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If so, where's the evidence?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If so, where's the evidence? Ziost....

Yeah, swallowing an entire populace is bound to make one more powerful than ever, lmao.

Not if it just went into regenerating him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not if it just went into regenerating him. Why would you come to that conclusion though, whats your reasoning?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Why would you come to that conclusion though, whats your reasoning? He was terribly weakened during Ziost and was on the brink of death.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If so, where's the evidence?

Yes. The evidence is that Revan mused Vitiate was capable of draining Droumund Kaas but was not sure. Vitiate empowered by the fear and hatred of Ziost's populace which he inspired was capable of doing so as that's ultimately what he did. He would then gain the energy of the life force of the planet's populace which should place him firmly above. And that's not even if we're counting Dromund Kaas being a DS nexus where such a feat should be easier for Vitiate to accomplish.

LMAO^

?

A Vitiate feeding off a planet's fear and hatred accomplished a feat Revan was unsure Vitiate in DK was capable of carrying out and then gained the energy of that planet's life force. What's so funny?

That you're whole argument is made of Revans statement.

I mean. I don't see any reason not to believe him but you can disregard his statement and simply look at it from a feats perspective and come to the same results.

So Revan was unsure if he could do it, and it turns out he could...how does that mean he got stronger?

Ziost was also a nexus. Not that it matters. I've seen nothing to place Valkorion over Vitiate. And you'll never see any confirmation either way.

Didn't Valk himself go on and on about how Ziost changed everything and pushed him to the next level in, like, chapter 2?

No. He said it opened his eyes to the truth. But he was just bullshitting anyway, so there's really no reason to believe him. In truth, Valkorion was spending the last five years trying to destroy the Outlander's mind to no success, so he spent the entirety of the expansion probing it and trying to see your strengths and weaknesses, while also making you more powerful because he needs a powerful body. He can't do anything at all, however, and waits until you kill Vaylin(who is supposed to have some parity with him) and uses her spirit/power to destroy your mind. Because he couldn't do himself before. Which is about on par with Vitiate who also failed in this area.

Wow what a failure.

Does that mean Valkorion's death in chapter 1 may have been a legitimate, unintentional loss?

I dunno.

"When my son struck me down, I refused to surrender to mortality."

"When you helped my son strike me down, I refused to surrender to mortality."

What do you think?

Lol, the Outlander really does make Revan look like a total tool by comparison.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Does that mean Valkorion's death in chapter 1 may have been a legitimate, unintentional loss? No shit.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So Revan was unsure if he could do it, and it turns out he could...how does that mean he got stronger?

We don't know if he was capable of it in a normal state. He did it after feeding off the fear and hatred of the population which may have gotten him back to normal levels or may have pushed him past them.

Have you even played TOR?

Valkorion is stated to be > Vitiate.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
We don't know if he was capable of it in a normal state. He did it after feeding off the fear and hatred of the population which may have gotten him back to normal levels or may have pushed him past them.

May have, yeah, but I don't see how it indicates either.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valkorion is stated to be > Vitiate.
Where? Because he's been Valkorion for hundreds of years at this point, and nothing states he became more powerful after Ziost.

The trailer for Sacrifice states it in the description.

That doesn't say what you think it says. Because Vitiate and Valkorion are the same person.

Zakuul is also more powerful than the Sith Empire was.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Where? Because he's been Valkorion for hundreds of years What I don't get about that is how the aging of himself and his children work

Originally posted by The Ellimist
May have, yeah, but I don't see how it indicates either.

The fact that he's gaining the energy from the life force of the population after already having similar power levels to his normal levels.

Originally posted by Sinious
What I don't get about that is how the aging of himself and his children work There is no logic in TOR, so don't bother looking.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
There is no logic in TOR, so don't bother looking. I'll just go f*** myself then

Sounds good.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The fact that he's gaining the energy from the life force of the population after already having similar power levels to his normal levels.

How do you know he has similar levels? He was drawing upon the populace, the nexus, prep time and (probably) a nexus; that doesn't suggest a permanent boost in power.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How do you know he has similar levels? He was drawing upon the populace, the nexus, prep time and (probably) a nexus; that doesn't suggest a permanent boost in power.

Why would him boosting himself off of the negative emotions of the populace be a temporary boost? Dromund Kaas was a nexus as well and what implies that he used prep to drain Ziost?

I don't see any reason to view draining the life energy of Ziost as temporary.

If he could permanently empower himself that way, he'd just do it all the time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If he could permanently empower himself that way, he'd just do it all the time.

I won't question Vitiate/Valkorian's motives or actions. I only try to make sense of the events that occurred.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Why would him boosting himself off of the negative emotions of the populace be a temporary boost?

Because the populace no longer exists.

So?

The fact that he had to prepare for it, for starters. RotE took place over an extended period of time.

It doesn't need to be temporary. He wasn't at full power when he did it.

If the Outlander ends up being a Jedi, and defeating Valkorion in a fair fight, then we know that Yoda > Mace Windu > Outlander > Valkorion.

Not how it works. mmm

Well we know Yoda is the most powerful light sider to his time ever, and that Yoda and Windu are the greatest Jedi masters ever to walk through the Temple. So yeah, Outlander would have to be declared a master and then walk through the Temple to be below Windu.

I still have the quotes before the event happened don't count policy.

Did Avellone's comments about the ancient sith come out after they had been fleshed out?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If the Outlander ends up being a Jedi, and defeating Valkorion in a fair fight, then we know that Yoda > Mace Windu > Outlander > Valkorion.
The Outlander won't end up being anything because TOR is in Legends. Also, the Jedi Temple is a ruin in TOR. If you want to look for every loophole you can, you won't win.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Outlander won't end up being anything because TOR is in Legends.

Yeah...so are the sources I'm alluding to.

So? TOR is an ongoing story in a nonexistent continuity. None of it is canon, so it's not like one can dictate the other.

What's this forum called?

It's called: Read the Rules

Originally posted by Your God
- To repeat what I said before, this is in no way a quality judgement, just an organisational/practical one. What YOU personally consider canon is entirely up to you. What you personally enjoy is entirely your business; if you think the old post-ROTJ EU tells a better stories than the new sequel films, fine. Just remember that there is an objective importance to the official Disney canon and that's where we calibrate from. Just make it clear if you are deviating from that in your own thread/post.

- Don't wield canon like a blunt weapon. It has its shades and, aside from anything else, canon sources can contradict, so there needs to be some room for negotiation/opinion. Also remember that canon sources can make mistakes- the costuming error that meant all the Imperials wore the same ranks in ROTJ really should be seen as just an error and not shoehorned into some weird explanation of a massive rank change in the Empire.


The idea that any of this matters is hilarious.

Freshest is the emo kid on the block.

lol so are we supposed to debate the eight or so meaningful characters in Canon?

Are you going to sub for this, Ant? Personally, I might because we get to kill off so many characters I hate so much.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lol so are we supposed to debate the eight or so meaningful characters in Canon?

No, we are supposed to look at everything on a case by case basis instead of parroting quotes from ten years ago.

And what is the "case by case" basis for dismissing the source in particular?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because the populace no longer exists.

So?

The fact that he had to prepare for it, for starters. RotE took place over an extended period of time.

It doesn't need to be temporary. He wasn't at full power when he did it.

But the energy he gained from them does.

So Vitiate being amped when accomplishing that feat doesn't mean anything in the context of comparing what he should have been capable of in the Revan novel since they were both nexuses.

He needed to regain his power but once he had by feeding off the populations negative emotions nothing suggests he prepared a ritual to drain the planet.

You have no way of knowing that and it's suggested that he is due to comparison between his accomplished feat and Revan's speculation in the novel.

Also it's novel Vitiate.

Valkorion's more powerful than novel Vitiate, likely, but I'm not convinced that he's more powerful than SWTOR Vitiate. He drained Ziost so he could return to his former strength, didn't he?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
But the energy he gained from them does.

No, it doesn't.

Because every nexus is the same?

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Someone being angry doesn't empower a Sith forever. That's retarded.

It's flat out stated he wasn't. It's also said that he was "revitalized" after Ziost. Throughout SOR and RotE he said to be weakened from his duel with the Hero of Tython. Actually play the game before making any type of assumption about its content.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, it doesn't.

Because every nexus is the same?

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Someone being angry doesn't empower a Sith forever. That's retarded.

It's flat out stated he wasn't. It's also said that he was "revitalized" after Ziost. Throughout SOR and RotE he said to be weakened from his duel with the Hero of Tython. Actually play the game before making any type of assumption about its content.

Why? What makes that energy temporary?

Because we have no way of ascertaining if there is a difference of power between those two nexuses.

I can't recall another instance where a darksider has fed off of dark emotions. I'll assume the amp was permanent unless otherwise stated.

It's stated that he wasn't at full power after feeding off the chaos he caused on the planet? Quote?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Why? What makes that energy temporary?


The hell? Because the person making the emotion is either no longer there or no longer making the emotion.


Which doesn't change the point. But it doesn't matter. One can make a logical inference, if you've ever heard of such a thing, by the descriptions of Dromund Kaas and Ziost. You don't, however, just assume they're the same to further your argument.

This might be the single most asinine and absent minded thing ever said here. Have you never, ever encountered a Dark Side force user in this entire mythos?

You don't even take the time to see how using the Dark Side works on the single most basic level, but you want me to go through the entirety of RotE and give you quotes about Vitiate not being at full power, despite this being the entire premise of it? I think I'll pass. Look it up yourself or go watch it on Youtube.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. He said it opened his eyes to the truth. But he was just bullshitting anyway, so there's really no reason to believe him. In truth, Valkorion was spending the last five years trying to destroy the Outlander's mind to no success, so he spent the entirety of the expansion probing it and trying to see your strengths and weaknesses, while also making you more powerful because he needs a powerful body. He can't do anything at all, however, and waits until you kill Vaylin(who is supposed to have some parity with him) and uses her spirit/power to destroy your mind. Because he couldn't do himself before. Which is about on par with Vitiate who also failed in this area.
That doesn't makes sense, at all.

When Valkorion was struck down, he immediately infiltrated the mind of the Outlander to escape death. The effort knocked out the Outlander (unconscious) on the spot.

After ruling for centuries, he was struck down in an act of treachery engineered by his son, Arcann. But the immortal Emperor could not be vanquished so easily. He evaded death by infiltrating the mind of the Outlander, his most powerful opponent.

Taken from Knights of the Eternal Throne

Arcann suspected as much and the Outlander was frozen in carbonite for good. Until Lana Beniko came and set him free.

Now, how could the Outlander resist Valkorion (inside his mind) while being unconscious? He could not.

Another thing is story-telling. If Valkorion had taken over the Outlander completely, then there was no story to tell.

Valkorion is just bidding his time, probing and understanding his subjects on a deeper level. Very clever of him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now, how could the Outlander resist Valkorion (inside his mind) while being unconscious? He could not.

Revan did.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The hell? Because the person making the emotion is either no longer there or no longer making the emotion.


Which doesn't change the point. But it doesn't matter. One can make a logical inference, if you've ever heard of such a thing, by the descriptions of Dromund Kaas and Ziost. You don't, however, just assume they're the same to further your argument.

This might be the single most asinine and absent minded thing ever said here. Have you never, ever encountered a Dark Side force user in this entire mythos?

You don't even take the time to see how using the Dark Side works on the single most basic level, but you want me to go through the entirety of RotE and give you quotes about Vitiate not being at full power, despite this being the entire premise of it? I think I'll pass. Look it up yourself or go watch it on Youtube.

But why would that make the energy gained from said emotions temporary?

I'm pretty sure a comparison like that would favor Dromund Kaas which only supports my point.

OTHER people's dark emotions. Not their own.

So you're refusing to provide the quote you claimed existed? Concession accepted.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
But why would that make the energy gained from said emotions temporary?

Because he wasn't gaining energy from their emotions, but their deaths(which you'd know if you actually played or watched the game).

It doesn't because all of Dromund Kaas isn't some uniform nexus, but regardless, the reason Kaas is a strong nexus is because of Vitiate's rituals to begin with.

Which has nothing to do with anything. Regardless, Vitiate doesn't have any emotions.

This isn't a debate, so I don't have to endorse you being lazy. Not that it matters. Everyone else who's speaking with some authority here have seen or played RotE. Only you are in the dark.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because he wasn't gaining energy from their emotions, but their deaths(which you'd know if you actually played or watched the game).

It doesn't because all of Dromund Kaas isn't some uniform nexus, but regardless, the reason Kaas is a strong nexus is because of Vitiate's rituals to begin with.

Which has nothing to do with anything. Regardless, Vitiate doesn't have any emotions.

This isn't a debate, so I don't have to endorse you being lazy. Not that it matters. Everyone else who's speaking with some authority here have seen or played RotE. Only you are in the dark.

Ok, then why would the energy he gained from their deaths be temporary?

Why would that mean Vitiate can't benefit from it? Sidious benefited from Byss despite his actions causing the nexus there.

If he gained energy from their deaths then you're right in that it's a moot point.

Considering you're debating that Valkorian is not superior to Vitiate which is a highly contested subject that most people don't agree on I don't think you can successfully apply an ad populum fallacy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, the Outlander really does make Revan look like a total tool by comparison. In what way?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, swallowing an entire populace is bound to make one more powerful than ever, lmao. Actually, that's a pretty good point. Maybe he'll never be as powerful as he was before possessing that Voss Voice. Hopefully.

Besides, more interesting chars (like Malgus and Revan) deserve more respect.

Originally posted by darthbane77
In what way?

Revan's a complete failure and the Outlander/HoT shits all over him in hero cred.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan's a complete failure and the Outlander/HoT shits all over him in hero cred. How is he a failure as a hero? He saved the Republic twice.

Once upon a dream, Neph was infatuated with Revan. Ant tore that away from him, and it looks like he'll never get it back.

He did pretty much the same with me and Anakin. He tends to inspire disgust and revulsion in any character he supports.

Originally posted by darthbane77
How is he a failure as a hero? He saved the Republic twice.

1 of those times from a threat he created. He endangered the Republic twice, not to mention attempted genocide on the Empire and inspired the RoT.

The events of Revan are almost comical in how ridiculously incompetent and stupid they make him look, honestly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
1 of those times from a threat he created. He endangered the Republic twice, not to mention attempted genocide on the Empire and inspired the RoT.

The events of Revan are almost comical in how ridiculously incompetent and stupid they make him look, honestly.

Were it not for Revan, Vitiate would've steamrolled the Republic centuries earlier.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Were it not for Revan, Vitiate would've steamrolled the Republic centuries earlier. This to. Revan was saving the Republic from Vitiate for centuries.

Vitiate only would have steamrolled the Republic because Revan weakened it so much between him and the Triumvirate.

The actions of the Triumvirate are Traya's fault, not Revan's. And even with Revan's interference, the Empire pretty much won the war. So yes, Vitiate would have steamrolled them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate only would have steamrolled the Republic because Revan weakened it so much between him and the Triumvirate.

So the Republic got steamrolled by Revan's hastily constructed Empire after failing to beat some mandolorians without Revan's help, and now they're expected to defeat Vitiate's Empire?

The Dread Masters would have ripped the Republic apart.

They didn't have the Jedi with them against the Mando's. And Revan had the Star Forge and Malachor's corruptive abilities. Vitiates Empire also wasn't as strong as it was in TOR.

I'm pretty sure Revan's Empire wasn't as formidable as Vitiate's, given that Revan beat his own basically singlehandedly.

The Republic was weak before the Mando Wars, they were still rebuilding from the war against Kun and Ulic. The Republic wasn't at full strength again until almost just prior to the war with the Vitiate, and the Empire pretty much dominated them; only calling a truce because; wait for it.....Revan convinced him to. Pretty heroic to me.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm pretty sure Revan's Empire wasn't as formidable as Vitiate's, given that Revan beat his own basically singlehandedly.

Revan's was also comprised of a good chunk of the Republics best veterans, he basically split the force in half. If instead, Revan had used his genius, the full Jedi Order and the total Republic force against Vitiate they could have stood a chance.

BTW Ant, I've considered putting Revan above Vader. I wonder if he'll see this. mmm

Appears some people have trouble understanding things.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan's was also comprised of a good chunk of the Republics best veterans, he basically split the force in half. If instead, Revan had used his genius, the full Jedi Order and the total Republic force against Vitiate they could have stood a chance.

Revan clearly thought that the Republic wasn't adequately equipped to take on Vitiate, since that was his motivation for starting the war. I see no reason to trust your guess - which seems to be based on nothing, tbh - over his having actually seen the Empire, and knowing the Republic's own capabilities.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Revan clearly thought that the Republic wasn't adequately equipped to take on Vitiate, since that was his motivation for starting the war. I see no reason to trust your guess - which seems to be based on nothing, tbh - over his having actually seen the Empire, and knowing the Republic's own capabilities.

His motivation was getting brain blasted by Vitiate. If all he really cared about was beating Vitiate he'd have just used the Star Forge + Foundry to help the Republic beat him. He didn't even remember the Empire after his memories being corrupted from breaking V's control I'm pretty sure. Thanks Drew!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan did]
Revan regained conscious.

The Outlander did not.

The two were held captive in different ways.

You think in 300 years Vitiate and the Dread Masters never tried to knock Revan out to make it easily to dominate him, if that would actually be effective?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm pretty sure Revan's Empire wasn't as formidable as Vitiate's, given that Revan beat his own basically singlehandedly.

Originally posted by darthbane77
The Republic was weak before the Mando Wars, they were still rebuilding from the war against Kun and Ulic. The Republic wasn't at full strength again until almost just prior to the war with the Vitiate, and the Empire pretty much dominated them; only calling a truce because; wait for it.....Revan convinced him to. Pretty heroic to me.
The Republic was absolutely prepared for war by the time Empire arrived. Bad luck on the part of Vitiate I suppose.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Republic was absolutely prepared for war by the time Empire arrived. Bad luck on the part of Vitiate I suppose. That's what I said. "The Republic wasn't at full strength again until almost just prior to the war with the Vitiate", implying they were at full strength when Vitiate attacked. Though yeah they probably full recovered before I gave them credit for.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His motivation was getting brain blasted by Vitiate. If all he really cared about was beating Vitiate he'd have just used the Star Forge + Foundry to help the Republic beat him. He didn't even remember the Empire after his memories being corrupted from breaking V's control I'm pretty sure. Thanks Drew!

Or he didn't trust the Republic enough to "work" with it any more than he trusted them in SoR.