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Can Luke succeed where his father failed? Fight takes place on Mustafar.

1. Sabers.
2. Force.
3. All out

It's more or less a stomp in Luke's favor.

Doubt it.

If Mustafar Anakin couldn't get past Obi-Wan's defenses, I don't see Luke doing it at this early point in his Jedi career.

Obi Wan, easily.

Luke with ease.

Originally posted by GM Yoda
Obi Wan, easily.


Originally posted by Ursumeles
Luke with ease.




I can see a consensus coming here easily enough.

Originally posted by Darth Thor


I can see a consensus coming here easily enough.
I made that as parody of GMs comment
I don't see winning Kenobi against a version of Luke, who trashed Vader, lol.

Kenobi

Luke, unless if you think Obi Wan >> Vader.

Obi Win

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke, unless if you think Obi Wan >> Vader. I don't think Obiwan > Vader and I don't think Star Wars exclusively deals in A > B > C logic. The Anakin vs Obiwan, Obiwan vs Dooku and Anakin vs Dooku fights are the textbook example of this.

Luke pummeled Vader to submission very quickly. He isn't losing to Obi-Wan.

Kenobi is out of his depth here. He dies.

Luke stomps.

Luke is not > Mustafar Anakin at this early stage.

If he wins it will be with a lot of difficulty. No way he stomps.

Luke is > Mustafar Anakin at this stage.

Wow. Unsupported statements are fun.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I don't think Obiwan > Vader and I don't think Star Wars exclusively deals in A > B > C logic. The Anakin vs Obiwan, Obiwan vs Dooku and Anakin vs Dooku fights are the textbook example of this.

Well if we're looking at it on a case by case basis, Luke was overwhelming Vader through his sheer strength in the Force - Vader was stumbling backwards even when Luke wasn't touching him. So even if Obi Wan is technically superior, it won't matter much because he'll be vomiting just from Luke's presence.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Luke is > Mustafar Anakin at this stage.

Wow. Unsupported statements are fun.


You really want me to get statements out? Because I'm being much kinder than Lucas's commentary. And let's not even think about Filoni's.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well if we're looking at it on a case by case basis, Luke was overwhelming Vader through his sheer strength in the Force - Vader was stumbling backwards even when Luke wasn't touching him. So even if Obi Wan is technically superior, it won't matter much because he'll be vomiting just from Luke's presence.

Vader was taken back unexpectedly by the power of Luke's rage amp. He was also taken back unexpectedly by Galens power in TFUI, but approached him much more cautiously in TFUII in which Vader had the definitive edge the whole fight.

Not that any of this has got anything to do with Kenobi whose defences held throughout ROTS Anakin's frenzy attack.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Vader was taken back unexpectedly by the power of Luke's rage amp.

You're really suggesting that if Vader just had some forewarning, he could've won that?



The fight in TFU was close, and it isn't clear if Vader grew more powerful by TFUII, or if the Starkiller clone is weaker. Regardless, you're basically dismissing a very clear showing on rage Luke's part - his only showing for that matter - because it could just be the product of Vader being caught off guard. You could do that with anything.



It's a matter of Luke's power in the Force making Vader stumble around even when Luke isn't touching him; it's not a question of bladework or Obi Wan's soresu.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're really suggesting that if Vader just had some forewarning, he could've won that?



The fight in TFU was close, and it isn't clear if Vader grew more powerful by TFUII, or if the Starkiller clone is weaker. Regardless, you're basically dismissing a very clear showing on rage Luke's part - his only showing for that matter - because it could just be the product of Vader being caught off guard. You could do that with anything.



It's a matter of Luke's power in the Force making Vader stumble around even when Luke isn't touching him; it's not a question of bladework or Obi Wan's soresu.


Of course it'd be different if Vader expected that level of power. He was taken by surprise by the power of Luke's rage.

And what Anakin didn't have greater power in the Force than Obi-Wan? Lol None of that Luke/Vader fight is relevant to Luke getting past Kenobi's perfect Soresu defence.

ROTS Anakin couldn't who had potential =/> Luke, but who was also 3 years post completion of his training. So unlikely Padawan Luke will whale through him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You really want me to get statements out? Because I'm being much kinder than Lucas's commentary. And let's not even think about Filoni's.

Go ahead.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Of course it'd be different if Vader expected that level of power. He was taken by surprise by the power of Luke's rage.


He was so thoroughly outmatched that there's no reason to think some better forewarning would've changed anything. It's not like Luke got a cheap shot in; he was consistently dominating Vader over an extended period of time, to the point where Vader could barely stand straight.



Kenobi won't be able to put up any soresu defense when he's being overwhelmed with that kind of Force power. Vader is stumbling around and barely able to put one arm up to defend himself.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was so thoroughly outmatched that there's no reason to think some better forewarning would've changed anything. It's not like Luke got a cheap shot in; he was consistently dominating Vader over an extended period of time, to the point where Vader could barely stand straight.



Kenobi won't be able to put up any soresu defense when he's being overwhelmed with that kind of Force power. Vader is stumbling around and barely able to put one arm up to defend himself.


The initial attack put Vader on the defensive and began to stagger him so you don't know that.

What level of power? Quantify for me how it was a more powerful attack than ROTS Anakin's.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Go ahead.

Okay. You asked for it. Will post it when I'm in my computer.

I expect your confirmation of ROTJ Luke -> ROTS Anakin in return.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The initial attack put Vader on the defensive and began to stagger him so you don't know that.


He was staggering even when Luke wasn't touching him and was literally swinging wildly at the air. If your alternative explanation is that Luke's blows were so powerful that they caused Vader to strut around randomly for several seconds after contact, it doesn't really help your case.



I think it's safe to say that Darth Vader is stronger in the Force than Obi Wan, and yet Vader couldn't even properly hold his lightsaber against Luke's presence, while Obi Wan fended off Anakin's pretty well.

@ Nova:


Originally posted by Darth Thor
According to Lucas, Luke is not a match for Vader as of ROTJ:

"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge.

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary.

Luke beats his arms off

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was staggering even when Luke wasn't touching him and was literally swinging wildly at the air. If your alternative explanation is that Luke's blows were so powerful that they caused Vader to strut around randomly for several seconds after contact, it doesn't really help your case.



I think it's safe to say that Darth Vader is stronger in the Force than Obi Wan, and yet Vader couldn't even properly hold his lightsaber against Luke's presence, while Obi Wan fended off Anakin's pretty well.

Okay, so now you're going by bad choreography? Yes please explain how Luke was too powerful for Vader by swinging in the air..

I think it's safe to say ROTS Anakin is way stronger in the Force than Obi-Wan.

So again how is the Luke/Vader Father/Son fight at all relevant to ROTS Obi-Wan. Neither of you 2 have yet to provide any evidence that Luke's attack would be stronger than Anakin's. Not have you provided any sound logic for anyone to think that.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
@ Nova:

Cool. You just twisted a quote to suit your agenda.

What it actually says is Luke isn't equipped to defeat Vader. But we know from actual events he does anyways which makes the feat all the more impressive.

This is him before becoming enraged.

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/5382415-luke+vs+vader+1.jpg

This is him after.

"He rushed to his father with a frenzy he'd never known. Nor had Vader. The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it. They locked swords, body to body. When Luke pushed Vader back to break the clinch, the Dark Lord hit his head on an over-hanging beam in the cramped space. He stumbled backward even farther, out of the low-hanging area. Luke pursued him relentlessly.

Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate.

The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist.

The hand, along with bits of metal, wires, and electronic devices, clattered uselessly away while Vader's lightsaber tumbled over the edge of the span, into the endless shaft below, without a trace." - Return of the Jedi.

Glad we could sort this out.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Okay, so now you're going by bad choreography? Yes please explain how Luke was too powerful for Vader by swinging in the air..


If you want to look at creator's intent, do you think the intent of that scene was to show that Luke was much weaker than Vader even when enraged and just got lucky because Vader was overconfident or something?



His inhibited Mustafar self is not to the same margin that rage! Luke was beyond Vader.



Vader is far more powerful than Obi Wan, and lost resoundingly to Luke.

What an idiot

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Doubt it.

If Mustafar Anakin couldn't get past Obi-Wan's defenses, I don't see Luke doing it at this early point in his Jedi career.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2


Why not? Mustafar Anakin was hindered to the point he couldn't overwhelm Obi Wan with TK and Luke overwhelmed Vader in a rage state.

Luke dies..look what happened to his old man when he tried to rage out on Obi Wan....

lol so people really think Obi Wan > Rage! RotJ Luke >>>>>> Vader?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was so thoroughly outmatched that there's no reason to think some better forewarning would've changed anything. It's not like Luke got a cheap shot in; he was consistently dominating Vader over an extended period of time, to the point where Vader could barely stand straight.



Kenobi won't be able to put up any soresu defense when he's being overwhelmed with that kind of Force power. Vader is stumbling around and barely able to put one arm up to defend himself.

D. Thor is a Vader fanboy unable to cope with reality. It can be so cruel at times to the Vader faithful.

and to clear this up, Vader was much stronger than OLD Obi Wan; guaranteed you put ANH Vader up against ROTS Obi Wan its a much better fight that goes in Kenobi favour.

Also Vader wasnt ever trying to kill Luke or fight him 100% in ROTJ; he was trying to turn him, he was also conflicted about fighting Luke in the first place, or did you all miss that line in the film where Luke basically says that verbatim?

Originally posted by relentless1
and to clear this up, Vader was much stronger than OLD Obi Wan; guaranteed you put ANH Vader up against ROTS Obi Wan its a much better fight that goes in Kenobi favour.

Also Vader wasnt ever trying to kill Luke or fight him 100% in ROTJ; he was trying to turn him, he was also conflicted about fighting Luke in the first place, or did you all miss that line in the film where Luke basically says that verbatim?

Prove it. Prove RotS Obi Wan was superior to Old Ben. Because it's confirmed he grew more powerful even though logically his other attributes atrophied. I'd say the only way to rank him as a combatant would be based off his performance against Vader and if that's the case you can't use Old Ben as a measuring stick for how RotS Obi Wan would do against Vader.

Did you miss the line in the novel where Vader states he's perfectly willing to kill Luke?

Originally posted by relentless1
and to clear this up, Vader was much stronger than OLD Obi Wan; guaranteed you put ANH Vader up against ROTS Obi Wan its a much better fight that goes in Kenobi favour.

Also Vader wasnt ever trying to kill Luke or fight him 100% in ROTJ; he was trying to turn him, he was also conflicted about fighting Luke in the first place, or did you all miss that line in the film where Luke basically says that verbatim? And Luke wasn't conflicted about fighting his dad ? You're an idiot.

Nova and Ellimist my responses will come but might not be today.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Prove it. Prove RotS Obi Wan was superior to Old Ben. Because it's confirmed he grew more powerful even though logically his other attributes atrophied. I'd say the only way to rank him as a combatant would be based off his performance against Vader and if that's the case you can't use Old Ben as a measuring stick for how RotS Obi Wan would do against Vader.

Did you miss the line in the novel where Vader states he's perfectly willing to kill Luke?

just look at the way old ben moves compared to Obi Wan, and Vader even says point blank "your powers are weak old man" its right there in black and white

also novels don't count when they are contradicted by the films themselves; Luke calls Vader out for being conflicted and even the Emperor does earlier when Vader senses his son. In fact the whole film has scenes in it showing Vader unwilling to fight his son, the scene where he finds out Luke made his own lightsaber for instance... "its...too late for me son"...watch the films, its all there.

Originally posted by quanchi112
And Luke wasn't conflicted about fighting his dad ? You're an idiot.

lol, watch ROTJ again anal bead; Luke is trying and is angry when he does due to the goading of the Emperor; when he kicks Vader down the stairs he had struck out at the Emperor in anger...when he bests Vader in that exchange the Emperor points out that it is his anger giving him that power... Is it really that hard to understand your dimwit?

^ Old Ben might be more powerful in his mastery of TK and as a result might be a more powerful overall combatant, and yet still might be a bit rusty in Saber skill.

Vader's most potent power is also his TK. Which is why this whole Luke > Vader > Obi-Wan faulty ABC logic doesn't work. But it will all be in my response to Nova and Ellimist hopefully tomorrow.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Cool. You just twisted a quote to suit your agenda.


Twisted it? Dude all I did was quote it..

And all I said was I'm much kinder to ROTJ Luke than Lucas is, which is quite clear from my comments on this thread and from Lucas's that I quoted.

As for my Agenda, I've only slightly lowered my opinion of ROTJ Luke AFTER hearing this commentary.

So I'd keep conspiracies about Agenda's out of a simple debate concerning the level Luke was at as of ROTJ.



Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
What it actually says is Luke isn't equipped to defeat Vader. But we know from actual events he does anyways which makes the feat all the more impressive.


If he's not equipped to it, then he can't do it without some kind of extenuating cricumstances, e.g. Vader is holding back, or Luke is amped. Simple as.




Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
This is him before becoming enraged.

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/5382415-luke+vs+vader+1.jpg

This is him after.

"He rushed to his father with a frenzy he'd never known. Nor had Vader. The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it. They locked swords, body to body. When Luke pushed Vader back to break the clinch, the Dark Lord hit his head on an over-hanging beam in the cramped space. He stumbled backward even farther, out of the low-hanging area. Luke pursued him relentlessly.

Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate.

The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist.

The hand, along with bits of metal, wires, and electronic devices, clattered uselessly away while Vader's lightsaber tumbled over the edge of the span, into the endless shaft below, without a trace." - Return of the Jedi.

Glad we could sort this out.



Yes I have seen ROTJ. I do know Luke beat Vader in a Saber fight.

In terms of your sources, they are outdated even for Legends. Given they were all made Pre-Pequels. The ROTJ Novel for instance has Owen being Obi-Wan's brother.

However what I provided for you was a much more updated Creator commentary.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If you want to look at creator's intent, do you think the intent of that scene was to show that Luke was much weaker than Vader even when enraged and just got lucky because Vader was overconfident or something?


I mean I've already posted creator intent on regular ROTJ Luke.

Him overpowering a conflicted Vader in a Rage Amp doesn't mean he'd necessarily get past the defenses of the Master of Defensive technique. One who deflected all the rage induced attacks of ROTS Skywalker.





Originally posted by The Ellimist
His inhibited Mustafar self is not to the same margin that rage! Luke was beyond Vader.


Stretching what happened a bit. The more precise explanation would be that Luke in his rage amp was beyond a conflicted Vader in a Saber only battle.



Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vader is far more powerful than Obi Wan, and lost resoundingly to Luke.


Vader never utilized TK (his most potent weapon) on ROTJ Luke. So this A>B>C argument won't work.

ROTJ Luke didn't even seem able to TK the scout troopers he was chasing on Endor and as per Lucas was not properly equipped to defeat Vader in an all out.

And it's nothing against Luke. No newly trained Knight could be fully equipped to take down Vader. Remember TCW Anakin going up against Dooku? He was doing fine in Sabers, but was outmatched in TK.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Twisted it? Dude all I did was quote it..

And all I said was I'm much kinder to ROTJ Luke than Lucas is, which is quite clear from my comments on this thread and from Lucas's that I quoted.

As for my Agenda, I've only slightly lowered my opinion of ROTJ Luke AFTER hearing this commentary.

So I'd keep conspiracies about Agenda's out of a simple debate concerning the level Luke was at as of ROTJ.






If he's not equipped to it, then he can't do it without some kind of extenuating cricumstances, e.g. Vader is holding back, or Luke is amped. Simple as.








Yes I have seen ROTJ. I do know Luke beat Vader in a Saber fight.

In terms of your sources, they are outdated even for Legends. Given they were all made Pre-Pequels. The ROTJ Novel for instance has Owen being Obi-Wan's brother.

However what I provided for you was a much more updated Creator commentary.

What this boils down to it seems is your interpretation of the quote "not equipped."

I see that as saying if Luke was a normal Force user he would not be able to defeat Vaser but because he's not, because he has the potential of the Chosen One, he is able to defeat his father due to his own enormous ability. This is confirmed in the novel itself where it praises Luke for his unparalleled technique and by Lucas's commentary on Luke's potential.

If you want though think of it like this. Luke could have been overwhelmed and kill by Vader's force abilities but Vader did not employ them against him because while he was willing to kill him he wanted to turn him first and foremost which is why he went all out on him in a duel but did not employ TK. Perhaps that's what the quotes referring to if we're going by your interpretation.

Originally posted by Azronger
It's more or less a stomp in Luke's favor.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
What this boils down to it seems is your interpretation of the quote "not equipped."

I see that as saying if Luke was a normal Force user he would not be able to defeat Vaser but because he's not, because he has the potential of the Chosen One, he is able to defeat his father due to his own enormous ability. This is confirmed in the novel itself where it praises Luke for his unparalleled technique and by Lucas's commentary on Luke's potential.


Agree to disagree that's what Lucas meant. To me not being fully equipped would account for his level of training + raw power/potential up to that point.


Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
If you want though think of it like this. Luke could have been overwhelmed and kill by Vader's force abilities but Vader did not employ them against him because while he was willing to kill him he wanted to turn him first and foremost which is why he went all out on him in a duel but did not employ TK. Perhaps that's what the quotes referring to if we're going by your interpretation.

Wait so we agree. Vader was going all out in a saber duel, just not Force?

Because that's been my stance for years.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Wait so we agree. Vader was going all out in a saber duel, just not Force?

Because that's been my stance for years.


I've got no issue with that. The Force is a big factor which is why I'm rejecting the notion of ROTJ Luke > Vader in an all out.

But still even in Sabers the rage surely would have amped Luke. And that's all Vader/Palpatine were getting him to do throughout the fight. Getting him to attack in a rage as that's when he's most susceptible to the dark side.

So I'd probably say they were about equal in Sabers, but Vader >> Luke in Force and all out.

I'd agree with that for the most part and yes his rage amped him.

I'd say it's probably that Luke is >= Vader in pure sabers.