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No TP, no super-vaapad

15 meters

The duo, for a majority. IMHO, Dooku|Windu >/= drugged, tortured Revan on a DS nexus, against a DSider. And the other one shits on Novel Meetra.

Vitiate solidly

No member of the duo is even close to Revan (Reborn) in raw power and mastery of the Force. On top of this, absence of Vaapad hurts Mace Windu's chances even more.

Team doesn't need mastery of the Force when they have lightsabers.

The team.

Originally posted by Azronger
Team doesn't need mastery of the Force when they have lightsabers.
That does not guarantees victory...

That version of Revan should be slightly inferior to either Mace or Dooku. Team takes this with less then moderate difficulty.

Originally posted by McP
That version of Revan should be slightly inferior to either Mace or Dooku. Team takes this with less then moderate difficulty.


I do not see the possibility of Mace Windu or Count Dooku dismissing Darth Nyriss in single combat like Revan. Not even close.

Revan is implied to be more powerful than even Darth Nihilus in the novel.

Originally posted by McP
That version of Revan should be slightly inferior to either Mace or Dooku. Team takes this with less then moderate difficulty.
What?

Mace did better against Sidious than Revan did Vitiate. Umad?

Team.

Revan, Meetra, and red-faced are very much inferior to this team, and that one pretty much had 50-50 shot at victory.

@Ant
Due to my powerscaling. Sidious as of ROTS > any Sith before him. I consider prime!Vitiate as marginally inferior, but still in the same league. A few years ago, novel!Vitiate was his only/best version. Then more and more version of him from TOR, which push novel!Vitiate below and below and below, until he became closer to Vader then Sidious imo. Or his boost in power from one version to another wasn't that big, and he's still closer to Sidious, I don't care. Anyway, Mace did better against stronger enemy then Revan, and so did Dooku. Ergo they are his superiors by small margin, but still.

Originally posted by McP
@Ant
Due to my powerscaling. Sidious as of ROTS > any Sith before him. I consider prime!Vitiate as marginally inferior, but still in the same league. A few years ago, novel!Vitiate was his only/best version. Then more and more version of him from TOR, which push novel!Vitiate below and below and below, until he became closer to Vader then Sidious imo. Or his boost in power from one version to another wasn't that big, and he's still closer to Sidious, I don't care. Anyway, Mace did better against stronger enemy then Revan, and so did Dooku. Ergo they are his superiors by small margin, but still.
Revan performed significantly better than Windu, and Dooku was instantly choked by Palpatine.

Revan would utterly annihilate Dooku in seconds, and likewise dominate Windu with his Force powers.

Anyone capable of ashing a Force sensitive approaching Dooku's caliber (i.e. Darth Nyriss) is clearly beyond Dooku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace did better against Sidious than Revan did Vitiate. Umad?
The Revan Brigade is making its final war. You can't stop what must be done.

Dooku was possibly off-guard against Sidious. Yoda has similar level of TK, and was unable to stop Dooku (and I doubt, that Yoda wasn't trying hard, since he was aware, that stoping Dooku could make this war very short). And no, Windu did much better, against stronger enemy. When Sidious' inferior decided to be serious, he nearly stomped Revan.

Originally posted by McP
Dooku was possibly off-guard against Sidious.
He was still completely incapable of breaking free.


Yoda's game is rarely to best an opponent with the Force. It's not like he tried and failed - he never even tried. He repelled all of Dooku's attacks, and then quickly bested him with a lightsaber.


No, that's not true.

Revan absorbed almost all of Vitiate's energies. He turned lightning that was "infinitely" more powerful of ashing Darth Nyriss to something that only gave him second-degree burns. In other words, he nearly completely dissipated the lightning, but Vitiate's lightning just *quite* overmatched him. When recognizing they were on a nexus, and that Vitiate channeled his energy for more time, it's possible Revan would have completely handled the attack.

To put some context on the difference, exposure to 176 degrees F for .1 seconds still yields curable third-degree burns. But then at 200, it's incurable. In contrast, a body is ashed in 1400 degrees F for 1 to 3 hours. So yeah, a near-unprecedented distinction that Revan closed.

Likewise, handling lightning with a lightsaber is significantly easier than doing it with tutaminis, in which it has been stated to be "nearly impossible." The fact Windu could handle Palpatine's lightning with his lightsaber suggests it clearly wasn't *that* powerful, since Vitiate's lightning was powerful enough to overcome a lightsaber, thus why Revan opted to use tutaminis. Palpatine was faking with the lightning, and thus not unleashing his full power, which was stated by Lucas.

Little nitpick, I don't think this was ever stated by Lucas, more to the point, the opposite might have been implied by someone working on the film whilst in his presence. I know not of the specifics, but a direct statement from Lucas of this nature would have certainly ended many discussions and settled long debated scores since 2005.

I'm pretty sure he said Palpatine began faking and exaggerating his weakness at the end of the fight. I can look for a quote if needed.

It's not too hard to believe that Dromund Kass could have elevated Vitiate's lightning above Palpatine's.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He was still completely incapable of breaking free.

Yeah, that's natural. Ani/Obi were unable to break Ventress' choke, Dooku and Ventress couldn't break Savage's choke once they got catched. Kenobi couldn't break Dooku's choke. And Sidious couldn't free himself from Mauls' grip in that deleted sequence.
That's the way the Force works in a Canon.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yoda's game is rarely to best an opponent with the Force. It's not like he tried and failed - he never even tried. He repelled all of Dooku's attacks, and then quickly bested him with a lightsaber.

Yoda was GM of the Order and wisest Jedi alive. We have to believe, that he did everything he could, to stop the War (especially, that not long before, he and Mace decided, that Dooku must be stoped). If he decided to engage Dooku in duel, he probably believed that it was best option.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
To put some context on the difference, exposure to 176 degrees F for .1 seconds still yields curable third-degree burns. But then at 200, it's incurable. In contrast, a body is ashed in 1400 degrees F for 1 to 3 hours. So yeah, a near-unprecedented distinction that Revan closed.

Doesn't matter. Sidious FL also doesn't turns people into ashes, and yet it was possibly the most powerful attack of the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Drew just had different vision of character's skills. That doesn't matter they had superior skills.

Dooku can't even beat pre-Nathema Vitiate, lol. Novel Vitiate would grab him by the pussy and Mace too for that matter. He has two hands.

No, it's not. A powerful Force user can generally break free from a telekinetic hold.

The instances you cited are either non-canon, or end with them relinquishing their holds due to visible strain of maintaining it.

The fact you dismiss a scene where Palpatine, from across the galaxy and with a mere gesture, strangles Dooku silly, strikes me as insane.

It's blatant and indisputable evidence of Palpatine's unquestionable and vast superiority to Dooku in every way, shape, and form.


What? The fact Yoda opted to battle the Count in a purely lightsaber fight can be attributed to the fact Dooku specifically challenged him in such.

And then also make note that, like I said, thrashing around individual's with the Force isn't a Jedi's game.

Skywalker had the power to instantly pin Caedus, and yet when they fought in battle, he never choose to show that dominance when he could win anyway.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


What? No, that's not a rebuttal.

Lucas states that Palpatine "pretends to lose his powers and be weak" in the sequence that Windu bends back his lightning, so he's not facing Palpatine's full wrath.

Also, it seems you have no rebuttal to how well Revan handled Vitiate's attack.

So, to restate:

- Mace Windu's lightsaber was being bent back by Palpatine's lightning, which was faked and not even at full power.

- Revan nearly completely absorbed Vitiate's lightning, which was infinitely more powerful than any lightning Dooku has ever displayed.

Yeah, they're not comparable.

Duo.

The duo wins, yeah. A hindered, injured Revan, hindered Surik and amped Scourge (but who cares?) could split with an amped Vitiate.

On neutral ground, Dooku and Mace, a superior team, are taking it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The duo wins, yeah. A hindered, injured Revan, hindered Surik and amped Scourge (but who cares?) could split with an amped Vitiate.

On neutral ground, Dooku and Mace, a superior team, are taking it.
You deserve an award for your lowballing efforts. Trying your best to make that Strike Team look compromised?

They had rest before they assaulted Vitiate's stronghold.

I'm not interested in the words you want to use to describe my reiteration of the novel's circumstances, as long as you get the message.

The dark side nexus hindered Surik and Revan, regardless of their rest beforehand (which I wasn't even interested in). That's a fact.

Indeed, they were compromised, and Vitiate was in the heart of his power. That's another fact.

Please tell me the circumstances then constituted neutral ground, lol.

Team.

The duo takes it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

And then also make note that, like I said, thrashing around individual's with the Force isn't a Jedi's game.
Jedi's game at that point was to ends the War.
There were a few reference books, that claimed that Yoda engaged Dooku in "Titanic Force battle". I'm not a Dooku's fanboy or smth, I wont use that materials, since I consider them as outdated and not rightful. But still, Dooku wouldn't be oneshoted by Yoda in the Force batte. More then that, it could be in Yoda's nature, to try to capture Dooku without hurting him much. And that would be even easier in a Force fight.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, it's not. A powerful Force user can generally break free from a telekinetic hold.
An example please?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The instances you cited are either non-canon, or end with them relinquishing their holds due to visible strain of maintaining it.
Not sure if that deleted scene is a non canon. There were a thing that were happening, while we didn't see them. It's a reason that I consider this scene as a canon. I also consider that part of Yoda and Sidious' fight, when Yoda disarmed him as a canon. Those short parts of duels are also a canon for me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIe2A-SnXlY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGNW3_MAs-4

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The fact you dismiss a scene where Palpatine, from across the galaxy and with a mere gesture, strangles Dooku silly, strikes me as insane.
I'm not dismissing it. It proves how powerful Sidious was. And Yoda was his equal at that point. But for me, it's clear that Dooku couldn't challange his master. And it was Sidious' right to punish him for his failures. So he didin't even dare to try to break that grip in my opinion.

And yeah, I'm with you when it comes to judge that duel between Palpatine and Mace. But that doesn't change a fact, that Windu were able to hold his own for some time, and Palpatine had to use his lightning to be able to overpower Windu (which he would, if he would not pretend to be weak). But Revan also got owned by lighning by that point. And before that attack, Vitiate was somehow holding back as I remember. I'll read that fight again today.

Nice finds for the brief snippets that were cut from on-screen.

Cool scenes, right?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not interested in the words you want to use to describe my reiteration of the novel's circumstances, as long as you get the message.

The dark side nexus hindered Surik and Revan, regardless of their rest beforehand (which I wasn't even interested in). That's a fact.

Indeed, they were compromised, and Vitiate was in the heart of his power. That's another fact.

Please tell me the circumstances then constituted neutral ground, lol.
So Dromund Kaas hindered Revan more than Star Forge and Meetra Surik more than Malachor V?

Revan defeated Darth Malak on Star Forge (a setting, very strong in the Dark Side)

Meetra Surik defeated Darth Traya on Malachor V (a setting, very strong in the Dark Side)

These are lame excuses, my friend.

Revan, in particular, could use the Dark Side to his advantage. Setting doesn't matters to him.

You're aware that Revan had days to purge the drugs and poison from his system an ability we know he was familiar with due to the teachings demonstrated in his holocron in PoD and that he was drawing on both the light and dark side in his fight Nova?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? Don't worry; he evidently has no idea of what he's talking about.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You're aware that Revan had days to purge the drugs and poison from his system an ability we know he was familiar with due to the teachings demonstrated in his holocron in PoD and that he was drawing on both the light and dark side in his fight Nova?

Plus purging drugs and poisons from one's body, is kinda a standard Jedi Knight thing that they master.

Yep. It's noted in the Jedi Path.

Originally posted by McP
Jedi's game at that point was to ends the War.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean abandon the principles he upheld for eight-hundred years.

He can end the war and not use the Force. Again, just refer to Luke's fight with Caedus.

Luke could have instantly pinned Caedus with the Force, but instead opted to wage a brutal battle.

The only difference here is Yoda wasn't even challenged in a lightsaber battle either.


For every quote that says that, I guarantee you I can provide one that says Yoda easily bested him.


I never said one-shot, although it's easily possible if he abandons all moral principles.


Do you even read what I write?

Dooku's challenge of a lightsaber duel was what made Yoda do that, not because he decided it would be easier.


For one, Darth Bane breaking free of a energy attack in RoT.

For two, the strike team breaking free from Revan's TK hold on the FT when spirit Revan donated additional power.


That's absolutely wrong then. They are non-canon.


He was visibly clutching his throat trying to break free.


The reason for my late response is the fact you don't even seem to read what I have to say.

I already addressed why Revan didn't get owned by the lightning - and in detail, too.

I have absolutely no clue what you mean by the Windu and Palpatine thing. Palpatine faking his lightning power at Windu is not impressive for Windu, nor can you powerscale that lightning off of "most powerful" accolades when he's not performing at full power. We never saw how Windu could handle Palpatine's actual lightning, but we know he definitely couldn't do it with his bare hands like Revan did with Vitiate and Darth Nyriss.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Luke could have instantly pinned Caedus with the Force, but instead opted to wage a brutal battle.


I don't think Luke was thinking clearly. If he were restraining himself out of Jedi principle, he wouldn't have leapt at Jacen from behind.

The Emperor.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku's challenge of a lightsaber duel was what made Yoda do that, not because he decided it would be easier.
Well, Dooku at first challanged him in a Force fight. Dooku tried everything he could, faild, Yoda didn't answer, So Dooku decided that it's pointless and challanged him for saber duel. And this time, Yoda was much more aggressive. Perhaps he felt better in saber duel. After all he was the first one, that draw a saber in his fight against Sidious.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For one, Darth Bane breaking free of a energy attack in RoT.

For two, the strike team breaking free from Revan's TK hold on the FT when spirit Revan donated additional power.
Originally posted by McP
That's the way the Force works in a Canon.
Well, I was expecting a Canon sources.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's absolutely wrong then. They are non-canon.
They always were a part of canon. I agree, that this Dooku's statement "just because there is two of you, do not assume that you have an advantage" is a non-canon, sice we see the whole scene. But this part when he kicks Anakin in a face, and Force pushes Kenobi should be treat as a canon, sice we see only Palpatine's face at that point. Same in that short part of fuel from TPM.
And Yoda disarming Sidious is much more convincing, then whole Stover's version (which is clearly opposite to the movie, and should be treat as a non-canon at first point).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He was visibly clutching his throat trying to break free.
Quite normal reaction when you're choking. Anyway, as I said, I still believe, that in Canon it is very, very hard to free himself after you being catched off-guard.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I already addressed why Revan didn't get owned by the lightning - and in detail, too.
Depends. He was able to deflect some lighning bolts, but got owned by Vitiate's full power lightning (tornado? I don't have an english version of Revan).
I would rahter compere Sidious' strongest attack (which in canon was Force FL) to Vitiate's strongest (Force tornado(?)). Mace was able to hold his own for a while, while Revan was nearly instantly stomped.
Palpatine faked his wekaness, but I doubt that he could instantly kill Windu with his FL.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
We never saw how Windu could handle Palpatine's actual lightning, but we know he definitely couldn't do it with his bare hands like Revan did with Vitiate and Darth Nyriss.
Well, once again - assuming, that Vitiate =< Sidious in power, Sidious strongest attack has to be similar or a bit stronger. Nyriss' FL was significantly inferior to Vitiate's, while Dooku's was significantly inferior to Palpatine's. Hard to tell how much inferior Dooku's lightning was, but after all, he did a good job by supporting Sidious in his duel against Talzin. After Dooku used his FL, she was momentaly overhelmed (even despite the fact, that she was aided by Maul's strenght). I'm not sure if Dooku's FL was inferior to Nyriss' at all, and Dooku could comfortably deflect his own lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku can't even beat pre-Nathema Vitiate, lol. Novel Vitiate would grab him by the pussy and Mace too for that matter. He has two hands. *curiously tilts head* Tell me more.

For real, tho: it's basically the same as sending 2 endgame Revans (or Malaks) at him. Just with 1 having the potential to get a Vaapad amp.

^no vaapad amp in the parameters of this thread.

Anyways, Vitiate's (most powerful) lightning is way too powerful for these clowns to handle.

So? For the final time, the fact Yoda didn't continue a Force battle does not mean he would have had a difficult time with it.

Yoda took on Dooku's challenge, first with the Force and then with the lightsaber.

Again, refer to the Caedus vs Skywalker fight as proof that a Jedi not dominating someone with their powers doesn't mean they can't, even in war-deciding situations.

Unless you have something *new* to contribute to this point, I suggest you agree.


This is a Legends debate.



Movie deleted scenes are different from TCW deleted scenes. Movie deleted scenes have been confirmed canon by Lelaand Chee. TCW deleted scenes have no been confirmed canon, and based on how there were deleted scenes with Revan and Darth Bane that Filoni stressed didn't happen, it's clear the fact that they are no longer a thing is significant. So really, unless you can provide me a direct quote stating TCW quotes are canon, you're wrong, because we already see the full fight of Palpatine vs Maul/Opress in a novel and they never pin him.


This is a Legends discussion, so that's irrelevant.

And likewise, the fact he's trying to break himself free with his hands is proof he wants to break free, which goes against what you say.


Holy ****. Either you aren't understanding me or you aren't reading what I said.

a.) REVAN WAS NOT DOMINATED BY VITIATE'S FINAL ATTACK; HE ABSORBED A VAST MAJORITY OF THE ENERGY.

a.) REVAN WAS NOT DOMINATED BY VITIATE'S FINAL ATTACK; HE ABSORBED A VAST MAJORITY OF THE ENERGY.

a.) REVAN WAS NOT DOMINATED BY VITIATE'S FINAL ATTACK; HE ABSORBED A VAST MAJORITY OF THE ENERGY.

Please read the following (again):



b.) WINDU ONLY HANDLED PALPATINE'S FAKE LIGHTNING. HE NEVER CONFRONTED HIS SERIOUS LIGHTNING EXCEPT WHEN HE WAS HURLED OUT THE WINDOW.

b.) WINDU ONLY HANDLED PALPATINE'S FAKE LIGHTNING. HE NEVER CONFRONTED HIS SERIOUS LIGHTNING EXCEPT WHEN HE WAS HURLED OUT THE WINDOW.

b.) WINDU ONLY HANDLED PALPATINE'S FAKE LIGHTNING. HE NEVER CONFRONTED HIS SERIOUS LIGHTNING EXCEPT WHEN HE WAS HURLED OUT THE WINDOW.

I swear to Badabing, if you regurgitate that Revan was instantly destroyed without addressing my points again, or make the claim that Windu handled Palpatine's serious lightning, this conversation is over.

*Sees text*

Mother of god.

Ant:

1. Dooku grabbing at his neck is an instinctual reaction and doesn't necessarily imply conscious retaliation or defense via the Force, which Sidious would see as defiance, something Dooku certainly doesn't want to signal.

2. Palpatine may have feigned weakness in his begging and pleading; this doesn't suggest that he was holding back the actual lightning. Likewise, the novel is wrong when it asserts that Windu was being pushed back; you can clearly see him pushing his saber towards Sidious's face. Palpatine's deformation is further evidence that he was legitimately losing, unless if he was like consciously melting his own face for the show, which seems like a stretch.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ant:

1. Dooku grabbing at his neck is an instinctual reaction and doesn't necessarily imply conscious retaliation or defense via the Force, which Sidious would see as defiance, something Dooku certainly doesn't want to signal.

2. Palpatine may have feigned weakness in his begging and pleading; this doesn't suggest that he was holding back the actual lightning. Likewise, the novel is wrong when it asserts that Windu was being pushed back; you can clearly see him pushing his saber towards Sidious's face. Palpatine's deformation is further evidence that he was legitimately losing, unless if he was like consciously melting his own face for the show, which seems like a stretch.
1.) He would have time to move his hands away if he doesn't want to convey that signal, then.

2.) No, the quote holds that he acted weaker than he was, in other words, he wasn't using his full power. If he was acting weaker, he's not using his full lightning, that's just piecing two and two together with a spoon of logic.

So, wrong and wrong.

You don't think really well when you're suffocating. I see no reason to think Dooku was resisting his master beyond a useless gesture; that would be suicide.

Well I see reason because we visibly see him trying to stop the choking.

You keep ignoring the instinctual part. If he were thinking clearly why didn't he just shut the hologram off?

I'm not ignoring, I'm dismissing. There's a distinction.

Because shutting the hologram off wouldn't do anything if Palpatine's grip is already on Dooku? It's not like Palpatine's energy teleports through the hologram to Dooku.

Lol no, you aren't actually responding to it or explaining why it doesn't work, when it better fits Dooku's desire to not get killed than yours.

No it doesn't. That's baseless speculation, whereas I'm observing the situation objectively. Dooku had no way of knowing if Palpatine wasn't going to kill him right then and there. He's blatantly going to try to escape. And it's not like Palpatine would be outraged by that - he was pleased when Maul attacked him back during his apprenticeship. Dooku attempting to break free from Palpatine would, at worst, make Palpatine laugh.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/8883f76214efda0f1084570a54c14e92/tumblr_mwoqedWceU1sfcclko1_500.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No it doesn't. That's baseless speculation, whereas I'm observing the situation objectively. Dooku had no way of knowing if Palpatine wasn't going to kill him right then and there. He's blatantly going to try to escape. And it's not like Palpatine would be outraged by that - he was pleased when Maul attacked him back during his apprenticeship. Dooku attempting to break free from Palpatine would, at worst, make Palpatine laugh.


Cause yeah, Palpatine's just ****ing petty and stupid enough that he's gonna ****ing murder Dooku for trying to get out of being choked like a *****, even though Dooku's the leader of the CIS.

I swear, people come up with such bullshit to act like there isn't a large gap in Force ability between Dooku, and Sidious/Yoda.

Vitiate solidly. As soon as he put effort into his fight, he one-shotted Revan. Since there's no TP, he'll open with lightning, and after he acknowledges that the weak stuff doesn't do anything, he'll oneshot them.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Vitiate solidly. As soon as he put effort into his fight, he one-shotted Revan. Since there's no TP, he'll open with lightning, and after he acknowledges that the weak stuff doesn't do anything, he'll oneshot them.

Vitiate put effort into the fight from the very beginning, the text is explicit. Go back and reread it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
because we already see the full fight of Palpatine vs Maul/Opress in a novel and they never pin him.




No the novel also leaves a big gap in the fight.