Franklin Richards and the Mad Celestials invade the Dragon Ball Multiverse

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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Mutant reality warper and the deadly Celestial Host are shunted into the Dragon Ball Multiverse by The One Above All. Their objective is to eradicate all life within the 12 universes. Do they succeed?

http://i.imgur.com/bh7LloR.png

AND:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111201466/4871592-8367435540-tumbl.jpg

VERSUS:

http://watch32.is/imgposter/TGm1dbl.jpg

Rules

-The interference of anyone above Beerus-level is completely off limits. This means no Omni King, no Daishinkan, no Whis, etc.
-Only characters from the current Super timeline, (Goku Black and Zamasu are allowed, but say, Golden Frieza, is not).
-The Dragon Ball cast can use the Earth Dragon Balls, but not the Super Dragon Balls. The Marvel cast cannot use the Dragon Balls at all.
-both sides have basic knowledge of each other.

The Ellimist
If the invaders act intelligently, they win via time/reality warping.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Goku Black/the kaioshin have access to time rings, mind you.

cdtm
Is this a joke?

Superman can solo all of DBZ, true reality warpers are waaay above their level.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
roll eyes (sarcastic)

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why I think DB can win:

Firepower: DB is toting a multitude of people that have comparable if not superior raw power to the invaders, including Beerus, Champa, Goku, Vegeta, Black, Zamasu, etc. a suppressed Beerus and inferior Goku were causing macroverse-annihilating shockwaves with their punches, and Beerus and Champa fighting would cause the destruction of both universes 6 and 7. Meanwhile, the Mad Celestials individually were inferior to a well-fed Galactus. Even the Merged Celestial isn't necessarily more powerful than Beerus or Champa.

Haxx: obviously I'm not saying this is an advantage in favor of DB, but Beerus (and presumably Champa) have the ability to completely nullify even universe-busting energy, and the ability to completely erase beings from existence with a word. Furthermore, access to the time ring affords Goku Black in particular a solid level of time haxx, and Zamasu is completely invulnerable to physical attacks. If they were to fuse...

Numbers: there are simply too many powerful beings for the invaders to deal with. Getting caught off guard by any of the aforementioned powerhouses would lead to certain death, as they are all packing some degree of universal-level power. Even the lower tier fighters like Piccolo and SSJ3 Gotenks can be conceivable threats through scaling.

SSJGGogeta
I completely agree with XSUPREMEXSKILLZ. Tbh, I even believe that Beerus could likely take care of them by his lonesome. He's been the same level of strength, presumably since the beginning of the universe, and that level of power is enough to dish out universe busting attacks and nullify them, while operating at around 1% of his full power.

Of course, this isn't something we know for a fact. He accomplished these feats, but they very well could have been achieved at anywhere from 50% to 70% of his full power. However, it's dependent on the recent DBS episode. Whether Beerus is more, or less powerful than SSJB Vegito is the deciding factor here. SSJB Vegito should be solidly 200x more powerful than SSJB Vegeta or Goku, going by scaling. If Beerus is stronger than him, then he's also over 200x stronger than the universe busting SSJB Goku.

Either way, DBS wins, as XSUPREMEXSKILLZ explained in great detail.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Thanks.

I kinda wanna see some detailed arguments favoring the invaders, though. Anyone?

The Ellimist
up

RealityWarper
Franklin team stomps. The DB team has no abilities to stop them.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by The Ellimist
up

A lot has happened in DBS since you were last on. Around when you made this thread, Immortal Zamasu became a timeline and started merging with ALL timelines...and then Jiren appeared, who's mere presence and flow of power shook the infinite world of void, (his power literally reached infinity). There's also a lot of might mortals to choose from, like Goku, Vegeta, Frieza (he's back again,) Toppo, Gohan, Aniraza, Kefla, etc.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Mutant reality warper and the deadly Celestial Host are shunted into the Dragon Ball Multiverse by The One Above All. Their objective is to eradicate all life within the 12 universes. Do they succeed?

http://i.imgur.com/bh7LloR.png

AND:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111201466/4871592-8367435540-tumbl.jpg

VERSUS:

http://watch32.is/imgposter/TGm1dbl.jpg

Rules

-The interference of anyone above Beerus-level is completely off limits. This means no Omni King, no Daishinkan, no Whis, etc.
-Only characters from the current Super timeline, (Goku Black and Zamasu are allowed, but say, Golden Frieza, is not).
-The Dragon Ball cast can use the Earth Dragon Balls, but not the Super Dragon Balls. The Marvel cast cannot use the Dragon Balls at all.
-both sides have basic knowledge of each other.

Sorry but you say the DB cast can use the SDB whose range of powers are still unknown.

In that aspect is like you including Whis and the other high tiers into this fight.

The Super Dragon Ball could be used to erase all the Marvel counterparts.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The OP literally says the dragon ball cast can't use the Super Dragon Balls. erm

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The OP literally says the dragon ball cast can't use the Super Dragon Balls. erm

laughing out loud My Bad.

In that case.....

Bills should still be able to win i believe. The Mad Celestials are very powerful...but they dont reach such power i believe.

Josh_Alexander
The only reason the Celestials managed to defeat Galactus is because this isnt a Full Power Galactus.

Considering that Bills>Normal Galactus then Bills should be able to win.

Galan007
So the DB-verse is capped at Hakaishin-level? In that case, the Mad Celestials would fall to the likes of Beerus and the other Hakaishin... But Franklin still solos, imo. Not only is he a full-fledged universal power, but his depth of power is FAR beyond anyone he'd be facing here...


Back when Franklin could barely even manifest his powers, he very nearly killed an AMPED Mephisto in his own realm...with TWO fuggin eye-beams:
http://i.imgur.com/nUFZhbxm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/PDwrAK3m.jpg


Then he progressed into the tier of universe-creation/bonafide Godhood:
http://i.imgur.com/j4MSrCal.jpg

*Worth noting that he has also created an infinite number of pocket realities, with a subconscious afterthought.


Around that time he was also casually negating attacks from Celestials(both energy-based and telepathic):
http://i.imgur.com/14yiHrum.jpg http://i.imgur.com/dn6FiLKm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Oh95NuZm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/5bNyys2m.jpg


And most recently, the kid dreamed-up/shaped every single universe in the Marvel multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/2sUp7x5m.jpg http://i.imgur.com/8s3SQoSm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/LQd6JVXm.jpg

*As the last scan states: Franklin was manipulating the "ENTIRE superstructure" -- heavily implying that he was acting in a fully multiversal capacity there.



So yeah...

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, I'd forgotten about Franklin being a Multiverse-shaper at this point. Is it possible he was also using the repository of Owen's power to do so?

Edit: based on the text, it seems like Reed is the one actually creating the universes...Franklin is just the "creative vision" behind them, so to speak. I'm not sure what to think of the "fast and loose with the entire superstructure" part.

cdtm
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, I'd forgotten about Franklin being a Multiverse-shaper at this point. Is it possible he was also using the repository of Owen's power to do so?

Edit: based on the text, it seems like Reed is the one actually creating the universes...Franklin is just the "creative vision" behind them, so to speak. I'm not sure what to think of the "fast and loose with the entire superstructure" part.

Reed writes the scripts, Franklin is the artist, Owen provides the tools and canvas.

Like Lucifer using Archangel Michaels creation stuffs. Which is definitely impressive enough to say he has the edge here..

Galan007
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, I'd forgotten about Franklin being a Multiverse-shaper at this point. Is it possible he was also using the repository of Owen's power to do so?

Edit: based on the text, it seems like Reed is the one actually creating the universes...Franklin is just the "creative vision" behind them, so to speak. I'm not sure what to think of the "fast and loose with the entire superstructure" part. Nope. Reed is the only one who received Owen's power -- Franklin did all that under his own power. thumb up

It's simple: Franklin created each universe ex nihilo, then handed them off to Reed, who hurled each one into its own individually designated reality -- essentially layering the multiverse(all the universes that Franklin whipped-up couldn't occupy the same space, after all.)

cdtm
Originally posted by Galan007
Nope. Reed is the only one who received Owen's power -- Franklin did all that under his own power. thumb up

It's simple: Franklin created each universe, and Reed sent/hurled each universe to its own designated reality within the multiverse(all these universes obviously couldn't occupy the same space, after all.)

"Then he , using all that power, spins them off into their own reality."

Sounds like Franklin is modeling to me, while Reed turns them into realities.

You could argue all Reed is doing is acting as a glorified fedex delivery system, but imo that vastly underplays his role in this, and is more a fault of the limits of the dialog..

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Galan007
Nope. Reed is the only one who received Owen's power -- Franklin did all that under his own power. thumb up

It's simple: Franklin created each universe ex nihilo, and Reed sent/hurled each universe to its own designated reality -- essentially 'layering' the multiverse(all of these universes that Franklin created obviously couldn't occupy the same space, after all.)

Interdooski.

So would you say Owen's power is still a level above Franklin's?

The Ellimist
Does DBS have any answer to reality warping?

cdtm
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Interdooski.

So would you say Owen's power is still a level above Franklin's?

Absolutely.

And read the scans, particularly the one Galan mentions (The mid one).

Galan's argument seems to be that Franklin does all the work of creating full scale universes, using his own power, while all Reed does is "ship" them. Like a messenger service.

That doesn't seem right to me, especially with the emphesis on Reed possessing "all that power". Imo, a better explanation is Franklin is the modeler, rendering each universe at less then scale (We can see the effect in his hands, as a bubble), while Reed does the process of turning them into a piece of the multiverse.

But it really is a hard to follow explanation given in those scans any way you slice it.

Galan007
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Interdooski.

So would you say Owen's power is still a level above Franklin's? Most definitely.

Franklin is somewhere between well-fed Galactus and Eternity, on average. By all implications, Owen still has the power of the entire Beyonder race, and is THE most powerful being in Marvel by a HUGE margin.

The only beings who might be able to rival him are the other races who reside within the Beyond Realm(there are evidently quite a few)... But since their powers are entirely unexplored at this point, Owen still sits comfortably at the top of the hierarchy.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Does DBS have any answer to reality warping?

Sheer power.

Pure power in End of Z has overcome or caused the following:

Matter Transmutation (Boo vs Vegetto)
Dimension Displacement (Hit vs Jiren)
Time Manipulation (Hit vs Jiren)
Being in a black hole (Goku/Androids vs U2)
Space tearing/space bending (Boo vs Vegetto, Aniraza)
Telepathy/illusions (U7 vs U4)
Absolute Zero freezing (Vegeta vs U9)

Point being, in DB, you bigger your number, the more likely you are capable of defending against and resisting haxx. Their foes would have to be more powerful than them in terms of pure power to be able to truly destroy them with haxx, as far as I'm concerned.

But as Galan pointed out, Franklin absolutely seems to have more pure power.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Galan007
Most definitely.

Franklin is somewhere between well-fed Galactus and Eternity, on average. By all implications, Owen still has the power of the entire Beyonder race, and is THE most powerful being in Marvel by a HUGE margin.

The only beings who might be able to rival him are the other races who reside within the Beyond Realm(there are evidently quite a few)... But since their powers are entirely unexplored at this point, Owen still sits comfortably at the top of the hierarchy.

Do you think any of the "greater than Hakaishin" powers in DBS would be able to defeat Franklin?

The Ellimist
Eh if you ignore PIS and CIS even the Celestials could clone Goku or Beerus/Whis/etc. and then train them in some pocket universe or something, lmao.

Galan007
Originally posted by cdtm
Galan's argument seems to be that Franklin does all the work of creating full scale universes, using his own power, while all Reed does is "ship" them. Like a messenger service. That's exactly what is happening.

Franklin created the universes, and then handed each one off to Reed, who sent them where they needed to go(thereby layering/structuring the new multiverse.) That's why Val calls Franklin a "universal SHAPER" when she is describing the event(s) to Sue -- that's why we see Reed literally THROWING Franklin's universes off into the distance.

There is certainly a metatextual overtone to the scene, but after you read it(along with the rest of Hickman's F4 tie-ins to Secret Wars) a few times, it becomes quite clear what is going on there. thumb up

cdtm
Originally posted by Galan007
That's exactly what is happening.

Franklin created the universes, and then handed each one off to Reed, who sent them where they needed to go(thereby layering and restructuring the new multiverse)... That's why Val literally calls Franklin a "universal SHAPER" -- that's why we literally see Reed THROWING Franklin's universes off into the distance.

There is certainly a metatextual overtone to the scene, but after you read it(along with the rest of Hickman's F4 tie-ins to Secret Wars), it becomes quite clear what is going on there. thumb up

But Franklin wore himself out creating "one" universe, didn't he?

If Franklin is that powerful, it makes you wonder why he "needs" "all that power" just to ship it.

But the words do leave themselves open to interpretation.. Say, a computer modeler/artist creates the nuts and bolts of a cgi scene, and the scene is created on more powerful hardware later. Which is what they DO in big budget cgi world building. Given the target audience includes a good many computer programmers, I could see this being the intent behind this convoluted scene.


And from a plot standpoint, it puts more emphasis on Reeds end then "Special delivery!" Not so impressive, from that point of view.

Galan007
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Do you think any of the "greater than Hakaishin" powers in DBS would be able to defeat Franklin? I think so, yeah...

Whis, for example, is powerful enough to one-shot Beerus(who is ~universal) with a casual chop, he can reverse time, he can create matter ex nihilo to an extent(we do not yet know the full depths of this ability), etc. etc. Hell, the very fact that Guide Angels can KO Hakaishin so casually suggests they can KO Franklin as well(given the chance, of course.) Flip side, I have no doubt that Franklin could also warp the Angels... So it'd be a quickdraw scenario, imo: whomever acts first, wins.

Then you have Daishinkan, who is FAR beyond ALL of the Guide Angels. ie. if a Guide Angel can beat Franklin, Daishinkan can beat him much easier.

Finally there's Zen-Oh, who could undoubtedly *squish* Franklin, given the chance(the dude is like a sentient Ultimate Nullifier, lol.)

Galan007
Originally posted by cdtm
But Franklin wore himself out creating "one" universe, didn't he? Franklin has been adept at universal creation ever since the 'training sessions' with his adult counterpart in Hickman's F4 run... It was all in preparation for his final showing in SW.

Originally posted by cdtm
If Franklin is that powerful, it makes you wonder why he "needs" "all that power" just to ship it. Franklin was powerful enough to shape/create all the universes, but wasn't able(or at least didn't know how) to precisely place each universe into it's own designated reality within the new multiverse... That's where Reed came in.

Originally posted by cdtm
And from a plot standpoint, it puts more emphasis on Reeds end then "Special delivery!" Not so impressive, from that point of view. Franklin and Reed were both emphasized to the same degree in that scene. Franklin created the universes. Reed sent each one to its own designated reality, thereby layering/structuring the new multiverse. Again, we literally see him THROW Franklin's universes off into the distance. /shrug

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Galan007
Most definitely.

Franklin is somewhere between well-fed Galactus and Eternity, on average. By all implications, Owen still has the power of the entire Beyonder race, and is THE most powerful being in Marvel by a HUGE margin.

The only beings who might be able to rival him are the other races who reside within the Beyond Realm(there are evidently quite a few)... But since their powers are entirely unexplored at this point, Owen still sits comfortably at the top of the hierarchy.

Owen doesn't have that power for his personal use. He is just storing it like a battery so it doesn't make any differences about his personal power-level.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sheer power.

Pure power in End of Z has overcome or caused the following:

Matter Transmutation (Boo vs Vegetto)
Dimension Displacement (Hit vs Jiren)
Time Manipulation (Hit vs Jiren)
Being in a black hole (Goku/Androids vs U2)
Space tearing/space bending (Boo vs Vegetto, Aniraza)
Telepathy/illusions (U7 vs U4)
Absolute Zero freezing (Vegeta vs U9)

Point being, in DB, you bigger your number, the more likely you are capable of defending against and resisting haxx. Their foes would have to be more powerful than them in terms of pure power to be able to truly destroy them with haxx, as far as I'm concerned.

But as Galan pointed out, Franklin absolutely seems to have more pure power.

You are mistaking a limitation of the powers in DB as they can be countered bu sheee power, for a general rule.

Reality warping doesn't care if the characters are powerful or not.

DB characters cannot counter it by sheer power.

cdtm
Originally posted by Galan007
Franklin has been adept at universal creation ever since the 'training sessions' with his adult counterpart in Hickman's F4 run... It was all in preparation for his final showing in SW.

Franklin was powerful enough to shape/create all the universes, but wasn't able(or at least didn't know how) to precisely place each universe into it's own designated reality within the new multiverse... That's where Reed came in.

Franklin and Reed were both emphasized to the same degree in that scene. Franklin created the universes. Reed sent each one to its own designated reality, thereby layering/structuring the new multiverse. Again, we literally see him THROW Franklin's universes off into the distance. /shrug

Young miss Richards also uses the term "ideas", and says he gives Richards the "ideas".

Again, the same way a modeled gives a renderer the idea, that gets built off of (Those universes then being shipped as the skeleton, which Reed "spins off" by building on it.)

I'll admit my interpretation is a lot weaker then yours based on what we see happening in the scene, though.

At face value, I more "hope" that was a mistake of storytelling, because Franklin being the multiverse builder is kind of out of nowhere. The whole saga was about the awesome power of the Beyonders, and logically you'd think the main engine for the solution would BE the Beyonders power.. and then here we have Franklin out of left field, fixing everything.

Reeds role could have been taken by any other experienced lower tier multiversal reality warper then. Nothing special about what he's doing, just get someone with the power and experience to ship those universes out (Of which Marvel has many.. It's a circus of multiversal reality warping freaks.)

TheTyrant
In DB power/raw ki > any kind of hax be it reality warping, magic, time manipulation, or mind ****ery. Pretty sure Beerus handles

RadZoa
Franklin simply waves his hand, and Zenos and all of Dragon Ball are erased from existence

SSJGGogeta
Uh, no.

Anyways, I'd definitely give this to the DB multiverse. If the DB cast has basic knowledge of the Marvel cast, Jiren will literally just kill him outright. Or Vegeta. Or Frieza. Or any of the other characters in DB that would be willing to kill him without giving him a chance to fight, while also having the ability to do so. Hit would be a prime example.

Put Hit up against Franklin, and Hit one-shots, tbh. Then someone like Goku or Vegeta could put down the Celestials. They're just so far above them at this point, I couldn't see the Celestials being able to do anything to them.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by RadZoa
Franklin simply waves his hand, and Zenos and all of Dragon Ball are erased from existence

Zeno is the only one with remotely a chance against him and even then I doubt that he can beat Franklin.

carver9
Beerus solos.

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