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Fight takes place on Yavin IV, exact same espaces as the first Skywalker-Ventress fight. Start at the same distance, which might be... I dunno; seven meters?

Round One: Force Abilities. They start testing their oponent with the enviorment, and their own aplications of the Living Force, by way of everysingle attack at their disposal.

Round Two: Physical Capabilities: They both jump at each other, after testing the other. The two start giving everything they could with their own Physicallity, and they also don't use the Force, but they do Force Augmentation, Jump and Speed.

Round Three: Lightsaber Duel. A Fierce Fight begins, in which they both use everysingle piece of their dueling capabilities, with every Form they know. (Force Augmented stuff allowed).

All Out: After the Duel, they realize, sabers wouldn't be enough. Not one particular thing would. They would have to give it all.

Who wins?!

Full heal after each round?

Medium Heal. Half of their injuries are gone, no more, no less.

Not sure then.

Too many variables.

I think Asajj takes sabers tho.

Alright, alright. Full Heal.

Sabers: Ventress
Force: Shaak
H2H: idfk
All-out: a few months ago I would have said Shaak, but honestly I'm unsure now.

Force: Shaak.
Sabers: Ventress.
H2H: Ventress.
All Out: Leaning Shaak.

Nova, we're considering the All Out the Deciding-winning factor on this fight. So you say Ti wins?

Let's go back to half heal to screw with everyone.

Asajj

Asajj.

Shaak

I personally go with Ti. (Come fight me, Ching)

Shaak sweeps.

Ventress.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Ventress

gets annihilated.

Originally posted by Geistalt
gets annihilated.

It wouldn't be "annihilated" since she's actually a great match for Ti. They're about on par.

Originally posted by Balta Skywalker
It wouldn't be "annihilated" since she's actually a great match for Ti. They're about on par.

Not when Ti fights on the same tier as a near-Vader fighter, while Ventress gets curb-stomped by Dooku (and even if Felucia was a substantial light side Force nexus that propped Shaak Ti up that far, I highly doubt Galen was hindered by it, what with his "responsibility" "duty" "if I lose, I never deserved to live" attitude).

Originally posted by Geistalt
Not when Ti fights on the same tier as a near-Vader fighter, while Ventress gets curb-stomped by Dooku (and even if Felucia was a substantial light side Force nexus that propped Shaak Ti up that far, I highly doubt Galen was hindered by it, what with his "responsibility" "duty" "if I lose, I never deserved to live" attitude).

Actually, Ti would lose in a pure saber duel.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Not when Ti fights on the same tier as a near-Vader fighter

What is there to suggest a pre-prime Felucia Galen that Shaak fought was near Vader as a fighter?

Originally posted by RHaggis
What is there to suggest a pre-prime Felucia Galen that Shaak fought was near Vader as a fighter?

The fact that he spent 16 years under Vader's tutelage.

He didn't go from 0 to Vader-tier over the course of TFU.

But he still grew noticeably throughout.

Well, Galen as teen prior to TFU was already better than most Knights and Masters according to some sources, and was noted as having a near-perfect fighting style.

Beating Felucia! Galen is still a damn good achievement.

Originally posted by Geistalt
The fact that he spent 16 years under Vader's tutelage.

Just because you're trained by someone for some time doesn't make you them their near equal. By you're logic, Rahm Kota being able to effectively stalemate Galen for a time after his training, makes Kota Vader's near equal. It doesn't quite add up. If you're talking about end game Galen, whom has been noted to improve being on or near Vader level (depends how you interpret the fight) then I'd be inclined to agree, but Felcuia Galen? Nah.

Originally posted by MythLord
Well, Galen as teen prior to TFU was already better than most Knights and Masters according to some sources, and was noted as having a near-perfect fighting style.

Beating Felucia! Galen is still a damn good achievement.

I wasn't doubting it's impressiveness, but rather the idea that Shaak fought a near Vader level combatant in the form of Felucia Galen is rather silly.

Originally posted by MythLord
Beating Felucia! Galenhttp://customstarwars.x3.hu/holokron/shaak_ti_halala_tfu.jpg

Originally posted by RHaggis
I wasn't doubting it's impressiveness, but rather the idea that Shaak fought a near Vader level combatant in the form of Felucia Galen is rather silly.

I wasn't answering you specifically, just arguing it's impressive. Also, Galen at the time was contending with Vader in spars and is at least loosely comparable to his Death Star self that was stalemating Vader.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
http://customstarwars.x3.hu/holokron/shaak_ti_halala_tfu.jpg

She still dominated the fight.

Yeah, she just dropped her keys and had to find them.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, she just dropped her keys and had to find them.

Nah, she was tasting the ground.

Eating the dirt, quite.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Eating the dirt, quite.

She just needed food to keep kicking Galen's butt.

That soil had some good nutritious value in it.

Originally posted by MythLord
That soil had some good nutritious value in it.

The only problem is that it didn't taste that good, apparently, it tasted like rocks.

In the game, Shaak lost to Galen soundly even with the aid of Felucians, and got overpowered in the Force by Galen.

In the comic, Shaak got severely wounded by an omnidirectional telekinetic attack that wasn't even focused on her.

In the novel, Shaak held an edge over him in lightsaber combat throughout the duel, but if it were purely a lightsaber duel it still would've only ended in a stalemate and Galen still bested her from use of the Force.

Sure Galen is above your average Jedi Knight or average Jedi Master as a duelist, but what notable combatant isn't? Sure Galen outdueled Rahm in a close ass duel, but the most Rahm has is being a Juyo practitioner (so is Sirak).

Galen has contended with Vader in spars, great! Pre-Lehon Bane contended with Kas'im in spars and still would've gotten blitzed if Kas'im was going all-out.

Sure Galen matched Vader in a duel at the end of the game, but his duel with Shaak is closer to his duel with Rahm (whose nowhere near Vader), and since Felucia, Galen has been stated to have several power growths, a shift in Force alignment, an increase in skill, and a significant increase in baseline physicality, so Felucia Galen really isn't comparable to end game Galen as a duelist.

Originally posted by MythLord
Also, Galen at the time was contending with Vader in spars and is at least loosely comparable to his Death Star self that was stalemating Vader.

When was it ever stated that he was contending with Vader in spars? If you're referring to this quote...:


Under Vader's relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

... it only states that Vader's training allowed him to perfect his skills, which is a rather broad and vague term which could mean forms and so on... Nothing regarding him being able to contend with his master.

Vader's apprentice was both strong in the Force and incredibly aggressive. As a teenager, the apprentice was already more powerful than many Jedi Knights had been during the Clone Wars, and it was only Darth Vader's incredible power and skill that allowed him to defeat the boy in combat.
-- The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader's apprentice was both strong in the Force and incredibly aggressive. As a teenager, the apprentice was already more powerful than many Jedi Knights had been during the Clone Wars, and it was only Darth Vader's incredible power and skill that allowed him to defeat the boy in combat.
-- The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide

The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated.

- The Force Unleashed Novelisation

So? Galen still contended.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So? Galen still contended.

To a Vader whom was holding back, and thus not going all out. And so Galen at this time isn't a "near Vader combatant".

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So? Galen still contended.

Still, Ti dominated the fight.

Shaak has nothing notable in her repitore here. Galen is simply a trash-tier duelist who gets smacked around by single Imperial Garuds. Any scaling with him as the measuring stick is going to envelope negatively as the seal starts to unravel. Likewise, Vader is also nothing but a crippled half-droid and a shadow of his former self, who can just about stretch his talents far enough for a stalemate with Old Ben, a less powerful and less skilful version of his ATOC self (Fightsaber) , that Assaj had already beaten. Other than that, Ti wins the crown for loosing the most amount of times to Grevious, and in stomps might I add, while Ventress actually stood a chance, and there's little evidence that she got any better from there, nor is there any evidence that she woz-amped on Felucia anymore than Galen Marek would be amped from an unprecedented galactic unbalancing of the Force towards the Darkness.

See you still haven't addressed my debunking of your shit tier arguments in the other thread Ziggy. That's ok. You can run and hide spouting your bullshit elsewhere but and I both know in our hearts that...

Your concession was accepted.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
See you still haven't addressed my debunking of your shit tier arguments in the other thread Ziggy. That's ok. You can run and hide spouting your bullshit elsewhere but and I both know in our hearts that...

Your concession was accepted.

1) Calm down

2) I asked for a better formatted version of your argument in the battlebar, and I addressed the point regarding Galen having "almost perfected lightsaber combat" in quite some depth, your response was absent - you can find that rebuttal here

3) I am perfectly happy to go over it again for the sake of debate, but not if you're going to get overly emotional and start hurling abusive daggers in my direction.

I'll lay out the points as follows :

1) Shaak ti isn't special among the Clone Era days of yore, Ventress is

2) Shaak ti stalemating / edging Galen is her only feat worth mentioning in the same breath

3) Galen gets slapped by random imperial guards

4) Galen having "almost perfected lightsaber combat" is an accolade rooted in arbitrary meaning, why is it any different to Adi Gaila mastering lightsaber combat other than the word "almost" being absent?

5) There is no proof that any of Galen's other opponents are worth two shits in combat, Ventress would sweep them in a gauntletto

6) Galen's crowning achievement is besting Vader, the latter of which is a shadow of his former self and a robotic cripple who can not penetrate the guard of the rusty and out-of-practice Obi Wan Kenobi, nor is he overwhelming a neophyte Luke with TK in ESB.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
http://customstarwars.x3.hu/holokron/shaak_ti_halala_tfu.jpg

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
1) Calm down

2) I asked for a better formatted version of your argument in the battlebar, and I addressed the point regarding Galen having "almost perfected lightsaber combat" in quite some depth, your response was absent - you can find that rebuttal here

3) I am perfectly happy to go over it again for the sake of debate, but not if you're going to get overly emotional and start hurling abusive daggers in my direction.

I'll lay out the points as follows :

1) Shaak ti isn't special among the Clone Era days of yore, Ventress is

2) Shaak ti stalemating / edging Galen is her only feat worth mentioning in the same breath

3) Galen gets slapped by random imperial guards

4) Galen having "almost perfected lightsaber combat" is an accolade rooted in arbitrary meaning, why is it any different to Adi Gaila mastering lightsaber combat other than the word "almost" being absent?

5) There is no proof that any of Galen's other opponents are worth two shits in combat, Ventress would sweep them in a gauntletto

6) Galen's crowning achievement is besting Vader, the latter of which is a shadow of his former self and a robotic cripple who can not penetrate the guard of the rusty and out-of-practice Obi Wan Kenobi, nor is he overwhelming a neophyte Luke with TK in ESB.

1. Um, what?

2. You're not getting a better formatted version if you're referring to me actually quoting your argument. I don't do quotes for anyone.

3. Saying "concession accepted" is hurling abusive daggers? Jesus. How do your survive on this forum?

1. Shaak Ti as of RotS is noted to be one of the more skilled and powerful masters of the Order. She's certainly comparable to Ventress if not her equal.

2. Shaak Ti's notable feat is her accolades of skill and ability to fend of dozens of magnaguards combined with a power that is firmly above both Rahm and Paratus.

3. There's nothing suggesting the Imperial guards were capable of anything but contending for a short period in the comic and it's confirmed that that's as long as they can go up against Galen before being taken out. Regardless the Imperial Guard's ability is not based on their station but their performance and demonstrated feats.

4. Because mastery and perfection are two different levels of ability as I already noted when I posted the example of Mace and Obi Wan's conversation. You would also know that Kas'im had perfected lightsaber combat yet his ability as a lightsaber combatant was limited to his technical ability and ability as a Force user which was why he was on the losing end against Bane with a single blade despite being more skilled.

5. Blanket statement that only applies to a few of the opponents Galen faces.

6. Which clearly refers to potential given there are multiple quotes stating he has become more powerful then he was as Anakin Skywalker and who has logically grew more experienced and skilled due to having nearly two decades of leading the Jedi Purge along with all of Anakin's knowledge and experience.

Originally posted by Balta Skywalker
Still, Ti dominated the fight.

Really? You want to tell that to me?

Welp, lets look over some stuff for Ti, shall we? In the novel, she's painted as a clear superior to Felucia!Galen in just about everything.

She was too fast for him and too strong for him, driving him back with both speed and strength:

"The apprentice simultaneously backflipped and blocked her opening blow. The force of it surprised him, and the recoil threw him backward. His hood caught on one of the sarlacc's teeth, and he tore it impatiently away before the snag could interfere with his defense. Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again.

Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward the mouth of the sarlacc. From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all."

-- TFU novelisation

In truth, Galen's victory came about through a desperate Force Push, and using the Sarlaac to his advantage(ironically) and Galen considered himself lucky to defeat her:

"In desperation, he summoned a bolt of Sith lightning and sent it down, into the flesh of the sarlacc. The beast roared and shook, giving him the opening he needed. Shaak Ti's right foot slipped, forcing her to flip elegantly out of reach of his blade. He leapt after her, swinging as he came."

-- TFU novelisation

"He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her."

-- TFU novelisation

Now some may point to Ti throwing herself onto Galen's blade, something that was a desperate action. But, this was only from Galen's perspective.

Had he not Force Pushed her blade to the side, she would've skewered him before his blade could pierce her. However, as it is, she didn't manage to connect, her blade got pushed away and her continued leap had Galen's blade pierce her.

In any case, the novel makes it clear that Shaak is the superior duelist of the two, and superior physically. The novel also implies Ti's superiority power-wise, because Galen failed to re-awaken the Dark Side that Shaak Ti held at bay on Felucia:

"She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and the dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance. There was still darkness on Felucia, but it was stifled, frustrated, weakened. He strained to awaken it, to remind it of its proper place in the universe. The light side had held sway for far too long."

-- TFU novelisation

And, as per the TFU Campaign Guide, strong Force Agents can influence the balance of Felucia. Yet if Galen truly was more powerful than Ti at the time of his mission to Felucia, why didn't he break her hold on the planet? And before anyone mentions Maris: she didn't hold the planet in sway, Ti's death did, Brood simply turned the Shamans to the Dark Side.

Additionally, Shaak was painted as the superior telepath, breaking Marek's mental hold over the Sarlaac:

"He smiled, letting anger fuel his hatred for her and for all that the Jedi represented. With the dark side behind him, he reached out for the mind of the sarlacc and goaded it to lash out at her.

All the creature did was roar. It resisted him, he realized, with her help."

-- TFU novelisation

And Shaak is the better telekinetic, I would argue. Now granted, Galen's repulse did severely injure her, but there's something I find worth mentioning. Notice how Ti is unprepared for the attack, and she cannot even finish her sentence before the repulse is thrown out. Yet still, she remains unmoved by the attack; indicating whatever passive barrier she had managed to at least weaken the repulse and stop it from hurling her away to oblivion:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5474656-it+sawks.png

To not mention how Galen unleashed an extremely powerful burst of energy and was clearly enraged at the time. Now compare that to this:

http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5474655-hurls+galen.jpg

^ Shaak's casual Force Push manages to hurl back Galen a considerable distance, injure him and leave him floored long enough for her to gather her kinetite energies. What makes it all the better is Ti wasn't enraged, and Galen was actually combat-ready.

It is pretty clear every source, besides the game which has Marek as the GOAT, has Ti in some way beating Galen and him only managing to strike back through desperate means or cheapshots.

Galen at this point was beyond an army buster, contended with Vader in spars, perfected his skill, as a teen was better than most Jedi during the Clone Wars, bested Rahm Kota(a master of Juyo, which only some of the greatest Jedi with high level mastery of multiple forms can practice) and bested Kazdan who had the aid of twelve droids that fought like rough, nerfed versions of the Jedi Council.

Yet she still lost, I wonder why...

Novel has it a desperation tactic, and comic has it a cheapshot. Deal with it, Beni.

Hey, prime Vader is still better than prime Galen who is still considerably better than Shaak, who in turn is better than Felucia!Galen who in turn is considerably better than Rahm Kota.

If anything, bumping up Ti would help the Vader/Marek brigade.

Well since Ziggy isn't responding I figure I might as well address some of the misconceptions Wolf presented here.

OH MY GOD THIS GOT JUICY.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Well since Ziggy isn't responding I figure I might as well address some of the misconceptions Wolf presented here.

Remember the deal.

That's enough out of you Myth, time for an actual analysis, that doesn't cherry pick the parts where Ti was doing well:Marek is caught off-guard and off-balanced by her initial attack. Which is a point for Ti, but its also textbook Ataru to come out gun's blazing in this manner in an attempt to overwhelm your opponent. As your recall Ahsoka opens in a similar way against Darth Vader, and it gives her an initial edge, yet only Quan believes she's better than him.

More to the point, he was off-balanced, and its also likely the unfamiliar and uneven terrain contributed to his disadvantage.Marek tactically retreats to regain his composure but Ti intercedes, using higher ground he sought to avoid her exploiting to drive him back. And again, Ti is going all-out here.By harming the sarlaac Marek is able to regain composure and push Ti, causing Ti, presumably, to lose the height advantage as they fight on even terrain. From this point onward they appear to be at an impasse, with no indication that Shaak Ti held the upper hand, or that Marek was barely fending off her assault.

Ti also uses the sarlaac against him, and the terrain "more treacherous" as the descend deeper. Certainly lending itself to Ti who possesses both experience of the terrain and better spatial awareness.In this final exchange Ti betrays her weakness, attempting to defeat Marek in a final suicidal flurry that demonstrates she was not capable of overwhelming Marek's defences, resorting to an all-out attack that could have at best resulted in their mutual destruction.

And while you can perform as many mental gymnastics as you please to explain away her defeat, the fact is she put herself in a position where all Marek needed to do was raise his blade reflexively to kill her i.e. she left herself completely exposed - she was desperate, period.

Challenge accepted! I bookmarked this page, so you can expect a counter #soon.

That wasn't a challenge, rather a request for you to accept the facts. uhuh

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That wasn't a challenge, rather a request for you to accept the facts. uhuh

You bassically challenged him.

Calm down Balta, I'll spill Myth's blood all the same.

I have no blood to spill. I am not human, I am cancer incarnate.

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1459051223.png

Originally posted by MythLord
I have no blood to spill. I am not human, I am WollfMyth.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1459051223.png

Well. You seem to have this covered Beni and I know I personally hate it when people attempt to come in and double team me.

I'll leave you two to it. *Pouts*

I would be excited at the prospect of taking over for Beni if he fails but honestly that's pretty unlikely given he's likely a superior debater and is taking the stance that the actual events support.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Calm down Balta, I'll spill Myth's blood all the same.

JUST DEBATE, DAMN IT. This is getting interesting.

Sorry, Myth just conceded to me over PM.

When did I PM you?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Um, what?

Indeed.



It's a wise skill to learn in the realm of outdated forum engines, one must ask why it's such a tenuous concept when it's so easy to put in practice. And for the purpose of deciphering which rebuttals are meant for which portions of the argument, it is pretty useful. If that's to hard, then this numbered list of points will do me fine.



Getting salty salty over the failings of fictional characters who serve as disgraces to the continuity, and threatening those who disparage them with physical violence, or at least musing their battered bodies at the end of a knuckle duster, will make me disengage. We are not animals, if you want to be romantic, find passion one topics that bare more importance than SW.



One of the more skilled in an order thousands is far to vague and ambiguous to be defined. It means nothing. It's a token hype that's handed out to everybody and their grandmothers. When a label is distributed among an ever-growing number of lightsaber-swingers, that label looses it's value. It becomes less special when the amount of people who wear it an honour badge is extended to anyone with a name and a lightsaber. Such accolades aren't reliable when rightfully placing someone in a hierarchy. So what are we left with? Well we do know of course, that she's going to be a bit less skilled/powerful than the trio accompanying Windu's arrest warrant, the best of whom was soundly defeated by Ventress in combat. We also know she takes the silver medal when fighting Grievous on Hypori, Kiadi Mundi being the decisive MVP of their squadron. Based off all this, she's not on the elite level with Mace, Yoda and Anakin; as Nick Gillard would call it, the "tier 9's". She's certainly not on par with Obi Wan or Grievous resting firmly in within the 8's and she's not even shoulder to shoulder with people directly below that - Fisto or Kolar. Ventress on the other hand, is a genuine threat to everyone listed, with even Mace Windu needing all his skills to best her. There's no comparison.



Her accolades, as we've just discussed, amount to nothing and the ability to fend a dozen of magnagaurds would be made more impressive if she wasn't struggling with one of them beforehand. Really if this was a valid comparison with all the contextual fixings, you could take Shaak's performance in OCW and extend beyond it's natural limits to assert she's better than the fighting force of Anakin and Obi Wan. But she's not, even against Magnagaurd's, the difference between Shaak Ti with a staff is obvious. Labyrinth of Evil makes it clear that unexpected attack patterns were beyond the programmed limits of Magnagaurds, which explains the the polarised difference in performances when she utilised their weapons, to when she was using her own. As for Rham and Paratus, they're literally nothing. Not until you can clarify what being more powerful than either means.



In the comic, Galen was getting spanked by one of these black faces, the running commentary explaining how he needed to use his surroundinga to get the upper Hand. In both versions of the game, they are made invulnerable to any direct attacks with telekinesis, so it seems to be a pretty ingrained development across all mediums screaming out one clear message, these little douchers are beyond Galen's ability to affect with the Force. And yes, Syndicate, they're fodder. Fodder who can challenge Galen more than once.



I will state it again, clearly you've taken this accolade beyond its natural limits to express how Galen is almost as masterful a Soresu practitioner as Kenobi, only shy from Dooku's From 2 proficiency, comparable to Anakin in the style of Djem So and approaching Mace Windu's defness with Vaapad. I'm sorry to tell you, but for Galen, this clearly isn't the case. It's clear that the word perfection is only being used to produce a relative conviction in the same way mastery is often used to describe lightsaber wielders, in which case, the accolade puts him directly below people like Adi Gaila. I'd also like to know why Galen's lightsaber technique is considered imperfect, because it would explain why the people who can challenge him, have done so with nearing levels of success. All we have here is an ambigious label that can be used to praise the likes of Coleman Trebor - and quite possibly people weaker than him also.



"When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, both combatants know they are but shadows of their former selves." - Source: Lightsaber Article

Which is not the same as : both combatants know they are mere shadows of what they could have been. Trying to conflate this with potential is a pretty desperate measure given it's very clear designation to their combat skill in the past. And if you're arguing that it refer's to Anakin's potential, what's Obi Wans excuse? He didn't suffer grievous injury at the cost of Force connection. He just became old and diminished in skill and ability. Vader is not what he was nor what he could have been, which explains why Old codgers can fight him on an even footing, not too mention neophytes such as Luke, who should be no better than Anakin at the time of Attack of the Clones.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Well since Ziggy isn't responding I figure I might as well address some of the misconceptions Wolf presented here.

Can't a man have some alone time with his throbbing erection?

Of course mein Ziggler. But you should finish in 30 seconds like I do Rather then being an unproductive waste of human sloth.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet she still lost, I wonder why...

Because always the superior combatant wins

Originally posted by MythLord
When did I PM you?
In his wet dreams.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Because always the superior combatant wins Tends to, yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tends to, yeah.

Lmao, just from the movies I can list 4 instances when it's not the case. Educate yourself on the ground realities of SW before opening your mouth in vain, fugg.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/ed9204239ebc64b9de1bbf29aba4c802/tumblr_meqlz9vFpM1rlyc38o1_400.gif

Feeble tacky excuses are what you make every night when you fail to kill yourself.

http://puu.sh/rCddb/1541cff884.jpg

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Because always the superior combatant wins

Still; why does she lose?

Originally posted by Balta Skywalker
Still; why does she lose?

In the game: we don't know.
In the comic: She thought she won and lowered her guard (ala TPM Maul) and got injured, from that point on she wasn't in a position to win so she an hero'd.
In the novel: Cheapshot, plain and simple. Galen got lucky.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
In the game: we don't know.
In the comic: She thought she won and lowered her guard (ala TPM Maul) and got injured, from that point on she wasn't in a position to win so she an hero'd.
In the novel: Cheapshot, plain and simple. Galen got lucky.

Dude, I already knew.

The denial is strong in you Beni. Funny thing is, you only argue against Shaak lately, because your Assoka boner.

Originally posted by Balta Skywalker
Dude, I already knew.

Then why ask?

Lick lick lick my balls

You excited for R&M's return next year Ziggler?

Whose that, a gay porn star?

It's animated gay porn.

Figures.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-08-2016/a9afZh.gif

So elegant. So graceful. A true master.

I didn't know you are this salty Joker.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-08-2016/a9afZh.gif

So elegant. So graceful. A true master.

Just like your ***** Ahsoka

Tbh not sure why Zig, you're using the Shadow Guard feat as something against Galen. In the comic he was hit once and this is because...well his enemy had a greater weapon reach and it's not like the Shadow Guard are just guys to show up and die...they are clearly formidable opponents. As given with their accolades and also novel feats.

Star Wars doesn't have a billion characters like Marvel/DC comics have to face one another, instead they use the universe as a whole as combatants against the main characters. These universal characters, have feats of their own, accolades and so on....much similar to how comic characters do.

This is what separates SW from the latter two comic universes and honestly, it makes it far more interesting as a whole universe.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Tbh not sure why Zig, you're using the Shadow Guard feat


I believe it's called lowballing.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I believe it's called lowballing.

It's not really lowballing, using the comic, the Guard gets one hit and that's just basic fighting...he has the longer weapon reach. Having the longer weapon reach, you can hit your opponent while keeping your distance.

Using the novel, he still pretty much wrecks them.

They put up a fight melee wise, but that's more a feat for them and actually supports what is said about them in terms of accolades and such.

I think Thor's saying that Ziggy's lowballing with the Guard feat.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I think Thor's saying that Ziggy's lowballing with the Guard feat.

Ah. Well still, my points remain about it anyway. I think most can agree there.

Agree completely.

How can Zen after 3 years of KMC be still so f-ucking innocent?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
How can Zen after 3 years of KMC be still so f-ucking innocent?

I dunno.

@Beni I have returned.



That is actually a good point. However, I would like to note the contrast that Tano only gained an edge over Vader by TKing him, whereas Ti simply overwhelmed Galen with strength. But that's irrelevant.



There's one point you're missing here, it is Ti driving him back with a series of fast strikes that was what initially knocked him down and thus gave her the height advantage, hence the wording "driving him back down". This means they were on even footing until Shaak simply drove him back and regained the high ground.



He didn't push Ti, he damaged the Sarlaac and that made her right foot slip and she "flipped elegantly out of reach of his blade" as he came swinging at her:

"In desperation, he summoned a bolt of Sith lightning and sent it down, into the flesh of the sarlacc. The beast roared and shook, giving him the opening he needed. Shaak Ti's right foot slipped, forcing her to flip elegantly out of reach of his blade. He leapt after her, swinging as he came."

The fight also isn't an impasse, it just notes the two drove each other closer to the center ring, and it details how they did it(Marek threw things at Ti and blasted the Sarlaac with lightning, Ti commanded the Sarlaac's tentecles to attack Marek and he deflected it). It should also be noted that Galen was the one making the terrain more trecherous:

" The apprentice was running out of teeth to sever, so he resorted more and more frequently to Sith lightning and random slashes of his lightsaber to keep it twitching underfoot. Thick ichor leaking out of the wounds made the footing even more treacherous."

So there's nothing noting an impasse. In fact, later on neutral ground, after Galen tries to use Dun Moch on Shaak Ti, he barely deflects a blow to the head from Ti:

""Your strength is prodigious," she admitted, "but that is your doing. Light, dark..." She paused to aim a blow at his head that he barely deflected. "They are just directions. Do not be fooled that you stand on anything other than your own two feet.""

Clearly, it's not a stalemate. Now as for the very last part of the duel, Ti easily tags Galen twice and would've tagged him a third time had it not been for, again, a desperate telekinetic push to the side:

"On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice's left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue."

And then what happened? Well since that attack failed, Ti got pierced by a reflexive lightsaber attack from Galen:

"He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue.

She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss.

He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her. He had raised his lightsaber by reflex."

Please draw your attention to how he could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning at one point, but then Ti gasps and drops her blade down once she got pierced, indicating had it not been for that desperate Force Push she would've cut his head off before he could pierce her. Ti being "desperate" is only from Marek's perspective.

It really is that simple. Galen as of his mission to Felucia isn't up to stack with Shaak Ti and that's all there is to it, but Marek later on is definitely more than a match and is her considerable superior. But at this point? Nah, not really.

Originally posted by MythLord
@Beni I have returned.A mistake. Originally posted by MythLord
That is actually a good point. However, I would like to note the contrast that Tano only gained an edge over Vader by TKing him, whereas Ti simply overwhelmed Galen with strength. But that's irrelevant.Actually he was struggling to keep up with her speed.She doesn't knock him down, he leaps down, them leaps up, then Ti drives him back down from higher ground.Which allowed him to push the offensive yeah.Exactly, whereas if Ti had the advantage then she would be driving Marek down alone. In other words the tides and the battle were constantly shifting. And that's just an extract from the fight, they obviously weren't doing that on a loop.In response to Ti using the sarlaac against him, and I doubt he intended to make the terrain disadvantageous, which would harm him more than Ti for reasons explained.One blow is hardly indicative of the mood of the entire fight, lol. What evidence is there that Ti wasn't struggling also?I've addressed this already:And I see nothing more to add.And yet succeeding in killing her anyway, despite Ti having every advantage, because he was better. It is indeed, quite simple.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-08-2016/CUAMyu.gif

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-08-2016/CUAMyu.gif

As if Ventress'd fare any better.

The gif was more in response to the claim Ti was better than Galen, my love.

7) First of all, that excerpt says nothing about them working better in tandem. Second of all, and I do think that this is a point you'll agree with, it's pretty hard to place trusted thought in a text claiming not only that Magnagaurd's are relativistic in speed, but also that they're beyond Obi Wan's ability to defeat. Both are blatant mistruths used to amalgamate tension where a screen and hours of special affects are absent. Of course, what we're reading is not a fact based text, but rather the narrative perspective of Obi Wan(?) flawed and fail-able as it is, and certainly less reliable than a detailed account of their capabilities from the head of Count Dooku(?) If I may :

"Grievous was fast, and so were his IG 100-series sparring partners. They had the advantage of size and brute strength. They executed moves almost faster than the human eye could follow. Their thrusts and lunges demonstrated a singular lack of hesitancy. Once committed to a maneuver, they never faltered. They never stopped to recalculate their actions. Their weapons went exactly where they meant them to go. And they always aimed for points beyond their opponents in order to slice clear through.

Dooku had taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling - - in the Jedi arts - - made them lethal opponents. But they were not invincible, not even Grievous, because they could be confused by unpredictability, and they had no understanding of finesse. A player of dejarik could memorize all the classic openings and countermoves, and still not be a master of the game. Defeat often came at the hands of less experienced players who knew nothing about the traditional strategies. A professional fighter, a combat artist, could be defeated by a cantina brawler who knew nothing about form but everything about ending a conflict quickly, without a thought to winning gracefully or elegantly. Enslavement to form opened one to defeat by the unforeseen. This was often the failing of trained duelists, and it would be the failing of the Jedi Order."

- Labyrinth of Evil

Which explains why there's such a varying difference between Shaak engaging one Maganguard with her lightsaber, to when she starts using their own weapon against several of them. Clearly this was not a threat they had been programmed for yet, as they became metallic statues when presented with such a radical change in methodology, and given the vast disparity in performance, I do believe the inherent defectiveness of finesse and inflexible programming allowed her to contend with so many.




8) So in other words, nothing special?



9) The fact that his disposal tactic was rooted in theatricality and deception implies one of two things; that he can't defeat these blackfaces via conventional means, or it's simply a rather hefty challenge for him to do so. What's worse, is that the comic indicates this guy being better than Flailen in a traditional sword fight. As another point, the guard is made invulnerable to direct telekinesis in both versions of the game, the Wii-theme literally highlighting that concept in text assisting the player, so Galen's imminent challenge rising from these pitch-forked lackeys can literally be found everywhere in clear attempt to define his limits. He can't stomp anyone and he never will. Ultimately this means Galen can be challenged by randoms, people who aren't even worthy of a few character's purpose of distinction, and his other preliminary foes are not that much better - Maris Brood, Kota. Shaak was perhaps the only person that worthy of the breath it takes to say her name, because there is some indication of her skills, and while she clearly wasn't batting in the top echelons in her era, she could at least be named in among a horde of alien Jedi as someone of note. I hope you get what I'm saying, the Slayin Marek could be seen as something detracting from her abilities, not complimenting them, especially if we're to accept the idea that she woz amped on Nexus. The whole ordeal makes me think she became weaker much like Kenobi, Yoda and Maul (yeah, sorry he sucks worse now than ever) than that she grew in power, and there's too many comparisons cementing that idea.



10) I believe the quote states, that he all but perfected lightsaber combat. Which is certainly no accolade worthy of Obi Wan and Anakin as a part of the "greatest duelists ever" group, but given that the entire council is sorted in the having mastered lightsaber combat tier, which would be whats given to Gay-len, is a testament to the rather vast sampling group the respective author is utilizing. Unless you want to tell me that, let's say, Coleman Trebor is on par with Galen Marek?



Not unintentionally either.




11a) Yeah, a shadow of their former selves is referring specifically to their former selves, not their potential selves or a shadow of what they could have been under the right circumstances. This point is ignorant of English Language and wishes to confuse the meaning of former, when there's nothing to be confused. As for the master and apprentice dialogue, Obi Wan's comments on the matter can be immediately disregarded as he certainly is not referring to power in a combative sense, a lewd mistake that goes against the most classical grain of Star Wars, given the iconic line of becoming more powerful than ever in death is figurative, and not something that can be gauged in versus thread. Clearly Obi Wan's philosophy and concept over the word power isn't synonymous with someone capable of dealing massive amounts damage to the physical realm. May I enlighten you.

"Your powers are weak," Vader noted emotionlessly. "Old man, you should never have come back. It will make your end less peaceful than you might have wished."

"You sense only a part of the Force, Darth," Kenobi murmured with the assurance of one to whom death is merely another sensation, like sleeping or making love or touching a candle. "As always, you perceive its reality as little as a utensil perceives the taste of food."

11b) Ben-Wan is certainly weaker than he was in ROTS, and according to the Fightsaber article, weaker than possibly his AOTC self, given that the article was released before the third and final prequel was produced. I don't see that as being too unreasonable. His ability to command the force in a physical sense is diminished, and his skill with a blade taken him from being the aforementioned master of a fighting style, to just being formidable with said style. Secondly, the comment made in Beware the Sith does not state that Vader's become more powerful, just more experienced and powerful, rather than more experienced and more powerful. I don't think anyone's going to argue that he's less experienced, seen as the word experience is defined as a process of doing and seeing things or having things happen to you over time. Given this fact, he can not be less experienced than his younger and more powerful self, unless there's an episode of amnesia that permanently affected his memory, something I don't seem to recall. What Vader does have, is the loss of living tissue and the obstruction of metal appendages making it harder to call on the Force in a fight. The post-suit groupies regularly lament Telekinesis as something that's seen a stock increase after loss of limb and mutilation. To that, I say look at the infamous dreadnought feat, if combat is decided on grand-scale manipulations than Jedi-Learner Anakin takes all, as does Obi Wan, as does Ventress.

Tomorrow.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
It's not really lowballing, using the comic, the Guard gets one hit and that's just basic fighting...he has the longer weapon reach. Having the longer weapon reach, you can hit your opponent while keeping your distance.

Using the novel, he still pretty much wrecks them.

They put up a fight melee wise, but that's more a feat for them and actually supports what is said about them in terms of accolades and such.

Longer reach comes at the expense of less manoeuvrability. In the case of what appears to be a lightsaber-pike, the movements one is restricted to requires the full contortion of their torso, as a oppose to the standard-issue lightsaber that can execute a full arc with a flick of the wrist. Which do think is more important when handling a weightless sword? The advantages of greater reach are obvious, you can keep an uninitiated foe at fair distance, assuming they're not skilled enough to come inside your guard. And this is why a literal spanking is a befitting consequence for Galen - because he's too shit for to breach their defences. For everything else, their accolades are nothing of note, once again. Nothing past the mindless henchman-status one can assume for adepts bereaved character, names, and apparently assigned numerical value, which would be far too honouring of such common and lackluster warriors. This is a bad showing, and yes, they exist Wolf.

Yeah bad showings exist, but getting hit once doesn't mean the character sucks. If that's true, then every single character that got hit by anything other than another character sucks.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah bad showings exist, but getting hit once doesn't mean the character sucks.

People won't understand that here.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah bad showings exist, but getting hit once doesn't mean the character sucks. If that's true, then every single character that got hit by anything other than another character sucks.

Wrong Zenwolf, for someone who's latent dialect is regurgitating poorly formatted and respect threads without context or clarification, you certainly know how to Strawman the living crap out of other peoples arguments. If Flailen could flail his lightsaber half as well as the Force Unlasher's daydream he can, then he would have near-instantly breached shadowman's stark-rigid guard, that requires his full body to pivot in the vain effort to cut a semi-circle. My guesses is that Gaylen's only attempt at such straight forward tactics was answered with by blunt end of Phrik-based hilt to the face, so he needed to find another way round him.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Wrong Zenwolf, for someone who's latent dialect is regurgitating poorly formatted and respect threads without context or clarification

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Wrong Zenwolf, for someone who's latent dialect is regurgitating poorly formatted and respect threads without context or clarification.

My RT have context and clarification, no idea what you're talking about.

Finished my tests, for now. I found time to respond.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Actually he was struggling to keep up with her speed.

I was more referring to her strength off-balancing him, but yeah also speed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
She doesn't knock him down, he leaps down, them leaps up, then Ti drives him back down from higher ground.

Yeah, she drives him from higher ground when he already ascended it, which means she was at the advantage when the two were on neutral ground.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which allowed him to push the offensive yeah.

An offense Ti dodged elegantly, apparently, and then reduce the fight in, at best, an impasse.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exactly, whereas if Ti had the advantage then she would be driving Marek down alone.

In other words the tides and the battle were constantly shifting. And that's just an extract from the fight, they obviously weren't doing that on a loop.

They obviously weren't doing that in a loop, but it seems to note how that's the primary reason they achieved driving each other closer down.

Additionally, Ti only resorted to using the Sarlaac when Marek started throwing objects at her with TK. Nothing here notes the two were even. Marek used TK, Shaak used Beast Control, Galen then used lightning and that's about it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In response to Ti using the sarlaac against him, and I doubt he intended to make the terrain disadvantageous, which would harm him more than Ti for reasons explained.

Actually, he used lightning in response to having no more teeth to throw at Ti. And I don't think Ti wouldn't be affected by the sudden change of terrain, since it became more treacherous in ways even Shaak couldn't predict.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
One blow is hardly indicative of the mood of the entire fight, lol. What evidence is there that Ti wasn't struggling also?

I counted one blow he barely blocked and two more he couldn't block. Seems to set the mood in Ti's favour, especially when every time Galen tries to tag her she either blocks or dodges(well, besides the last blow, but we've been over that already).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I've addressed this already:
And I see nothing more to add.

And I've also addressed it. There was nothing desperate about it. If he hadn't pushed the blade aside, Marek would've been decapitated before Shaak could get pierced. The only thing you could argue is "desperate" about it is Ti overextended herself, but that happens often to superior combatants(I can cite Tano pushing Vader, Sora Bulq getting sliced by Quinlan Vos, Stryfe and Sazen killing each other in one blow).

The point is the risk would've payed off if Marek didn't use a lucky Force Push. This means Galen was challenging Ti, but I never doubted that.

Also, besides knowledge of terrain, Ti really didn't have much of an outside advantage.

Are you ****ing kidding me?! The text makes it blatantly clear that Shaak would've been impaled regardless of whether or not Marek stopped her blade with TK.

Galen stabbed her by reflex, how would've he done that if he's dead?

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, she drives him from higher ground when he already ascended it, which means she was at the advantage when the two were on neutral ground.From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all.

If they were on even ground Ti wouldn't have the advantage of height, which the text makes clear Marek attempted, but failed, to prevent her from gaining.I wasn't suggesting it was a show of superiority for Marek, merely pointing out that Marek regained equal footing with Ti. After which point they appear to be at indeed an impasse.Not in the slightest:

The fight progressed around the sarlacc's center rings, blow and counterblow accompanied by the roaring of the beast. The apprentice cut off teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary's head. In return she took tighter control of the beast's distributed intelligence and sent its food-seeking tentacles flailing for him. He repulsed them and fought on.

Down they drove each other...

It's just an extract from the fight, in which they were raining "blow and counterblow" upon each other, and after a brief Force exchange fought on.

The fact that neither of them were driven anywhere by this exchange pretty much debunking the idea regardless.And I never suggested it did, you are the one honing in on their particular extract. What I did note however is how Ti was using her control over the terrain to her advantage.Fair I misread that, but switching up the manner in which he used the environment to off-balance Ti in response to the shifting terrain does not necessarily suggest he was at a disadvantage, merely employing all the tools he had at his disposal.

And I never said she wouldn't be also disadvantaged, just not to the same extent.He appears to struggle with her initial assault yes, but I've already gone over that, a combination of stylistic factors and terrain advantage were responsible. But within the overall contexts of both Marek and Ti 'driving each other down' I don't think it demonstrates conclusive superiority at all.

And the fact that Ti was able to block (or evade) Marek's attacks means nothing, as so did he, but nothing suggests she did so easily or easier than he did.You didn't dear. And as for those citations, please go on, because overextending as you put it, to the point where your opponent simply having their weapon upheld equates to certain death, still strikes me as desperate, despite these supposed pay offs. Or in other words, Marek's first hand assessment remains accurate.Aside from a powerful Force nexus yeah. But then she the act of 'holding back da darkness' was draining her amirite?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Galen stabbed her by reflex, how would've he done that if he's dead? By stabbing her at the same time she stabbed him? Like Marek says, mutually assured destruction.

So the argument that Shaak wouldn't have been impaled because she would've speared Galen's head before he could've raised his lightsaber is bullshit.

"He had raised his lightsaber by reflex. She had, in the desperation of her final assault, practically thrown herself on the blade. Perhaps she had meant for the two of them to defeat each other at the same time."

You can argue this is from Galen's point of view, but as flawed as limited perspectives are, Galen isn't a complete retard. He's cognizant enough to know whether or not he raised his blade after blocking Shaak's lightsaber strike with the Force, and from this perspective (ie., he clearly ****ing didn't raise it after blocking her barrier) it's clear Galen's blade was in that position before her blade would've pierced him, and possibly before Shaak leapt at him to begin with.

And as far as how the comic fight ended, Shaak was in a fight and she realized some sketchy shit with Galen was going on so clearly she would've raised a barrier, which is apparent by the fact that she wasn't flung several meters back, and yet she still got severely wounded by an omnidirectional telekinetic strike (so it wasn't even focused on her) that had to tear through a meat shield of sarlacc tentacles before hitting her. And as far as the argument that Galen was "rage amped" Shaak felt his power fading beforehand because he was being slowly crushed by a bunch of tentacles, so if anything, Galen was actually hindered at the time.

^

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-08-2016/CUAMyu.gif

https://i.imgflip.com/1c9h4b.gif

Lmao

The debate ended here, why is it still continuing?

Ventress, kewl fight though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The debate ended here, why is it still continuing?

Wondering the same. What's more impressive to me is that I left for two months, and now that I go back I see that this debate kept on and on.

Ventress.

ventress, ti has been getting some ridiculous underserved hype of late

Ventress 10/10