Superman Prime vs Kal Kent

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Dareangel
kal kent is empowered by the super sun during the entire fight. Superman prime cant lose the Guardian amp. who wins

Decimus
Prime most likely would win based on concrete pasted feats but I'm unsure since the SuperSun may or may not amp prime. Or could amp Kal 3000 while concurrently crippling Prime since the SuperSun would be intelligent enough to adapt to whichever being it is is actively supporting.

Galan007
Kal... Decisively.

SBP wouldn't receive the Super Sun's full boost, btw -- it only applies to members of the Superman Dynasty post-700th century. That's why mainstream Supes wasn't amped when he was transported to the 853rd century.

Dareangel
Originally posted by Galan007
Kal... Decisively.

SBP wouldn't receive the Super Sun's full boost, btw -- it only applies to members of the Superman Dynasty post-700th century. That's why mainstream Supes wasn't amped when he was transported to the 853rd century.

what feats do you think kal has to put him over Prime?

Dareangel
i mean kal kent is 99% of the time depowered because he is always in some other universe or something. the only time i think i recall he was full powered is trying to stop that moving galaxy which he couldnt and he needed titano to help him. also holding and capturing parasite in a force vision buble. cant tell how strong he is actually. sometimes when depowered he can take out firestorm by just breathing and stated he can destroy a giant red star. when further depowered he gets hurt by the metal men crew, which are what meta level beings? but then beats them. then he is further depowered and can punch thru time centeries.

other times, he is easily beaten by batman 1 million, one shotted by ultraman, beat up hard by those energy balls that could copy powers. i dont know his powers are inconcsistent. he also easily can be hurt by kryptonite while in his bio it says he doesnt have a weakness to it. he also got trapped in a time loop with batman 1 million in their own universe which means he was empowered by the super sun.

i dont know i simply look overall at him and even at his best i cant see him beat prime. mostly because of his character. it seems like kal kent is always avoiding the fight, and when he fights he doesnt have much will to fight. he is more of a boyscout than Clark. he may be powerful but he is simply not for the fighting mostly. he even let wonder woman fight ultraman and took off. i seriously believe if they fought kal kent would be down beaten on the ground with prime on top of him being the douche he is. maybe kal kent has the potential to give a fight but i just dont see him having what it takes.

apex_pretador
Prime wins

Zack M
Split

Dareangel
Originally posted by Zack M
Split

what feats do you think kal has to split with prime. kal also has showings in all star superman and he is showed to be more powerful than average sups, but he was trying to defeat that cronoverse creture with the entire superman squad from different universes while all star sups took that creture all by himself. also the fact kal kent couldnt handle solaris. only combined with green lantern together they were able to hold solaris in a force field long enough to exhaust it. if kal kent was that powerful he could just stop them all by himself without seeking help.

Dareangel
i mean, i see a lot of people here ranking kal kent as skyfather and i respect that honestly. but do you see a skyfather getting destroyed by those energy balls to the point he was down and crying. do you see a skyfather trying to stop a galaxy with everything he got because he knows it will be the end of his world and he just fails. sure its not easy a whole charging galaxy but still this is a skyfather level we are taking about. i personally see kal kent after a little research as trans leveler. and against GA prime, i dont see him win.

Galan007
Prime is a high-end trans-leveler at his base level. With the Guardian Amp, he's easily Skyfather-level in terms of physical stats, imo. Anyway, the main reason I believe Kal wins is because under the Super Sun, he really can't take any lasting damage.

Example:
While Kal was punching through time(and mind you, he was already VASTLY depowered at this point in the story -- couldn't even fly, ffs), he was expending so much energy that he was literally dying at the cellular level, and aging into nothingness. When Kal returned to the 853rd century and under the light of his Super Sun, all of that damage was repaired nigh-instantly, and he was returned to his 'normal' level:
http://i.imgur.com/XV19K9i.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AqBHraH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Xq7GPm3.jpg
So unless Prime obliterates him outright, I see any damage he delivers being insta-healed in the same manner. /shrug


*And yes, then you have esoteric abilities, like his galaxy-level Force-Vision to consider.



All of that being said, I have no problem with your opinion that Prime wins. I just disagree, is all. smile

Dareangel
Originally posted by Galan007
Prime is a high-end trans-leveler at his base level. With the Guardian Amp, he's easily Skyfather-level in terms of physical stats, imo. Anyway, the main reason I believe Kal wins is because under the Super Sun, he really can't take any lasting damage.

Example:
While Kal was punching through time(and mind you, he was already VASTLY depowered at this point in the story -- couldn't even fly, ffs), he was expending so much energy that he was literally dying at the cellular level, and aging into nothingness. When Kal returned to the 853rd century and under the light of his Super Sun, all of that damage was repaired nigh-instantly, and he was returned to his 'normal' level:
http://i.imgur.com/XV19K9i.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AqBHraH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Xq7GPm3.jpg
So unless Prime obliterates him outright, I see any damage he delivers being insta-repaired in the same manner. /shrug


*And yes, then you have esoteric abilities, like his galaxy-level Force-Vision to consider.



All of that being said, I have no problem with your opinion that Prime wins. I just disagree, is all. smile

wow you brought a great point which actually makes me re think everything. kal was indeed dying and within seconds he is fully recharged at full power because of the super sun. in that case honsetly i dont know if prime can beat him unless the super sun is taken away. great point galan i think i will have to agree with you.

DarkSaint85
Don't give in to Galan, he doesn't know anything....he draws his own scans.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
Prime is a high-end trans-leveler at his base level. With the Guardian Amp, he's easily Skyfather-level in terms of physical stats, imo. Anyway, the main reason I believe Kal wins is because under the Super Sun, he really can't take any lasting damage.

Example:
While Kal was punching through time(and mind you, he was already VASTLY depowered at this point in the story -- couldn't even fly, ffs), he was expending so much energy that he was literally dying at the cellular level, and aging into nothingness. When Kal returned to the 853rd century and under the light of his Super Sun, all of that damage was repaired nigh-instantly, and he was returned to his 'normal' level:
http://i.imgur.com/XV19K9i.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AqBHraH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Xq7GPm3.jpg
So unless Prime obliterates him outright, I see any damage he delivers being insta-healed in the same manner. /shrug


*And yes, then you have esoteric abilities, like his galaxy-level Force-Vision to consider.



All of that being said, I have no problem with your opinion that Prime wins. I just disagree, is all. smile

I don't disagree with your overall assertion, but I think there's a distinct logical leap from recharging depleted cells instantly and healing from a punch in the face. Of course, that's just my opinion and I don't have any proof...

Galan007
I see where you're coming from.

My thought process is that if the Super Sun can heal cellular damage that extensive, nigh-instantly, it *should* be able to heal basic physical damage just the same. While under the Super Sun it doesn't really seem like Kal can lose energy... Which is a problem, because Prime obviously *can* lose his Guardian amp. If nothing else, Kal would simply outlast him, imo.

So unless Prime musters the power to destroy him outright(which he never displayed, imo), OR brings Kryptonite to the party, I see Kal soaking pretty much everything he can dish out.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
Which is a problem, because Prime obviously *can* lose his Guardian amp. Originally posted by Dareangel
Superman prime cant lose the Guardian amp
wink

iceman24567
laughing

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
wink Thought of the OP, but Dareangel's response to my post certainly made it seem like Prime's energy *can* be diminished, so I guess we'll need clarification... confused

If Prime's energy cannot deplete either, this is a stalemate. Both would, for all intents and purposes, possess unbounded energy. Thus, the only way to win would be for one of them to essentially one-shot the other... And neither possesses the feats to say they could do that. Kal's FV *might* be able to contain/incapacitate Prime, but even that is questionable at best considering he can punch through dimensional walls and such.

Cogito
Or maaaaybe the super-ESP could pacify him, but SBP is probably too batshit f'ing crazy for that to work

Galan007
Yeah, I don't see ESP as a viable option against Prime either.


An ability that might be helpful, though, is Quantum Vision. S1M used it to deconstruct/contain Toyman's an anti-matter bomb. However, this wasn't just an ordinary bomb...

It was cable of exploiting/penetrating 'flaws' in dimensional space:
http://i.imgur.com/yK8gFu7.jpg

It could literally fold itself through time:
http://i.imgur.com/udIDXtl.jpg

It could reduce its size and mass by a factor of 7 trillion percent, and become subatomic:
http://i.imgur.com/Kt94Nwe.jpg

As mentioned above: it contained a solid fragment of Qward itself -- a piece of anti-matter. Upon detonation, the bomb was meant to perma-kill Resurrection Man and the Strategy Engine, along with the FoS + 6 billion acres surrounding it:
http://i.imgur.com/sZHcnls.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1iaEyfn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4h8fWmk.jpg

Resurrection Man was able to briefly contain the bomb by approximating the powers of a black hole, but the bomb's 'hyper-gravity compensators' nearly overwhelmed his abilities. Had S1M not arrived and saved the day, the bomb *would* have beaten RM's powers and detonated:
http://i.imgur.com/ZotJAzJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VUOiekq.jpg

Despite the bomb's many abilities, S1M's Quantum Vision was still able to contain and disassemble it, nigh-instantly. It also prevented any collateral damage from the anti-matter itself.


S1M only used QV once, so it is pretty much impossible to figure out its limits(or lack thereof)... The ability certainly seemed haxx AF, though. /shrug

Decimus
Originally posted by Galan007
Kal... Decisively.

SBP wouldn't receive the Super Sun's full boost, btw -- it only applies to members of the Superman Dynasty post-700th century. That's why mainstream Supes wasn't amped when he was transported to the 853rd century.

I could see either winning. The reason I give Prime the advantage over Kal are his feats on panel and his power set in against the some of the most powerful beings in a gauntlet type fashion. Prime has in his power set the ability to retcon characters he could use this to perturb Solaris (or even Kal) to amp himself or negate the Sun completely (now that I have though a moment more about the simulation). Kal does not have retconning abilities from what I've read and seen. It is also within Prime's power set to move planets and inhabitants FTL without any visible sign of effort and said inhabitants even becoming conscious of this. Then factor in the multiple flashes needed to dump him into the speed force this all before the guardian amp. Prime's speed being greater is probabilistically more likely being also a precrisis kryptonian virtually no upper bound explicitly shown or stated. In terms of present evidence Kal has a few esoteric abilities it's just their have not been any shown or stated that can counter what has been shown for Prime the rest is speculation in terms of Kal's potential and what would be shown Super Sun or not which may or may not be a factor to a character that battles universe destroying entities and has no real showings of magic doing more than annoying him. I guess superman wins wink

*typos: past and extra is-previous post*

Galan007
Originally posted by Decimus
Prime has in his power set the ability to retcon characters he could use this to perturb Solaris (or even Kal) to amp himself or negate the Sun completely (now that I have though a moment more about the simulation). Kal does not have retconning abilities from what I've read and seen. It is not part of Prime's powerset to retcon characters.

The retcons he caused were an inadvertent/sporadic side-effects of him striking specific dimensional walls from within the Limbo realm -- he literally had no control over what(or who) was affected by his tantrum... But that's neither here nor there. Had he not been in *that* specific place, punching *those* specific dimensional walls, Prime could *not* have caused said retcons.

Anyway, if you want to get technical, S1M did cause very minor retcons when he was punching time, but that doesn't really doesn't matter at all and is WAY off topic.

Dareangel
Well Prime cant lose his Guardian amp because if he could that would be kinda a certain win for kal kent who is getting empowered during the whole fight.

Dareangel
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Don't give in to Galan, he doesn't know anything....he draws his own scans.

laughing laughing laughing

Dareangel
by the way here is something that crossed my mind. in hourman 1 million if i am not mistaken, kal kent is beasten by that enetgy ball called else man. the else man can copy their foe powers and become a better version of their opponents. 2 questions. first one were they fighting at the 853 centery and kal kent was empowered by the super sun? because he got wrecked and hurt and wasnt really healing. secondly, the else man seem to turn into the golden superman 1 million when he fought kal kent. kal kent even stated he became his hero or something. was it a copy of golden superman 1 million? it doesnt make much sense that the else man can turn into such powerful beings i mean hourman 1 million took them all down eventually.

Galan007
Originally posted by Dareangel
2 questions. first one were they fighting at the 853 centery and kal kent was empowered by the super sun? because he got wrecked and hurt and wasnt really healing. When Kal and the Legion found out about the Else-Men, they 'ported to Rann-Prime to combat them:
http://i.imgur.com/lWLwTlR.jpg

And yes, Rann-Prime was obviously way outside their native solar system, thus way outside the reach of the Super Sun:
http://i.imgur.com/5YbNEfN.jpg

So no, Kal didn't have the opportunity to be recharged by the Sun after he was ragdolled by the Else-Man.

Originally posted by Dareangel
secondly, the else man seem to turn into the golden superman 1 million when he fought kal kent. kal kent even stated he became his hero or something. was it a copy of golden superman 1 million? it doesnt make much sense that the else man can turn into such powerful beings i mean hourman 1 million took them all down eventually. As you mentioned, the Else-Men were extremely powerful. Their basic powerset was to not only to copy a character's powers, but to expand upon them -- essentially becoming a 'better you':
http://i.imgur.com/3yyDrQ9.jpg

That said, I do not believe the Else-Man became Superman Prime 1M when it encountered Kal. However, it did become a better him:
http://i.imgur.com/fK2eKaL.jpg
"From the yellow sun that beats in my chest, to the powers I possess... I've just become the ultimate you!"

Kal implied this Else-Man had become the being he always imagined himself becoming:
http://i.imgur.com/zdtZtrL.jpg
"When I was a boy! I'd daydream about what I'd be like when I grow up! I'd be him!"


This isn't overly surprising. After all, an Else-Man was able to create an copy of the full Worlogog, from the micro-fraction that Hourman still possessed. Even Metron was utterly shocked by this:
http://i.imgur.com/ZyPeMxm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uQDhjLC.jpg

The only way to defeat the Else-Men was for Hourman to travel to the dawn of their universe, and freeze its big bang forever in time -- essentially preventing the Else-Men from ever existing:
http://i.imgur.com/s4skqtp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2ELHSWe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iPobdxk.jpg

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Don't give in to Galan, he doesn't know anything....he draws his own scans.

thumb up

He later enhances the images in photoshop, so they won't look like complete shit.

Galan007
At least it has taken you plebs over a decade to figure out how I roll...

https://media.giphy.com/media/UhZ4aTuiZeKha/giphy.gif





....F*ck, that gif makes me dizzy. sick

Dareangel
Thanks for the the explanation galan. the else man are sure powerful as hell. i hated that fight because kal was too EMO and the only one who didnt even try to fight his counterpart. but oh well.

Galan007
^ Kal didn't try to fight back because he and Hourman were telepathically devising a plan to temporarily incapacitate the Else-Men long enough to escape:
http://i.imgur.com/w7Agdwy.jpg

Staying there and trying to battle the Else-Men would have been futile. They simply could not have won.

Don Draper
Prime wins.

i've never viewed superman one million as more powerful than normal superman. he's all hype. srsly

Galan007
Either you're trolling, or you simply don't know anything much about the character. S1M was a LOT more powerful than mainstream Supes:
http://i.imgur.com/H80oMw4.jpg


How was he so powerful? Because at the turn of the 700th century, Superman Prime 1M returned to earth and endowed the Superman Dynasty with "powers FAR beyond ANY held by ANY metahuman EVER... Powers gleaned from the very edge of time and space"(in DC, the edge of time/space = the Source):
http://i.imgur.com/J3OxnKv.jpg

That's why, even in a significantly depowered state, S1M was still able to one-shot mid(arguably high)-heralds... With his breath alone:
http://i.imgur.com/Gll14k4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/etdRfUh.jpg

Dareangel
Kal kent even while depowered has better feats than average sups. what can confuse some to think he is not powerful is his character. he is not the guy to do much fighting and he always try to find the smarter way to deal with obstacles. unlike Prime he isnt looking for fights. thats the reason i always wanted to see a story with kal kent cuts loose or for some reason becomes evil for a short period of time for a nice stroy. while greatly depowered the metal man crew jumped him. they were getting a hold of him and is seemed like he is done. however once he realized he has no time to spare and he got to save the world blah blah blah, he destroys them easily even after they all combined themselves into a huge creture. and even then after the fight he says he is sorry that he had to do it. as i said already, he is probably the most boyscout superman out there and does his best to avoid hurting his foes.

Galan007
You can't blame Kal for not getting excitable when a new threat pops-up.

In his native timeline, he literally makes appointments for would-be conquerors. After giving them a tour of his solar system, said conquerors practically shit their pants and retreat:
http://i.imgur.com/u6KBKY2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oVg8EYN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5fslbjg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u7xenJP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LSDlNmg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mSWQ3jI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8FR8a2I.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ue6aCOH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/I5z72r0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xk8SAez.jpg

...And S1M gives these 'tours' several times a day, lol.

quanchi112
laughing out loud

Decimus
Originally posted by Galan007
It is not part of Prime's powerset to retcon characters.

The retcons he caused were an inadvertent/sporadic side-effects of him striking specific dimensional walls from within the Limbo realm -- he literally had no control over what(or who) was affected by his tantrum... But that's neither here nor there. Had he not been in *that* specific place, punching *those* specific dimensional walls, Prime could *not* have caused said retcons.

Anyway, if you want to get technical, S1M did cause very minor retcons when he was punching time, but that doesn't really doesn't matter at all and is WAY off topic.
After looking back at the entire run including numerous tie-ins the extra dimensions were needed for the retcons which were not under Prime's control. Looking at the scenario further I still can see no problem with the general consistency and methodology (minus the ability to retcon at will since both characters have retconned with stipulations)of my argument however that the other feats still put considerably more evidence into the camp of supporting Prime out manuevering SM1(both bloodlusted no CIS). What is stopping Prime from destroying Solaris faster than SM1 can react. Even Wally or any individual flash alone wasn't fast enough to combat Prime's pre-crisis speed which some how exists outside or in tandem to the speed force (which prime also escaped btw under his own abilities). SBP was so OP that he was left with a nose bleed and blood from the corner of his mouth after taking blows from Bart with the ENTIRE SF absorbed into him and Prime still went on to destroy the universe unfazed because his pre-crisis powers were so above and beyond anything on the field of play. Basically you would have to point to or show various speed feats not to mention strength and durability that match or exceed the feats (all of Primes) and then show how it isn't all rampant speculation against on panel feats which are to be clear the equivalent to physically recorded evidence information-facts. I can show given the parameters I will put forth an isomorphism for the Silver Surfer vs Dr Manhattan battle. One has feats (SS)and the other has a few feats against high street levelers and various untestable statements we have to take on honest in stead of anything objective. Until DrM comes and shows his abilities in Rebirth directly it becomes intractable that DrM can replicate and exceed all showings SS has shown so far but the same cannot be said for SS. Once DrM shows his capabilities in relation to others truly versatile and powerful then we can say with we have a metric and can deduce something approaching multiple sigmas based on the feats given that DrM is significantly more likely to win (probabilistically)the majority of battles over SS or it most likely becomes a no limits fallacy or some other bias. That being said if SM1 developed powers that negated or out does Prime's powers faster than Prime can react he would win decisively it's possible just improbable. Interesting battle though (Hopefully this is not DR TL or verbose for you guys) thumb up

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