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Just wondering what people thought of this. Include TSLRCM to make it fairer.

Here's my two cents:

Story: KotOR

Characters: KotOR II

Themes: KotOR II

Sandbox: KotOR

Music: Draw

Atmosphere: KotOR II

Replayability: KotOR II (pretty much just down to the diversity of companion influence and the bigger differences between LS and DS throughout the game)

Legacy: KotOR

Legacy goes to KotOR. Characters and music is a draw. Everything else to KotOR 2 imo.

Yeah, I can agree with that, Nova.

I agree with Nova.

@Azronger - How does the story go to KotOR II? I mean, they tried hard to make a unique story, not to mention that there are some gems in the storyline, and I appreciate both of those things, but the story was founded on a giant plot hole, and there's other plot holes as well.

I don't know how KotOR II isn't flat-out better in terms of characters, though. Most of KotOR I's companions lacked the depth of the companions in KotOR II, who also had better chemistry with each other. It also helps when you have villains with a weakness for you (Sion) and villains with a greater sense of purpose and original goals (Traya) as opposed to cartoonishly routine Sith like Malak.

I am interested in a good defense for the other game in both of those cases, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer @Azronger - How does the story go to KotOR II? I mean, they tried hard to make a unique story, not to mention that there are some gems in the storyline, and I appreciate both of those things, but the story was founded on a giant plot hole, and there's other plot holes as well.

KotOR 1 was the generic save the world crap that we've seen a thousand times. I mean, it was a well-done save the world story, but you get what a mean.

Tbh, I didn't even notice any plot holes in KotOR 2 even without TSLRCM. I focused on the better aspects the whole time, and the good outweighed the bad by a longshot, IMO.



Ah, I thought it was only companions. Well, in that case, I agree that KotOR 2 gets the nod over the first one. If only for its villains.



I find debates like this kinda pointless, since they're about subjective opinions.

No, I mentioned the companions as being better in KotOR II as well. The companions do count - all characters do.

Also, the plot hole I was talking about was the fact that the Exile didn't know how she was cut off from the Force. She lost it on Malachor V, yet she somehow believed Kreia when the latter suggested that the Council severed her from her powers, even though she had the entire trip from Malachor V to Coruscant without the Force.

There's another plot hole on Korriban where she immediately recognizes Bastila in the Malak vision. Despite that, she doesn't know who Bastila is in T3's hologram.

Also, the Force Bond aspect of the plot was never properly tied up, even in TSLRCM. There's still no in-game explicit explanation for why you don't die when Kreia does, which forces a host of fan-made explanations.

Ehh, I just don't really care. As I said, the good outweighed the bad, in my opinion.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, the Force Bond aspect of the plot was never properly tied up, even in TSLRCM. There's still no in-game explicit explanation for why you don't die when Kreia does, which forces a host of fan-made explanations.

I thought the droid planet mod explained that force bonds can be broken if one of the two people in the bond turned to the DS, so I thought Kreia's act of turning into Darth Traya broke the bond between them. That does leave another plothole though of how Traya could threaten the Exile if the Exile already knew this.

Story: KotOR II

Characters: KotOR II

Themes: KotOR II

Sandbox: Don't really know about this.

Music: Draw

Atmosphere: KotOR II

Replayability: KotOR II

Legacy: KotOR

I also felt the Force Wound thing, was the dumbest thing ever tbh..

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, I mentioned the companions as being better in KotOR II as well. The companions do count - all characters do.

Also, the plot hole I was talking about was the fact that the Exile didn't know how she was cut off from the Force. She lost it on Malachor V, yet she somehow believed Kreia when the latter suggested that the Council severed her from her powers, even though she had the entire trip from Malachor V to Coruscant without the Force.

It's never actually established that the Exile believes the explanation Kreia offers. What prompts the search for the last Jedi is the recording of the Exile's trial. The Exile sees the Council discussing her condition, so she becomes aware of the fact that they know something happened to her.

Beyond that, it's up to how you RP the character. The Exile can seek the Jedi so that they can heal her(or so she believes), or for help against the Sith, or for revenge, or not search for them at all(i.e: you go to Nar Shaddaa for information on the bounty, or to Dantooine for crystals/relics).

But even if the Exile did believe her, you can chalk it up to a combination of a decade passing, emotional trauma, Kreia's skill as a manipulator and the recording, which indicates the Council is aware something was wrong with her and chose to keep her in the dark.

There's also the issue that the Exile is subconsciously aware that Kreia is playing her, as evidenced by her visions in Ludo Kreesh's tomb and her final conversation with Kreia(in the tomb, not the game).

All in all, I wouldn't call it a plot hole. Just the self-deception that all people engage in, especially in complex/tragic situations. It's easy to see someone else's flaws, not so easy to see your own.

KotOR in all.

^^^
Nice explanation.

Edit: To unbowed, as I didn't want to quote his entire post and clog the thread.

No one said anyone had to explain anything. Either way, aside from characters(and even that's questionable), everything else goes to KotOR. I hate Obsidian and Avellone's edgelord writing.

Story: KotOR II
Characters: KotOR II
Themes: KotOR II
Sandbox: KotOR
Music: Draw
Atmosphere: KotOR II
Replayability: either
Legacy: KotOR

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I hate Obsidian and Avellone's edgelord writing.
You're an ******* then.

HK-47 is the best character in all the SW Games.

To be honest, I think Carth is ****ing awesome though.

Mission too.

Originally posted by Solar Power
I thought the droid planet mod explained that force bonds can be broken if one of the two people in the bond turned to the DS, so I thought Kreia's act of turning into Darth Traya broke the bond between them. That does leave another plothole though of how Traya could threaten the Exile if the Exile already knew this.

M4-78 was scrapped early and most of it is fan-made.

Anyway, the Bond is clearly still in effect in the DS version, since in the Enclave scene, Kreia stabs herself with a lightsaber and you feel the pain, not to mention that she can drain your strength through that Bond.

At the end of that scene, Kreia goes on to say that their Bond remains. There is a version of it where Kreia claims she cut the Bond, but that's only in the game files, not the game, I believe.

Originally posted by Unbowed
It's never actually established that the Exile believes the explanation Kreia offers. What prompts the search for the last Jedi is the recording of the Exile's trial. The Exile sees the Council discussing her condition, so she becomes aware of the fact that they know something happened to her.

The Exile asks each of the Masters why you were cut off from the Force and why she were exiled, so it would seem that you do believe her.



That doesn't matter. The fact that the Exile believes the Council cut her off from the Force is part of the motivation for the whole questioning/revenge process.



There's no reason for you to forget what caused you to lose your connection to the Force. A decade passing makes no difference. People remember the loss of limbs for life, let alone the loss of an entire sense (and the Force is more than that). Emotional trauma plays into my point - you're not going to forget it. The Exile didn't see the recording until after Telos IV, whereas she fell for Kreia's claims right after Peragus.

As for Kreia's manipulations, that's part of my point. The Exile shouldn't have any doubts about the nature of her loss.



Not necessarily. You can say "you've been manipulating me all along!" to the vision, and right after returning to the Ebon Hawk, it's back to normal with Kreia. Presumably, the Exile thought that it was just a vision and not much more. Especially seeing as the Exile sees a corrupted version of themselves in the final room, which lends credence to the notion (or at least, the Exile's possible belief) that the visions would be naturally corrupted and dark-sided in nature. There's just not enough of a follow-up to the vision to suggest that she really suspected Kreia of any of her shenanigans. Heck, Sion outright warns her about Kreia, yet she still seems to refuse to believe that.

Not to mention that numerous in-game dialogue, as well as supplementary material, supports the notion that the Exile had no idea who Kreia was or that she was playing her.



I'm not convinced of that. Something as shocking as being cut off from the Force, and to an unprecedented extent as well, shouldn't be difficult to remember at all.

Perhaps you can argue that it was down to Kreia's manipulation, as opposed to a plot hole, but if so, that's weak writing all the same. Unless you think Traya was using TP of some sort to influence the Exile's mind at the same time, but then you're reaching into the grounds of speculation. Which I suppose is acceptable when answering something like this, where we're basically drawing on our headcanons anyway.