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He was already Dooku tier as a duelist and Maul tier as a Force wielder in his thirties; could he have eventually beaten Tyranus?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was already Dooku tier as a duelist and Maul tier as a Force wielder in his thirties; could he have eventually beaten Tyranus? Yes.

Impossible to tell. Perhaps he reached his limits as of ROTS. And being a bit stronger, or even stronger in the Force, would not put him in Dooku's overall league. At least in Legends, Kenobi's Force talent was moderate as I remember. If Qui-Gon wouldn't take him as a student, he would even wont become a jedi knight.
Dooku on the other hand, was confirmed as one of the most talented jedi in the Order. Perhaps Kenobi could never reach his level.
But perhaps he will, if Disney will decide to show him in his prime during Rebels for example.

M, I'll respond to you in the Vitiate thread soon, so look out for that.

No. Both Dooku and Kenobi were near or at their full potential

I think he would've gotten a smidgen better, able to duel evenly with Dooku. As for seeing him in his "prime" in Rebels, they better NOT as its 2 years before A New Hope and their is no way he can be in ROTS prime and then deteriorate in 2 years. No way.

Originally posted by Kurk
No. Both Dooku and Kenobi were near or at their full potential

Considering not even RotJ Sidious was, that's f-ucking bullshit. In other words a usual Kurk post

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Considering not even RotJ Sidious was, that's f-ucking bullshit. In other words a usual Kurk post

To be honest, Ben was only in his 50's and already crying about how he's to old, he wouldn't have advanced much.

It's almost as if he was hiding out on some backwater world rather than working out and battling evil every day.

Originally posted by McP
Impossible to tell. Perhaps he reached his limits as of ROTS. And being a bit stronger, or even stronger in the Force, would not put him in Dooku's overall league. At least in Legends, Kenobi's Force talent was moderate as I remember. If Qui-Gon wouldn't take him as a student, he would even wont become a jedi knight.

I think Obi Wan was a late bloomer whose potential just wasn't apparent early on for whatever reason. Think Tom Brady.

For a 38 year old lightsider to reach his full potential is ****ing laughable.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
For a 38 year old lightsider to reach his full potential is ****ing laughable. I thought he was 35.

You thought wrong.

Originally posted by Darth Abonis
I think he would've gotten a smidgen better, able to duel evenly with Dooku. As for seeing him in his "prime" in Rebels, they better NOT as its 2 years before A New Hope and their is no way he can be in ROTS prime and then deteriorate in 2 years. No way.


Who says he has to deteriorate?

In any case, Rebels Ben only has to be good enough to take out Rebels Maul. You can decide for yourself what level that is.

Do aging people get better or worse with physical skill levels in their fifties ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Do aging people get better or worse with physical skill levels in their fifties ?
well it depends. You could be a complete a fat-ass in your thirties and turn yourself around later.

Originally posted by Kurk
well it depends. You could be a complete a fat-ass in your thirties and turn yourself around later.





Quanchi's never done a hard day's work in his life, so wouldn't grasp the concept.

Originally posted by Kurk
well it depends. You could be a complete a fat-ass in your thirties and turn yourself around later. That isn't the same thing. we are assuming their level of practice, diet, training as stayed relatively the same. Michael Jordan in his 20's is better than in his fifties. Facts, kiddo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That isn't the same thing. we are assuming their level of practice, diet, training as stayed relatively the same. Michael Jordan in his 20's is better than in his fifties. Facts, kiddo.
I don't disagree that senescence exists

He might scrape Ahsoka-tier.

Quanchi doesn't know what the Force is Lol

Originally posted by Kurk
I don't disagree that senescence exists So you agree.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Quanchi doesn't know what the Force is Lol I most certainly do and unlike you I know what evidence is. Lucas also stated iirc we see what a Jedi in their prime is capable of.p in the prequels. Kenobi is far more impressive in rots than he was in ANH. I'm very good at this, D. Thor.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you agree.
Obviously an older person is not going to be as strong in their physical capabilities. I just wanted to be a smart-ass and use my first example.

Originally posted by Kurk
Obviously an older person is not going to be as strong in their physical capabilities. I just wanted to be a smart-ass and use my first example. So you concede to your former master.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you concede to your former master.
I don't have a problem doing that unlike you. It would be nice to get along.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He might scrape Ahsoka-tier.

We are discussing if Kenobi improves, not if he deteriorates.

Originally posted by Kurk
Obviously an older person is not going to be as strong in their physical capabilities. I just wanted to be a smart-ass and use my first example.


Dude Dooku was decades older than even Old Ben. The only reason for Ben to be < ROTS Kenobi is if he's completely out of practice.

But even if he practices from time to time he should be fine. Increased mastery of the force would easily compensate for his body getting older.

It's pretty easy to see why Obi Wan became weaker during his exile. Without practice or Jedi resources to improve himself including other members to practice with, all he's really doing is getting Older. Conflating Dooku's personal experiences with his is a faulty comparison because of the severe difference in environment, their personal goals and the fact that Dooku might just be more powerful than Kenobi. I'm sure if Ben did take up the time to become more masterful with his use of the Force, he might not of degraded so badly, but it wasn't in his best interest, his goal was to ascend to past the physical realm as a Force spirit in death, simple truths. He was weaker than his Prime self in ROTS, lets move on.

Obi Wan aint Gohan, he'd be about the same as he was in ROTS except he'd know how to become a Force Ghost... Look at Count Dooku and Yoda, they were able to move around like 20 year olds due to keeping in practice with the Force

^ Well Dooku's not just around the same age, or just a little older. He's decades older. And it's not just him. Windu is about the same age as Old Ben. Palaptine was around the same age back in TPM, let alone any of the later films.

So age is not a reason to be weaker. These guys generally get more powerful with age. The only excuse is if he's out of practice. But will see if the new Canon goes with that. It won't be the case though if he faces Maul in Rebels, and if they do solo Kenobi spin off films based in that time period.

im not disagreeing with that, in fact I think i pretty much said just that; age doesnt matter, its your practice with the Force...and the fact that your movie was made in 1977...that affects your ability to be a badass force user

Originally posted by relentless1
im not disagreeing with that, in fact I think i pretty much said that


Sorry my arrow was pointed at Ziggy's comment.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
It's pretty easy to see why Obi Wan became weaker during his exile. Without practice or Jedi resources to improve himself including other members to practice with, all he's really doing is getting Older. Conflating Dooku's personal experiences with his is a faulty comparison because of the severe difference in environment, their personal goals and the fact that Dooku might just be more powerful than Kenobi. I'm sure if Ben did take up the time to become more masterful with his use of the Force, he might not of degraded so badly, but it wasn't in his best interest, his goal was to ascend to past the physical realm as a Force spirit in death, simple truths. He was weaker than his Prime self in ROTS, lets move on. Another poster decimating D. Thor's pleas for help. Dooku isn't Kenobi and Dumb Thor just doesn't get it. Their experiences aren't the same nor is their force power but he pretends they are identical twins. He's hopelessly stupid.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
We are discussing if Kenobi improves, not if he deteriorates. I think he's trying to say that Rebels Ahsoka is > Any version of Kenobi.

Thanks for explaining to me, I had no idea. Who would presume Beni to be a pathetic wanker?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YGRiQJnwI1k/hqdefault.jpg

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dude Dooku was decades older than even Old Ben. The only reason for Ben to be < ROTS Kenobi is if he's completely out of practice.

But even if he practices from time to time he should be fine. Increased mastery of the force would easily compensate for his body getting older.
Not to mention that Dooku is immensely more powerful than Kenobi in regards to his augmentation ability compensating for physicality Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Well Dooku's not just around the same age, or just a little older. He's decades older. And it's not just him. Windu is about the same age as Old Ben. Palaptine was around the same age back in TPM, let alone any of the later films.

So age is not a reason to be weaker. These guys generally get more powerful with age. The only excuse is if he's out of practice. But will see if the new Canon goes with that. It won't be the case though if he faces Maul in Rebels, and if they do solo Kenobi spin off films based in that time period.
True, but generally speaking a 50 year-old Mace or 80 year-old Dooku will not have the same strength or stamina they did in their youthful years unlessthey've increased significantly in their force abilities to compensate for these short-comings through augmentation.

http://img00.deviantart.net/7248/i/2008/254/f/8/i_seem_to_be_trapped____cw_by_elthegeneral.jpg

stop

Originally posted by |King Joker|
stop stop what?

Originally posted by Kurk
Not to mention that Dooku is immensely more powerful than Kenobi in regards to his augmentation ability compensating for physicality

Dooku's more powerful, I don't know about immensely more powerful.

Point is you don't honestly think a 35 year old Jedi Dooku was a match for his ROTS self do you?

His Immense power has come from Decades of Mastery of the Force and Fencing skill perfection.



Originally posted by Kurk
True, but generally speaking a 50 year-old Mace or 80 year-old Dooku will not have the same strength or stamina they did in their youthful years unlessthey've increased significantly in their force abilities to compensate for these short-comings through augmentation.

Again do you really think a younger Pre-TPM Mace was > ROTS Mace?

Do you think TFA Luke will be < ROTJ Luke? Going by this "older = weaker" logic Luke should be an old weakling by TFA. But somehow I don't think that will be the case.

Because as you've pointed out, Force augmentation, which increases with mastery of the force, which increases over time, more than compensates for any weakened physical abilities.

These are all examples of people more powerful than Kenobi, henceforth incomparable.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
These are all examples of people more powerful than Kenobi, henceforth incomparable.


Ah so your argument now is that ONLY those powerful in the force grow over time, whilst those weaker in the force get weaker over time?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ah so your argument now is that ONLY those powerful in the force grow over time, whilst those weaker in the force get weaker over time?

Tell me Thor, are you enjoying building up little men from straw, and knocking them down in acclaims to win the day? This is my attempt to explain why the examples being championed are all poor ones, Dooku and Mace are noted to be in the elite of the elite tier of Jedi Masters and that's a proposition being echoed for decades, there is another who approaches that level of regard; Qui Gon Jinn, who is generally noted to be less formidable in old age, and his power in the Force didn't make up the difference. Kenobi is going to be far more comparable to Qui Gon in this regard than Mace and most certainly Dooku given their shared goals - trying to connect with the spiritual realm of the Force, rather than the physical.

"Your powers are weak," Vader noted emotionlessly. "Old man, you should never have come back. It will make your end less peaceful than you might have wished."

"You sense only a part of the Force, Darth," Kenobi murmured with the assurance of one to whom death is merely another sensation, like sleeping or making love or touching a candle. "As always, you perceive its reality as little as a utensil perceives the taste of food."

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Tell me Thor, are you enjoying building up little men from straw, and knocking them down in acclaims to win the day? This is my attempt to explain why the examples being championed are all poor ones, Dooku and Mace are noted to be in the elite of the elite tier of Jedi Masters and that's a proposition being echoed for decades, there is another who approaches that level of regard; Qui Gon Jinn, who is generally noted to be less formidable in old age, and his power in the Force didn't make up the difference. Kenobi is going to be far more comparable to Qui Gon in this regard than Mace and most certainly Dooku given their shared goals - trying to connect with the spiritual realm of the Force, rather than the physical.

"Your powers are weak," Vader noted emotionlessly. "Old man, you should never have come back. It will make your end less peaceful than you might have wished."

"You sense only a part of the Force, Darth," Kenobi murmured with the assurance of one to whom death is merely another sensation, like sleeping or making love or touching a candle. "As always, you perceive its reality as little as a utensil perceives the taste of food."


Okay, Qui-Gon? Great. So someone on the "Ben is weaker than Obi-Wan" side has finally given an example to back up their claims.

Still not as numerous as the examples I've given- Mace, Dooku, Palpatine, Luke.. But Okay, let's go with your 1 example.

First of Qui-Gon was said to be in his 50's to 60's. So easily Ben Kenobi's age OR OLDER. And as we saw he was still a pretty capable fighter. Even named a "Powerful Jedi Master" in more than 1 source. And the only source that states he was past his prime was TPM Novel. However the same novel states his greater experience helps to offset that disadvantage. And he was still said to be overall superior to TPM Kenobi, the young fully trained Knight, in that same novel.

Was he Kenobi's equal though in the big scheme of things? No, not even close. Where Qui-Gon was clearly inferior to Maul, Kenobi as of TCW was able to engage both Maul and Opress together. And Qui-Gon himself admits in the same novel, that Obi-Wan has far greater potential than him.

So back to the Dooku/Mace comparisons. Why are they more powerful in the Force than Kenobi? Is that to do with their Force potential being so much greater? Or is it that they've just had more time to Master the Force?

Again I'll point out that Dooku was not just a little older than Ben.. He was in fact DECADES older. Mace around the same age. TPM Sidious around the same age.

So where are you getting this idea that ONLY the ELITE will grow in power over time? Whilst anyone a little under them in potential will get weaker over time?

Why would Force training be so different for those with slightly less potential? That just makes no sense whatsoever.

There does seem to be a slight contradiction there with Qui-Gon, but the more numerous examples are in my side. And Qui-Gon was even older than Ben, and had far less potential.

Dooku was better than Kenobi not an identical twin you dumbass. It's like saying a player is better at a certain age therefore all players have the same skills at said age. Retardation is the way of D. Thor.