Which of them Luke can ragdoll?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Ursumeles
* Darth Caedus
* Arcann
* Darth Jadus
* Darth Vader
* Darth Krayt
* Darth Plagueis
* Novel Vitate
* SoR Revan
* RotS Yoda
* Exar Kun
* Marka Ragnos
* Sirak

UCanShootMyNova
None. smile

Ursumeles
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
None. smile
1. LMFAO
2. He already ragdolled Caedus
3. LMFAO

JKBart
* Darth Caedus - given good timing and opportunity, he can
* Arcann - he can't
* Darth Jadus - he can't
* Darth Vader - given good timing and opportunity, he can
* Darth Krayt - he can't
* Darth Plagueis - he can't
* Novel Vitate - Vitiate is superior to Luke, lol
* SoR Revan - he can't dream of it
* RotS Yoda - he can't dream of it
* Exar Kun - he can't
* Marka Ragnos - he can
* Sirak - he can without a gesture

The Ellimist
Using a rather strict definition of ragdoll, all but Caedus, Krayt, Plagueis, Vitiate, and Yoda.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by JKBart
* Darth Caedus - given good timing and opportunity, he can
* Arcann - he can't
* Novel Vitate - Vitiate is superior to Luke, lol

An hero coming soon?

Ursumeles

MythLord
Bar Plagy and Yoda... all of them. smile

Ursumeles
thumb up

Azronger
All of them. Except maybe Yoda, and that's a maybe.

darthbane77
Originally posted by JKBart
* Darth Caedus - given good timing and opportunity, he can
* Arcann - he can't
* Darth Jadus - he can't
* Darth Vader - given good timing and opportunity, he can
* Darth Krayt - he can't
* Darth Plagueis - he can't
* Novel Vitate - Vitiate is superior to Luke, lol
* SoR Revan - he can't dream of it
* RotS Yoda - he can't dream of it
* Exar Kun - he can't
* Marka Ragnos - he can
* Sirak - he can without a gesture Pretty much this yeah.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by darthbane77
Pretty much this yeah.
Arcann/Jadus > Caedus/Vader; and Novel Vitate > Luke!?

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Arcann/Jadus > Caedus/Vader; and Novel Vitate > Luke!? That's not even remotely I said lol, stop being an moron; I know you aren't one.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by darthbane77
That's not even remotely I said lol, stop being an moron; I know you aren't one.
You said you agree with Luke not being able to ragdoll Jadsus and Arcann, but being able to ragdoll Vader and Caedus; and that NoVitate > Luke, so...

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
You said you agree with Luke not being able to ragdoll Jadsus and Arcann, but being able to ragdoll Vader and Caedus; and that NoVitate > Luke, so... No, I agreed with Luke not bein able to ragdoll most of them as the comment says. That doesn't mean I see them as superior to Luke, it just means they're powerful enough that Luke won;t be able to ragdoll them.

MythLord
He never said it means you think they are superior to Luke. He's saying you said Luke can ragdoll Vader and Caedus, but not Jadus and Arcann, so you think Arcann beats Caedus and Jadus beats Vader.

Tondemonai
Sirak ragdolls the whole list at the same time smile

DarthDuelist9
Luke ragdolling Caedus is circumstancial, the latter reflects later on that Luke took him by suprise and that it would never happen again which, looking at their fights, seems very plausible.

Ursumeles
Maybe, with Caedus growing every day in power.

darthbane77
Originally posted by MythLord
He never said it means you think they are superior to Luke. He's saying you said Luke can ragdoll Vader and Caedus, but not Jadus and Arcann, so you think Arcann beats Caedus and Jadus beats Vader. Ah, I misunderstood. My original comment was "pretty much this", not "exactly this". There are a couple things I disagree on it with, but it's good for the most part. @Urs, allow me to edit it so you see my full opinion.

* Darth Caedus - given good timing and opportunity, he can
* Arcann - He can, given enough time.
* Darth Jadus - he can, given enough time.
* Darth Vader - given good timing and opportunity, he can
* Darth Krayt - he can't
* Darth Plagueis - he can given time.
* Novel Vitate - He can't even dream of it (Vitiate is too close to Luke)
* SoR Revan - he can't dream of it
* RotS Yoda - he can't dream of it
* Exar Kun - he can't
* Marka Ragnos - he can
* Sirak - he can without a gesture

So I had to alter a couple of them, but the list remains mostly the same.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Luke ragdolling Caedus is circumstancial, the latter reflects later on that Luke took him by suprise and that it would never happen again which, looking at their fights, seems very plausible.

Luke has stomped Caedus with the Force twice. He did so once when Caedus didn't expect it - not that t's an excuse as he couldn't break out nonetheless, and has done so a second time while Jacen was actively trying to block him, as a result Luke broke one of Caedus' collar bones.



I will say it again, Caedus has been debunked. It can only go down hill from here.

Ursumeles
@DB77 Nah, imho it is a big difference.
I am interested why you have Krayt/NoVitate/Exar > Plagueis.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
@DB77 Nah, imho it is a big difference.
I am interested why you have Krayt/NoVitate/Exar > Plagueis. Because they are > Plagueis? Except maybe Kun, I'm kind of undecided on where I have Kun.

Ursumeles

darthbane77

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Luke has stomped Caedus with the Force twice. He did so once when Caedus didn't expect it - not that t's an excuse as he couldn't break out nonetheless, and has done so a second time while Jacen was actively trying to block him, as a result Luke broke one of Caedus' collar bones.



I will say it again, Caedus has been debunked. It can only go down hill from here.

The fact that Caedus didn't expect it is of course important, it's far more difficult to break out of a grip then to block it when it hasn't caused any effect. It's noted afterwards that he was caught off gaurd and that it was an crucial factor.

That's not ragdolling, just breaking through Caedus's defenses which isn't anything special or new.

I agree that he isn't Palpatine level or aything close as he was previously placed but nobody has properly defended him until this point, something which is definitely my intention.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
The fact that Caedus didn't expect it is of course important, it's far more difficult to break out of a grip then to block it when it hasn't caused any effect.

Proof that it's harder? For one, It's certainly possible to break out of a grip and it's something that happens numerous times in the mythos. People have done it whilst being asphyxiated in a Force choke-hold - loosing oxygen is going to make it harder to draw upon the Force, but Caedus doesn't have that excuse. He was pinned, couldn't move an inch if he tried. You note his unexpectance as something important, but it's also important to note how Luke didn't even gesture, nor did he exert any effort to keep his nephew strapped to his seat and could apparently do so for a protracted time period. Let's compare that to Maul choking Obi Wan for example. Maul obviously needed to exert a fair amount of effort to keep Kenobi in a Force grip, and he wasn't able to hold him there when distractions came about.



Which is immediately rectified by Luke's lack of exertion in the same sentence.






It proves that Caedus is unable to block any intrusion of the Force that Luke might administer, even when the former is expecting such an attack. And it goes hand in hand with the fact that Caedus can not escape. If his defensive Force barriers can be overcame, what else is he going to block the attack with? His physical strength? No, I'm sorry, but there's little excuse here. Luke can use the Force to dominate Caedus at any point, he can use the Force to manipulate Caedus' anatomy to any extent and can use the Force to explore any orifice belonging to his nephew at his own desire.



Right on both accounts. Good luck.

Ziggystardust
Just to point out, being made helpless against Luke's TK isn't the end of the world. But it happen. Twice.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Just to point out, being made helpless against Luke's TK isn't the end of the world. But it happen. Twice.
Wow, I actually I agree with you. Honestly, Luke mind fugging him, and amping Jaina ridiculous is probably more impressive, tho.

The Ellimist
Ziggy's not exactly the brightest tool in the shed, but he did a good job here.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ziggy's not exactly the brightest tool in the shed, but he did a good job here.


Ziggy is bright. He's just usually prejudice against certain SW characters, certain races, religions and other groups.

DarthDuelist9
@Ziggy: I'll respond tomorrow since I'm on my phone now stick out tongue

Nephthys
Ziggy is on point here. In addition to those displays of telekinetic dominance its good to also remember how Luke was easily able to fool Jacen with illusions, hide his presence from him completely and misdirect his senses with impunity.

Ursumeles
Yes thumb up
All of this feats prove his superior to all other non-entities/non-oneness Force User in SW, including Valkorion smile

Nephthys
Ha. Only were one to believe that such feats would be beyond the likes of Valkorion or others.

Ursumeles
I maybe agree with other(Sidious, Nyax, UnuThul...) but not Valkorion smile

Geistalt
Sirak, Jadus, and maybe Arcann, Kun, Krayt, and Marka Ragnos.

GM Yoda
Originally posted by JKBart
* Darth Caedus - given good timing and opportunity, he can
* Arcann - he can't
* Darth Jadus - he can't
* Darth Vader - given good timing and opportunity, he can
* Darth Krayt - he can't
* Darth Plagueis - he can't
* Novel Vitate - Vitiate is superior to Luke, lol
* SoR Revan - he can't dream of it
* RotS Yoda - he can't dream of it
* Exar Kun - he can't
* Marka Ragnos - he can
* Sirak - he can without a gesture

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Proof that it's harder? For one, It's certainly possible to break out of a grip and it's something that happens numerous times in the mythos. People have done it whilst being asphyxiated in a Force choke-hold - loosing oxygen is going to make it harder to draw upon the Force, but Caedus doesn't have that excuse. He was pinned, couldn't move an inch if he tried. You note his unexpectance as something important, but it's also important to note how Luke didn't even gesture, nor did he exert any effort to keep his nephew strapped to his seat and could apparently do so for a protracted time period. Let's compare that to Maul choking Obi Wan for example. Maul obviously needed to exert a fair amount of effort to keep Kenobi in a Force grip, and he wasn't able to hold him there when distractions came about.

Let me give you an example to clarify my view on it, you have two fighters (let's name them A & B) who are roughly equals in terms of strength. Now, during a certain situation fighter B takes down fighter A (e.g. pins him to the ground) because fighter A was distracted or something like that, then it would be much more difficult for fighter A, despite his rivalling fighter B in strength, to break free of that grip compared to when they would just meet toe-to-toe in the beginning. You can also see it as the fact that Caedus/Jacen has to "overcome" this extra disadvantage in order to be on a fair ground compared to Luke.



Not entirely, you can't really quantify Luke's amount of effort compared to Caedus's disadvantageous situation.



There are obviously different grades of "domination", it's not because character A breaks through the defenses of character B that he can dominate him. Caedus's defenses could very well have compensated for part of Luke's power, e.g. instead of knocking him unconsciousness he's only broken something. It's not stated directly in the text but other examples have been presented to us in other novels, e.g. Darth Zannah Force Pushing Darth Bane in the prison in DoE, Bane's defenses countered part of Zannah's power but he was still thrown back by it (meaning that his defenses were broken).



Thanks

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9

Let me give you an example to clarify my view on it, you have two fighters (let's name them A & B) who are roughly equals in terms of strength. Now, during a certain situation fighter B takes down fighter A (e.g. pins him to the ground) because fighter A was distracted or something like that, then it would be much more difficult for fighter A, despite his rivalling fighter B in strength, to break free of that grip compared to when they would just meet toe-to-toe in the beginning. You can also see it as the fact that Caedus/Jacen has to "overcome" this extra disadvantage in order to be on a fair ground compared to Luke.

I've highlighted the word that's missing from this hypothesis. What you have given me is a theory, a speculative guess into the varying degrees at which Force users can afflict one another. What you have not provided is an example. Last time I checked 'The Force According to DarthDuelist9' wasn't in any of the Expanded Universe Collections. Is there some other interaction in the mythos that validates your claim?



Why can't we? Do you not see the double standard here? Why should we accept that freeing oneself from the invisible fingers of a Force grip is any harder than preventing one, especially in this case where Luke had pinned Caedus and kept him without exerting anything remotely resembling effort and could keep him motionless save for his ability to speak? The ease in which Luke was humiliating his nephew, can not, and should not be ignored. If there was some sort of struggle, then you might have a point, but there wasn't. Let's have a look at that excerpt again.



The disparity in their command of the Force is apparent. It's apparent both times when Luke dominates his nephew, and implied with the vast discrepancies in their feats - Luke reconstructing and destroying Vader's mountain sized fortress, while Jacen is just about rolling forty meter ships with the Force. It must be said, that most cases of ragdolling happen when the victim isn't expecting it, and usually the perpetrator is either met with an invisible wall, or if their target is strong enough, they escape. The difference between Jaina and Caedus is pretty huge, but even when she is sent flying through the air at her brother's command, she was still able to regain some control over herself.



Jacen wasn't able to do that against Luke. Not in any measure of the sense :





Yes it absolutely does mean you can dominate them. If I overpower the one layer of defence that's protecting you against telekinsis, then what do you have left to stop me constricting your windpipe, or puppeteering your limbs, or simply keeping you in the same spot for several minutes? Is it your physical strength that stops me from controlling your arms and legs like a Shakespearian marionette? Are you going to start manipulating the air currents around your body in an unsteady manner to manipulate your physical being into something resembling conscious movement?



It's not even inferred. I'm not going to give any awards to Caedus because he didn't spontaneously explode as soon as Luke moved him. Regardless, the point here is that you need to provide evidence for your claims. No one is going to accept an unsubstantiated hypothesis when it's the least likely one - Occams Razor. The below example does at least imply than Bane could protect himself in some manner against Zannah, the same can not be said for Caedus.



Completely incomparable example. First of all, the action between Bane and Zannah is happening in a direct confrontation, whereas Luke was on an entirely different ship when rummaging through the drives of Caedus' vessel, he tried to block Luke with the Force Luke's power redoubled. What Zannah unleashed on Bane, wasn't a Force grip or movement, but rather a Force Wave. The force push is variation of telekinesis, which in turn uses the Force to move objects. Or, as The Essential Guide through the Force describes it:



A Force Wave is far less focused and used to take out or incapacitate several targets as well as objects, and unlike a Force grip which directly affects the desired object or person, a Force Wave is a pressurised air missile that manipulates and compresses air particles to affect a very wide area - ie Bane collapsing a temple, Mace Windu scattering battledroids or this :

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4985585-force+defense+anakin+obi-wan.gif

Which is why what Bane experienced was described as a wall of Force energy coming towards him. What Bane's defence could be analogised with, in affect, is comparable to wearing a protective bomb suit. The suit produced by the Force will protect the wearer from the impact of an explosion, but the momentum produced will still send him backwards. Instead, we have examples of people rooting themselves to the ground in order to become immovable objects - Luke vs Unuthul, Bane does nothing to that effect.

DarthDuelist9
You raise a lot of good points, some I agree with and some I'm undecided about but when I'll have re-read LotF, I'll try to answer you.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.