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Who wins?

Derp :/

Luke loses badly.

Luke wins easily.

Luke.

Muur easily.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Muur easily.

Luke wins feat-wise.

Karness (probably) wins holistically.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Muur easily.

Luke wins but with difficulty.

So is anyone gonna make an argument for either side?

Because I don't got shit.

Luke. Numbers are overrated.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Luke wins feat-wise.

Karness (probably) wins holistically.

Holistically Luke wins even more..

4 combatants on this level are just too much.


...except for Valkorion obviously.

Originally posted by Nephthys
4 combatants on this level are just too much.


On what level? What feats does Murr have to put him anywhere near Luke's level? The likes of Dooku are like ragdoll material to PT-era Sidious, and Dooku's feats and accolades far outstrip Murr's.

Murr is better than a diseased Krayt and shadow of Anakin, who at the time was a sub-Kenobi phag.

Meanwhile, Luke is dominating beings noticeably ahead of Vader and performing mountain level TK feats, a substantial amount of time pre-prime.

He wins this.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
On what level? What feats does Murr have to put him anywhere near Luke's level? The likes of Dooku are like ragdoll material to PT-era Sidious, and Dooku's feats and accolades far outstrip Murr's.

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4589297-muurvskrayt2.jpg

http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4589299-muurvskrayt3.jpg

Feats for Vong Krayt?

Apparently there's some scaling that makes him impressive. I'm more impressed that he also threw back the surrounding half a dozen force users.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Apparently there's some scaling that makes him impressive.

mmm To my knowledge, Vong Krayt's only real feat is beating up four featless imperial knights.

Vong Krayt is insanely powerful via scaling, lmao.

What scaling?

The fact he vastly outstrips everyone in Sith Order.

BTW, I could present similar evidence that Palpatine >>> Yoda and Yoda >>> Palpatine...

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The fact he vastly outstrips everyone in Sith Order.

Like...Darth Nihl?

He's referring mostly to two Sith who after his death moved an enormous satellite dish.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He's referring mostly to two Sith who after his death moved an enormous satellite dish.

Like...sub-Kota tier?

Karness Murr is better than every version of Vader until his supporters can proove that his "powar growth" fills the gap. Vader here has already got his best TK feat around the time Karness' spirit came to visit him - collapsing the cathedral without life support and being exhausted. Still, I'd say Luke has a chance when you consider his own feats.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Like...sub-Kota tier?

Nah. The satellite was pretty huge.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Karness Murr is better than every version of Vader until his supporters can proove that his "powar growth" fills the gap.

Vader's potential, which even after Mustafar is enormous (80-100% of Sidious's depending on which source you use), combined with the fact that he was literally a few weeks from a cataclysmic injury when he encountered Murr, years of combat experience and study of the dark side, and at least two explicit mentions of his power having considerably increased (ESB and RotJ), make it more likely than not that he's surpassed Murr, given that beyond that singular example, Vader's feats and accolades are far superior, as would his potential + years to grow would imply.

But it's convenient to try to shift the burden of proof to Vader supporters to "prove" that his power growth "fills the gaps", rather than phrasing it for Murr supporters to "prove" that his power advantage outstrips said power growth. The better standard here is preponderance of evidence, which there clearly is.



His best TK feat is choking Starkiller.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
His best TK feat is choking Starkiller.

To be fair, that didn't actually occur anywhere outside a game cut scene contradicted by its other versions.

Vong Krayt might be > Prime Vader, imo. But that doesn't mean Luke wouldn't beat four Muurs, despite all of them being better than Vong Krayt.

Originally posted by Azronger
Vong Krayt might be > Prime Vader, imo.

Why do you think so?

Azronger has trouble actually answering questions.

I am traveling rite now. I don't have time to write poetry or give you quick responses, but i'll try my best

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vader's potential, which even after Mustafar is enormous (80-100% of Sidious's depending on which source you use)

The same guy who gave us Vader's potential estimation also implied he was a lesser fighter than every person featured in the Phantom Menace - this would be considering ROTJ. This also brings to mind a conversation regarding Lucas' creative authority in Legends/canon since he sold the franchise to the white slavers. If the Holocron system no longer applies, than Lucas' credibility is somewhat diminished - especially considering Legends content.



Which would make a huge difference if some of his appendages were removed or eventually made unnecessary, they weren't. The only thing you can really vouch for is Vader getting used to the suit in terms of manoeuvrability, otherwise, he's still needs the same external supports to breath/function and that pretty much remains unchanged - as does his diminished potential. But in regards to "raw power", I don't see much of a difference. A lot of his best feats, in the department of telekinesis at least (which is essentially a red note of raw unfettered power), happen in 19 BBY. The cathedral feat being one of, if not his most notable, especially when you consider Vader's condition.



Yes, i know that Vader was given a paltry growth in 'power' iterated in his own thoughts. the problem is we're not given an idea how far the gap between himself is between his confrontation with Murr (0.1 %? 10 %? 200 %?). I will admit, his lightsaber technique has had several annotations surrounding them, but in regards to power - and the only expression that has ever mattered to you, telekinetic power, the discrepancy in feats, is basically nil. If we want to talk about lightsabers, and find some measuring stick between the two, than Karness should be quite a bit ahead of the Kenobi Hett faced, who is far less rusty that Vader's duelling partner in a New Hope.



Correction, Vader has more feats and accolades. Enlightenment, the only time Murr has ever been compared to modern characters, was in excerpts to show how much better he was than everyone, which includes Vader.



It's convenient because no such 'proof' that Vader has surpassed Murr has been given. This doesn't even mention how much more diminished Karness is in 'spirit mode' compared to his flesh and bone self. That gap is probably bigger than the basically non-existent power growth Vader transcends.



The only amounting evidence that favours some miraculous transformation, is confined to skill with a lightsaber. But even then, Karness can be scaled as Vader's superior in that regard. He was in a lesser condition against Vong Krayt, and still managed to defeat a guy who had, 100 hundred years earlier, given Kenobi a rather stellar battle before defeating 1000's of enemies and perfecting his skill. Unless, what...? You wanna tell me that Krayt hasn't surpassed Kenobi in that time-gap? In which case, any argument attempting to exaggerate Vader's "power growth" instantly looses credibility.



And what is that suppose to tell me? You do realise the only version of the game depicting this, also has Starkiller breaking out of the choke (presumably when he tried to) only to rag doll Vader himself?

Wredd doing sh!t after Krayt's death applies to a quote about Krayt? Also, that quote was retconned the day Wyyrlok the III contended with Krayt.

Originally posted by MythLord
Wredd doing sh!t after Krayt's death applies to a quote about Krayt? Also, that quote was retconned the day Wyyrlok the III contended with Krayt.

Apparently, though I've questioned this logic before as well.

All things being equal though if we're going to say this doesn't apply to Krayt we can't say K'Kruhk's feat applies to Dooku either.

Also we don't know if Krayt allowed Wyyr to contend only to humiliate him later on or if Wyyr really did.

Why not? K'kruhk performed the feat a few months after he got dominated by Vos, who's inferior to Asajj, who got one-shotted by Tyranus.

Even if we're assuming he grew considerably -- which I doubt -- he'd still be pretty low on the spectrum in comparison to Dooku; enough for Tyranus to ragdoll him.

Doesn't seem like something Krayt would do.

Anyways, the quote should apply to Wredd, I'm just noting Krayt isn't far above every other Sith in the Order since Wyyrlok gave him some grief.

Because it occurs after and logically the Sith who moved that satellite are far inferior to Vong Krayt just like K'Kruhk is far inferior to Dooku. You can't apply logic to one scenario but ignore it in another to suit your bias Wolf.

Originally posted by MythLord
since Wyyrlok gave him some grief.

I honestly don't think he did. Krayt countered every single attempt by Wyyr in a similar manner to how Yoda handled Dooku. He was playing with him.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The same guy who gave us Vader's potential estimation also implied he was a lesser fighter than every person featured in the Phantom Menace - this would be considering ROTJ. This also brings to mind a conversation regarding Lucas' creative authority in Legends/canon since he sold the franchise to the white slavers. If the Holocron system no longer applies, than Lucas' credibility is somewhat diminished - especially considering Legends content.


That Lucas, or the continuity as a whole, changes his mind on some issues doesn't invalidate every single statement of his by transitive property, or else we should invalidate all novels because the RotJ adaptation claims Ben Lars is Obi Wan's brother.

But even if we assume for the sake of argument that Lucas's word no longer counts just because Disney now owns the franchise (even though all of the movies he produced and directed mysteriously still do), we still know as a general principle that Force users aren't at their peak in their twenties, which Vader at this point was, plus having been seriously maimed and put into a suit he's entirely unfamiliar with, along with all of his psychological issues.



Nope. The RotS novelization describes Vader's condition of being a shadow of his former self, having lost so much power that he can only get a faint glimpse of who he once was. A few weeks doesn't change that.



And via an external source for the ESB claim.



This ambiguity works both ways, so we defer to the rest of the body of evidence, which is reflected in Vader's superior feats and accolades.



What Murr telekinetic feats are you referring to?



That's not really what a measuring stick is, given that Murr and Obi Wan never met. We just know that Vader has better accolades as a duelist, and has better feats in technical prowess (constructing his own functioning style within weeks of being crippled, being considered one of the best duelists ever, etc.) combined with having been competitive in an era with far superior saber duelists, more years of cumulative dueling knowledge, and almost certainly more raw power given his apparent potential.



Being better than a near-death Krayt and a weeks-from-Mustafar Vader does not impress me as much as Vader being more powerful than Galen Marek, who was written to be "one of the most powerful Force users ever" and a reflection of what Luke would've been had he trained under Vader, or being considered far more powerful than Kar Vastor, who was far stronger than Mace Windu, or being considered above the likes of Gethzerion.



You think twenty years of someone in their twenties, having recently started from scratch, is "non-existent", even when it's stated outright that he grows considerably stronger in just the months between ANH and ESB, then in the months between ESB and RotJ, and presumably between TFU and TFUII (given his losing to Marek but superiority to Starkiller)?

And where's the evidence that Murr is weaker as a spirit? Oh, right - you just presume this from beings like Exar being mentioned in a few sources to be weaker. .i.e. far less support than that which goes for Vader.



Where did you get the word "miraculous" from? Your incredulity over the idea that one of the most powerful Force users ever would improve in twenty years is hilariously forced and unbelievable.



No, I'll tell you that Krayt was literally dying from the terminal illness of being infested by giant spikes.



So? The point is that he was on even grounds with Galen Marek, and later superior to Starkiller (as the writers confirm, he was letting Starkiller win, and would've easily beaten him otherwise), and then grows more powerful through to RotJ; this means that he is more powerful than a guy who can blow apart frigates.

Murr loses.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why do you think so?

That's a thread for another time, but in short, I believe him to be a superior duelist based on his Imperial Knight feat and scaling from Kenobi, and a superior Force user (not necessarily more powerful, just more effective) with his vide variety of powers like lightning, drain, TP etc. that are all effective on Vader.

Originally posted by Azronger
That's a thread for another time, but in short, I believe him to be a superior duelist based on his Imperial Knight feat and scaling from Kenobi, and a superior Force user (not necessarily more powerful, just more effective) with his vide variety of powers like lightning, drain, TP etc. that are all effective on Vader. Kenobi was holding back, while Hett had the environment advantage.

The Vong Krayt that Murr - who was weakened in Celeste Morn's body - fought against, shits on all every character Vader has ever come across, including Galen Marek, who gets slapped by shadowgaurds, Proxy modules and literal fodder : Rham Kota - defeated by Boba Fett, Shaak Ti - stomped by Grievous twice and other no names such as Maris brood and Paratus. If we're going by the Wii version - which you have included as evidence - then that list includes several non Force sensitives as well as a simulation of Darth Desolus. If Galen was supposed to be one of the most powerful Force users ever, then they should have made some clear accolade in the relevant material, seen as there is nothing addressing him in that manner, it comes under the realm of non-canon statements and interpation. Sure, Galen has good feats in TK, but so does weeks-from-Mustafa Vader. Namely, the Cathedral feat. Which considering the condition Vader was in, is probably better than anything Galen has done. I'm going of the notion that the cathedral in question is probably far bigger than most modern cathedrals - 150 meters.



Where ?



Are we still peddling this dead quote?



Starting from scratch is misleading. He lost a considerable amount of potential and had to rebuild his lightsaber technique. Other than that, his Force abilties don't seem to have improved significantly. What ever knowledge he wasn't enough for him to overpower anyone of note.



An accolade, that as far as I recall, is directly in reference to his lightsaber prowess. Which I never denied improved. Although his duelling track reccord is pretty shit throughout his entire career, including the end of it, so I'm not holding my breath to how much of an improvement this is.



Again, Vader feeling more powerful than ever questions wether he grew at all, or whether it's a case of cognitive dissonance. I still don't see why this gap is significant enough to be mentioned. There is very little to support it considering he lost against Luke - who is really the person who should be credited with a huge upgrade.



him loosing to both Starkiller's doesn't signify improvement.

So? The point is that he was on even grounds with Galen Marek, and later superior to Starkiller

(as the writers confirm, he was letting Starkiller win, and would've easily beaten him otherwise),

I don't remember Sam Witwer being the writer for TFUII? Are you claiming that he's sharing the views of other people on the matter? Another thorny issue is that not all stories have a single creator, and the collaborators may not actually agree with interpretations of their story that weren't made explicit in the work. In this case, there are multiple "creators" giving potentially contradictory explanations, so whose word is to be considered correct? Likewise, in many cases the writers of a story are not the copyright holders, meaning that they're not the highest authorities on its meaning even if you do subscribe to the Word of God theory. If a work has more than one creator and they disagree with each other on a crucial point, you'll likely see fans embrace conflicting statements. What happens when multiple fans are equipped with the statements of different voice actors? What happens when one Word turns out to be more ridiculous than expected? Can you provide evidence of a more canonical note?



Vader lost to a Starkiller who blew apart a third of a frigate and Karness Murr, as a spectre, with a limited ability to effect the physical realm, is more powerful than a guy who blew apart a structure bigger than that, while on his deathbed. Murr wins.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Because it occurs after and logically the Sith who moved that satellite are far inferior to Vong Krayt just like K'Kruhk is far inferior to Dooku. You can't apply logic to one scenario but ignore it in another to suit your bias Wolf.

Wut now? They aren't the same things, since with K'kruhk we see him getting dominated by a person who Dooku can make a toy out of, whereas Krayt doesn't have a domination stream, he has an accolade that refers to his time.

K'kruhks power growth would've been negligable in comparison to how much of a gap there is between him and Tyranus. Anyways, I already said the quote can apply to whats-his-face, since he's technically part of the Legacy era.

Originally posted by MythLord
Wredd doing sh!t after Krayt's death applies to a quote about Krayt? Also, that quote was retconned the day Wyyrlok the III contended with Krayt.

Wyyrlok's attacks being batted aside doesn't exactly constitute contention.

Luke.