrenia.

Edit: You just edited your above response. Like substantially. It's not even the same post.
The quotes surrounding any ****ing movie fight have schizophrenia

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On topic I really don't see Dooku ragdolling Old Ben, and Vader has many feats outside TFU that outstrip Dooku's accomplishments.

Then within the scope of Canon, he's confirmed to be Dooku's superior many times over.


Yep

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
It implies nothing of the sort lmao.

Like, legitimately. How did he come to the conclusion from that quote?

Yes, Dooku is better as a duelist. Who'd win in a fight is another matter.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Like, legitimately. How did he come to the conclusion from that quote? Through crippling bias.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The Kenobi comparison alone is enough to solidify Dooku's position over any version of Vader. And it's the only valuable comparison one can make. Add to the fact that Vader was getting battered by Maul in resurrection and we have a clear winner. It's not because it assumes Dooku could ragdoll Old Ben, I await proof.

And Vader was "battered" by a doppleganger of Maul which there is no evidence shares the real version's capabilities.

Originally posted by MythLord
I agree on durability(mostly, since Tyranus is the guy who survives dropping hundreds of meters, and getting kicked in the face by an enraged Anakin despite his guard being down), but I doubt Vader's strength is colossaly greater, though. Well, at least not so colossal that it'll be that big a game changer against Tyranus.

Vader being able to tank lightsaber strikes is a pretty big deal tbh. Its a significant edge.

And I wait proof that Old Ben is even on TPM Kenobi's level. The fact that Vader can't beat a decrepit old Kenobi goes pretty hand-in-hand with prime Maul pushing his shit it.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
"This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting." - A New Hope.

I think I'd rather take the objective sources stating he's a shadow of his former self over an ambitious quote that could refer to a range of borderline cases - I imagine it refers to Ghost Mode Ben. Till then, accept the music - Vader is getting lowered by everyone.

Aside from the fact that said quote is both dated and contradicted, being a "shadow of his former self" could too refer to a range of "borderline cases" - like his physical and duelling capabilities. So I'll stick to reason for now.

Lol beni, look at how upset you're getting. It's pretty easy to tell what a shadow of his former self in the article Fightsaber is referring to, and it has nothing to do with meditation or attunement to the living force. Anyway, Old Ben is vastly inferior to his prime self in any manner relating to combat - obviously and that includes physical augmentation. His comment is referring to his ability to transcend the physical plane as a Force spirit and nothing else.

Pardon, I was a bit intoxicated and had no idea what I was saying...

Upon napping, and re-reading, Vader is > Dooku in da Force, Dooku is > Vader as a swordsman, my dog is > both of them, and Prime!Dooku > ANH Vader.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Lol beni, look at how upset you're getting. It's pretty easy to tell what a shadow of his former self in the article Fightsaber is referring to, and it has nothing to do with meditation or attunement to the living force. Anyway, Old Ben is vastly inferior to his prime self in any manner relating to combat - obviously and that includes physical augmentation. His comment is referring to his ability to transcend the physical plane as a Force spirit and nothing else. "Lol beni, look at how upset you're getting."? That says a lot more about your emotional state than mine.

Forgive me if rebutting your points frustrates you so. Moving on, yes it is easy, namely what the source goes on to describe, that in Kenobi's case he is old and out of practice. None of that precludes him being a less powerful Force user, instead as the saying goes, with age comes wisdom.

Kenobi has had plenty of time to meditate and reflect on the Force, expanding his understanding and therefore command over it, and his ability to transcend death reflects that he has done so. Under those circumstances I'm struggling to find a reason for a decline.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Lol beni, look at how upset you're getting."? That says a lot more about your emotional state than mine.

I have little reason to be emotional about the coming and goings of Vader's reputation on KMC. I'm not the one emotionally invested in wanking a lost cause who can't even defeat out-of-practice old men (Kenobi) and people who might not even be on the level of ATOC Anikin (ROTJ Luke), those have simply been the ground realties rooted in the highest order of canon and Legends since day one. People lowering him to favour Dooku just means they see the same.



You haven't



Concession accepted



I haven't argued that Kenobi is less powerful Force user when it comes to say, Telekinesis , but rather that he's had a sharp in any manner relating to physical combat, that is the most logical conclusion and one that's backed up by several objective sources addressing the matter. More importantly, you haven't been able to prove why Kenobi is more powerful, that quote certainly doesn't imply anything that you'd want it to.

\

It's equally possible that his continued practice of reaching the spiritual plain, has reduced his ability to control the Force physically. But that doesn't matter because all the Source material confirms his power relating to combat have diminished.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I have little reason to be emotional about the coming and goings of Vader's reputation on KMC. I'm not the one emotionally invested in wanking a lost cause who can't even defeat out-of-practice old men (Kenobi) and people who might not even be on the level of ATOC Anikin (ROTJ Luke), those have simply been the ground realties rooted in the highest order of canon and Legends since day one. People lowering him to favour Dooku just means they see the same.Then why the salty commentary? So? Are we not discussing Dooku's ability to telekinetically dominate Kenobi compared to Vader?The inference is there to be made, the fact that Vader simply has better feats than Dooku (as well as being confirmed to be stronger than him in Canon) only reinforces it as the correct one.Fanon lol. There is no basis for that in any source.And you appear to have failed in grasping that that's completely besides the point, lmao.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Then why the salty commentary? So? Are we not discussing Dooku's ability to telekinetically dominate Kenobi compared to Vader?

I stated that Kenobi might not have declined in the realm of various Force powers, his augmentation is as matter of fact, is not what it use to be, but his TK might be the of a similar grade in his prime years - but the problem here is that retaining that level of power simply isn't good enough to prevent a raggid ragdolling from Ol Dookster.



He doesn't.



I'm taking Palpatine's egoistical sub-narrative with a pinch of salt - you are aware the dude spent his entire career deceiving Vader? And I don't see why the personal opinion of Pablo Hidalgo is canon either.



Actually, there is.

"Your powers are weak," Vader noted emotionlessly. "Old man, you should never have come back. It will make your end less peaceful than you might have wished."

"You sense only a part of the Force, Darth," Kenobi murmured with the assurance of one to whom death is merely another sensation, like sleeping or making love or touching a candle. "As always, you perceive its reality as little as a utensil perceives the taste of food."

It's possible that Kenobi's attempt to connect with the spiritual realm of the Force stagnated his ability to affect the Physical plane. I imagine that's what Kenobi meant by stating "you sense only a part of the Force"
And also what he meant by "growing since they last met".

Pablo Hidalgo is a member of the Lucasfilm Story Group, who determine what is Canon, so no it's not just his personal opinion lol, it's effectively fact. Palpatine's observations only reinforcing that reality, as do Vader's feats.

And that's really not a precedent, instead its been stated that the Living Force and the Cosmic Force have an interconnected, symbiotic relationship. Vader's obsession with the physical plane notwithstanding.

I think that most of you are overrating the Force as a factor during duels. I would even risk an opinion, that Dooku was never able to effortlessly choke / push Kenobi. Before any of Dooku Force attacks, his opponents are overhelmed and thrown off-balance in saber fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCoG7UsHG8Q
1:28 - Dooku overhelms them in saber lock, Kenobi is clearly thrown off-balance and has his guard left. Dooku then Force chokes him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIe2A-SnXlY
This time it isn't as clear, but it's one of Dooku's advantages of one-handed grip - he blocked Kenobi in saberlock, and used his left hand to push Kenobi when he was vulnerable.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3721998-8129167519-35440.jpg
Dooku disarms Bulq right before a Force attack.

On the other hand, he was never able to stomp Kenobi the way he stomped Tiplee. Possibly because Kenobi was far superior to her as Force user.
Dooku couln't Force push Kenobi as well, when Kenobi was ready for that, as we could see in their last enoucnter in TCW.

Even Anakin was unable to overpower Kenobi in their push's fight. Imo mostly because Kenobi was ready for that attack.
Opress had to overhelm Adi in a saber fight as well. Then, he could use the Force.

Dooku had to engade Asajj and other NS in saber fight, until he catched them off-guard to Force attack. They probably left their guard after he seemed to be defeated.
Ventress also got terribly overhelmed by Dooku in their last fight in TCW, which enabled him to stomp her with his TK

Kenobi was two times floored by Maul's TK, mostly because he had to split his attention between Maul and Savage.

Even Vader - considered as a beast in the Force - couldn't easily Force pushed Ahoska. At first he needed to overhelm her in saber fight. And Ahsoka pushed him only when she evade his strike at first, and countered immediately, before he could rise his guard again.

We could also see a duel between Ahsoka and Maul with none of them having an advantage. The same Maul was badly stomped by Sidious. Ventress was badly stomped by Yoda.


Ahsoka, Ventress, Kenobi, Maul or Bulq - hard to tell, which one of them was the best Force user, or which one of them had the strongest guard. One thing is obvious for me: neither Dooku, Vader or Mace could easily stomp those guys in the Force. Unlike Sidious or Yoda. So Vader might be > Dooku or Mace or Anakin in the Force, but that dose not change the fact, that he's closer to them, then he's to Sidious. He has to fight people of Kanan's or Ezra's caliber, to stomp them in the Force. Nothing suggest, that he will be able to stomp stronger rivals.
And on that level of skill in the Force and sabers (Dooku, Mace, Vader league) sabers ale obviously more usefull as a weapon. Unlike in higher league - league of Yoda and Sidious.

Yeah I agree this idea that Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi any second he feels like it is ludicrous and completely unproven.

I mean he clearly has a greater command of the Force than Kenobi, but that doesn't mean instant ragdoll anytime.

Let's just ignore Dooku choking Obi-Wan, or dispatching him with a "whipcrack" of his power, then, shall we?

Yes, we shall.

Because it didn't happen, lelelelel.

Yes, Dooku has shown that he can incapacitate Obi Wan with relative impunity, what's more is he can do it with the likes of Anakin breathing down his kneck. Who has Vader dispatched with the Force, exactly?

Jax Pavan?

Rham Kota?

Or his failed TK attempts on Failen/Starkiller - the same guy who get's shoved around by the imperial shadow guards?

A failed TK attempt on ESB Luke?

LMAO.

McP's point is a fair one actually, especially considering Dooku failed to replicate this showing in The Lost One.

Whereas naturally your argument flops under serious scrutiny.

Still salty that Vader's getting lowered Ben?

RotJ Vader > ESB Vader >/= Dooku > ANH Vader > Sedriss > Kun

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Still salty that Vader's getting lowered Ben? I take it no response then? Can't say I'm disappointed.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust

Starkiller - the same guy who get's shoved around by the imperial shadow guards?



Except he wasn't shoved? He was hit in the face with a weapon with much bigger reach. The TFU novel, he wasn't shoved around by them either.

Originally posted by MythLord
Let's just ignore Dooku choking Obi-Wan, or dispatching him with a "whipcrack" of his power, then, shall we?


So why didn't he do that at the beginning of the fight? Or in The Lost One? Or in Crisis on Maboo? Or in AOTC?


I'm awaiting a good answer.


Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Who has Vader dispatched with the Force, exactly?




He actually has a better list than Mace Windu.

I guess that means Dooku > Vader > Windu in Tk right?

Originally posted by MythLord
Let's just ignore Dooku choking Obi-Wan, or dispatching him with a "whipcrack" of his power, then, shall we?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
So why didn't he do that at the beginning of the fight? Or in The Lost One? Or in Crisis on Maboo? Or in AOTC?
And why Vader - who is stated to be more powerful then Dooku - couldn't ragodoll Ben or Ahoska in the same way?

I tried to prove, that Kenobi was somehow taken off-guard every time Dooku floored him with the Force. When he wasn't, he was able to even block Count's push.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So why didn't he do that at the beginning of the fight? Or in The Lost One? Or in Crisis on Maboo? Or in AOTC?


I'm awaiting a good answer.

Disregarding that any author, director or comic artist would agree people sweeping away other people with hand gestures isn't good entertainment, Dooku is primarily a duelist, and wishes to outfence his opponents primarily if he has the pleasure.

In RotS, which is the only source Dooku was pressed by Kenobi in lightsaber combat, he resorted to his Force abilities and bested Obi-Wan through them.

Notice how many Force users enjoy first outdueling their enemies, then dispatching them with the Force; something even Sidious adheres to. It'd make sense Dooku does as well, especially given his reputation as a master swordsman, master fencer and dedicated combatant.

There's also Maul to consider, if the only criteria for being above ANH Vader is ragdolling Kenobi then is Maul a more powerful Force user as well?

If so Sheev really lucked out here. mmm

@Myth, why is Vader exempt from that same logic lol?

TPM Maul could legitimately be stronger than Vader, he is superior in lightsaber combat as of ANH.

@Beni

I'm not arguing he is. In fact, that logic should apply to him since people usually b!tch and moan at his inability to dispatch Ben, or ESB Luke, despite him proving more than able of dispatching opponents of an even greater calibre.

Isn't there a Scan where ESB Luke Blocks Vader's attempt at ragdolling him ?

Originally posted by MythLord
In RotS, which is the only source Dooku was pressed by Kenobi in lightsaber combat, he resorted to his Force abilities and bested Obi-Wan through them.
That's llright, despite the fact that ROS novel contraditcs the movie and exaggerating Force user's powers.
Ok, for me it's not allright. Dooku was a better dueslit then Kenobi at the time of ROTS, which is somehow confirmed by ROTS script, that cuted scene that I posted above, and last season of TCW. Dooku landed a lot of kicks on Obi-Wan and Anakin. In ROTS Anakin was stunned for a couple of seconds, in that cuted scene Anakin also lost his balance after Dooku's first kick and nearly fall on his knee. During their duel in TCW Kenobi also got some painful kick, he held his ribs for some time. And Dooku's first kick nearly killed him.
At that point, Dooku was kicked just one time, being taken by surprise by Anakin in ROTS.

Originally posted by MythLord Notice how many Force users enjoy first outdueling their enemies, then dispatching them with the Force; something even Sidious adheres to. It'd make sense Dooku does as well, especially given his reputation as a master swordsman, master fencer and dedicated combatant./B]
I did that, and as I said, Yoda and Sidious are on completly different level then Dooku, Anakin, Mace or Vader. Yoda has shown how badly he can stomp Ventress. Palpatine catched Maul and Opress off-guard, but then he let them free, to fight them. And during that fight he was showing his Force's superiority all the time.

Vader or Dooku couldn't do that this way.

Originally posted by McP
That's llright, despite the fact that ROS novel contraditcs the movie and exaggerating Force user's powers.
Ok, for me it's not allright. Dooku was a better dueslit then Kenobi at the time of ROTS, which is somehow confirmed by ROTS script, that cuted scene that I posted above, and last season of TCW. Dooku landed a lot of kicks on Obi-Wan and Anakin. In ROTS Anakin was stunned for a couple of seconds, in that cuted scene Anakin also lost his balance after Dooku's first kick and nearly fall on his knee. During their duel in TCW Kenobi also got some painful kick, he held his ribs for some time. And Dooku's first kick nearly killed him.
At that point, Dooku was kicked just one time, being taken by surprise by Anakin in ROTS.

After piecing together whatever that was, I realized you're arguing Dooku is actually > Obi-Wan as a duelist. And yes, that is true, but if you read the RotS novel, which you seemed to do, Obi-Wan was actually pressing Dooku.

Basically, Dooku needed to beat Kenobi quickly in a duel, before Skywalker gets up and they double-team him. However, since Anakin just got up, and Obi-Wan is good enough for Dooku not to stomp him in less than a second, Dooku had to improvise and used the Force.

It means Kenobi is a close contender with Dooku saber-wise, and that if Dooku wants to finish the fight off quickly, he'll need to do so with Force powers, not through dueling(since that's an area where Obi can compete in).

Originally posted by McP
I did that, and as I said, Yoda and Sidious are on completly different level then Dooku, Anakin, Mace or Vader. Yoda has shown how badly he can stomp Ventress. Palpatine catched Maul and Opress off-guard, but then he let them free, to fight them. And during that fight he was showing his Force's superiority all the time.

Vader or Dooku couldn't do that this way.

I legitimately do not care if Yoda or Sheev are better than Dooku, Anakin, Mace or Vader. That's a no-brainer fact, but that doesn't mean because Yoda and Palpatine do something, Dooku or Vader can't.

They can dominate other Force users, just not ones on the level that Yoda or Sidious can dominate, but the gap between them is proportional. What Sidious can do to Maul, Dooku can do to Zayne Carrick, for example. What Yoda can do to Asajj, Vader can do to TPM Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon Jinn.

They're all capable of dominating Force users are long as they are considerably above them; hence why Vader or Dooku can overpower Kenobi handily via TK.

It is a simple matter of power-levels and proportional gaps between said power-levels.

Wen did Vader show a capability to overpower Kenobi handily via TK? He didn't on Mustafar nor on the Death Star.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The new Star Wars comic series confirms that Kenobi didn't practice his saber abilities in exile, by the way. That sounds stupid.

Originally posted by McP
That's llright, despite the fact that ROS novel contraditcs the movie and exaggerating Force user's powers.
Ok, for me it's not allright. Dooku was a better dueslit then Kenobi at the time of ROTS, which is somehow confirmed by ROTS script, that cuted scene that I posted above, and last season of TCW. Dooku landed a lot of kicks on Obi-Wan and Anakin. In ROTS Anakin was stunned for a couple of seconds, in that cuted scene Anakin also lost his balance after Dooku's first kick and nearly fall on his knee. During their duel in TCW Kenobi also got some painful kick, he held his ribs for some time. And Dooku's first kick nearly killed him.
At that point, Dooku was kicked just one time, being taken by surprise by Anakin in ROTS.


I did that, and as I said, Yoda and Sidious are on completly different level then Dooku, Anakin, Mace or Vader. Yoda has shown how badly he can stomp Ventress. Palpatine catched Maul and Opress off-guard, but then he let them free, to fight them. And during that fight he was showing his Force's superiority all the time.

Vader or Dooku couldn't do that this way. Yoda fails to beat Sidious but Windu clearly does yet you spew this nonsense.

Originally posted by MythLord
@Beni

I'm not arguing he is. In fact, that logic should apply to him since people usually b!tch and moan at his inability to dispatch Ben, or ESB Luke, despite him proving more than able of dispatching opponents of an even greater calibre. Indeed, in fact I remember some very virulent responses in that respect regarding suggestions made about Ahsoka. Which makes all of this very amusing.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
That sounds stupid.

Nah he continued to train, even becoming a bodyguard and fighting off Sand People. I mean it's said in the beginning of the one issue he hadn't touched a lightsaber in years, but at the end he picks it up again. Then the next issue detailing Obi-Wan, he becomes a bodyguard for Jawas against a horde of Sand People.

He then fights Krrsatan(the Wookiee bounty hunter) in another issue.

I mean it's not really directly stated, but it's shown with Obi-Wan picking up his lightsaber and activating it here and there, implying he did train at least somewhat.

It makes no sense for him not to continue to train, given the harshness of Tatooine.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Isn't there a Scan where ESB Luke Blocks Vader's attempt at ragdolling him ?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5070089-1318046255-2016-.png

Are those comics even Canon? As I understood it, they were more in a grey area. Plus they seemed to contradict the movies a lot...or well at least ROTJ with Boba Fett.

It's in the grey area, yeah. It's not canon, but neither is it non-canon. But what does it contradict? Quotes/scans?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Nah he continued to train, even becoming a bodyguard and fighting off Sand People. I mean it's said in the beginning of the one issue he hadn't touched a lightsaber in years, but at the end he picks it up again. Then the next issue detailing Obi-Wan, he becomes a bodyguard for Jawas against a horde of Sand People.

He then fights Krrsatan(the Wookiee bounty hunter) in another issue.

I mean it's not really directly stated, but it's shown with Obi-Wan picking up his lightsaber and activating it here and there, implying he did train at least somewhat.

It makes no sense for him not to continue to train, given the harshness of Tatooine. And the number of threats posed to Luke by the natives.

Originally posted by Azronger
It's in the grey area, yeah. It's not canon, but neither is it non-canon. But what does it contradict? Quotes/scans?

Well the only contradiction I've seen, is that in the ROTJ one. Boba has a fight with Luke, which is when watching the movie, is clearly an impossibility. Don't got the scans on hand though.

Originally posted by MythLord
Disregarding that any author, director or comic artist would agree people sweeping away other people with hand gestures isn't good entertainment, Dooku is primarily a duelist, and wishes to outfence his opponents primarily if he has the pleasure.

In RotS, which is the only source Dooku was pressed by Kenobi in lightsaber combat, he resorted to his Force abilities and bested Obi-Wan through them.

Notice how many Force users enjoy first outdueling their enemies, then dispatching them with the Force; something even Sidious adheres to. It'd make sense Dooku does as well, especially given his reputation as a master swordsman, master fencer and dedicated combatant.


Of course any author or director could agree to an instant owning. Look at Yoda vs Ventress or Sidious bs Maul brothers..

I buy your theory to an extent, but it's certainly no proof that Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi anytime he likes. Because combatants also like to show their Force dominance as well. It's not all about Sabers. Dooku begins his fight with Anakin in TCW using the Force on more than 1 occasion. By ROTS he k ew Anakin was a handful alone, and looking at that Force push against Kenobi early in the fight, he was out to win any way possible and as early as possible.

He also had no interest in testing his Saber skills in The Lost One.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The new Star Wars comic series confirms that Kenobi didn't practice his saber abilities in exile, by the way.


You're supposed to read to the end of the comic.

Originally posted by Azronger
It's in the grey area, yeah. It's not canon, but neither is it non-canon. But what does it contradict? Quotes/scans?

That's not a grey area. If it's not canon it's non-canon. Simple.

Originally posted by McP
Wen did Vader show a capability to overpower Kenobi handily via TK? He didn't on Mustafar nor on the Death Star.

On Mustafar, he was emotionally conflicted, so he was vulnerable.

On the Death Star, like I explained, Vader was trying to outduel him first like most Force users.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well the only contradiction I've seen, is that in the ROTJ one. Boba has a fight with Luke, which is when watching the movie, is clearly an impossibility. Don't got the scans on hand though.

I know that one. Don't understand how it non-canonizes the whole manga, though. It's just that one fight.

The thing is with the movie version, is the entire fight isn't shown on screen. If you watch ESB, the scene goes back-and-forth from Luke's fight with Vader to adventures with Leia and Chewie, meaning chunks of the fight are left out or are simply left "un-told" the Force push from Vader could have easily happened in one of these intervals, meaning it's canonicity as with everything else in Expanded Universe is "C-level" which is just as legitimate a Galen Marek existing or Boba Fett still being alive.

up

You could make the argument Dooku is a better swordsman than Vader, and up to ANH I wouldn't disgree. Around ESB it becomes a bit more ambiguous since Vader is stated to have improved vastly. However, in Force power, Vader takes the cake decisively.

Yeah, I realize this was a while ago, but from the OP, ANH Vader's abilities really aren't relevant. Vader is confirmed to have grown "far more formidable" from ANH to ESB alone, and then he grew more powerful from ESB to ROTJ. We should also consider just how fast Vader grows.

In TFU, he was =/<Galen Marek, a couple of years later, he was >= a more powerful version of Galen Marek. And keep in mind, that was before growing "far more formidable."

Yes. A million times Yes.

Palpatine ****ed up losing Maul, but REALLY ****ed setting Dooku up.

Vader may have been weakened but he still lost to a sub-Kenobi 'frigate buster.'

Didn't the ROTS novel say Dooku had to spend lavishly of his Force reserves to TK Kenobi?

Nope, that was to fend off Anakin. He TKed Kenobi with a -- wait for it -- whipcrack of power.

Originally posted by MythLord
whipcrack of power