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1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All-Out

Palpatine wins if he's going all out and not bullshitting around.

Palpatine in all.

Total and complete wrong answers so far. The team wins, and every single time at that.

^^^LMAO

With Windu's RotS amp and Palpatine going all out:

Force: Sidious with some difficulty
Sabers: Team 10/10
All-Out: Team 7/10

Standard Mace:
Force: Sidious
Sabers: Team 6/10
All Out: Palpatine 6-7/10

I could see palpatine winning but entirely sure that he would

WINDU'S STATE FROM ORIGINAL ROTS
1. Sabers only - team wins 10/10 without a contest. Mace=Palpatine, and Dooku provides a leverage huge enough in this stalemate, that Palpatine stands no chance.
2. Force only - Palpatine. Dooku can't stand up to Palpatine, and while Windu should demonstrate a higher power than usual in this setup, he can't save Dooku and falls miserably in 1v1. Palpatine 10/10 with some resistance.
3. All out - Palpatine won't have enough space to dispose of Dooku with Windu's full presure, and with Dooku there, won't be able to direct his powers at Windu with enough power to dispose of him. However, Dooku can die protecting Mace if Palpatine attacks with the Force, and then it's game over, and Palpatine can get the lucky opportunity to throw Dooku out of the window. Team 7-8/10.

STANDARD MACE
1. Sabers only - team 5-6/10.
2. Force only - Palpatine 10/10.
3. All out - Palpatine 10/10.

Can sidious implement jar'kai in this battle?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Total and complete wrong answers so far. The team wins, and every single time at that.


The boards have gone a bit Palpatine cuckoo recently

I don't know where you've been but Palp has actually fallen in a lot of people's minds.

Windu solos. He already did so.

^^^LMAO

Mace solos- again.

Originally posted by darthbane77
^^^LMAO

Originally posted by darthbane77
^^^LMAO I do not care about your silly opinion facts actually matter.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I do not care about your silly opinion facts actually matter. Than provide some instead of spouting your usual bullshit opinions.

@Quan.
Within the public office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, a last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow. Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.

- Source : Revenge of the Sith Novel
Suggests that Windu's use of Vapaad was what allowed his "victory." As does this quote.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center- And let it fountain out again. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him.

- Source : Revenge of the Sith Novel

This one suggests that Vapaad and Shatterpoint were allowed him to win.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. Impasse. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.

Feeling for its shatterpoint.

- Source : Revenge of the Sith Novel

So, Windu's "victory" was highly circumstantial. And other evidence even suggests that Sidious allowed Windu to win, but I'll get into that later if you desire to lose so badly.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Than provide some instead of spouting your usual bullshit opinions. Film played out the fight. Palpatine lost.

Originally posted by darthbane77
@Quan.
Within the public office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, a last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow. Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.

- Source : Revenge of the Sith Novel
Suggests that Windu's use of Vapaad was what allowed his "victory." As does this quote.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center- And let it fountain out again. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him.

- Source : Revenge of the Sith Novel

This one suggests that Vapaad and Shatterpoint were allowed him to win.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. Impasse. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.

Feeling for its shatterpoint.

- Source : Revenge of the Sith Novel

So, Windu's "victory" was highly circumstantial. And other evidence even suggests that Sidious allowed Windu to win, but I'll get into that later if you desire to lose so badly. You could say that about any fight. Fact is Windu won while your opinion over the events is just an opinion.

The facts also are that:

- Maul was defeated by padawan Kenobi
- Maul was defeated by a blind Kanan
- Maul was lured into a trap by padawan Tano
- Kylo Ren was defeated by the untrained force and lightsaber user Rey

Originally posted by quanchi112
You could say that about any fight. Fact is Windu won while your opinion over the events is just an opinion. It's not my opinion you dumbass. These quotes are all from the ROTS novel, which EXPANDS on the events of the film; giving more context to the movie. These quotes make it pretty clear that Windu won because of Vapaad and Shatterpoint, you have no argument.

Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on. He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's.

- Source : Revenge of the Sith Novel

Windu was entirely focused on Sidious' and his shatterpoint during the fight. Again, suggesting that Shatterpoint was one of the only reasons WIndu was victorious.

Originally posted by darthbane77
It's not my opinion you dumbass. These quotes are all from the ROTS novel, which EXPANDS on the events of the film; giving more context to the movie. These quotes make it pretty clear that Windu won because of Vapaad and Shatterpoint, you have no argument. So tools he can use somehow make it less impressive but tools Sidious uses are fair game. How deliciously hypocritical of you. Windu beat him fair and square, crybaby. Sheev is overrated.

Originally posted by Kurk
The facts also are that:

- Maul was defeated by padawan Kenobi
- Maul was defeated by a blind Kanan
- Maul was lured into a trap by padawan Tano
- Kylo Ren was defeated by the untrained force and lightsaber user Rey Maul let his guard down after he skillfully disarmed him.

Maul previously had Kanan dead to rights. Tano intervened. Maul was overconfident and went off the cliff. Maul just recently bfrd him into space for yet another win. Unseen allies make it an unfair fight. Against no incoming threats Kenobi and Anakin were trapped in ray shields.

We don't know that but he was clearly injured prior to their fight.

Wait until the next film my First Order doubting simpleton.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So tools he can use somehow make it less impressive but tools Sidious uses are fair game. How deliciously hypocritical of you. Windu beat him fair and square, crybaby. Sheev is overrated. Way to misinterpret my words. My point is that Windu only won because of Shatterpoint and Vapaad, as my quotes prove. Otherwise, Sidious would have blitzed Windu just like he blitzed the other three. And there's always the fact that Sidious sensed Anakin's approach and threw the fight to trick Anakin into falling to the Dark Side.

You still have yet to counter any of my points.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul let his guard down after he skillfully disarmed him.

Maul previously had Kanan dead to rights. Tano intervened. Maul was overconfident and went off the cliff. Maul just recently bfrd him into space for yet another win. Unseen allies make it an unfair fight. Against no incoming threats Kenobi and Anakin were trapped in ray shields.

We don't know that but he was clearly injured prior to their fight.

Wait until the next film my First Order doubting simpleton.
You are clearly looking for excuses. Maul and Kylo's opponents won square and fair while your opinion over the events is just an opinion.

Originally posted by Kurk
You are clearly looking for excuses. Maul and Kylo's opponents won square and fair while your opinion over the events is just an opinion. As is usual for him.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Way to misinterpret my words. My point is that Windu only won because of Shatterpoint and Vapaad, as my quotes prove. Otherwise, Sidious would have blitzed Windu just like he blitzed the other three. And there's always the fact that Sidious sensed Anakin's approach and threw the fight to trick Anakin into falling to the Dark Side. No proof he threw the fight just conjecture by fanboys. So Windu resisted due to his own innate abilities. Glad you agree that he won under his own ability. He does so again here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No proof he threw the fight just conjecture by fanboys. So Windu resisted due to his own innate abilities. Glad you agree that he won under his own ability. He does so again here. Circumstantial abilities. Sidious is > Yoda which inherently makes him > Windu. Sidious is superior no matter what. His victory was purely circumstantial. As I proved.

Originally posted by Kurk
You are clearly looking for excuses. Maul and Kylo's opponents won square and fair while your opinion over the events is just an opinion. I cited the context and Maul had the advantage and clear victories on his own. Palpatine was unable to muster a worthwhile defense after he was disarmed hence the Anakin pleading.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Circumstantial abilities. Sidious is > Yoda which inherently makes him > Windu. Sidious is superior no matter what. His victory was purely circumstantial. As I proved. Abc is trash you hillbilly. Everything is situational but we don't ignore how the fight went.

Windu won Yoda lost get over it, inbred. You seem to ignore dem facts.

While there are no official sources saying Palpatine threw the duel, the evidence we have does suggest exactly that.

1: Sidious is a master manipulator.
2: Sidious wanted to trick Anakin into turning Dark Side.
3: Sidious' lightning was overpowering Windu in the novel. (Once more suggesting superiority.)
4: Palpatine has used feints and deception before, the fight's events fit his MO.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Abc is trash you hillbilly. Everything is situational but we don't ignore how the fight went.

Windu won Yoda lost get over it, inbred. You seem to ignore dem facts. I just won. You get hostile and defensive when you realize you've lost. Begone plebian, I have no more time for swine such as yourself.

Originally posted by darthbane77
While there are no official sources saying Palpatine threw the duel, the evidence we have does suggest exactly that.

1: Sidious is a master manipulator.
2: Sidious wanted to trick Anakin into turning Dark Side.
3: Sidious' lightning was overpowering Windu in the novel. (Once more suggesting superiority.)
4: Palpatine has used feints and deception before, the fight's events fit his MO. As I said no proof. If you make a claim its up to you to prove it. Are you new to debating ?

Originally posted by darthbane77
I just won. You get hostile and defensive when you realize you've lost. Begone plebian, I have no more time for swine such as yourself. You ignored canon fights and outcomes and made more baseless claims based on abc logic. I insult people who want to live in delusional worlds. That'd be you.

If there are no sources we must use the available evidence, which back my argument in this case. As for being new to debating, no, I'm not. As evident by the fact that I have now bested you three times. Your being too ignorant and retarded to understand and accept that isn't my problem. Yet you haven't countered ANYTHING I've said with anything other than unsubstantiated opinions. Your debating skills are woefully lacking.

Originally posted by darthbane77
If there are no sources we must use the available evidence, which back my argument in this case. As for being new to debating, no, I'm not. As evident by the fact that I have now bested you three times. Your being too ignorant and retarded to understand and accept that isn't my problem. Yet you haven't countered ANYTHING I've said with anything other than unsubstantiated opinions. Your debating skills are woefully lacking. Saying you bested me while ignoring the evidence and making things up you can't prove is being delusional and stubborn. Two traits you shouldn't embrace. I countered you with facts. Saying Yoda is better than Windu is making a baseless claim.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I cited the context and Maul had the advantage and clear victories on his own. Palpatine was unable to muster a worthwhile defense after he was disarmed hence the Anakin pleading.
Here Quanchi I'll make it easy for you.

All you have to do is answer yes or no.

Was Maul bisected by padawan Kenobi in TPM?
Was Maul thrown off a cliff by a blind Kanan?
Did Kylo Ren fall face first into the ground after engaging with Rey?

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you are using hyperbole from a book to sell your madness. Lol. This is how sad you've become. Yoda is more powerful I fully agree but he isn't more formidable. Once again you confuse power with more formidable.

Facts show two fair fights. Windu wins and Yoda loses unable to pin Sidious in the sort of defenseless position Windu had him in.

Cue the weak argument had the environment been different Yoda would have won which is speculative and opinion based.

Your move, fanboy. That's the thing, Yoda wasn't capable of winning of defeating Sidious; BECAUSE Sidious is more powerful than him and is more powerful than Windu by extension; as proved by the now many quotes I have provided you with. Aside from the "avatar of light" part, there's no hyperbole in any of the quotes I just provided; and even that bit of hyperbole is just as as effective as Sidious or Vitiate's "dark side incanrate" quotes. Your desperation is palpable now. Concede before I embarrass you further.

Originally posted by Kurk
Here Quanchi I'll make it easy for you.

All you have to do is answer yes or no.

Was Maul bisected by padawan Kenobi in TPM?
Was Maul thrown off a cliff by a blind Kanan?
Did Kylo Ren fall face first into the ground after engaging with Rey? Context.

Originally posted by darthbane77
That's the thing, Yoda wasn't capable of winning of defeating Sidious; BECAUSE Sidious is more powerful than him and is more powerful than Windu by extension; as proved by the now many quotes I have provided you with. Aside from the "avatar of light" part, there's no hyperbole in any of the quotes I just provided; and even that bit of hyperbole is just as as effective as Sidious or Vitiate's "dark side incanrate" quotes. Your desperation is palpable now. Concede before I embarrass you further. Being more powerful doesn't equate to being more formidable as evidenced by Windu defeating Palpatine whereas the more powerful Yoda failed. That's all hyperbole which you don't the meaning of apparently. You've only embarrassed yourself. Make ep running from the film facts.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Being more powerful doesn't equate to being more formidable as evidenced by Windu defeating Palpatine whereas the more powerful Yoda failed. That's all hyperbole which you don't the meaning of apparently. You've only embarrassed yourself. Make ep running from the film facts. Literally all but the "avatar of light" part is not hyperbole, they're quotes about how dangerous and powerful Yoda is. Another example: Yoda has bested Dooku twice, Windu hasn't done it once. Yoda is more powerful AND is a superior duelist, he IS more formidable. Once again, as suggested by the SOURCES I provided. Your desperation gets stronger with every comment.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Literally all but the "avatar of light" part is not hyperbole, they're quotes about how dangerous and powerful Yoda is. Another example: Yoda has bested Dooku twice, Windu hasn't done it once. Yoda is more powerful AND is a superior duelist, he IS more formidable. Once again, as suggested by the SOURCES I provided. Your desperation gets stronger with every comment. Hyperbolic quotes which can't be measured you dimwit. Yoda didn't best Dooku in AOTC. Yoda lost to Palpatine in rots. Windu bested Palpatine in Rots. This isn't rocket science, Facebook debater.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Hyperbolic quotes which can't be measured you dimwit. Yoda didn't best Dooku in AOTC. Yoda lost to Palpatine in rots. Windu bested Palpatine in Rots. This isn't rocket science, Facebook debater. Windu bested him circumstantially, which is the entire point I'm trying to convey (and have already proven at least twice over.) None of those quotes are hyperbole, you just have no better counter. "Facebook debater", most people there know every bit as much as people here; and that's not even an insult considering a "Facebook debater" is still a debater, something nobody can say about you.

Originally posted by darthbane77
@Quan.
Within the public office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, a last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow. Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.

- Source : Revenge of the Sith Novel
Suggests that Windu's use of Vapaad was what allowed his "victory." .
Are you suggesting that Mace can use Vapaad only in exceptional circumstances, and not at will?

Originally posted by GM Yoda
Are you suggesting that Mace can use Vapaad only in exceptional circumstances, and not at will? Not at all. He can always use Vapaad, but it's more the circumstances of his fight with Sidious that allowed it to work so well than anything. Windu was fighting for the very survival of the Republic and the Jedi, things that he loved dearly and would do whatever it took to save. His devotion and determination in that circumstance allowed his focus to increase and his Vapaas to work on overdrive. Without the circumstances he was fighting with in the novel and film, Vapaad alone would not be enough to defeat Sidious.

^^^As substantiation for that claim (fighting for the Republic's existence being the reason Vapaad worked so well; here's the quote (obviously in conjunction with the others I've posted in this thread) that backs it up.

"Yoda is more powerful I fully agree but he isn't more formidable."- quanchi112

Retardation at its finest.

Yoda's mastered every Lightsaber form, has superior mastery of TK, and is more powerful in the Force. So no Windu's not more formidable LMAO


There were differences in the environment and starting factors for both Yoda vs Palpatine and Windu vs Palpatine, so you can't just go by the result of those to compare Windu to Yoda (unless of course you're a Troll).

Facts are facts, and everything I've stated about Yoda are also facts come directly from canon source books.

Sidious stomps.

Sheev seems convinced Dooku + Asajj have the potential to overthrow him... Although he's just a paranoid megalomaniac, so I wouldn't trust his opinion.

Yeah, Sidious takes this.

Originally posted by Azronger
Sidious stomps.


This isn't Maul and Opress.

Dooku has fought off Yoda once. Windu has solod Sidious once.

So No way he's stomping this duo.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
This isn't Maul and Opress.

Dooku has fought off Yoda once. Windu has solod Sidious once.

So No way he's stomping this duo.

Context.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Context.
Your double standards are despicable. They only apply to the characters you like eh?

Originally posted by darthbane77
Windu bested him circumstantially, which is the entire point I'm trying to convey (and have already proven at least twice over.) None of those quotes are hyperbole, you just have no better counter. "Facebook debater", most people there know every bit as much as people here; and that's not even an insult considering a "Facebook debater" is still a debater, something nobody can say about you. Every fight is circumstantial this isn't a brand new concept exclusive to their fight. You're using double standards because you're upset Windu won. You're so upset you also believe Palpatine threw it despite no direct evidence supporting this fan prone theory.

Originally posted by Kurk
Your double standards are despicable. They only apply to the characters you like eh? I have broken down the context for all said experiences. Reread the thread and pm me your apology you stain on MY Star Wars universe.

Originally posted by Kurk
Your double standards are despicable. They only apply to the characters you like eh?

Hm?

Kurk are u seriously spending ur time on this

learn to code or ravage some muslim on a street

Sorry, I though you were responding to me, Kurk.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
"Yoda is more powerful I fully agree but he isn't more formidable."- quanchi112

Retardation at its finest.

Yoda's mastered every Lightsaber form, has superior mastery of TK, and is more powerful in the Force. So no Windu's not more formidable LMAO


There were differences in the environment and starting factors for both Yoda vs Palpatine and Windu vs Palpatine, so you can't just go by the result of those to compare Windu to Yoda (unless of course you're a Troll).

Facts are facts, and everything I've stated about Yoda are also facts come directly from canon source books. Greater power doesn't equate more formidable. If it did Yoda would have beaten Dooku.

Double standards are double standards. You're trying to make excuses to ignore the facts. Hyperbole is hyperbole. Yoda being more powerful didn't help him stomp Dooku. Did it ?

^ Maul lost to a padawan.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sheev seems convinced Dooku + Asajj have the potential to overthrow him... Although he's just a paranoid megalomaniac, so I wouldn't trust his opinion.

Yeah, Sidious takes this. He lost to Windu you fanatic. Watch the films since you obviously haven't.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Every fight is circumstantial this isn't a brand new concept exclusive to their fight. You're using double standards because you're upset Windu won. You're so upset you also believe Palpatine threw it despite no direct evidence supporting this fan prone theory. Every fight does have varying factors, but it's not every time that there's an entirely unique factor like there was in the ROTS film and Novelization. Every source I provided confirms that Yoda is superior to Windu and that Sidious is superior to Yoda, the quotes confirm it; that's the end of it. They also confirm how circumstantial Windu's victory was, that the fact he was fighting for the Republic's very survival was the reason his Vapaad worked so well against Sidious in their fight. Vapaad has NEVER worked that well against anybody else, but as soon as Windu was put into those particular circumstances, it worked. Honestly, I'm about done with this. I've proven my point time and again in this debate, I've provided sources and quotes to prove my point. You haven't provided so much as rational argument, your comments have been devoid of fact, highly opinionated, and totally unsubstantiated throughout the entirety of this "debate." Anybody with two eyes and brain can see how poor and sorry a debater you are, it's really very pathetic that you're this bad at it.

Originally posted by darthbane77
and that Sidious is superior to Yoda, the quotes confirm it;


No.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No. Yes.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Yes.


https://jedi-bibliothek.de/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/9781368003063-final-2.jpg

Yoda:

"After Palpatine fought him to a standstill Yoda retreated into exile."

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The boards have gone a bit Vader cuckoo recently

Corrected.

But yes, to be sure, I also think, that Sidious is a bit overated. He would take 10/10 against either Windu or Dooku in single combat, but he wont beat them both at once. I'm even wondering, if Windu really needs to amp himself on Palpatine.

Duo takes this.

Originally posted by McP
Corrected.




Dude it's not the boards that have suddenly increased their wank over Vader for no apparent reason. It's the creators of the new Canon that have done that, and made it clear that's intentional.


On the boards there's actually still quite a few people lowballing Vader, and many more giving him less credit than he deserves.


Originally posted by McP


But yes, to be sure, I also think, that Sidious is a bit overated. He would take 10/10 against either Windu or Dooku in single combat, but he wont beat them both at once. I'm even wondering, if Windu really needs to amp himself on Palpatine.

Duo takes this.

Not sure how you can say 10/10 against Windu, when Windu has already taken 1/1. But I do think Palpatine would take the large majority against Windu, 10/10 against Dooku, but lose against both.

If the creators went cuckoo for Vader wouldn't he handily best Kanan and Ezra. He didn't. He didn't even handily beat Tano. It's a myth Vader's position improved supported by vague statements not the evidence itself. The evidence is what matters not some ign interview.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dude it's not the boards that have suddenly increased their wank over Vader for no apparent reason. It's the creators of the new Canon that have done that, and made it clear that's intentional.
Not at all. They gave him some hype, but screwed his showings anyway. He was in fact Force pushed by Ezra and Kanan. He could be distracted, but being Force pushed by a fighters of Kanan's and Ezra's caliber.. it's just shame. Ahsoka wasn't impressive at all in her las episode, and yet, she gave him a really good fight.
Dooku was in very similar situation, when he was distract by Pykes, and he was able to effortlessly evade Anakin and Obi-Wan's combined Force push.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not sure how you can say 10/10 against Windu, when Windu has already taken 1/1. But I do think Palpatine would take the large majority against Windu, 10/10 against Dooku, but lose against both.
I meant all-out. It's confirmed by Lucas, that Palpatine threw lightning part of battle. And Mace was struggling hard at the end.
And even Mace's superior in every category, Yoda, couldn't beat Sidious in all-out.

Originally posted by McP
Not at all. They gave him some hype, but screwed his showings anyway. He was in fact Force pushed by Ezra and Kanan. He could be distracted, but being Force pushed by a fighters of Kanan's and Ezra's caliber.. it's just shame. Ahsoka wasn't impressive at all in her las episode, and yet, she gave him a really good fight.
Dooku was in very similar situation, when he was distract by Pykes, and he was able to effortlessly evade Anakin and Obi-Wan's combined Force push.



Oh dude come on. So what if he was Force pushed while distracted. The push added to the chicken walker falling on him still did absolutely nothing, and Kanan/Ezra still ran for their lives admitting they can't even compete with this guy.

Vader also could have EASILY killed Kanan when he grabbed hold of him but just threw him aside instead, proving he just wasn't taking the fight very seriously. So very different to Dooku facing great elite Jedi such as Anakin and Obi-Wan.

The hypes real. Crushing AT-AT's is the "biggest" TK feat we've seen in Canon. He even redirected torpedoes shot at him from X-Wings with his TK, and Crushed X-Wings with boulders. Just totally Totally Insane stuff.

Maul's already admitted inferiority to him. The creators have confirmed Maul would die if he faced Vader. Filoni's confirmed that's the way Lucas wanted it because he never wanted Vader lowballed in any way.

Ahsoka was on par with Maul and Vader soundly defeated her.


Originally posted by McP

I meant all-out. It's confirmed by Lucas, that Palpatine threw lightning part of battle. And Mace was struggling hard at the end.
And even Mace's superior in every category, Yoda, couldn't beat Sidious in all-out.


Yeah but Mace could have already killed Palpatine before the Lightning started.

Yoda and Mace's fight were both very different. Yoda faced the full extent of Palpatine's powers in that senate room.

Team. (assuming this is ROTS Sidious)

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The hypes real. Crushing AT-AT's is the "biggest" TK feat we've seen in Canon. He even redirected torpedoes shot at him from X-Wings with his TK, and Crushed X-Wings with boulders. Just totally Totally Insane stuff.
Not at all. In Legends (which were a canon in the past) we also could see some awesome things, like Mace's TK in CW > everything that Sidious ever done with TK.
There are some exaggerated feats, depends of the source. Sometimes it's hard to judge, some sources seems to be really believable. But that might be only an ilusion. Savage's feats from TCWS3 are clearly wrong, yet they are still a canon. There are statements, that he became even stronger... and you know what? If not his duels with Kenobi and Maul, if we could only see him facing Sidious, with another statements like "he became more powerful", "he's stronger and stronger(...)" etc, we should could assume, that he would stomp Obi-Wan or Anakin... or he would be able to kill Dooku.
But that's all wrong.

Vader, to prove that those statements are rightful, needs to prove them in battles. He has statements, that nearly puts him in the same league with Sidious. But his TK is nowhere near of that of Sidious. Sidious or Yoda could stomp people of Maul's, Opress', Ventress, Kenobi's level. Vader couldn't. If he could, he wouldn't leave Malachor looking like a barely walking pathetic "half-droid half-man".

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh dude come on. So what if he was Force pushed while distracted. The push added to the chicken walker falling on him still did absolutely nothing, and Kanan/Ezra still ran for their lives admitting they can't even compete with this guy.
Yeah, he was distracted, because his perception is below average. He might be extremely powerful, but he's not a good fighter at all.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Filoni's confirmed that's the way Lucas wanted it because he never wanted Vader lowballed in any way.
Lol. That seem just to be a lie. Lucas is the one, that is fully responsible for lowballing Vader. Lucas himself stated, that Ben is just an old man, Vader is a crippled half-droid half-man, and Luke is some inexperienced guy who is learning from those people.
Maul, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan's era was stated to be prime era of warriors. Let alone AOTC and ROTS. It's also a Lucas who is responsible for SW timeline. Because of Lucas Ben, who looks like eighty years old, is in fact about sixty? And Qui-Gon is sixty as well? Lucas could say: they fought in a close quarters, they had no space for acrobatics, or their techniques were far more advanced and they only looked that bad. He could say, that's because of limitations, they could not show their fights properly. Instead of that, he said what he said, and lowballed them more then I could ever have.
And do not forget, that in Legends, Luke could contend with Vader. Perhaps he couln't be able to win, if Vader would really want to kill him, perhaps he wasn't ready. But he could compete. A guy, who - like Filoni said - is below Jedi Council from PT. Yeah, Filoni is really a reliable source.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maul's already admitted inferiority to him.
He was at that point. In my opinion he past his prime, but we'll see soon.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah but Mace could have already killed Palpatine before the Lightning started.
Yeah, except that Sidious already show us, that he's able to use his lightning to disarm people... superior to Mace. And he still had his superior TK. He wasn't like Dooku, you know, handless...

You shouldn't say anything about wanking Sidious. If Vader is as powerful as you think he is, then Sidious is as powerful as his wankers think he is. He stomped B-team with a Mace presence. He stomped Savage and Maul, while Vader couln't even best Ahsoka (in fact, he only overhelmed her) and Ben. Vader's other showings are irrelevant. He has no good showings against other Force users. He could have. They could make OM Maul as really powerful, like Dooku or even more. And then Vader would best him or killed him. But for now Maul looks to be pathetic. Killing him wont be a great showing for Vader.
They can also prove, that Ben is prime version of Kenobi. But, I guess, they wont.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ Maul lost to a padawan. Maul had him beaten but Tano got involved. He was overconfident and fell off a cliff. Nothing to be overly dramatic about.

MCP caved D. Thor's ******* in.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul had him beaten but Tano got involved. He was overconfident and fell off a cliff. Nothing to be overly dramatic about.

It's interesting that you make excuses for Maul, but not for anyone else.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's interesting that you make excuses for Maul, but not for anyone else. I do the same for all. I can't stand Windu but don't excuse Palpatine's loss. Windu is one of the most boring Jedi or Sith IMO yet I give him the due he deserves. I am the same with all Star Wars characters.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I do the same for all. I can't stand Windu but don't excuse Palpatine's loss. Windu is one of the most boring Jedi or Sith IMO yet I give him the due he deserves. I am the same with all Star Wars characters.

So why is Maul's getting blindsided by Obi Wan in TPM when he was literally facing him with the high ground OK, but Palpatine being blindsided from behind by Vader while being distracted torturing someone is not?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So why is Maul's getting blindsided by Obi Wan in TPM when he was literally facing him with the high ground OK, but Palpatine being blindsided from behind by Vader while being distracted torturing someone is not? Well they both were overconfident so that's exactly the same. Both were guilty of this. The difference is Maul survived and Palpatine thus far hasn't (if Disney decides to change this). Doubtful but you never know. Most hold Palpatine to a higher standard since he's more powerful, wiser, etc. than Maul.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The difference is Maul survived and Palpatine thus far hasn't

What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about who would win in a fight; that Maul managed to survive by some fluke isn't relevant to these vs. debates.

Likewise, had Maul fallen into the Death Star II's reactor shaft, he certainly would not have lived, particularly given that the station blows up a few minutes after.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about who would win in a fight; that Maul managed to survive by some fluke isn't relevant to these vs. debates.

Likewise, had Maul fallen into the Death Star II's reactor shaft, he certainly would not have lived, particularly given that the station blows up a few minutes after. Well since I view both as the same errors to varying degrees whats the issue ?

Quanchi treats all SW characters the same?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Quanchi treats all SW characters the same? I do and I also just proved you don't have me on ignore, padawan.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
And leaving Malachor crippled? What? He was caught at the centre of a Temple destroying blast. That's actually a better durability feat than anything we've seen from Sidious, Yoda, Mace or Dooku.
I know, that what I will write now is.. just my prediction. But as I know Filoni, Ahsoka is still alive, well and safe. Vader left Temple barely alive, while she seemed to be untouched (it was her, for sure!). We have no idea what happend there.
But yeah, due to his armor and most of him being a cyborg parts, his durability seems to be superior. But on the other hand, he's vulnerable for lightning for exaple. Not to mention, that Maul can compete with him in terms of durability.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You mean when he disarmed Yoda? Totally different circumstances. Firstly he couldn't just disarm Yoda any time he wanted. Second when he first shot Windu, Windu was forced back. Yoda was on the edge of a Senate Pod, so he couldn't fall back, and just decided to let his Saber go instead and catch the Lightning in his hands.
Yeah, I know. I just said, that he could use his Force powers to stop Windu's blade.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
His S3 feats are not wrong, they are Canon.
I'm well aware, that they are canon. But they are wrong... and stupid. And your argument fails here. Obi-Wan fought him twice in S3, with Anakin's back up. And couldn't find any advantage over him. He fought him twice in S4. He knew what he's dealing with. He was distracted by Maul's presence, but Savage's blows were still too much to meet them head to head. Unlike in S5, when even Adi did better for a while (at least she was able to parry his blows without being pushed back a few steps with every blow). And suddenly, in E5, Kenobi was able to deal with both Bros at once and bested Savage. We know that's it's still a canon, we are forced to explain it somehow. But it shouldn't be that way. Filoni is like a cancer. He should be removed as soon as possible.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So you're argument now is that Filoni is a liar? Really?
Yes. But not only, he's idiot, jerk, cancer as well. Totaly outclassed by true Heroes of EU like Luceno or Ostrander.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
How is his TK no where near that of Sidious or Yoda level when he has the biggest TK lifting feats in Canon?
Lol. Size no matters. Dooku has a really nice feat from TCW, with that pillars. If we compere it to Yoda's feat from AOTC, Dooku should be league above Yoda. But he's not. Yoda or Sidious could not have a chance to show their full power of TK properly, but they already did during battles.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Because Filoni is only concerned with Canon. You're mixing Legends with Canon, and you're also only taking half of what Filoni said.

Filoni said Luke never stood a chance against Vader.
I meant, In Lucas' mind, Luke could at least compete. In Filoni he can't. It's not Lucas idea, it's Filoni's. I just wanted to note a differences in Lucas and Filoni's visions.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He was just being sloppy.
He wasn't sloppy. He would be, if he would try to attack Kenobi and he would miss. Or smth like that. He did nothing, it wasn't sloppy, it was stupid.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lucas is also on record as stating Vader is 80% of Palpatine in power. Whereas in the new Canon they seem to be reducing that gap even further and going more along the lines of a 90%.
Wasn't that statement about ROTS suited-Vader? If yes, then Lucas was talking about his potential probably. But anyway, 80% is still greeat, but well below. And that's just about overall power. Vader also lacks speed and agility at that point. And not, he's not even close to be 90%. If he would be, Ezra and Kanan would be a prisoners, Ahsoka would be stomped and dead.

Originally posted by darthbane77
That's the thing, Yoda wasn't capable of winning of defeating Sidious; BECAUSE Sidious is more powerful than him and is more powerful than Windu by extension; as proved by the now many quotes I have provided you with. Aside from the "avatar of light" part, there's no hyperbole in any of the quotes I just provided; and even that bit of hyperbole is just as as effective as Sidious or Vitiate's "dark side incanrate" quotes. Your desperation is palpable now. Concede before I embarrass you further.

This is completely and blatantly false, and ignores the source material you keep on trying to spew. Lucas DIRECTLY states in his script, that the emperor appears doomed. Which corroborates what we see on film. Yoda at first seems like he's getting overwhelmed, he then buckles down with the expression of "You F'd now", and proceeds to turn the tide. You can see the expression of OH shit on his face. Ignoring this, or not knowing this, is ignoring the source material.

Further proof your statement is blatantly false. Yoda DISARMED Sids in direct combat. He clearly demonstrated he was better in sabers. Shoot, Sids even tried to run once Yoda was ready to go. He knew better. So somebody who can disarm another of their main killing weapon and what they are trained never to lose... somehow doesn't have a chance to win? Joke much? Maybe you should take your own advice and analyze the source material.

Kt only debates based off his opinion. Shameful.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is completely and blatantly false, and ignores the source material you keep on trying to spew. Lucas DIRECTLY states in his script, that the emperor appears doomed. Which corroborates what we see on film. Yoda at first seems like he's getting overwhelmed, he then buckles down with the expression of "You F'd now", and proceeds to turn the tide. You can see the expression of OH shit on his face. Ignoring this, or not knowing this, is ignoring the source material.

Further proof your statement is blatantly false. Yoda DISARMED Sids in direct combat. He clearly demonstrated he was better in sabers. Shoot, Sids even tried to run once Yoda was ready to go. He knew better. So somebody who can disarm another of their main killing weapon and what they are trained never to lose... somehow doesn't have a chance to win? Joke much? Maybe you should take your own advice and analyze the source material.
When did he disarm Sidious? It's not shown in the movie. I agree though that Yoda seemed like he was getting overwhelmed by the lightning at first but then turned it back towards Sidious.

Team.

Originally posted by Rebel95
When did he disarm Sidious? It's not shown in the movie. I agree though that Yoda seemed like he was getting overwhelmed by the lightning at first but then turned it back towards Sidious.

In the movie script. It was off-screen tho, but we've seen that after the cut Sidious doesn't have his lightsaber anymore.

That is exactly correct. The movie doesn't contradict the scrip. He has a weapon and then he doesn't. He was disarmed as the script notes.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That is exactly correct. The movie doesn't contradict the scrip. He has a weapon and then he doesn't. He was disarmed as the script notes. Yoda still failed despite Sidious not even having a Lightsaber for a good portion of their fight. Embarrassing. Yoda sucked.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yoda still failed despite Sidious not even having a Lightsaber for a good portion of their fight. Embarrassing. Yoda sucked. Yoda was good.