Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

mmm

Valkorion.

The late Immortal Emperor.

Valkorion

Valky

UnuThul almost overwhelmed Luke Skywalker; Valkorion couldn't dominate a carbonite frozen Outlander.

UnuThul

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valkorion.

Unuthul

Probably around the same; UnuThul couldn't dominate Jacen, Valkorion couldn't dominate the Outlander... Eh, both are more limited then they're made out to be at least.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
UnuThul almost overwhelmed Luke Skywalker; Valkorion couldn't dominate a carbonite frozen Outlander.

Valkorion

UnuThul's Telepathy is (officially) unrefined. Also, a large number of Jedi were able to resist his call. Not just Jacen Solo.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
UnuThul almost overwhelmed Luke Skywalker; Valkorion couldn't dominate a carbonite frozen Outlander.
Luke's mental defenses are supposed to be better than those of every Force-user out there?

By the way:

He evaded death by infiltrating the mind of the Outlander, his most powerful opponent.

Taken from Knights of the External Throne

However, Valkorion was not interested in reducing the Outlander to a puppet of his will. He found the Outlander willing to defeat his children, and manipulated him towards this end with subtle indoctrination. In this manner, Valkorion would escape judgement of his followers and give them the impression that Outlander was power-hungry and killed their heroes. He would conveniently eliminate the Outlander afterwards.

Play the game or stop making baseless assumptions. Your choice.

Thul.

I forgot, Valkorion's TP is more creepy and intense, he wins.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I forgot, Valkorion's TP is more creepy and intense, he wins.
You misread "UnuThul" as "Raynar Thul"

Valkorion.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Thul.

Valkorion.

No idea, but if UnuThul's telepathy really was almost strong enough to mind-slave GM Luke, I'm inclined to side with him.

Up

Still UnuThul.

Still Valk

Valkorion, yeah.

Bump

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Valkorion, yeah.

Valkorion

Valkorion, he was simultaneously controlling the First Son, the Children of the Emperor, the Imperial Guard and was controlling Dark Councils and even the strongest Jedi strike teams. All of this was done whilst chaining Vaylin's powers and controlling Zakuul to varying degrees.

Revan and the Outlander were the only ones truly capable of defying his mind controlling, but only with exceptional circumstances involved.

UnuThul supposedly nearly broke Luke, yet can't control Jacen Solo.

Valkorion's TP will prove too creepy and intense for Thul to handle, yeah.

OMG, Thul can't break Jacen, he sucks.
Vitiate and the Dreadmasters can't break Revan over 300 years or the Outlander, good feat for them.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
OMG, Thul can't break Jacen, he sucks.
Vitiate and the Dreadmasters can't break Revan over 300 years or the Outlander, good feat for them.

Revan, one of the most powerful Force users ever, who has already experienced such domination, knows how to defend against it and is aided by a limitless source of energy to sustain his efforts.

Then the Outlander who is even more powerful, who was actually dominated by Valkorion and almost obliterated inside his own mind. Only saved by the Uber Holocron and the combined efforts of Lord Dramath, Arcann and Vaylin.

Outlander > Revan > Jacen, regardless.

UnuThul.

I'm not sure, but the arguments being made to low-ball Valkorion's TP are not good.

Also, I thought a lot of Jedi heard 'Thul's call and chose not to follow it...? Not just Jacen.

They were just calls/afterthoughts of his power, IIRC. Which still converted beings like Zekk, Jaina, Alema, etc.

When Thul set his sights on one person(in this case Luke) he was slowly but surely breaking his mind. In fact, Luke needed to escape his prison cell in Joiner King as fast as possible because he worried about his mental stability.

Then I guess it also depends on how strongly people relate actual combative prowess and Force power with being able to resist TP.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Revan, one of the most powerful Force users ever, who has already experienced such domination, knows how to defend against it and is aided by a limitless source of energy to sustain his efforts.

Then the Outlander who is even more powerful, who was actually dominated by Valkorion and almost obliterated inside his own mind. Only saved by the Uber Holocron and the combined efforts of Lord Dramath, Arcann and Vaylin.

Outlander > Revan > Jacen, regardless.
Jacen, one of the most powerful Force Users ever, with enorm willpower, who shruged off the torture of the Vong for a long time, as well as being severed by the Force, and archived Oneness in the Force, before going on a five-year long journey, where he learned esotheric sh!t like Flow-walking.
Also, IIRC, Jacen barely resisted 'Thul, while Vitiate failed to dominate him over the course of 300 years, with the help of the Dread Masters, on a Darkside Nexus.

What has being more powerful to do with it exactly? Also, the 'lander > Revan quote are likely raw power wise, just like Anakin > Yoda.
Regardless, the quote I know can be countered rather easily.

Luke >>>>>>>> Outlander/Revan tho.

Regardless, what are Valk's best TP showings? TPing a ko'ed strike team? TPing pre-prime Revan and Malak on a Darkside Nexus?

It just says OutLander is Vitiate's greatest adversary or something like that; he is, but not because he's the most OP.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Valkorion, yeah.

Originally posted by MythLord
It just says OutLander is Vitiate's greatest adversary or something like that; he is, but not because he's the most OP.
It could be combatively.
Outlander was pre prime as hot and considering how quickly he went from being ragdoll fodder to arcann to being his superior, the outlander's growth from hot could be massive

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Luke >>>>>>>> Outlander/Revan tho.

In willpower? Lolno.

Revan willed himself back from the dead and the Outlander beat Valkorion despite having most of her mind wiped out.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Revan, one of the most powerful Force users ever, who has already experienced such domination, knows how to defend against it and is aided by a limitless source of energy to sustain his efforts.

Then the Outlander who is even more powerful, who was actually dominated by Valkorion and almost obliterated inside his own mind. Only saved by the Uber Holocron and the combined efforts of Lord Dramath, Arcann and Vaylin.

Outlander > Revan > Jacen, regardless.
Caedus craps on revan

lol @ the Exile's reserves being a "limitless" power source.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In willpower? Lolno.

Revan willed himself back from the dead and the Outlander beat Valkorion despite having most of her mind wiped out.
Holy shit, not my point.

That was a response to AP's "''lander > Revan > Jacen".

Originally posted by MythLord
It just says OutLander is Vitiate's greatest adversary or something like that; he is, but not because he's the most OP.

He's stated to be Valkorion's most powerful opponent.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
lol @ the Exile's reserves being a "limitless" power source.

The Exile's Force Ghost is described as being capable of providing almost exactly that.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He's stated to be Valkorion's most powerful opponent.

Yeah, because Revan's dead.

Originally posted by NewGuy01 u
Yeah, because Revan's dead.
Plus valk may have been trying to boost the outlander's ego to manipulate him to take the throne

No, that was a statement from the SWTOR website I think. Something about him "entering the mind of his most powerful foe."

What the f-ck are you on about?

lol

You made a good point about Revan, but I'm not sure if I have Revan > Vaylin given her Nathema feats.

She certainly seems more powerful, but if it just came down to power she'd whoop the Outlander all day too. The problem is that she's inept; I'd be reluctant to give her the nod over a hardened warrior like Revan, myself.

I get what you're saying, but destroying the Asylum from orbit seems a tad bit beyond Revan.

Maybe so, I can't say with certainty because I haven't looked over it since it came out. Regardless, I don't think it changes my point, which is that that kind of thing is clearly beyond the scope of the Outlander's powers as well.

Basically, Vaylin leaves Nathema unchained and heads back to her fleet, she ragdolls 6 uber Zakuul Knights (they have red armor for some reason) and three of her executioners to death. The remaining executioner asks what they should do about her former prison(the Asylum) so she uses the Force to completely overload the chamber in the Asylum which reduces the entire Asylum and the mountain beneath it to ash. She doesn't even seem to struggle doing it either.

Chained Vaylin also gets a pretty great feat too, with her powers out of her control in her chamber, she's unleashing ao much power it's ashing scientists and would have destroyed the entire Asylum. But through sheer force of will she breaks free.

Originally posted by MythLord
They were just calls/afterthoughts of his power, IIRC. Which still converted beings like Zekk, Jaina, Alema, etc.

When Thul set his sights on one person(in this case Luke) he was slowly but surely breaking his mind. In fact, Luke needed to escape his prison cell in Joiner King as fast as possible because he worried about his mental stability. i remember thul hitting luke with a tk attack mid conversation when the first meet and luke worrying for a moment that he would be overwhelmed due to being suprised. Then Thul tried something along those lines again a few pages later when luke was ready for it and had no affect on him.

I dont remember the prison scene you're referring to in the Joiner King. U wouldnt happen to have a quote or a page number?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Jacen, one of the most powerful Force Users ever, with enorm willpower, who shruged off the torture of the Vong for a long time, as well as being severed by the Force, and archived Oneness in the Force, before going on a five-year long journey, where he learned esotheric sh!t like Flow-walking.
Also, IIRC, Jacen barely resisted 'Thul, while Vitiate failed to dominate him over the course of 300 years, with the help of the Dread Masters, on a Darkside Nexus.

What has being more powerful to do with it exactly? Also, the 'lander > Revan quote are likely raw power wise, just like Anakin > Yoda.
Regardless, the quote I know can be countered rather easily.

Luke >>>>>>>> Outlander/Revan tho.

Regardless, what are Valk's best TP showings? TPing a ko'ed strike team? TPing pre-prime Revan and Malak on a Darkside Nexus?
That is a terrible argument.

UnuThul issued a (telepathic) call across the galaxy that a large number of Jedi felt and found enticing. However, many were able to resist his call.

Jacen Solo was not able to resist the call initially but he managed to develop a countermeasure against it at a later stage. UnuThul eventually realized at some point that Jacen had become immune to his telepathic abilities.

Resistance to Telepathic powers is a learning experience and a matter of willpower. Raw power is not much of a factor in this case.

UnuThul wasn't the only Telepath who could break Luke Skywalker, Lord Nyax could as well. This implies that Luke has an element of doubt in his mind or some kind of innate fear that can be his weakness.

It is really stupid to underestimate Valkorion in this area. Telepathic powers aren't infallible but Valkorion's are as good as they can get.

LeG, you don't understand my point.
My point was that Outlander > Revan > Jacen in power means nothing to TP resistance, and that AP's argument doesn't makes sense.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
LeG, you don't understand my point.
My point was that Outlander > Revan > Jacen in power means nothing to TP resistance, and that AP's argument doesn't makes sense.
OK

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
UnuThul issued a (telepathic) call across the galaxy that a large number of Jedi felt and found enticing. However, many were able to resist his call.

Jacen Solo was not able to resist the call initially but he managed to develop a countermeasure against it at a later stage. UnuThul eventually realized at some point that Jacen had become immune to his telepathic abilities.

Because that call was much like what Kaan, Luke or Krayt did. It's not a direct mental domination. The fact that they found it enticing regardless just proves even passively Unu'Thul is a telepathic powerhouse.

When 'Thul sets his sights on someone, even Luke isn't completely safe. So breaking the Outlander really doesn't compare to almost breaking Skywalker.

Valk himself admits that he COULD NOT break the outlander on his own. He was only able to do this with the help of vaylin' spirit,

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, that was a statement from the SWTOR website I think. Something about him "entering the mind of his most powerful foe."
Confirms outlander>arcann which is incredible considering arcann was rag dolling him before

He made that decision before his son's betrayal, so I'm not sure Arcann is included in that evaluation. If he was, then Arcann must have grown in power over the following years, because there's no way BoKOTFE Outlander > Emperor Arcann.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He made that decision before his son's betrayal, so I'm not sure Arcann is included in that evaluation. If he was, then Arcann must have grown in power over the following years, because there's no way BoKOTFE Outlander > Emperor Arcann.
I see, you could argue outlander>arcann based on how they fared vs vaylin unleashing all her power

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That is a terrible argument.

UnuThul issued a (telepathic) call across the galaxy that a large number of Jedi felt and found enticing. However, many were able to resist his call.

Jacen Solo was not able to resist the call initially but he managed to develop a countermeasure against it at a later stage. UnuThul eventually realized at some point that Jacen had become immune to his telepathic abilities.

Resistance to Telepathic powers is a learning experience and a matter of willpower. Raw power is not much of a factor in this case.

UnuThul wasn't the only Telepath who could break Luke Skywalker, Lord Nyax could as well. This implies that Luke has an element of doubt in his mind or some kind of innate fear that can be his weakness.

It is really stupid to underestimate Valkorion in this area. Telepathic powers I aren't infallible but Valkorion's are as good as they can get.
This whole comparison is bs because it's based on valk being able to break the outlander on his own, something he admitted he couldn't do: "I needed new tools to break your physce"
The new tools refer to vaylin's spirit which he absorbed when the outlander killed her. Valk a CANNOT break the outlander on his own

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I see, you could argue outlander>arcann based on how they fared vs vaylin unleashing all her power

That's KOTET Outlander, entirely different animal.

Yea. It would suggest that the outlander has significantly better potential than arcann

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Valk himself admits that he COULD NOT break the outlander on his own. He was only able to do this with the help of vaylin' spirit,

I only just noticed this, but you're way off, Valkorion as a spirit had limited use of his powers. When the Outlander consumes Vaylin (and Arcann if you're dark side), he is empowering Valkorion's weak spirit. He bides his time for the Outlander to take the Throne and then completely dominates her in Force and Telepathy.

It took Lord Dramath, Arcann, Vaylin, Senya, and the Outlander with the Uber Holocron to defeat Valkorion in the Outlander's mind and release her.

That's ridiculously strong telepathic prowess for a weakened spirit.

The battle does take place in the Outlander's mental space, but I find it hard to call it a telepathic showing.

I'm more referring to all of the domination he performs over their spirits and such.

Ah, true.

As I recall, the Outlander survives Valkorions attempt at domination and goes on the counter-attack purely on her own merits. Although it does take a combination of forces to defeat him, the Outlanders will proved very much capable of withstanding and gaining ground against Valkorions attempts to snuff her out.

He thinks he cast her mind into the abyss, but the Outlander used the loophole of assuming Valkorion's form as Valkorion himself assumed the Outlander's. He says it was an oversight he won't repeat and then summons Vaylin (and Arcann) in spiritual form, but the Outlander has the Dramath Holocron and breaks Valkorion's domination of their spirits.

Doesn't summoning Vaylin prove that he couldn't do the job himself? He had to wait until after he absorbed her spirit in order to beat the Outlanders mind, as he himself admits. You say he was merely replenishing his own power but I'm not sure of how much I buy that. Valkorion consistently fails to or is unable to beat the Outlanders will, even when they're in a coma.

He also says in KotFE that the Outlanders will is equal to his. Surviving his attack despite almost losing everything is suggestive of the Outlanders immense mental fortitude imo.

Except the entire point is that he was killed by Arcann and cheated death by surviving in a comatose Outlander. He didn't have the power left to do much of anything, knowing this he purposefully forges the Outlander into a vessel of supreme power capable of withstanding his power.

As seen in KOTFE, if the Outlander allows Valkorion to attack Arcann, he uses the Outlander's connection to the Force but the power is clearly overwhelming her ability to sustain him. Even if it's Nox, whose entire being and spirit is designed to sustain massive power.

So when the time comes for the Outlander to take the Eternal Throne, Valkorion switches his power source from the Outlander herself to Vaylin's spirit(and Arcann depending on choice), therefore providing himself with a source of power to dominate an uncooperative Outlander.

Wow, KOTET really became a garbled pile of nonsense didn't it?

Originally posted by AncientPower
I only just noticed this, but you're way off, Valkorion as a spirit had limited use of his powers. When the Outlander consumes Vaylin (and Arcann if you're dark side), he is empowering Valkorion's weak spirit. He bides his time for the Outlander to take the Throne and then completely dominates her in Force and Telepathy.

It took Lord Dramath, Arcann, Vaylin, Senya, and the Outlander with the Uber Holocron to defeat Valkorion in the Outlander's mind and release her.

That's ridiculously strong telepathic prowess for a weakened spirit.
So in other words, valk couldn't dominate the outlander or take control of him on his own and he needed to take the spirits of others to empower him. Valk being able to take control off the outlander when amped doesn't mean anythng as clearly this wasn't something he could do by merit of his own power.
And yes valk does dominate the outlander, after absorbing valk's spirit. Valk can't mentally break the outlander

You mean after valk had taken control of the outlander's body(thanks to being amped) thus no longer being a disembodied spirit and when vaylin, and the outlander and co were disemobdied spirits?

I find it hard to believe he had less power than a Smuglander in carbonite, or with how weak they were upon leaving it. Or after getting stabbed by Arcann or at any other point in the series. We see that he still wields immense power if you unleash him against Arcann, far more than the Outlander does.

I mean sure but he can just forge the Outlander after taking over the body. Valkorion himself was a body he just stole and hollowed out. He only needed to wait until getting Vaylin because he couldn't do it himself.

The power isn't the important thing imo, its simply that the Outlanders mind is too strong for him to dominate without an edge. This doesn't diminish Valkorion at all, it just means the Outlander has Revan tier willpower.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wow, KOTET really became a garbled pile of nonsense didn't it?

It's actually the highpoint of the game imo. I know you don't consider that very high but imo it was quite good. Probably the best ending to a game Bioware has had since...... ME1?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except the entire point is that he was killed by Arcann and cheated death by surviving in a comatose Outlander. He didn't have the power left to do much of anything, knowing this he purposefully forges the Outlander into a vessel of supreme power capable of withstanding his power.

As seen in KOTFE, if the Outlander allows Valkorion to attack Arcann, he uses the Outlander's connection to the Force but the power is clearly overwhelming her ability to sustain him. Even if it's Nox, whose entire being and spirit is designed to sustain massive power.

So when the time comes for the Outlander to take the Eternal Throne, Valkorion switches his power source from the Outlander herself to Vaylin's spirit(and Arcann depending on choice), therefore providing himself with a source of power to dominate an uncooperative Outlander.

Assuming valk can mentally dominate the outlander because his spirit couldn't is a very unconventional line of reasoning

Valkorion was a spirit, that's why.

Valkorion possessed her, but hadn't hollowed her out as he has to do for his Voices.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I find it hard to believe he had less power than a Smuglander in carbonite, or with how weak they were upon leaving it. Or after getting stabbed by Arcann or at any other point in the series. We see that he still wields immense power if you unleash him against Arcann, far more than the Outlander does.

I mean sure but he can just forge the Outlander after taking over the body. Valkorion himself was a body he just stole and hollowed out. He only needed to wait until getting Vaylin because he couldn't do it himself.

The power isn't the important thing imo, its simply that the Outlanders mind is too strong for him to dominate without an edge.

If the outlander's mind is too strong for valk to dominate, then trying to argue valk can win this based on his ability to break the outlander's mine doesn't make any sense

Originally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion was a spirit, that's why.

Valkorion possessed her, but hadn't hollowed her out as he has to do for his Voices.
Can you show me non spirit valk breaking the outlander's mind? If not, I don't care. Valk's inability to break the outlander as a spirit doesn't mean he can do it when not a spirit

Originally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion was a spirit, that's why.

Valkorion possessed her, but hadn't hollowed her out as he has to do for his Voices.

So? He was a spirit when he destroyed Ziost and shat on Arcann. When he dominated the Outlander in KotFE and in the finale.

That's what he was trying to do in the finale, but the Outlander was able to survive his attempt to obliterate her psyche.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I find it hard to believe he had less power than a Smuglander in carbonite, or with how weak they were upon leaving it. Or after getting stabbed by Arcann or at any other point in the series. We see that he still wields immense power if you unleash him against Arcann, far more than the Outlander does.

I mean sure but he can just forge the Outlander after taking over the body. Valkorion himself was a body he just stole and hollowed out. He only needed to wait until getting Vaylin because he couldn't do it himself.

The power isn't the important thing imo, its simply that the Outlanders mind is too strong for him to dominate without an edge. This doesn't diminish Valkorion at all, it just means the Outlander has Revan tier willpower.

He weilds his immense power (I mean kinda, but not really, given he easily one-shotted Arcann prior to his death) via the Outlander's Force reserves, exerting hrr to the point she is almost crippled by the overwhelming prowess.

No he can't, because the Outlander's body wouldn't have lasted. Valkorion was supposedly a great champion of Zakuul so that is speculation. He needed Vaylin because he lost his powers upon death, are we forgetting how badly f*cked he was after he died on Kaas?

I can't see it, given he can dominate the spirits of Arcann and Vaylin so casually, even resurrecting them after spiritual death. Revan's willpower defended against SWTOR Vitiate at best, Valkorion is >> SWTOR Vitiate.

What you can or can't see doesn't matter. Show valk breaking the outlander on his own or you don't have an argument

I don't buy that idea. As I recall, the Outlander couldn't handle the strain of Valkorion's power, not anything to do with her own being drawn upon. Each time you use it it says "Accept Valkorion's power" and since Valkorion can use his power independantly of the Outlander and in fact on them, I don't believe their reserves were being used.

His power resided in the Outlander regardless, and it didn't seem to be an issue for him to just empower the Outlander's body to be capable of handling it when he wanted. And Kaas was a unique situation since he was already immensely weakened.

Revan resisted him and the Dread Masters for 300 years. The Outlander is simply comparable to Revan in willpower. He dominated his children but the Outlander > them, especially in willpower.