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It's time to put the fanfics about Vitiate dominating eight thousand Sith to rest.

First, the feat itself:
Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims.

-Darth Nyriss, The Old Republic: Revan

It would be impressive if not for the fact that they were told by Darth Nyriss, a Sith Lord who lived over a thousand years after the event. She couldn't possibly know if the historical records are correct, or she may have fabrcated the tale entirely. In short, her word isn't reliable.

Second, there are multiple versions of this story:
An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality.

-Force and Destiny

Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries.

-The Old Republic Encyclopedia

What is known is that following the flight of Naga Sadow, the Emperor came to Korriban, gathered the remaining lords of the Sith and took them back with him to Nathema. There they conducted a ritual that extended the Emperor's life at the cost of the lives of more than eight thousand Sith Lords. The Ritual of Nathema is celebrated among Imperial scholars as a rare and amazing coming together of Sith for the good of the Empire.

-The Old Republic Codex: The Ritual of Nathema

In Force and Destiny, no mention of any domination is made. In TORE and the Codex, the notion of Vitiate dominating the Sith is outright contradicted by them agreeing to it willingly. The word of Darth Nyriss isn't any more valid than any other Imperial scholar's. All three of these works also came after Revan, and all of them agree on the fact that no domination ever happened, so we can safely treat is as a retcon.

And lastly, all word-of-mouth feats have officially been declared non-canon within the Legends timeline. This is the nail in the coffin:
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5415640-legends+are+not+canon.png

Interesting. I'd actually thought the evidence against it was stronger than this. The only one mildly contradicting it is the one saying they agreed to perform the ritual. But that doesn't actual contradict the feat itself. He could of done it after that point or it could be that he forced them into agreement. So really not actually solid at all.

Very, very interesting. Thank you for posting these.

Darth Nyriss investigated the matter and even visited Nathema for the said purpose. Her account cannot be dismissed without solid evidence to the contrary.

You are overlooking the fact that the ritual (in focus) spanned 10 days in duration. There was ample time to telepathically enslave the participants during the course of the ritual.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Originally posted by Nephthys
Interesting. I'd actually thought the evidence against it was stronger than this. The only one mildly contradicting it is the one saying they agreed to perform the ritual. But that doesn't actual contradict the feat itself. He could of done it after that point or it could be that he forced them into agreement. So really not actually solid at all.

Stronger than literally stating it's non-canon? Lmao.



You're welcome.

Originally posted by Azronger
Stronger than literally stating it's non-canon? Lmao.

This is the EU forum. Within the context of Swtor it's no less non-canon than anything else.

Tell me! Why would the participants want to commit suicide for the benefit of Vitiate?

kys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Nyriss investigated the matter and even visited Nathema for the said purpose. Her account cannot be dismissed without solid evidence to the contrary.

Proof she investigated and did not simply fabricate the tale? And there is solid evidence to the contrary: the fact that it's non-canon.



So what? The fact is he didn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is the EU forum. Within the context of Swtor it's no less non-canon than anything else.

Force and Destiny is Legends. All that's said in it applies to TOR, whether you like it or not. Nyriss' tale is non-canon. Accept it.

Originally posted by Azronger
Proof she investigated and did not simply fabricate the tale? And there is solid evidence to the contrary: the fact that it's non-canon.



So what? The fact is he didn't.
The whole canon vs non-canon debate doesn't applies to TOR content anymore. It is all official.

See my question above.

Originally posted by Sinious
kys

Me or LeGenD?

Originally posted by Azronger
Force and Destiny is Legends. All that's said in it applies to TOR, whether you like it or not. Nyriss' tale is non-canon. Accept it.

You're adorable.

me

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Tell me! Why would the participants want to commit suicide for the benefit of Vitiate?

Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

Apparently they had no idea what was truly going to happen to them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're adorable.

And you're in denial.

Originally posted by Sinious
me

Do you have anything constructive to share?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The whole canon vs non-canon debate doesn't applies to TOR content anymore. It is all official.

See my question above.

Based on what does Force and Destiny not apply to TOR?

Originally posted by Azronger
Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

Apparently they had no idea what was truly going to happen to them.
They could agree because they were dominated.

I don't see any contradiction. Vitiate is BAMF.

Originally posted by Azronger
Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

Apparently they had no idea what was truly going to happen to them.
Doesn't it surprise you that Vitiate managed to convince 8000 Sith to participate in a ritual?

I don't think that Sith are that obedient. Those Sith were not on the same page for choosing a leader even (i.e. Naga Sadow versus Ludo Kressh).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Nyriss investigated the matter and even visited Nathema for the said purpose. Her account cannot be dismissed without solid evidence to the contrary.

You are overlooking the fact that the ritual (in focus) spanned 10 days in duration. There was ample time to telepathically enslave the participants during the course of the ritual.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

How does visiting Nathema magically let Nyriss know whether the sith involved in the ritual one thousand years ago did it willingly?

Your point about duration just establishes possibility, it doesn't actually suggest anything.

Originally posted by Azronger
Do you have anything constructive to share? My posts in this thread are more constructive than yours as minimalistic as they are.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They could agree because they were dominated.

I don't see any contradiction. Vitiate is BAMF.

If they were dominated, then Vitiate wouldn't have had to feed them lies about "an ultimate dark side weapon". It is very much a contradiction, as is this:

The Ritual of Nathema is celebrated among Imperial scholars as a rare and amazing coming together of Sith for the good of the Empire.

Any proof Nyriss is more reliable than multiple other Imperial scholars?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Doesn't it surprise you that Vitiate managed to convince 8000 Sith to participate in a ritual?

I don't think that Sith are that obedient. Those Sith were not on the same page for choosing a leader even (i.e. Naga Sadow versus Ludo Kressh).

Well, Vitiate is supposed to be a ripoff of Palpatine who managed to fool 10000 Jedi, so...

Originally posted by Azronger
If they were dominated, then Vitiate wouldn't have had to feed them lies about "an ultimate dark side weapon". It is very much a contradiction, as is this:

The Ritual of Nathema is celebrated among Imperial scholars as a rare and amazing coming together of Sith for the good of the Empire.

Any proof Nyriss is more reliable than multiple other Imperial scholars?
That is what Vitiate wanted them to believe.

Why do you think that anybody even suspected of discovering Nathema mysteriously vanished?

The novel goes to great lengths to elaborate a point; that Vitiate was deceiving his Sith followers. He could not be trusted.

Darth Nyriss and a few other members of the Dark Council somehow discovered Nathema and learned more about his past from there. They decided to overthrow Vitiate due to that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why Vitiate was trying to conceal Nathema than?

Conceal it from whom?



Bingo!



That still doesn't validate Nyriss' tale, which is still non-canon.

Originally posted by Azronger
Any proof Nyriss is more reliable than multiple other Imperial scholars?

Lol, Nyriss' words weren't censored by Vitiate. If anything them saying that makes our case stronger.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, Nyriss' words weren't censored by Vitiate. If anything them saying that makes our case stronger.

And the Imperial scholars' were?

So what's the argument here? 8000 sith lords willingly gave their mental faculties to over to a stranger? I somehow, find that very hard to believe.

Uh, duh. You think intellectual freedom is a thing in the Empire?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So what's the argument here? 8000 sith lords willingly gave their mental faculties to over to a stranger? I somehow, find that very hard to believe.

Read POD and believing it will become much easier.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So what's the argument here? 8000 sith lords willingly gave their mental faculties to over to a stranger? I somehow, find that very hard to believe. Well, how many Sith were alive in the galaxy overall? Millions? Keep in mind that they all inhabited multiple planets (while the 7,000,000,000 of us only inhabit one), and that the vast majority of Sith were Force-sensitive.

wut?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
wut? There were probably hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Sith Lords that were alive back then.

Ok?

Your point, Geisalt?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They could agree because they were dominated.

I don't see any contradiction. Vitiate is BAMF.

Only if we interpret the English language dishonestly. Agreeing to do something and being forced to do something are mutually exclusive.

What's your take on this, Temp?

Originally posted by Azronger
What's your take on this, Temp?

The rational one, per usual.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They could agree because they were dominated.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if we interpret the English language dishonestly. Agreeing to do something and being forced to do something are mutually exclusive.

Never heard of being forced to agree?

It's a pretty common phrase, in the English language at least.

Sure have. And like many other commonly used phrases and idioms, it's not precise.

Doesn't need to hit a dartboard. Still exists. You can be forced into agreeing to do something against your will. Just like you will soon be forced into agreeing that I am right/a genius.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Doesn't need to hit a dartboard. Still exists. You can be forced into agreeing to do something against your will. Just like you will soon be forced into agreeing that I am right/a genius.

The only thing I'm forced to do at the moment is carefully reconsider the idea that you actually have a college degree in writing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Doesn't need to hit a dartboard. Still exists. You can be forced into agreeing to do something against your will. Just like you will soon be forced into agreeing that I am right/a genius. Lol, via persuasive reasoning (so a fat chance of that happening here), that remains a decision you make of your own free will.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol, via persuasive reasoning (so a fat chance of that happening here), that remains a decision you make of your own free will.

Somebody gets it.

Neph, as a reader of the Bane trilogy, why is it that you can't see see a situation similar to the Brotherood of Darkness and the storm ritual?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only thing I'm forced to do at the moment is carefully reconsider the idea that you actually have a college degree in writing.

Its a university degree actually. I'll respond tomorrow.

We're waiting with bated breath.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its a university degree actually. I'll respond tomorrow. With your certificate or an argument? I'd like to see both.

LeGenD, Ziggy, and Ant appear to have conceded. Let's see what you have to offer, Neph.

Well, I wasn't really arguing, but Vitiate's gone down in my estimations anyway.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol, via persuasive reasoning (so a fat chance of that happening here), that remains a decision you make of your own free will.

Lol, you're trying to get philosophical about free will here? That isn't necessary. "To agree" to something all you need is to "have the same opinion about something; concur." or "to say that one will do something which has been suggested by another person" or "reach agreement about (something) after negotiation." Whether or not they reached an agreement by their own will is irrelevant. Whether or not their opinion was forcible changed to match Vitiate's is irrelevant. Whether or not they said they'd partake in the ritual freely is irrelevant.

But if you don't care about the actual definitions, then I'll just say that them merely stating agreement would satisfy the burden of the quote. Regardless of if they did so freely in their own minds, as long as they said it doesn't matter.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Neph, as a reader of the Bane trilogy, why is it that you can't see see a situation similar to the Brotherood of Darkness and the storm ritual?

What do you mean?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
With your certificate or an argument? I'd like to see both.

I live in Glastonbury. If you'd like to pop by you're welcome to.

It took you 12 hours to come up with that? Yikes.
If they had the same opinion about the ritual as Vitiate, there'd have been no need to mindrape them. If it required negotiation and persuasion, then they had a choice... which means we've now circled back to the inevitable conclusion.

Could you use the next 12 hours to make a good case?

I was asleep and then I had a wank and watched some video's. Believe it or not, you're not my first priority when I wake up. I'd suggest I not be yours since you clearly suffer in the mornings.

They had the same opinion after he forced them to. They reached an agreement after he forced them to. Try again.

I asked you for a good case, Neph, not a refresher course on why everyone here thinks you're a shit debater.

Take the 12 hours.

Neph if stating the obvious equates to getting philosophical in your books then I really worry about your IQ.

If your are forced into doing something against your will, the fact that you disagree with the act is implicit. And overruling your ability to decide (via in this case mental domination) doesn't change the fact you remain in disagreement, only circumvents your opinion and intentions.

So no, if they agreed to the ritual they evidently were wilful participants, and any other reading through whatever mental gymnastics is indeed, disingenuous.

Neph, how well do you think your "they technically agreed to it because I forced them to agree to it!" would work in court?

You're playing mental gymnastics with the language to support a clearly misleading, if not grammatically incorrect, conclusion, all so that you can justify the arbitrary opinion of Nyriss one thousand years after the fact.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Neph if stating the obvious equates to getting philosophical in your books then I really worry about your IQ.

If your are forced into doing something against your will, the fact that you disagree with the act is implicit. And overruling your ability to decide (via in this case mental domination) doesn't change the fact you remain in disagreement, only circumvents your opinion and intentions.

So no, if they agreed to the ritual they evidently were wilful participants, and any other reading through whatever mental gymnastics is indeed, disingenuous.

The point is that arguing about whether or not an agreement can exist without free will is irrelevant sophistry.

As I showed, whether or not you're willingly agreeing doesn't matter. The definition of an agreement is clear and it does not preclude a forced agreement. All that an agreement requires are the factors I provided. Regardless of their original opinions, if Vitiate dominated them, they would still share his own afterwards. Regardless of what they said previously, if they said they would participate after Vitiate's influence, they would still be agreeing to participate.

Nope. As shown, you can agree to something against your will. Vitiate's mental control has once again failed to be contradicted. Try try again.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Neph, how well do you think your "they technically agreed to it because I forced them to agree to it!" would work in court?

You're playing mental gymnastics with the language to support a clearly misleading, if not grammatically incorrect, conclusion, all so that you can justify the arbitrary opinion of Nyriss one thousand years after the fact.

I'm not in court and neither was Vitiate. We don't need to worry about legalities. An agreement exists even if it was forced. Whether or not it would be upheld doesn't change the fact that it existed in the first place.

LOL! The whole argument is based around a single word, of course we're going to argue around how that word can be interpreted. As I have shown the strict dictionary definition doesn't take into account anything that would contradict Nyriss' version of events. You're just trying to dismiss a feat that you don't like regardless of how flimsy of a contradiction you can get.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The point is that arguing about whether or not an agreement can exist without free will is irrelevant sophistry.Sophistry is exactly what your trying to pull here yes, the obvious reading of "agreed to partake in a ritual" being indeed obvious - wilful participation. On the other hand exploiting technicalities to force a reading hardly makes for a compelling argument. In which their remains a contradiction in terms between being of a differing mind to the suggested action i.e. disagreeing, and to take up the suggestion regardless. Whether or not they appeared to or even said they would agree aside, it was in fact, by Nyriss' estimation, against their will. Disagreement is again, implicit.

And as Temp pointed out from the start, these are mutually exclusive terms.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
all so that you can justify the arbitrary opinion of Nyriss one thousand years after the fact.

👍
Nyriss flat out says the legends around Vitiate are unverifiable, her words mean nothing.

But I'm still waiting for Neph to make the strong case about consent/force.

Quite, we can debate whether or not there is a contradiction here indefinitely, but the fact remains Neph lacks any solid proof regardless.

And my point about Vitiate lying to them about "an ultimate dark side weapon" still stands. If he could dominate, there'd be no need for lies.