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Is there any reason, moral or economic, for having the absurd restrictions on high-skilled immigrants that America does today?

Literally America tries as hard as possible to discourage the world's best and brightest from applying to universities; then, if they do, they try to get them to graduate and leave as rapidly as they can, thus consciously minimizing their economic value to us. Literally certain political segments of the U.S. are trying to go for a brain drain away from the United States. It's kind of comical, actually.

Archaic immigration laws? I dunno can u cite examples

Demographics are too high. Most illegals and refugees create problems in first world countries, also, if youre highly skilled in your own country, why would you leave?

Stricter immigration creates more high skilled immigrants, but it complicates foreign policy and UN relations.

@Sin: An anecdotal example would be a friend of mine who is one of the most brilliant software engineers I've ever met, yet is struggling to renew his visa because he didn't make it through the lottery and technically doesn't fall under any of the categories favored by the national interest waiver. Meanwhile, xenophobic, low-IQ trump supporters who wouldn't be able to implement fizz-buzz if they had fifteen years to prepare are waiving their flags and talking about how immigrants are ruining our economy.

Originally posted by Its2016
Demographics are too high.

You mean we're running out of room? That's absurd - it's equally absurd to think that a highly skilled immigrant would require a net draining of resources, given that their economic contribution would presumably be far above the mean anyway.



Not the thread topic.



Is this a serious question? Better opportunities? Better pay? Better living conditions?



How?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You mean we're running out of room? That's absurd - it's equally absurd to think that a highly skilled immigrant would require a net draining of resources, given that their economic contribution would presumably be far above the mean anyway. its not absurd. Increased immigration saturates job markets and house markets. This is partly why illegal immigrants live in bulks and squat all over the world.

Its not just one guy doing that lol.


still relevant to my argument of demographics. Were discussing immigration.

okay, that ill admit was ignorance on my part. Having said that, high skilled in poor countries still end up getting shitty jobs in the rich countries. Polish graduates in UK factories or Russian scientists as US janitors for eg.

Stricter immigration prioritises the highly skilled for specific jobs. It benefits those workers. It complicates foreign relations and the un because poor countries still be poor and human rights arguments and global economics. **** the UN.

Originally posted by Its2016
its not absurd. Increased immigration saturates job markets and house markets. This is partly why illegal immigrants live in bulks and squat all over the world.

Its not just one guy doing that lol.


still relevant to my argument of demographics. Were discussing immigration.


We're discussing highly skilled immigration.



This just isn't true, at least not when the free market that you purport to love is able to function. A very high proportion of our universities and technical professionals are immigrants.



That doesn't make sense. How does stricter immigration make it easier for highly skilled immigrants to get in? You're acting like low-skilled and high-skilled immigrants are competing with one another for jobs, which typically isn't true because they work in different fields.



Well, human rights are definitely important, although they aren't the focus of this thread. But the "stricter immigration" you champion hurts highly skilled labor as well, especially given how stupidly designed it is in the status quo.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
We're discussing highly skilled immigration.
ok i seriously doubt any of that is true. stricter prioritises the highly skilled. Im not telling you again. Even if i take out the demographics argument, highly skilled immigrants dont always get high priority jobs. i dont think highly skilled immigrants get the jobs you think they get.

Originally posted by Its2016
i seriously doubt any of that is true.

It's what the data tells us. Thirty six percent of Silicon Valley is foreign born; likewise, all six American nobel prize winners this year were first generation immigrants.



All prioritization would do would be to mitigate its negative effect on the highly skilled; it wouldn't necessarily produce a net positive over the control (having looser policies). If your stricter policy reduces low-skilled immigration by 70% and highly-skilled by 20%, that's still 20% worse for the latter than the status quo. Likewise, the best case scenario is break even. Do you understand what I'm saying?



Which you still haven't articulated on in any capacity, except to blabber about low-skilled immigration which, as you can see, isn't the subject matter.



As usual, you base this completely on your gut. But even if we want to appeal to your intuition, your conclusion still doesn't make any sense. Why would a migrant farm worker be competing with a foreign software engineer for a job at Google? How does this conflict work exactly? Please elaborate.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's what the data tells us. Thirty six percent of Silicon Valley is foreign born; likewise, all six American nobel prize winners this year were first generation immigrants.
not everywhere is silicon valley. no. Limiting immigration means higher standards immigrants must abide by, STEM, for example. This will lower the demographics, which is why i brought them up earlier. noted. Your imagination is wilder than i previously thought. An engineer might end up with a sales assistant job due to being an immigrant. They dont really know the countries theyre in that well. Since low skills saturate the job market for migrants, the highly skilled are overlooked and ignored and blended with the majority of immigrants. Barriers are created and its overall bad for everyone. Kinda like communism.

Originally posted by Its2016
not everywhere is silicon valley.

The implication being that there's something about the Valley that allows high-skilled immigrants to succeed there and nowhere else? Wrong; they dominate graduate programs, science and engineering, nobel prizes (previously mentioned), and a variety of other professions.

Where's your counter-evidence?



You didn't even remotely address what you just quoted. "limiting demographics" may decrease low-skilled immigration, but it won't increase high-skilled immigration. The best case scenario if we assume 100% vetting efficacy is break even. This isn't a matter of discussion - it's literally you not making coherent sense.

And in actuality, the vetting process we have today is horribly inefficient and frequently makes things difficult for highly skilled immigrants based on arbitrary quotas, underlined by the xenophobic sentiments shared by certain Americans such as yourself.



You're so horribly ignorant about the subject matter it's kind of comedic. But what's worse is that I just provided you with a bunch of figures regarding the specific example (.i.e. Silicon Valley), and you proceed to ignore them in favor of your gut. You're willfully ignorant.



You don't have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about. Where are you getting this from? It's possible for some immigrants to under-perform, but the course of American history suggests that the net effect is the opposite. The Manhattan Project was mainly driven by immigrants, as was the NASA space program. Most of our nobel laureates are recent immigrants. And the tech industry loves them, given that they employ them as almost half of their workforce.



Cultural adaptation is usually doable, especially given that there's such a high demand:supply ratio among employers for these employees.

I don't think you even understand your own arguments at this point, since you're basically arguing against yourself; you say that high-skilled labor is good so we should have stricter laws for some reason, but now you're saying that high-skilled labor just ends up in menial jobs anyway and therefore presumably isn't very good. Which is it?




Once again, they're not competing in the same industries. Engineers and migrant farm workers do not go looking for the same work.



Your homespun pseudo-economics is literally the exact opposite of what anyone who has worked for a week in the tech industry, or any other highly technical field, would tell you.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The implication being that there's something about the Valley that allows high-skilled immigrants to succeed there and nowhere else? Wrong; they dominate graduate programs, science and engineering, nobel prizes (previously mentioned), and a variety of other professions.

Where's your counter-evidence? location. But you pretty much made my argument for me. im not american, i do think slack immigration control saturates the job market, and i think high skilled migrants suffer the most from what i already posted. so, we should actively seek out the best globally for the most important projects? Well, i do agree with that. I dont think it applies to high skilled immigrants. both. they look for work, they take what they can get in most places. Not everything is as hunkydory as silicon valley. Not every expert started at the top. Even einstein did shitty work. except were talking about jobs and immigration. Which i dont think you fully understand yourself.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Sin: An anecdotal example would be a friend of mine who is one of the most brilliant software engineers I've ever met, yet is struggling to renew his visa because he didn't make it through the lottery and technically doesn't fall under any of the categories favored by the national interest waiver. Meanwhile, xenophobic, low-IQ trump supporters who wouldn't be able to implement fizz-buzz if they had fifteen years to prepare are waiving their flags and talking about how immigrants are ruining our economy.

Why bring up trump supporters in this for?

Because he's one of those incredibly naive people that feel only Trump supporters have low IQs.

Which actually means his IQ must be in the single digits.

I mean, because it's not like when people say immigrants are ruining the economy they are referring to the ones who come here and take up shitty jobs for much less pay, right? Nor is it the fact that the average illegal takes out more than he puts in. Or that around only half pay income taxes, nope! Those aren't factors.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is there any reason, moral or economic, for having the absurd restrictions on high-skilled immigrants that America does today?

Literally America tries as hard as possible to discourage the world's best and brightest from applying to universities; then, if they do, they try to get them to graduate and leave as rapidly as they can, thus consciously minimizing their economic value to us. Literally certain political segments of the U.S. are trying to go for a brain drain away from the United States. It's kind of comical, actually.

If they're there legally then you usually have to pay them decent wages.

The current laws are probably there to reinforce the trend of underpaid IT-workers from India.

Originally posted by krisblaze
If they're there legally then you usually have to pay them decent wages.

The current laws are probably there to reinforce the trend of underpaid IT-workers from India.

Isn't it also possibly that the number of illegals that continually flood into this country..could have a factor on how easy it is to LEGALLY come here?

But wait no that can't be true, surely nobody would come here illegally if they knew it would have any kind of negative effect on legal citizens.

Originally posted by SquallX
Why bring up trump supporters in this for?

The people with low IQ are the ones voting for a career criminal who Russia paid $145,000,000 for 1/5 of all our Uranium.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Sin: An anecdotal example would be a friend of mine who is one of the most brilliant software engineers I've ever met, yet is struggling to renew his visa because he didn't make it through the lottery and technically doesn't fall under any of the categories favored by the national interest waiver. Meanwhile, xenophobic, low-IQ trump supporters who wouldn't be able to implement fizz-buzz if they had fifteen years to prepare are waiving their flags and talking about how immigrants are ruining our economy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Sin: An anecdotal example would be a friend of mine who is one of the most brilliant software engineers I've ever met, yet is struggling to renew his visa because he didn't make it through the lottery and technically doesn't fall under any of the categories favored by the national interest waiver. Meanwhile, xenophobic, low-IQ trump supporters who wouldn't be able to implement fizz-buzz if they had fifteen years to prepare are waiving their flags and talking about how immigrants are ruining our economy.

Oh ok. Well im not good at quoting statistical analysis
..but speaking from personal experience I've yet to see a highly skilled immigrant fail at getting good employment. For example i work with alot of foreign contractors for the DoD. Mostly linguists and logisticians who help out with the war on terror. These guys make about low six figures to a quarter mill a year easy. Many have multiple degrees and are highly intelligent. The only detractors they say are the xenophobic natures of some Americans they encounter in the workplace. But many chop it up to ignorance as opposed to outright racism.

Im told that any issues with immigration generally affect those who dont have the capital to "buy" their way in.

Originally posted by Surtur
Because he's one of those incredibly naive people that feel only Trump supporters have low IQs.

Which actually means his IQ must be in the single digits.


A statement if P then Q does not necessarily imply the inverse that if not P then not Q. .i.e., saying that Trump supporters tend to have low IQs does not imply that only Trump supporters have low IQs.

Ironically, you try to insult my intelligence while failing logic 101.

Originally posted by Its2016
location. But you pretty much made my argument for me.

Can you state your positions a little more coherently? Saying "location" doesn't work when I presented data pertaining to several locations across the US from universities to tech industries, and moreover, it isn't an active argument for your claim that highly skilled immigrants don't do very well. Where is your active evidence for that?



In another thread, you were complaining about people not responding to you and T.I.'s arguments. One of the reasons why people don't bother is that whenever concepts become remotely complicated, you just decide to bunker down and repeat your original statement over and over again, without responding to outside stimuli. TI, who shares many suspicious similarities with you, often times literally just quotes his original post.

I will repeat my point for the last time to you: low-skilled immigrants are not competing with high-skilled immigrants for the same work! Your claim that the latter are not valued by employers is something you haven't bothered to produce one shred of evidence for; it's especially unbelievable when you consider all of the companies that actively lobby for immigration reform.



So you want to have the best people...but you don't want highly skilled people? What are you talking about?



The reason why I asked the question was that it was a contradiction; you think high-skilled immigrants are valuable, but then say that nobody wants to hire them and they don't end up doing much. Please clarify this discrepancy.



And what they get is still beneficial to the american economy (or else they wouldn't be getting hired), and still not in competition with migrant farm workers.



Do you have any actual data or statistics, or heck, even some vaguely articulated anecdote to support your point? You know, I've been asking for incredibly simple debate requirements like "supporting arguments" for several exchanges now, and you just seem to ignore them. It's kind of surreal how non-responsive to external stimuli you are.

Because it's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to immigration in technical industries, and when I show you the statistics and my own experience operating in this sector, you just shove your fingers in your ear and make a cringe-worthy Einstein analogy.

Originally posted by SquallX
Why bring up trump supporters in this for? based

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A statement if P then Q does not necessarily imply the inverse that if not P then not Q. .i.e., saying that Trump supporters tend to have low IQs does not imply that only Trump supporters have low IQs.

Ironically, you try to insult my intelligence while failing logic 101.

Dude you are rooting for a woman that gave Russia 1/5 of all our Uranium for $145,000,000, explain how you have any room to talk about anyone else but your own inept behavior in condoning this.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is there any reason, moral or economic, for having the absurd restrictions on high-skilled immigrants that America does today?

Literally America tries as hard as possible to discourage the world's best and brightest from applying to universities; then, if they do, they try to get them to graduate and leave as rapidly as they can, thus consciously minimizing their economic value to us. Literally certain political segments of the U.S. are trying to go for a brain drain away from the United States. It's kind of comical, actually.

I don't mean to come down on your so hard but you're atrociously wrong. You could not have it more opposite.

It is extremely easy to get a green card if you have a masters or doctorates degree. There are special provisions on the applications for it. As long as you can demonstrate and the USCIS can verify it, you'll get a green card.



There are other provisions for people who own or have businesses. Professionals, if you will.

And to get into the US to go to school is incredibly easy as well. Let me put it this way, you can easily get approved to go to 12 years of school (to become an MD) but your parents will get rejected to come visit for just 2 weeks.



Where did you get your information from? I got my information from having gone through this very situation with my GF and her family.




I think we should relax immigration laws in the US, though. It takes far too long to become a citizen. And it is too difficult and long to get a green card.

I'm just very very confused that anyone, even if they aren't from this country, could think there are people that are saying they have issues with HIGHLY SKILLED workers coming into this country legally.

I've never once heard someone go "those f*cking immigrant scientists!". No, the common rhetoric for this bullshit is "they do the jobs most don't want to do". We are talking picking fruit, yard work, and shit like that. Physical labor, not friggin engineers and physicists and any of that other shit.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm just very very confused that anyone, even if they aren't from this country, could think there are people that are saying they have issues with HIGHLY SKILLED workers coming into this country legally.

I've never once heard someone go "those f*cking immigrant scientists!". No, the common rhetoric for this bullshit is "they do the jobs most don't want to do". We are talking picking fruit, yard work, and shit like that. Physical labor, not friggin engineers and physicists and any of that other shit.

OP is woefully incorrect in his premise. He has it opposite. I'm not sure how that happened.

Here are temporary visa categories:
https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/employment/temporary.html


Keep your head up, pay your taxes, and bide your time...then you can upgrade to permanent residency.



Granted, I think these waiting periods are far too long.

Immigrants have it rough. Theyre the first to sign up for shitty labour just to make a good impression. Nice people too. But even they understand saturated job markets and how it looks bad for them. They also hate drug dealers and terrorists like every day normal people. And theye not scientists. Kek.

Stupid scientists, taking all the silicon valley positions. Why dont they **** off back to Mexico!

Originally posted by dadudemon
It is extremely easy to get a green card if you have a masters or doctorates degree. There are special provisions on the applications for it. As long as you can demonstrate and the USCIS can verify it, you'll get a green card.


1. Being "highly skilled" =/= having a higher degree; there are plenty of the former who do not fall under the latter. Indeed, I know people who fall under the former (as in, taking shots at the IMO) but have to do the latter, even though it provides little direct value to their particular profession, just so they can have a shot at a green card.

2. I would love to see evidence for your claim that it's "extremely easy" to get a green card with a higher degree. Relative to someone else? Sure. But in absolute terms, every single person I know in that category has taken at least five years to receive one, even if they obtained a national interest waiver.

3. It takes several more years to get citizenship, which is necessary to work for various federal agencies.



Yes, this is true; but once you graduate, it's not guaranteed that your visa will be extended, even if you are, say, a high-profile engineer at a very prominent company. You know, to speak for some members of my social circle.



How long did it take them to get their green cards?



But then you're actually agreeing with me...

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm just very very confused that anyone, even if they aren't from this country, could think there are people that are saying they have issues with HIGHLY SKILLED workers coming into this country legally.

I've never once heard someone go "those f*cking immigrant scientists!". No, the common rhetoric for this bullshit is "they do the jobs most don't want to do". We are talking picking fruit, yard work, and shit like that. Physical labor, not friggin engineers and physicists and any of that other shit.

Do you wanna bet? If I can produce video of prominent politicians saying otherwise, you leave these forums forever?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Do you wanna bet? If I can produce video of prominent politicians saying otherwise, you leave these forums forever?

What's with you and gambling? Get that shit under control. But alas: I wasn't talking about specifically just politicians there champ. You say Trump supporters are always b*tching about them ruining stuff, and I am telling you that most of the time they aren't talking about the kind of immigrants you are talking about.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Do you wanna bet? If I can produce video of prominent politicians saying otherwise, you leave these forums forever?

#triggered

Well you obviously aren't confident in your own claim, since now you're refusing to take the bet; in either case, your post didn't mention Trump supporters at all, it just mentioned "anyone", so yeah, I am a "champ" next to you, clearly.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well you obviously aren't confident in your own claim, since now you're refusing to take the bet; in either case, your post didn't mention Trump supporters at all, it just mentioned "anyone", so yeah, I am a "champ" next to you, clearly.

Just wow, I can see why someone would think you're a teenager. Okay, so check this out: this entire thing began with me commenting to someone who was talking about you knocking Trump supporters.

Which you said they constantly whine about immigrants hurting the economy.

I am telling you most of the time they are not complaining about what you are trying to imply.

Originally posted by Surtur
Just wow, I can see why someone would think you're a teenager. Okay, so check this out: this entire thing began with me commenting to someone who was talking about you knocking Trump supporters.

Which you said they constantly whine about immigrants hurting the economy.

I made a post in the first page saying that, yes, but this chain was from one post of yours in the second page that didn't reference the first one at all, lmao.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I made a post in the first page saying that, yes, but this chain was from one post of yours in the second page that didn't reference the first one at all, lmao.

But I literally made a post readdressing the issue. No I didn't quote it, but I once again began talking about the notion that people seem to be complaining about these types. I figured someone as intelligent as you could infer what I was talking about.

This isn't what a majority of people complain over. If you misunderstood me, I have now cleared that up for you.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well you obviously aren't confident in your own claim, since now you're refusing to take the bet; in either case, your post didn't mention Trump supporters at all, it just mentioned "anyone", so yeah, I am a "champ" next to you, clearly.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/vk7VesvyZEwuI/200_s.gif
#triggered

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm just very very confused that anyone, even if they aren't from this country, could think there are people that are saying they have issues with HIGHLY SKILLED workers coming into this country legally.

I've never once heard someone go "those f*cking immigrant scientists!". No, the common rhetoric for this bullshit is "they do the jobs most don't want to do". We are talking picking fruit, yard work, and shit like that. Physical labor, not friggin engineers and physicists and any of that other shit.

Why would Americans complain about immigrants picking fruit, emotying2trash and cutting lawns when those are jobs Americans wont do?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Why would Americans complain about immigrants picking fruit, emotying2trash and cutting lawns when those are jobs Americans wont do?

But that is just it: who decided those were jobs they won't do? I know PLENTY of legal people who do this kind of shit.

It's asinine, and it's a god damn insult to actual Americans who want to work hard. People don't mind picking fruit, they just don't want to do so at shit wages because the employers have the option to hire illegals and pay *them* shit wages.

So that is the type of people they are talking about though most of the time when they complain. Even if you falsely believe most Americans do not want to do these things, they absolutely are not(a majority of the time) complaining about friggin software engineers and shit.

Lower wage and saturation of competition makes the job shittier and undesirable. The immigrants are whats causing this.

Come on.

Originally posted by Surtur
But that is just it: who decided those were jobs they won't do? I know PLENTY of legal people who do this kind of shit.

It's just some ridiculous myth that is blindly perpetuated here.

Same shit with immigrants working in the service industry because "nobody wants those jobs" and not because they can get away with paying half of what a legal citizen would ask.

Originally posted by Surtur
But that is just it: who decided those were jobs they won't do? I know PLENTY of legal people who do this kind of shit.

It's asinine, and it's a god damn insult to actual Americans who want to work hard. People don't mind picking fruit, they just don't want to do so at shit wages because the employers have the option to hire illegals and pay *them* shit wages.

So that is the type of people they are talking about though most of the time when they complain. Even if you falsely believe most Americans do not want to do these things, they absolutely are not(a majority of the time) complaining about friggin software engineers and shit.

Really? They must lack higher education. Ive rarely encountered Americans who are willing to do that sort of menial labor. Especially if they are educated. The work to income ratio is too vast.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Really? They must lack higher education. Ive rarely encountered Americans who are willing to do that sort of menial labor. Especially if they are educated. The work to income ratio is too vast.

There are plenty of people who don't have college educations that are willing to do hard work. My father had no problem working in freezing conditions every day of his life doing physical labor. He had to wear a special suit just to work, that is how cold it was(he worked in freezers in terms of food storage, etc.)

Let me tell you something, the pay isn't great, the hours aren't great, but he did it.

I know others who literally shovel shit for a living. Why? Because it pays at least a minimum wage as opposed to being able to pay someone under the table.

Not everyone is highly educated, but I have rarely met an individual just deem a job unworthy of them. It's because they have to compete with others who work illegally and thus have no choice but to take below minimum wage.

I won't say it never happens, but I cannot imagine where this myth came from. Well I guess I do know, it was from people trying to make up excuses for why illegal immigrants are good.

Originally posted by Surtur
There are plenty of people who don't have college educations that are willing to do hard work. My father had no problem working in freezing conditions every day of his life doing physical labor. He had to wear a special suit just to work, that is how cold it was(he worked in freezers in terms of food storage, etc.)

Let me tell you something, the pay isn't great, the hours aren't great, but he did it.

I know others who literally shovel shit for a living. Why? Because it pays at least a minimum wage as opposed to being able to pay someone under the table.

Not everyone is highly educated, but I have rarely met an individual just deem a job unworthy of them. It's because they have to compete with others who work illegally and thus have no choice but to take below minimum wage.

I won't say it never happens, but I cannot imagine where this myth came from. Well I guess I do know, it was from people trying to make up excuses for why illegal immigrants are good.

I get that. But y not go after the employers? If they're the ones required to pay fair wages yet choose not to do so wouldn't attacking the source of the problem make more progress

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I get that. But y not go after the employers? If they're the ones required to pay fair wages yet choose not to do so wouldn't attacking the source of the problem make more progress

They need to get both, but the employer definitely needs to pay.

Originally posted by krisblaze
They need to get both, but the employer definitely needs to pay.

True. I feel like both are at fault. Moreso on the employers who hire illegal immigrants. If businesses were shuttered and fines imposed then that would solve that problem although it wouldnt insure citizens get those jobs

Originally posted by Sin I AM
True. I feel like both are at fault. Moreso on the employers who hire illegal immigrants. If businesses were shuttered and fines imposed then that would solve that problem although it wouldnt insure citizens get those jobs

They do get fines, but probably minor ones...

Isn't that always the case with white collar criminals? They get a fine equal to a fraction of the sum they made off with.....

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I get that. But y not go after the employers? If they're the ones required to pay fair wages yet choose not to do so wouldn't attacking the source of the problem make more progress

I agree completely, we do need to go after the employers. We need to make it so it isn't beneficial to hire illegal labor. I'll gladly pay a bit more for some items.

But my point is..this person was saying all Trump supporters complain about these immigrants hurting the economy, but I was simply saying most of the time they aren't shaking their fists at software engineers and stuff like that.

But just reading the OP again it seems like this was more or less a bait thread that we both have been drawn into.

99 percent of threads in the gdf are bait so that goes without saying. Honestly im not so sure Americans know what they want. If we nixed all migrant workers and forced employers to pay higher wages then prices for services will skyrocket. We dont want tp be dependent on foreign oil yet cringe at using our own reserves. All cannot be pleased

Originally posted by Sin I AM
99 percent of threads in the gdf are bait so that goes without saying. Honestly im not so sure Americans know what they want. If we nixed all migrant workers and forced employers to pay higher wages then prices for services will skyrocket. We dont want tp be dependent on foreign oil yet cringe at using our own reserves. All cannot be pleased

Well yeah we would have to take a hit, but we did this to ourselves. We should have never relied on illegal labor. The penalties should be harsh. Fines are just part of the punishment, give these employers actual jail time for this.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Being "highly skilled" =/= having a higher degree; there are plenty of the former who do not fall under the latter. Indeed, I know people who fall under the former (as in, taking shots at the IMO) but have to do the latter, even though it provides little direct value to their particular profession, just so they can have a shot at a green card.

You're incorrect. It literally says, right here that they are equivalent:

H-1B: Person in Specialty Occupation:

To work in a specialty occupation. Requires a higher education degree or its equivalent. Includes fashion models of distinguished merit and ability and government-to-government research and development, or co-production projects administered by the Department of Defense.

https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/employment/temporary.html

Emphasis mine, of course.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
2. I would love to see evidence for your claim that it's "extremely easy" to get a green card with a higher degree. Relative to someone else? Sure. But in absolute terms, every single person I know in that category has taken at least five years to receive one, even if they obtained a national interest waiver.


Evidence? Okay, I will provide some very solid evidence for you in a bit. But first, let's talk about your lack of evidence: the same applies to you. I would like to see your evidence that it is extremely difficult to get a visa on the categories you're concerned about.

Since I literally came from over a decade working in the government sector, I have hundreds of examples, some of them my direct employees (and a couple actually got their citizenships while in my direct employ). Your evidence seems to be an anecdote so my hundreds of anecdotes seem to prove how very easy it is for highly educated/highly skilled workers to get a visa and work in the US. Those numbers would be in the thousands if you include the temporary contracts (many British and Scottish experts would work for us in short 6-12 month contracts...great people, miss some of them). Still further than that, my direct experience in dozens of cases trying to get talent filled into contracts is about 2 months wait time and as fast as 6 weeks. But we were told that 6 weeks is for the frequent fliers who still had active security clearances (yeah...my situation may be worse than normal because they had to get federal security clearances before they started working on the contracts).

But here is your evidence:

http://faq.visapro.com/h1b-visa-faq6.asp

"The H1B processing time varies because all cases are different. Generally it takes between three to six months to process an H-1B visa. You must wait at least two weeks after you send in your application for a receipt from the USCIS and another two weeks before you call the USCIS to check the status."

Again, emphasis mine.

And the student visas get processed even faster especially if the student is good and stayed out of trouble in their home country. It took a few weeks for my GFs and her brother's to get through, for example.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
3. It takes several more years to get citizenship, which is necessary to work for various federal agencies.


We don't disagree, here. I agree that it takes too long. I don't see a justification for the extreme waiting periods.


Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yes, this is true; but once you graduate, it's not guaranteed that your visa will be extended, even if you are, say, a high-profile engineer at a very prominent company. You know, to speak for some members of my social circle.

You are definitely correct. But any decent university will already have someone assigned to get your a student worker status a year or two before you are done and they will also place you into employers who know how to work with highly skilled and/or educated students so that if they choose to apply for a greencard, it is easier on all parties involved.

Also, extending a student visa after you graduate and are working is literally the wrong thing to do. It should definitely get denied. You're no longer a student. They would need to submit a change in status form and apply for the H1B status and/or have their employer sponsor them for their greencard.

If you think about this, it should be logical. If you graduate college and you're now working in your field of study...you are no longer a student: you are a worker. If your visa was approved to be a student, it should be obvious that it is not appropriate to now overstay your reason for approval. There are clear timeframes you communicate to USCIS when you get the student visa and approval is dependent upon the reasons and timeframes communicated.



Originally posted by The Ellimist
How long did it take them to get their green cards?

That depends on what kind of greencard that was applied for. Between 4-6 months, usually. The marriage greencard is different than the worker greencard which is also different from a refugee greencard.

https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-through-refugee-or-asylee-status/green-card-refugee

And processing times for each category can be different from each other.



Originally posted by The Ellimist
But then you're actually agreeing with me...

I'm not. Go back and read your OP to see what I'm disagreeing with.

the high skilled ones are generally here legally

How did the usa get to the point where poor mexicans could jump the border and work shitty wages and no one bats an eyelid? How did mexico get so shit? This genuinely confuses me.

I believe Mexico is shit because a lot of people would rather work in the US than rebuild their own country. The high skilled immigrants really hurt their native countries because they're sorely needed.

On the other hand you have to understand why they would rater emigrate than remain put. It's not just a matter of salary but also safety.

Immigrants from India are the exception, however, as the country barely has the infrastructure to support 1/3rd of its population and many people are locked out of the workforce due to nepotism, regardless of their education.

Okay, that sounds intelligent.

How involved are the drug cartels in Mexico? I hear theyre involved a lot.

Originally posted by Its2016
How did the usa get to the point where poor mexicans could jump the border and work shitty wages and no one bats an eyelid? How did mexico get so shit? This genuinely confuses me.

The most hilarious thing of all is Mexico's own laws about illegals and legal immigrants, which are actually much more harsh than our own.

We're basically expected to be the worlds daycare center.

Our own system is a joke. This one sheriff who is sheriff of a town very near the border has had the same illegals in his jails..sometimes 20-30 times lol. They just keep coming back.

Build wal. Where mah country gown?

Mexico has a wall on its southern border because central america is ****ed. Honduras especially.

I love peoples reactions when i say Trumps going to build a wall with a ****ing train on it.
"What? A train? Thats actually pretty clever"

Yes it is. Build a ****ing wall!

CNN has reported that walls just help terrorists though. So I guess that settles that.

CNN has taught me so much about the world. Most of it wrong, but still..quantity over quality I guess.

Originally posted by Surtur
CNN has reported that walls just help terrorists though. So I guess that settles that.

CNN has taught me so much about the world. Most of it wrong, but still..quantity over quality I guess. CNN has taught me they are working for constant denial of reality. I never thought theyd be so dumb at times, but they impress me everytime. I guess cable viewers are dumb? Recluses? Cnn is really bad, ill be honest. Mostly because it has so much undeserved credibility.

And will literally report trump having no chance while trump supporters chant "lock her up" with trump signs in the background. Theyre actually helping trump.

I immensely enjoyed the CNN series that focused on the 1960's and then 70's, and in the latest season the 80's. It's very well done. It's almost like they have an excellent grip on the past, but a poor grasp of the present.

But then, that show had a lot of people normally not involved with CNN, and was also produced by Tom Hanks. Hanks is great with history.