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In Legends, how powerful could Vader be after Mustafar, if he were to reach his potential?

80% of Sidious.

Sidious theorized that his limits were only mental, that had Vader owned up to what he did and embraced it that he could have unlocked his full potential again. Not sure if I agree with his theory or not, but it is something to consider.

The explanation that he lost potential along with his burnt tissues and lost limbs is pretty ridiculous. That would mean a tall or obese person does have greater force potential than an average one.

I'm more of a fan of the mental trauma theory.

Originally posted by MythLord
80% of Sidious.

I thought that's what he was by RotJ.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Sidious theorized that his limits were only mental, that had Vader owned up to what he did and embraced it that he could have unlocked his full potential again. Not sure if I agree with his theory or not, but it is something to consider.

Yeah, it's possible; I never liked the idea that losing limbs would literally limit his potential. It also doesn't fit what we see with Maul.

Didn't Lucas say that Vader's potential was cut in half at Mustafar - and that it has originally been twice of Sidious's? So now it's the same?

Yeah, in legends, Sidious believed it wasn't his physical limitations that held him back, but the fact that he couldn't accept his past actions, and if he came to accept them and fully embrace the darkside, he would be able to awaken the his true potential. Plagueis also believed that loss of limbs/body parts didn't weaken ones connection to the force

And canon says he didn't lose any potential.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
The explanation that he lost potential along with his burnt tissues and lost limbs is pretty ridiculous. That would mean a tall or obese person does have greater force potential than an average one.


I don't think that's necessarily true. That's like saying losing limbs shouldn't hurt your ability to run because some short people are fast.

Originally posted by Rebel95

And canon says he didn't lose any potential.

I don't think that's made clear - it just claims that the injury "strengthened his connection", which might be short term. If Vader hadn't lost his potential he should've been able to annihilate Palpatine by blinking in RotJ.

Still, I agree with Sidious's assessment of Anakin's limited potential. If we assume losing his limbs has little to do with being limited in potential, then a full-potential suit Vader would at least be > ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I thought that's what he was by RotJ.



Yeah, it's possible; I never liked the idea that losing limbs would literally limit his potential. It also doesn't fit what we see with Maul.

Didn't Lucas say that Vader's potential was cut in half at Mustafar - and that it has originally been twice of Sidious's? So now it's the same? I honestly ignore a lot of Lucas says because I find it very difficult to reconcile his statements with what we actually see in novels or visually. So the 80% Sidious thing I find as BS, and we know from the fact Anakin was SUPPOSED to be > The Father, that his potential is FAR more than just double that of Sidious. So I really don't trust or listen to anything Lucas says when debating about the EU.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think that's necessarily true. That's like saying losing limbs shouldn't hurt your ability to run because some short people are fast.

False analogy. What I'm saying is, if limb extension and living tissues affect connection with the Force, on average taller Jedi Knights would've greater force connections than average or short Jedi Knights.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think that's made clear - it just claims that the injury "strengthened his connection", which might be short term. If Vader hadn't lost his potential he should've been able to annihilate Palpatine by blinking in RotJ.

It's also never made clear in canon that he lost any potential. And I think Sidious' logic applies to canon as well, that his limitations were mental, not physical, which would explain why that didn't happen.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I thought that's what he was by RotJ.

Actually, Lucas was talking about RotS Vader and his loss of potential. He could've been 2x Sidious, but now that dropped down 4/5s of Sheev.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
False analogy. What I'm saying is, if limb extension and living tissues affect connection with the Force, on average taller Jedi Knights would've greater force connections than average or short Jedi Knights.

Well to adjust my analogy then, that losing limbs is bad for you doesn't mean short people are less healthy than tall ones.

Originally posted by MythLord
Actually, Lucas was talking about RotS Vader and his loss of potential. He could've been 2x Sidious, but now that dropped down 4/5s of Sheev.

Wait...really?

Originally posted by Rebel95
It's also never made clear in canon that he lost any potential. And I think Sidious' logic applies to canon as well, that his limitations were mental, not physical, which would explain why that didn't happen.

Ah, ok. I mean, the RotS novelization is still canon; not sure if Lucas's musings are.

Originally posted by MythLord
Actually, Lucas was talking about RotS Vader and his loss of potential. He could've been 2x Sidious, but now that dropped down 4/5s of Sheev.

We've been over this before, lmao. He wasn't referring to potential at all, lmao.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well to adjust my analogy then, that losing limbs is bad for you doesn't mean short people are less healthy than tall ones.

It's another false analogy.

The thesis is that losing limbs and tissue affected Vader's connection with the Force.

The immediate conclusion we have: Limbs and living tissue (cell count) positively affects one's connection with the force, hence we can reach at the ridiculous situation I introduced above.

There's also the fact Anakin never felt the slightest disturb in his connection with the Force after he had almost all of his forearm cut off by Dooku.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Wait...really?

Yeah, it makes sense that it was referring to potential.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
We've been over this before, lmao. He wasn't referring to potential at all, lmao.

You've been over this with Nova, not me. And yeah, he was. He was talking about Anakin's potential was so great that he could've been 2xPalpatine, and now he's 20% less.

Sounds like he's referring to potential to me.

Pretty sure the deciding factor is how many midi-chlorians you have per cell. The more that is the greater your ability to manipulate the Force. Losing a limb shouldn't impede that since an individual cell count is whats important.

Of course the better answer would be that your connection to the Force is spiritual in nature and that the Force flows through all living things. A person who is more machine than man is hampered in connecting to all life and blocked off spiritually from the rest of the galaxy.

Originally posted by MythLord
You've been over this with Nova, not me. And yeah, he was. He was talking about Anakin's potential was so great that he could've been 2xPalpatine, and now he's 20% less.

Sounds like he's referring to potential to me.

Several sources say Sidious was afraid of Vader's potential and he could've equaled him. 80% is not his potential.

Maul didn't lose any power after having the lower half of his body removed... Another reason I go with Sidious' theory that it's a psychological limitation

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ah, ok. I mean, the RotS novelization is still canon; not sure if Lucas's musings are.
I don't believe they are

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Several sources say Sidious was afraid of Vader's potential and he could've equaled him. 80% is not his potential.
Forgot about that

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Several sources say Sidious was afraid of Vader's potential and he could've equaled him. 80% is not his potential.

Sheev is a paranoid megalomaniac, though. I'd take Lucas' word over Sidious' paranoia.

Originally posted by Rebel95
I don't believe they are They're canon to Legends.

Oh; Lucas' musings. Yeah; that basically amounts to authorial intent (which was thrown out the window w/ the new Canon).

Originally posted by MythLord
Sheev is a paranoid megalomaniac, though. I'd take Lucas' word over Sidious' paranoia.

Except you aren't taking Lucas' word, you are reading into it.

Difference.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Except you aren't taking Lucas' word, you are reading into it.

Difference.

Unless the RotS, quadriplegic amputee, Vader is 4/5s of Vader then I'm not reading into it.

Yes you do. IIrc he's talking in future stance when saying Anakin could've been 200% of Sidious and then switches to present when saying Vader is 80%.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yes you do. IIrc he's talking in future stance when saying Anakin could've been 200% of Sidious and then switches to present when saying Vader is 80%.
That's how I interpreted it

Exactly.

The text specifically says "now he's 80%". "He's" as in Vader -- if he was talking about potential, the correct word sequence would have been "it's now 80%" or something analogous to that.

Originally posted by MythLord
Unless the RotS, quadriplegic amputee, Vader is 4/5s of Vader then I'm not reading into it. 4/10 of full-power Anakin; 4/5 of Sidious.

Nothing is said of Sidious' potential. Or Vader's.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Sidious theorized that his limits were only mental, that had Vader owned up to what he did and embraced it that he could have unlocked his full potential again. Not sure if I agree with his theory or not, but it is something to consider. I agree with this theory especially considering advanced applications of force heal and the existence of technology that allows them to clone entire bodies. You mean to tell me that they could not have produced Vader a fresh set of arms and legs just by collecting his tissue samples? It's a massive hole in the story. I prefer the mental block explanation because of this.

As such, a full potential Vader rag dolls 10 DE Palpatines simultaneously while making a sandwich and reading a magazine at the same time.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yes you do. IIrc he's talking in future stance when saying Anakin could've been 200% of Sidious and then switches to present when saying Vader is 80%.

He's referring to Vader right after Mustafar, though. I find it hard to believe that quadriplegic is actually touching the heel of Sidious' boot. And the same person who said Vader is 4/5s of Palpatine also noted Vader is closer to Dooku or Maul than he is to Sheev.

Of course, if you wanna say it refers to power, the quote also notes Vader lost Anakin's abilities and use of the Force, which means Anakin is > Vader, but I know the Vader brigade won't admit that.

Aren't there also quotes saying that he could never have matched Sidious ever again after Mustafar?

Yeah. Sidious was just being a paranoid numbskull. I mean, the guy thought Dooku and Asajj together can overthrow him; I guess Tyranus and Ventress > Sidious now?

In fairness, that's just TCW's stupidity, but yeah.