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Been reading a thread on whether street lvl characters have any real purpose on super teams and thought about this.

Who contributes more to their respective teams (JLA/Avengers), Bats or Cap, and WHAT do they each contribute? Who is more useful on teams full of supers?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127184/2427525-capbat.jpg

Originally posted by riv6672
Been reading a thread on whether street lvl characters have any real purpose on super teams and thought about this.

Who contributes more to their respective teams (JLA/Avengers), Bats or Cap, and WHAT do they each contribute? Who is more useful on teams full of supers?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127184/2427525-capbat.jpg

In my opinion the two characters are quite similar in two ways. First of all, the fact that they are human beings (more or less) in teams comprised of (literally) demi-gods, and secondly that many readers misunderstand what their real contribution is.

For example, take Batman. His real contribution is not his ability to fight. So what if he knows martial arts at a high level of mastery? That means nothing when he's surrounded by a deity that can run faster than light, a deity who was formed by Zeus himself and is apparently a god of war, a deity that commands the oceans and wields Atlantean magic, a deity that can read minds, turn invisible, turn intangible, change shape, is super strong and fast, can shoot fire from its eyes (even though it ironically doesn't like fire), and likes cookies; a deity that is literally the personification of five gods and ancient magic; and obviously some alien that Lex Luthor is FULLY justified to fear and want destroyed (Superman is a threat).

Batman's martial arts mean nothing.

His main contribution is his brain. Specifically, strategy. The ability to think the unthinkable and come up with stratagems for it.

This was best seen in the Obsidian Age arc, where Batman's real value came through. The team was dead ...some more than others ....were it not for Batman's emergency plan.

Steve is more or less the same. Not as cerebral, but in terms of strategy just as good.

Mr Terrific does the same for the JSA.

Largely 'human' characters that turn a team of demi-gods into an EFFECTIVE team of demi-gods.

Thanks.

Batman, for me, contributes the villain element. Unlike everyone else on the JLA, even Plastic Man, he knows how criminals think. He can formulate plans that are so twisted and complex, they are practically supervillain-level. Through this, he provides security to his team mates. Batman always has a plan.

OTOH, Cap provides the moral security that the Avengers are on the right path. What Would Cap Do? If he is fighting on your side, you're on the side of the angels.

Again, thanks.
So, what i'm getting is, they provide intangibles, not say, X amount of tons lifted or MPH run.

Oh, in terms of tangibles, Bruce provides funding to the JLA. As well as stealth and liaisons with the US government (considering he can sneak past Supes and MM, and is better connected to Waller).

^^^And Cap?

Dont mean to kill with questions, but i figure this might not get a lot responses, so i gotta try and get some follow up from you!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman, for me, contributes the villain element. Unlike everyone else on the JLA, even Plastic Man, he knows how criminals think. He can formulate plans that are so twisted and complex, they are practically supervillain-level. Through this, he provides security to his team mates. Batman always has a plan.

OTOH, Cap provides the moral security that the Avengers are on the right path. What Would Cap Do? If he is fighting on your side, you're on the side of the angels.

Interesting point, and I agree. Infact, I would go further and say that Batman is not a hero. What Batman is is a villain - a super villain. The only difference is that, like Dexter from the TV show of the same name about a serial killer who solely hunts and kills other serial killers, Batman is a super villain who targets villains!

But he's not a good guy.

After all, this is a guy who was approached by a Yellow Lantern ring due to his ability to instill 'great fear,' he's a person with obvious psychological issues (let's just say he and the Joker are VERY similar ...so similar in terms of psychosis that if they were not seen at the same place at the same time, one could say the Joker is Bruce Wayne in clown face), and he's considerably spooky (certain types of dark magic that knocked out the entire JL, and he's the first to wake up).

Steve on the other hand is moral and good (at least before the whole Hydra nonsense).

But Batman ...he's a super villain who hunts villains, and in terms of dangerous characters on the JLA the first who should be killed is Superman (huge threat), then the Martian Manhunter (jobber, but probably an even bigger threat than Superman), and then Batman. The others should also be destroyed - the Flash is a being fast enough to almost be omnipresent, Cyborg can wreak havoc on the world's financial system, Aquaman, a gent who claims EVERYTHING in the oceans is his, and can cause enormous tidal waves that can destroy the 70% of cities that are located near coastlines, Green Lantern has a weapon (it is a weapon not a ring) that can convert thought to thing ...that's too powerful to be under one person's control. Wonder Woman belongs to a state that has no sovereign recognition and considers herself a god, placing her in a position that she considers herself a super power among men. Has to be neutralized. Raven - she can open dimensions into who knows what. Has to be neutralized. Firestorm - a walking thermonuclear device that has the ability to transmute elements. Has to be neutralized. Red Tornado. No real threat, but should be neutralized and then studied. Etc etc etc

By the way, were the JLA real that is how the world's governments would treat them. As existential threats to be studied and then destroyed.

The world would be scared enough that they would try and destroy them. The world would fail, and in the process turn the JLA into the monsters they were feared to be. It would lead to enslavement of the world's populace by beings that are veritable gods.

And all along Batman would be laughing ....

Batman's the normalman on a team of Captain Everything's. The one who uses his wits and does most of the thinking, because thinking's all he has.

While Captain America's just a PIS machine, that gets to brawl Hulk by editorial fiat.

Plus we mere mortals need to feel wanted needed maybe even superior so we make character like our selfs who are smart enough or brave enough to impress the Godlings they are teamed with.

Originally posted by cdtm
Batman's the normalman on a team of Captain Everything's. The one who uses his wits and does most of the thinking, because thinking's all he has.

While Captain America's just a PIS machine, that gets to brawl Hulk by editorial fiat.
Ridonculous/agree to disagree.

Thanks for the in depth replies, fellows.

In terms of resources, Batman kills him (9.5/10).

In terms of who has the most brilliant mind of the two. Batman wins (7-8/10)

In terms of tactical strategy Captain America slightly edges him out (6-7/10).

In terms of being an all around superior physical specimen, Captain America, wins by a slight margin (7/10).

Overall, I'd pick Batman, because of the vast difference in resources that he can depend on. He can also come up with some pretty beastly tech when the need arises.

Batman FTW 8/10

Their supposed to humanisze a team of unrealistic characters.

Originally posted by Stoic
In terms of resources, Batman kills him (9.5/10).

In terms of who has the most brilliant mind of the two. Batman wins (7-8/10)

In terms of tactical strategy Captain America slightly edges him out (6-7/10).

In terms of being an all around superior physical specimen, Captain America, wins by a slight margin (7/10).

Overall, I'd pick Batman, because of the vast difference in resources that he can depend on. He can also come up with some pretty beastly tech when the need arises.

Batman FTW 8/10
This is what i was hoping for, danka.

Anytime Batman is on the front lines of a team, you know the team will never be written anywhere close to their potential.

Think about it, super speedsters like the Flash, Supes and Wondy can squeeze out years and years out of a single real time second. They would have to stand around and wait for what feels like years for Batman to pull out one special batarang to throw it at a single parademon, when they could basically beat a whole army of them before he can blink. They basically have to get written down to human levels of speed just so Batman can do something more than blink before entire an entire is over.


Cap at least has a nigh unbreakable shield, and is usually not a part of a team lineup with any speedsters on it.

On average, Cap. Batman's got a wider gulf of usefulness.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Anytime Batman is on the front lines of a team, you know the team will never be written anywhere close to their potential.

Think about it, super speedsters like the Flash, Supes and Wondy can squeeze out years and years out of a single real time second. They would have to stand around and wait for what feels like years for Batman to pull out one special batarang to throw it at a single parademon, when they could basically beat a whole army of them before he can blink. They basically have to get written down to human levels of speed just so Batman can do something more than blink before entire an entire is over.

True, but this applies to any team that has a mix of heralds and below, not just Batman and the League. The heralds will job, just to justify the team. If not, why bother forming the team?

As for the OP, I'll just say that both Batman and Captain America are equally indispensable to their respective teams. Might be for different reasons, but both teams would suffer without them on their side.

Voice of reason.