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So let's look at this from the different approaches that have been taken.

Minimalist Approach: Downplay all of Bane's feats and abilities to their lowest possible point. Discount any of his nexus feats. Discount any growth that might have occurred over decades of time.

Going by this approach what is the extent of Bane's ability?

He was capable as of RoT of breaking Zannah's neck with TK.

Zannah as a child shielded herself from a fire storm caused by Bane and the Brotherhood's lightning ritual.

Given the extent of the fire I imagine the feat is similar to Anakin Solo's. While I'm sure this was an innate use of her power I think we can be fairly sure that as of RoT with over a decade of training she would be able to replicate and exceed such a feat as it's made clear in several sources Force ability increases the more you test the limits of what you're capable of.

So essentially Bane can overpower someone who's approximately capable of this.

"Anakin reached up and pulled, creating a tube that sucked higher air straight down on him and the Yuuzhan Vong. His breathing eased immediately.

The fire liked it, too. The underbrush exploded like a bomb. Anakin felt the heat briefly, heat he knew would blacken and crack his flesh in seconds. He had not tried to alter energy before, but Corran Horn could do it. Their lives depended on his success. Anakin opened himself again to the Force, focused his efforts, and leached the fire's heat from a radius around them both.

How long he kept this up, Anakin did not know. He slipped into a sort of fugue state, each breath pulling life from the sky, each exhalation bleeding heat into the crust of Yavin 4. But eventually he blinked and realized it was over, that the fire had burned past him and he knelt in ashes." - Edge of Victory I: Conquest.

The difference being Zannah may have actually shielded both herself and Laa directly from the flames. This is the stance I take as I find it unlikely she could have accomplished such a complex technique like funneling air and heat with the Force or employing tutaminis.

This isn't a one off feat either as Zannah has demonstrated feats of raw power similar in magnitude such as TK powerful enough to disintegrate human flesh.

Maxi Pad Approach: Assuming the nexuses Bane was on had no effect. Taking hyperbole and exaggeration as fact. Developing calcs based off the literal words of the author to come to conclusions the author clearly didn't intend. Looking too deeply into the text to see something that is just not there.

Going by THIS approach what is the extent of Bane's capabilities.

Well, this stance would have you place Bane around late Purge era Vader level in Force power as he collapsed a temple when he was injured on a nexus that was hindering him. This would mean similar growth to that of Vader's over the next few decades and due to a few lines where Bane's physical attacks in DoE had the same effect as ones when he was in his orbalisk armor he would be assumed to be equal or more powerful then that incarnation. Once you scale up to DoE the character becomes roughly somewhere above Caedus.

Measured Approach: You can accept his feats for what they are. You can take context into account. You can realize Bane is a decently powerful individual with appreciable growth throughout his life time. And you can put bias to the side. Simple as that.

Taking all this into account you realize he was injured in PoD, that he clearly wasn't benefiting from it and that the DS nexus is hinted at having made it worse. You can also take into account it was amping his Darkside power. This is a feat that places him amongst beings like Decieved Malgus in raw TK. Take into account his growth over the next few decades and you have an individual that can probably replicate this feat especially when you consider Zannah believes Bane in his prime is just as deadly an opponent as a version confirmed to be more powerful then PoD ( RoT Orbalisk Bane ) it makes it pretty clear that DoE is not far behind that incarnation ( RoT Orbalisk Bane ) if at all.

No one asked.

I think I know which approach you favor Beni.

Your avi and sig are practically dripping with red.

Bane isn't "weak". Being a Qui Gon tier duelist and Obi Wan tier Force user is like a one in a hundred septillion occurrence. Vader would still destroy him.

1. Banite scaling
2. The PoD temple feat just involves breaking a few of the lower foundations
3. He struggles against sub-B team tier goes
4. He hasn't done anything Vader tier, except if you scale off of the temple feat and pretend that he busted the entire thing at once without prep

Well, I appreciate your imput Ell but I place Bane more along the lines of a TPM Maul tier duelist and a Decieved Malgus tier Force user.

Didn't Orbalisk Bane, arguably amped, have trouble with BM amped Lsu' speed, which was said to move in "blurs"?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Bane isn't "weak". Being a Qui Gon tier duelist and Obi Wan tier Force user is like a one in a hundred septillion occurrence. Vader would still destroy him.

1. Banite scaling
2. The PoD temple feat just involves breaking a few of the lower foundations
3. He struggles against sub-B team tier goes
4. He hasn't done anything Vader tier, except if you scale off of the temple feat and pretend that he busted the entire thing at once without prep

It's not Vader tier but I believe the feat is better then you're giving credit for. His "prep" consisted of a quick gather of power that would have take less then a few seconds given the speed of Force users and the fact that Kas'im was bearing down on him.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Well, I appreciate your imput Ell but I place Bane more along the lines of a TPM Maul tier duelist and a Decieved Malgus tier Force user.

That seems to be about the same range as where I put him. I'm not sold on Deceived Malgus being above Obi Wan as a Force user though.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Didn't Orbalisk Bane, arguably amped, have trouble with BM amped Lsu' speed, which was said to move in "blurs"?

I don't believe it mentioned him having trouble with her speed. He simply adopted a style that was brutish and all about offense which allowed to land hits on his armor but he obviously would have fough differently without it.

And you act as if someone stated to have been moving in "blurs" is an indication that they're bad when Mace, Anakin, Yoda and some of the fastest characters in the mythos have moved in "blurs."

While most Force users have it's a shorthand for "they're moving fast." And not an indication they're slower then other Force users in the mythos.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That seems to be about the same range as where I put him. I'm not sold on Deceived Malgus being above Obi Wan as a Force user though.

Ah, I see. I imagine it's because he stalemated Mustafar Anakin or something along those lines?

I'm not saying it's a bad showing. I just want to make a case for Deceived Malgus being faster than Orbalisk Bane, since he was also stated to move in "blurs".

I just forgot all the details of his fight against the Jedi strike and I'm solely based on third party (ie Bane haters) descriptions. That's why I asked if that's true or not.

As I said, many characters have "moved in blurs" simply because "Yoda was a blur" I wouldn't place Decieved Malgus as his equal in speed.

It didn't give orbalisk Bane trouble, no.

Trainee Bane was also stated to move in "blurs"

This blur argument has no potential lol

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Trainee Bane was also stated to move in "blurs"

This blur argument has no potential lol

Shit, you ruined my agenda.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It's not Vader tier but I believe the feat is better then you're giving credit for. His "prep" consisted of a quick gather of power that would have take less then a few seconds given the speed of Force users and the fact that Kas'im was bearing down on him.

Well, Kas'im paused and gave a short monologue; Bane probably had time comparable to what Vitiate had to charge his attack against Revan, and that made the difference between his bolts getting knocked back on him and burning Revan.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ah, I see. I imagine it's because he stalemated Mustafar Anakin or something along those lines?

That's part of it, yeah. Obi Wan got pushed around by Maul a few times in TCW, but he's far more powerful by RotS; he may have gotten ragdolled by Dooku, but the junior novel suggests that it was difficult for Dooku to do, and Stover suggests that he largely was just much faster than Obi Wan - Dooku's also got better feats and accolades than Malgus, especially Deceived Malgus.

I think Qui-Gon duelist and Obi Wan Force user is the most reasonable conclusion from Bane powerscaling and fits his feats well enough. He was losing to an amped Rastka Lsu; I'd see Anoon Bondara losing to a version of him weaker in the Force but amped by battle meditation, and then Bane grows more powerful by DoE.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, Kas'im paused and gave a short monologue; Bane probably had time comparable to what Vitiate had to charge his attack against Revan, and that made the difference between his bolts getting knocked back on him and burning Revan.



That's part of it, yeah. Obi Wan got pushed around by Maul a few times in TCW, but he's far more powerful by RotS; he may have gotten ragdolled by Dooku, but the junior novel suggests that it was difficult for Dooku to do, and Stover suggests that he largely was just much faster than Obi Wan - Dooku's also got better feats and accolades than Malgus, especially Deceived Malgus.

I think Qui-Gon duelist and Obi Wan Force user is the most reasonable conclusion from Bane powerscaling and fits his feats well enough. He was losing to an amped Rastka Lsu; I'd see Anoon Bondara losing to a version of him weaker in the Force but amped by battle meditation, and then Bane grows more powerful by DoE.

Fair enough though it can be argued that Vitiate didn't really view Revan as a threat before he managed to deflect his bolts back at him. He probably got serious after being knocked on his @ss and his companions showing up.

Better feats? Then Deceived Malgus? I'm interested to hear about this because as far as I'm aware he has a comparable feat in his manipulation of that ship he sent across a divide but not one that's better.

Losing to an amped Raskta? Um, how do you mean?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Fair enough though it can be argued that Vitiate didn't really view Revan as a threat before he managed to deflect his bolts back at him. He probably got serious after being knocked on his @ss and his companions showing up.


Unlikely, seeing as how Revan had already resisted Vitiate's TP and then knocked him on his ass. Seems like Vitiate would've taken him seriously by that point.



Well, there are the cruisers, and then there's his ragdolling of Ventress, TCW Obi Wan, Vos, etc., his ability to replenish himself within seconds of getting exhausted facing Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time, his Force fight with Yoda, one-shotting three nightsisters while drugged, taking out TCW Anakin with lightning, and general accolades placing him as the most powerful Jedi next to Yoda during his tenure.



Bane was on the defensive the whole time, despite his entire body being covered in invincible armor.

Wasn't Farfalla just getting in Lsu's way in the Bane fight, essentially making him a bumbling oaf? And the mighty Johun Othone was there? And Lsu was putting figure 8's all over Bane with her lightsaber? And Bane didn't kill any of them until Zannah backstabbed Lsu?

Not looking good for Baney boy.

The only time Bane was retreating against Raskta alone was when he was drawing her away from Worror. After that point, she needed Farfalla and Johun to even drive him into a defensive stance.

Didn't Farfalla prevent Lsu from being ragdolled, though, by erecting a barrier?

Originally posted by Trocity
Wasn't Farfalla just getting in Lsu's way in the Bane fight, essentially making him a bumbling oaf? And the mighty Johun Othone was there? And Lsu was putting figure 8's all over Bane with her lightsaber? And Bane didn't kill any of them until Zannah backstabbed Lsu?

Not looking good for Baney boy.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Didn't Farfalla prevent Lsu from being ragdolled, though, by erecting a barrier?

Farfalla protected Lsu from Bane's telekinesis, but in the actual duel he was worse than useless (more evidence that in dueling numbers are overrated with fodder).

Looked into the fight. You're right on the chronology of events so fair enough.

I'm not arguing Dooku. I mean Obi Wan. "I'm not sold on Deceived Malgus being above Obi Wan as a Force user though."

He was facing a team and was on his backfoot when they were all facing him at once. I don't remember him being on his backfoot when it was just Raskta.

This is the beginning of the fight against two of them.

"From the corner of her eye she saw Bane take a completely different approach. Protected by his orbalisk armor, he charged forward to meet the two Jedi Masters confronting him head-on." - Rule of Two.

"As they burst into the room a man who could only have been Darth Bane charged recklessly toward them. In any other instance the move would have spelled a quick end to the encounter, as Raskta raced ahead of Farfalla to carve the Sith to pieces.

Raska's blue blades flickered too quickly for the eye to see, neutralizing her enemy's initial, wild attack then landing half a dozen lethal blows to his chest and abdomen. But instead of toppling, the big man kept coming, never even breaking stride. He would have plowed straight into Raskta, trampling her under his heavy boots, had she not cartwheeled to the side at the last possible instant." - Rule of Two.

"Their enemy fell upon them again, following up the lightning with pure aggression. Raskta rushed ahead of Farfalla to meet this second charge. She crouched low, viciously slashing at his thighs and calves, attempting to leave their opponent crawling legless on the floor. Her blades carved through his boots and sliced wide gashes in his pants, only to reveal more of the chitinous shells.

Bane brought his lightsaber down at the Echani, who crossed her blades into an X, attempting to block and trap her opponent's weapon at the point of intersection. But the Sith's move was only a feint meant to distract her, and at the last instant he pulled his weapon back and swung an elbow around to catch her in the ribs. The contact lifted her off her feet and sent her sprawling." - Rule of Two.

The offensive your referring to is a trick by Bane who was simply trying to get close to the Jedi who was battle meditating the group. A pretty ingenious maneuver on Bane's part honestly.

"Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought.

Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta's blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room.

Battle meditation required Master Worror's complete focus; there was no chance for him to mount any type of defense. If Bane cut him down, the others would lose the only advantage that gave them any chance of surviving the encounter." - Rule of Two.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The only time Bane was retreating against Raskta alone was when he was drawing her away from Worror. After that point, she needed Farfalla and Johun to even drive him into a defensive stance.

You don't really need to bother reading what I posted. Emp sums it up here.

Nobody cares.

Cool. Thanks for commenting.

Bane was the only 6 foot guy in a era of midgets --- sorry if I ain't all that impressed.

Put it this way; Bane struggled more against Lsu than Maul did against Anoon Bondara, despite Anoon having better accolades and presumably more raw power than Lsu. And Lsu's battle meditation may or may not have made up this gap; Bane had his orbalisks anyway.

Raskta doesn't have accolades. I think being able to pave your way through hordes of Sith and killing hundreds throughout a war that lasted a few years puts you on the level of a battlemaster like Boondara. Especially when you consider that Grievous's defeat of 5 Jedi simultaneously was unheard of ( despite their exhaustion ) even taking into account the existence of Dooku's other dark side adepts.

I don't see what indicates superior raw power. Yes they were probably a superior combative force user but as is noted in the novel Raskta let those abilities atrophy in favor of augmentation which is the only force ability worth taking into account when looking purely at a lightsaber combat scenario.

Also I don't see what the difference in their performance was. Every time Raskta went on the offensive him she was driven back or nearly killed. The only time she pushed him was when he allowed her to.

Emp take over. I've got to get to class.

I guess I'm the measured approach but i still will never put Bane above Vader in anything barring FLS. And thats only cuz Vader can't use it. /shrug

I honestly hold prime Bane a little but under Vader and about equal to FE Malgus. Those three are all pretty close to each other.

I'm also part of the 'measured approach' way of thinking. Don't lowball him like Ell or Carth, but don't think he's as good as DMB says. Below Vader, but not by much.

Originally posted by Petrus
I'm also part of the 'measured approach' way of thinking. Don't lowball him like Ell or Carth, but don't think he's as good as DMB says. Below Vader, but not by much.

Yeah, this seems fair.

If that's true, Vader ought to literally be an insect next to Palpatine.

He is.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Raskta doesn't have accolades. I think being able to pave your way through hordes of Sith and killing hundreds throughout a war that lasted a few years puts you on the level of a battlemaster like Boondara.

Not when basically all of those sith are weaklings who were promoted to "sith lord" out of desperation and were weaker than trainees that had never used a lightsaber before and couldn't create lightning, and who were getting their asses kicked by an Army of Light that was arming orphans and calling them Jedi.



Those were five of the best duelists in the Order, not some no-named sith fodder.



Because she's actually below average in combative Force abilities and also her defenses; that suggests that she's average in overall potential at best. Compare her to, say, Dooku, who was just as obsessed with dueling - he still had very good combative Force power. Same with Windu, Qui Gon, Obi Wan, etc. The top duelists, as in the tier below the B-team, are still in the upper 0.1% of all Force users. Otherwise there's no way they could compete.



Bane couldn't beat her even when she was being hindered and he had invincible armor on; in fact were it not for his armor, he'd have been killed several times.

Hardly, but all of this is merely good for Lsu. It doesn't bring Bane down, it pushes her up.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Because she's actually below average in combative Force abilities and also her defenses; that suggests that she's average in overall potential at best. Compare her to, say, Dooku, who was just as obsessed with dueling - he still had very good combative Force power. Same with Windu, Qui Gon, Obi Wan, etc. The top duelists, as in the tier below the B-team, are still in the upper 0.1% of all Force users. Otherwise there's no way they could compete.

Faulty logic. It suggests no such thing. Lsu can be powerful as hell yet still be comparatively (to Bane) weak in Force abilities due to her single-minded focus on dueling abilities. Dooku may be a fencing nut, but he clearly deeply explored other aspects of the Force, as did the others you mentioned. This isn't the case with Raskta.

You're just assuming that all force users have to be the same, ignoring that the text directly states why this is the case and it isn't that she's weak.

She was legitimately below average, not just relative to Bane.

"A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks." Thats all it says. This doesn't remotely suggest shes not powerful, she clearly is to be able to move at the speeds she was and to rip apart so many Sith.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Bane was the only 6 foot guy in a era of midgets --- sorry if I ain't all that impressed.

Stop hating on Wilt, dog.

Well, Wilt had Russel to go against at least.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not when basically all of those sith are weaklings who were promoted to "sith lord" out of desperation and were weaker than trainees that had never used a lightsaber before and couldn't create lightning, and who were getting their asses kicked by an Army of Light that was arming orphans and calling them Jedi.



Those were five of the best duelists in the Order, not some no-named sith fodder.



Because she's actually below average in combative Force abilities and also her defenses; that suggests that she's average in overall potential at best. Compare her to, say, Dooku, who was just as obsessed with dueling - he still had very good combative Force power. Same with Windu, Qui Gon, Obi Wan, etc. The top duelists, as in the tier below the B-team, are still in the upper 0.1% of all Force users. Otherwise there's no way they could compete.



Bane couldn't beat her even when she was being hindered and he had invincible armor on; in fact were it not for his armor, he'd have been killed several times.

She fought on the frontlines. You don't think the Brotherhood would have assaulted with elite forces to make certain key advancements against the Jedi?

They were exhausted.

But we know that's obviously not the case given RoT Orbalisk Bane's power level and the fact that Raskta was able to keep up in terms of speed.

He couldn't outright overwhelm without effort, no. But as I said she was nearly overwhelmed twice by Force attacks and Bane decided the smartest decision was to end the Jedi enhancing the team with battle meditation over taking them apart as a team.

And that's the case because you're forgetting we don't have to assume this Bane's level of power as he's already confirmed to be more powerful then his temple busting self with a single orbalisk. This is only relevant in regards to his skill and Raskta's ability.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
She fought on the frontlines. You don't think the Brotherhood would have assaulted with elite forces to make certain key advancements against the Jedi?


I mean Ruusan was the key battle of the war - one of the key battles in galactic history - and I'm basing the pathetic level of the sith from that. Even their most elite sith are...Qordis? Kopecz? Lol.



They're still better than Qordis and Kopecz, which are the upper limit of the sith that Lsu may have faced.



Seems kind of circular since we're trying to set Bane's power. But the point is that there's no way someone weak in the Force, or even average, could ever challenge, say, a Maul, not when Maul has amazing technical ability and raw power.



Yeah Bane was stronger than her in the Force; it doesn't change the fact that nobody would be able to see Dooku or Obi Wan struggling against Lsu in a duel. Dooku had the upper hand against the power of a restrained Anakin, let alone a mediocre Force user with some battle meditation.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And that's the case because you're forgetting we don't have to assume this Bane's level of power as he's already confirmed to be more powerful then his temple busting self with a single orbalisk. This is only relevant in regards to his skill and Raskta's ability.

The temple busting feat isn't that good though; he charged it for several second and only busted some pillars.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks." Thats all it says. This doesn't remotely suggest shes not powerful, she clearly is to be able to move at the speeds she was and to rip apart so many Sith.

She was powerful, but if she were powerful on the level of, say, Cin Drallig, himself a weapons master, she wouldn't have been "weak" against Force attacks. Plenty of upper-tier blademasters are still more than capable of defending against Force attacks; Rastka's weakness was relative to the average (Farfalla was better at defending against them than she was), not relative to Bane.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean Ruusan was the key battle of the war - one of the key battles in galactic history - and I'm basing the pathetic level of the sith from that. Even their most elite sith are...Qordis? Kopecz? Lol.



They're still better than Qordis and Kopecz, which are the upper limit of the sith that Lsu may have faced.



Seems kind of circular since we're trying to set Bane's power. But the point is that there's no way someone weak in the Force, or even average, could ever challenge, say, a Maul, not when Maul has amazing technical ability and raw power.



Yeah Bane was stronger than her in the Force; it doesn't change the fact that nobody would be able to see Dooku or Obi Wan struggling against Lsu in a duel. Dooku had the upper hand against the power of a restrained Anakin, let alone a mediocre Force user with some battle meditation.

Powerful Sith Lords, yes.

I doubt it an exhausted master Jedi is superior to the most powerful Sith in the Brotherhood.

It's not. We're trying to establish DoE Bane's power. We already have confirmation that orbalisk Bane is > temple buster Bane.

Except we know she's not mediocre given her augmentation compared to this Bane's own. As I said we're not trying to establish orbalisk Bane's power as that's confirmed within the novel.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The temple busting feat isn't that good though; he charged it for several second and only busted some pillars.

I believe the text mentions that he shakes the temples very foundations. And I'm not completely sure on this but I believe Emp has some lines that describe the portion of the temple Bane destroyed as a large section of it or the parts he destroyed making up a large portion of the front. Nephys or Emp would be able to explain this better as I've only heard the concept once or twice.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
She was powerful, but if she were powerful on the level of, say, Cin Drallig, himself a weapons master, she wouldn't have been "weak" against Force attacks. Plenty of upper-tier blademasters are still more than capable of defending against Force attacks; Rastka's weakness was relative to the average (Farfalla was better at defending against them than she was), not relative to Bane.

Cin Drallig has demonstrated that he is capable of defending against powerful Force attacks? By all means, please post your evidence for such.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Cin Drallig has demonstrated that he is capable of defending against powerful Force attacks? By all means, please post your evidence for such.

RotS game, anyone?

Or are you having memory problems today, heathen?

But that fight isn't canon in Legends.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
But that fight isn't canon in Legends.

Shhh Zenny. Shhh

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Well, Wilt had Russel to go against at least.

That's right, *****.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
RotS game, anyone?

Or are you having memory problems today, heathen?

Post it.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Post it.

https://youtu.be/RfW4vK-Fu1A?t=194

Originally posted by Zenwolf
https://youtu.be/RfW4vK-Fu1A?t=194


I had Cin above Mace because of that feat tbh

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I had Cin above Mace because of that feat tbh

He'd be above a lot of others in just about everything from the fight alone lol, he died more due to a cheap shot than skill.

I have him around Freedon Nadds level.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
But that fight isn't canon in Legends.

Thank you Zen.