Bloodlusted non-jobbing Luke vs Valkorion, Dread Masters, Revan, Vaylin, and Arcann

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Deronn_solo
All at their unamped peaks, morals off, and bloousted.

Can Luke use the Az Force to win?

Nephthys
no

Beniboybling
Luke ragdolls.

Deronn_solo
What lightning feats Valkorion have that supersedes one shotting Vong with Emerald Judgment?

Beniboybling
Bending Tol Braga's lightsaber by a millimeter?

Geistalt
Full-Power Luke = 2 * Darth Sidious

Darth Sidious > Dread Masters + Revan + Vaylin + Arcann

Luke wins.

DarthAnt66
Team two destroys.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bending Tol Braga's lightsaber by a millimeter?

thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
But in all seriousness.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Team two destroys.

darthbane77
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Team two destroys.

GM Yoda
Team 2 annihilates.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
^

Raptor22
Lukes not winning this.

The Ellimist
Um, guys...

This is a bloodlusted, non jobbing Luke. Let that sink in for a moment.

He wins...

Beniboybling
If bloodlusted is simply to mean fully-amped/unfettered, as opposed to enraged, the yeah, Luke could easily slip into Oneness and pwn.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Um, guys...

This is a bloodlusted, non jobbing Luke. Let that sink in for a moment.

He wins...

Lmao.

Geistalt
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Um, guys...

This is a bloodlusted, non jobbing Luke. Let that sink in for a moment.

He wins... Yeah; for the record, I was joking... so, no.

Tondemonai
Team 2. Honestly, I see him getting TP'd. If Luke was in Oneness from the start, I could see him pulling a win, but probably not.

S_W_LeGenD
Team 2 play football with Luke Skywalker's corpse after the battle.

Azronger
Luke stomps everyone except Valkorion and then kills him in a one-sided fight.

Trocity
Vast majority of team 2 gets disintegrated from the energies emitted from Luke powering up to Super Saiyan Oneness. Valkorion then gets blitzed/pinned to the ground with a slight gesture.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Azronger
Luke stomps everyone except Valkorion and then kills him in a one-sided fight.

Deronn_solo
Luke can't go Oneness here, babes. smile

Azronger
He still wins.

Deronn_solo
lal.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Luke can't go Oneness here, babes. smile gross

Ursumeles
He kills all but Revan and Valk in one attack, ragdolls Revan after that and beats Valky then.

RHaggis
With no oneness, there is no way Luke is winning.

The Ellimist
Like none of Valkorion's teammates except for Revan matter. Wtf are the dread masters going to do? Arcann and Vaylin are B-team class to Luke.

DarthAnt66
The Dread Masters can teleport to the other side of the world and assault Luke with telepathy as Valkorion, Revan, Vaylin, and Arcann combat Luke.

Beniboybling
lolololol

The Ellimist
Their telepathy wouldn't do anything, and Arcann and Vaylin are fodder.

DarthAnt66
Their telepathy would, and they're not.

Tondemonai
When reading over this again, Valkorion and DM's together make Luke **** Jaina for their entertainment.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Their telepathy would,

They're insignificant next to even novel Vitiate; telepathy usually requires a substantial power gap to be effective.



Arcann literally got one-shotted by Valkorion.

Tondemonai
Originally posted by The Ellimist
They're insignificant next to even novel Vitiate; telepathy usually requires a substantial power gap to be effective.

Arguably



Five years before KOTFE thumb up

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Tondemonai
When reading over this again, Valkorion and DM's together make Luke **** Jaina for their entertainment.
Lol, no.

MythLord
Luke blitzes Arcann and Vaylin, then proceeds to hold down the Dreadmasters to a chair while deflecting Valkorion's lightning and shooting mountain busting TK at Revan.

Ursumeles
Up

Revan solo's.

Seriously, Luke still rapes

Azronger
Luke still crushes.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by eZpZ LmSqZ
At least add Bane to Luke's team, that way Valkorion's team might actually stand a chance.
thumb up

SunRazer
If he's going all-out, I don't see why Luke's initial TK blast wouldn't eliminate everyone except for Valkorion and Revan. And he wins the ensuing fight.

UCanShootMyNova
Valkorian.

Ursumeles

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Team, rofl.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Team, rofl.
No, rofl.

Bar Revan and Valk, they aren't more compared to Luke, than the B-Team to Sidious.
Luke then ragdolls Revan, and beats Vlkorion.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And even a B teamer was able to survive for a short time against Sidious with the likes of Windu there. There's literally 10 immensely powerful combatants here that can smash Luke with their force powers.

And I don't recall bloodlusted Luke oneshotting even the likes of Caedus, rofl.

Azronger
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And even a B teamer was able to survive for a short time against Sidious with the likes of Windu there. There's literally 10 immensely powerful combatants here that can smash Luke with their force powers.

FotJ Luke >>> RotS Sidious in saber combat.

And nobody is smashing Luke with the Force. He walks through their attacks.



Good for Caedus, then.

Deronn_solo
Luke isn't walking through Valkorion's Lightning, or the Dread's TP, lal.

Neither is he immune to the effects of drain.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Azronger
FotJ Luke >>> RotS Sidious in saber combat.

He walks through their attacks.
Lmao wut

The Ellimist
Luke wins. Team 2's numbers are deceptive; the likes of Arcann, Vaylin and "the dread masters" are irrelevant to the fight anyway.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Azronger
FotJ Luke >>> RotS Sidious in saber combat.

And nobody is smashing Luke with the Force. He walks through their attacks.



Good for Caedus, then.

Yeah...and Arcann, Vaylin, and the Dread Masters are similarly >>> the B Team.

erm

erm

GM Yoda
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Luke isn't walking through Valkorion's Lightning, or the Dread's TP, lal.

Neither is he immune to the effects of drain. Indeed.

Azronger
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Luke isn't walking through Valkorion's Lightning, or the Dread's TP, lal.

I've given you my argument that even RotS Sidious would walk through it, which has gone undisputed thus far (we'll see if Nai responds). If he's walking through it, so is Luke.

And yes, he's absolutely going to mindrape the DMs (or at least he's capable of it). Partially resisting DE Sidious' domination >>>>>>> Anything the DMs have ever done



Which does not mean he won't be walking through it.

Azronger
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah...and Arcann, Vaylin, and the Dread Masters are similarly >>> the B Team.

In Sabers? No, they are not.

Deronn_solo
Don't be arrogant.

I love how you think anyone on this site registers on my radar enough for me to keep track, or remember every shitty argument they make, lal. Repost the argument here because I don't know which one you are talking about.

Also, Luke isn't Sidious regardless.



Show me Luke mind raping anyone with with mental fortitude of the DM's pls.


Except, Palpatine never really bought his full telepathic power to bear on Luke, and Skywalker sure didn't shake off Palpatine's hold; in fact, he needed Leia's help to finally bream through it.



Not while he is getting attacked from the others here, no, he isn't. Krayt draining was having a noticeable effect on Luke, Valkorion drain --- and his power --- is magnitudes above even Reborn Krayt, let alone Apoc version of the character.

Petrus
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Team two destroys.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Also, Luke isn't Sidious regardless.


You're right; he's stronger. He could no-sell UnuThul's turbolaser-bending TK to the point where a black hole would not have phased him; heck, his casual telekinesis in the Black Fleet Trilogy is demonstrably greater than anything the team has done with lightning anyway.



Well Luke's a Jedi, but he is more powerful than Sidious, threw off Abeloth, and powerscaling and all.



Yeah, but this is peak Luke.



Krayt's drain injured Luke while he fought Abeloth for hours (days?), lmfao. Here, Luke can crush everyone but Valkorion and maaaaybe Revan within seconds, given that even as of the Black Fleet Trilogy he can turn a mountain sized fortress to dust, and given that as of NJO he can manipulate singularities. Then Revan just gets used as a bowling pin while Luke just walks through Valkorion and then chops his head off.

Ursumeles
Great post, Ell thumb up

Azronger
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Don't be arrogant.

I love how you think anyone on this site registers on my radar enough for me to keep track, or remember every shitty argument they make, lal. Repost the argument here because I don't know which one you are talking about.

It wasn't arrogance; it was a logical deduction based on you calling my Palpatine vs the Vaders argument cancer, so I assume you had read the whole thing (apparently you haven't, so you were probably trolling). I listed Palpatine's barrier feats there.

I've also explained to you (yes, you, personally) why Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Valkorion's, which you'll realize translates to Palpatine walking through it like nothing, if you read my argument.



No, but as Ell said, he's stronger.



I don't need to. He knows the technique, and has shown willpower far beyond anything the Dread Masters could ever dream of. You need only to connect the dots.



Source that he didn't?

The rest is just you repeating what I condenced into two words (hint: partially resisted).



Based on what? From where do you draw the comparison between Krayt and Valkorion?

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Great post, Ell thumb up

I wonder if you do any actual do any debating besides laughable cheer leading?

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I wonder if you do any actual do any debating besides laughable cheer leading?
Nah.





To name a few:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=635634&pagenumber=1
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=632437&highlight=title%3A%28Urs%29
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=635894&pagenumber=4
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/darthfallax/blog/my-interpretation-of-caedus-vs-luke-in-inferno/128961/#comments-block-1838821

Deronn_solo
Ehh, I'll wait until I see concrete evidence of this. Luke beats Sidious because he can circumvent pretty much everything the latter has under his sleeves, and he's the superior martial combatant.

Lets stop using arbitrary cross era power-scaling to prove your point, lal.




Umm, that black hole thing is obviously hyperbole, unless you're going to assume Luke's defenses is actually pushing the solar mass range. Beside that, telekinetic damage isn't nearly the same as damage from energy. One has been noted as being "nearly impossible" for even the most powerful Jedi Master to deflect, the other is capable of being repealed by even passive shields every Force user user possess.


I mean, correlating the two like you're doing right now is pretty flawed honestly. That's literally like using someone TK showings to prove how powerful their lightning would be, which, in this, case, would be pretty freaking monumental giving Jadus was holding together an entire 600 meter ship with his telekinetic, and he is literally nothing compared to Vitiate, let alone Valkorion. Or, I can just as easily say me Luke no-selling corrosive dark side energy sufficient enough to drain an entire planet, but I won't because that's retarded debating lmao. Show me Luke's Force defenses against attacks of the Force energy variety please because what you're saying isn't going to cut it, unless you think because Kas'im was capable of throwing up a shield in a split second that was capable of deflecting temple busting TK; we're going to to say could do the same with a turbolaser? laughing out loud






That doesn't mean he's a better telepathic users, like, at all. erm Regardless, I'd argue Sidious wouldn't be capable of mind raping the DM's either.



Even accounting for the power leap, I haven't seen anything that suggest Luke would just no sell the DM's TP with zero notable strain at all, lal.



Citation needed for that, please. Regardless, Krayt's drain isn't on the same plane as Valkorion --- who, in a weaken state, was drained an entire planet via a "clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side". No rituals, or such were stated to be used. He became noticeably more powerful after pulling off this feat, btw.



This feat, in combat, is worth about as much as Valkorion eating Ziost, which is to say, not nearly as effective as you're spinning it. Luke had time to concentrate and gather his energies for the fortress feat, neither did he do so instantaneously. The Black Hole feat is that plus 1,000, and left him completely exhausted:


---Excerpt taken from New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream

Regardless, it does show the raw power he holds, and that does transfer into combat obviously, but it will be far less potent and effective. Honestly, I don't see them going down instantaneously like you claim here. Vaylin and Arcann maybe, but not the Dread, Valkorion, and Revan. From then on there,

Valkorion alone is capable of giving Luke a fight with his god-like power and immense command of it -- attacking with:

1) Lightning that is, logically, far superior to shield bypassing, ship downing Sith Lightning "infinitely" more powerful than lightning that can char powerful Force sensitives, one-shotting Arcann, and casually wrecking Marr with nothing more than a gesture.

2) TK, through scaling that utterly dwarfs Jadus' own, who was capable of holding together ships, or collapsing a huge portian of the Dark Temple while heavily weakened and vastly weakened.

3) Drain sufficient enough to to siphon energy from Revan lightyears away, and potent enough in raw strength to eat an entire planet.


The Dreadmasters will be:

1) Telepathically attacking him with TP capable of mind slaving 100's of Sith, tearing apart fleets, and terrorizing planets.

2) Siphoning his energies like they did against the TOR protags


Revan, can teleport throughout the battlefield, while, likewise, attacking with:

1) Vitiate influencing telepathy.

2) Strike team ragdolling TK.

3) Using the Force to protect himself from Luke potent attacks with Force shields sufficient enough to protect himself from a blast powerful enough to raze all life an entire kilometer in range.

Luke is totally toast, honestly.

Deronn_solo
I'll get to your reply later Az, I'm too strapped for time and lazy to do so now. Plus, I'm not a fan of debating two people at once, kek.

The Ellimist
I 100% believe Luke wins this.

I'd respond to DS but he seems to be AWOL sooo...

Azronger
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I'll get to your reply later Az

And yet he never did.

And nobody is surprised.

Azronger
On topic, Luke stomps

Ursumeles
Luke can oneshot Valkorion, and Valkorion can oneshot the rest of his team. The winner is obvious.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Team.

Azronger
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Team.

R u active on the SW scene again

AncientPower
The team creams him and it isn't funny.

FYI, for all of the supposedly god-like power of FOTJ Luke, he was still far from eclipsing Krayt. As much as people want to wank the Beyond Shadows circumstance. It doesn't make up for the fact that Krayt prior to his Reborn instance wasn't even capable of surpassing Spirit!Muur who gets completely shat on by Darth Malak, even in Muur's prime. Which means Revan essentially shitstomps Reborn Krayt.

I'm not even trying here, either. SF!Malak changes everything.

The Merchant
Thought FOTJ Krayt>Vong Krayt whom lost to Muur.

AncientPower
FOTJ Krayt IS Vong Krayt, he's just Beyond Shadows. But that's not the point, Reborn Krayt's power growth doesn't make up for Muur's own limitations. Nor does it make up for how massively more powerful Malak is to Muur. Nor the fact a heavily weakened Prodigal Revan was still more powerful than Malak, Revan of course grows insanely more powerful by SoR.

LordOfTheLight
Luke one-shots.

AncientPower
That's absolutely laughable.

LordOfTheLight
Much less so than the crap you give.

AncientPower
When you can form coherent sentences that aren't riddled with era wank horseshit, certainly.

Luke's best non-oneness, in-combat feats are against Caedus; who is probably only comparable to Arcann, and not getting one-shotted by full-power Abeloth. Then only defeating a portion of Abeloth's power with Krayt's aid.

He's never pulled anything like surviving a team this powerful, nor can your best wank concieve of anything remotely close to an argument for it.

The Ellimist
Uh Vong Krayt was dying from his armor, FotJ Krayt was beyond shadows and not as weakened, but in either case there's no reason to assume parity with Luke in that fight anyway.

The Ellimist
Anyway I'm on my phone rn but peak performance Luke is just going to speedblitz Valkorion.

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by AncientPower
When you can form coherent sentences that aren't riddled with era wank horseshit, certainly.

Luke's best non-oneness, in-combat feats are against Caedus; who is probably only comparable to Arcann, and not getting one-shotted by full-power Abeloth. Then only defeating a portion of Abeloth's power with Krayt's aid.

He's never pulled anything like surviving a team this powerful, nor can your best wank concieve of anything remotely close to an argument for it.

I don't want to get into a spitting contest with the likes of you, but there is no polite way to put forth the fact that it is extremely amusing to hear this coming from a person widely known for his/her cancerous ToR/ToTJ era wanking.

That said, yeah, Luke one-shots. The team's collective power is much lesser than his, and he can effectively speedblitz anyone here.

Edit:My best wank will leave you in tears, so let's not get into that.

AncientPower
Which doesn't negate the fact that Muur was a mere spirit who was constantly fighting his host for control throughout and was still confirmed to be more powerful than Krayt or Cade.

The claim that there's no parity between them can't be made merely due to the observations and dismissal of the fight. Not when Luke considers Krayt to be his equal on the 'throne of balance'. Certainly not when Caedus' spirit warns Luke of how dangerous the 'dark man' is even to him. The intent throughout the Apocalypse novel is to establish Krayt as a grave threat of greater danger than Caedus, and who is even a threat to Luke himself.

Even if the parity is slim, it is undeniably there and is established with purpose. Which still makes the likes of Revan a very serious threat to Luke in combat. We know this because of how massively Malak scales off of Karness Muur due to Star Forge/Star Map correlations in power.

AncientPower
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
I don't want to get into a spitting contest with the likes of you, but there is no polite way to put forth the fact that it is extremely amusing to hear this coming from a person widely known for cancerous ToR/ToTJ era wanking.

That said, yeah, Luke one-shots. The team's collective power is much lesser than his, and he can effectively speedblitz anyone here.

I wank Anakin higher than anyone. laughing out loud

You've provided absolutely fvck all that resembles an argument for why he does. Not that there's one to make. But please continue with your ad hoc.

The Ellimist
lol by that logic Vestara = Ben Skywalker in potential

Krayt tried draining Luke for hours or days or whatever and it didn't work, Revan's best force feats are below Black Trilogy Luke

Anyway, and again i'm on my phone:

- Valk is too slow and a piss poor combatant
- DM's are worthless against a peak Luke
- Vaylin is a poor combatant and gets blitzed
- Arcann is sub-Caedus and gets ragdolled like Luke has done to his nephew twice
- Revan is not strong enough

What does it matter if they are together?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Krayt tried draining Luke for hours or days or whatever and it didn't work,
whattheshit

The Ellimist
Krayt was draining Luke and the narrator says they fought for an indeterminately long period of time (mentioning hours or days, time blurred)

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by AncientPower
I wank Anakin higher than anyone. laughing out loud

You've provided absolutely fvck all that resembles an argument for why he does. Not that there's one to make. But please continue with your ad hoc.

You also wank every other character in those eras higher than anyone. I wank Arca Jeth whenever the opportunity presents itself, but that doesn't mean I turn into a Vitidiot.

AP/SR, to me, you are effectively Erkan/SithMaster tier as a debater. You not only possess their quality of debating logic, but you also have their stubborn persistence. Even if I did write threads and threads( which I have done countless times), you wouldn't be convinced. I know, because I have seen you in action.

I haven't put forth an argument, because to me, the winner is obvious. Luke>Sidious(much)>Team. And neither am I going to waste my time on one. I'l leave that to people actually interested. If you noticed, I haven't bothered about you at all on KMC.

DarthAnt66
@Elm:

It said the draining "seemed to continue for days," in which that phrase is actually used in dictionaries as an example for hyperbole, and then the text suddenly went, "it suddenly seemed that only a breath had passed," anyway.

There's no gauge of time whatsoever in Beyond the Shadows. Putting any sort of time-stamp on it to make Luke look impressive is nonsense, since the return can be placed and say that Krayt ****ed him up in a "breath."

More importantly, Krayt's drain had a blatant affect on Luke, so no clue where the "it didn't work" comes from.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The Ellimist
lol by that logic Vestara = Ben Skywalker in potential

Krayt tried draining Luke for hours or days or whatever and it didn't work, Revan's best force feats are below Black Trilogy Luke

Anyway, and again i'm on my phone:

- Valk is too slow and a piss poor combatant
- DM's are worthless against a peak Luke
- Vaylin is a poor combatant and gets blitzed
- Arcann is sub-Caedus and gets ragdolled like Luke has done to his nephew twice
- Revan is not strong enough

What does it matter if they are together?

What the fvck were you high on when you read that fight? erm

Woe is you. I've been posting from a phone for three years.

Valk is slow, but he can percieve faster than nano second+. Seems legit. Oh and dominating Arcann, Vaylin and the Outlander simultaneously as they attacked from multiple directions is hardly a symbol of being poor in combat.

Why are Dread Masters, who shit on the Lost Tribe who Luke has struggled with, worthless?

Vaylin is arguably > Revan, but sure.

Arcann tanking Valkorion's Force Storm variant for minutes as it destroyed a fleet of ships, and a multi thousand feat drop after being knocked out, without any serious injury, before getting far more powerful, is easily Krayt tier; nevermind Caedus.

Revan >> Reborn Revan >> Prodigal Revan > Hindered and weakened Prodigal Revan > Darth Malak >>> Karness Muur ~ Reborn Krayt.

thumb up

AncientPower
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
You also wank every other character in those eras higher than anyone. I wank Arca Jeth whenever the opportunity presents itself, but that doesn't mean I turn into a Vitidiot.

AP/SR, to me, you are effectively Erkan/SithMaster tier as a debater. You not only possess their quality of debating logic, but you also have their stubborn persistence. Even if I did write threads and threads( which I have done countless times), you wouldn't be convinced. I know, because I have seen you in action.

I haven't put forth an argument, because to me, the winner is obvious. Luke>Sidious(much)>Team. And neither am I going to waste my time on one. I'l leave that to people actually interested. If you noticed, I haven't bothered about you at all on KMC.

If not massively lowballing every era that isn't PT/OT/NJO in an effort to choke to death on Sheev's non-existent penis, makes me a TOR wanker, then you feel free to try and make yourself feel better about being another sub-Gideon.

Oh and I've been through the rounds for Shaak Ti, Jaina Solo, Ben Kenobi, Talzin, and a whole list of people that aren't TOR related.

You people and your gift for projecting is actually hilarious.

Oh and I stopped seriously debating about ten years ago, I instead take pleasure out of using the very same cancerous scaling logic of PT wankers against them and then watching them rant on about how retarded their own debating style is.

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by AncientPower
If not massively lowballing every era that isn't PT/OT/NJO in an effort to choke to death on Sheev's non-existent penis, makes me a TOR wanker, then you feel free to try and make yourself feel better about being another sub-Gideon.

Oh and I've been through the rounds for Shaak Ti, Jaina Solo, Ben Kenobi, Talzin, and a whole list of people that aren't TOR related.

You people and your gift for projecting is actually hilarious.

No, it's massively inflating and over-exaggerating the capabilities of any "Ancient" era.

Sure. Only when it comes to cross era comparisons, you have people like Caedus on Arcann's level.

I too have argued for Thon, Arca Jeth, Ood Bnar, Revan( yes)and the Jedi Exile. What's more, late 2015/early 2016 I was of the opinion that Vitiate>>>Sidious. I was a fool, but yeah.

Your existence as a debater is what's hilarious. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that I am treating our little chat as serious.

Edit: So, you are trolling. Okay then. I wonder what your actual self is like.

AncientPower
You and your ilk have done everything to lowball everybody from Krayt to Bane to Nihilus to Revan to the Ancient Sith and more. That you call not joining in on your mass brain death 'TOR wanking' is frankly hilarious and oh so ironic.

You all bandwagoned with Gideon's Sheev wank and did your best to mock absolutely every other era.

It's the absolute height of hypocrisy to call me a wanker for actually believing that characters from other eras can also hold their own in the PT era and even thrive.

This status quoing BS that you've signed up for is utter cancer and that is precisely what killed SW debating in the first place.

There are extremist views for every era, certainly, but deciding that the only course of action is to mock and lowball the others is even more egregious.

Now please continue with your personal justifications for what you deem to be logical.

LordOfTheLight
1. I believe Krayt is among the top 6 Sith Lords of all time. Nihilus in top 5. I believe Bane can beat all Jedi in the PT era one-on-one, save 4.

Bane isn't an Ancient Sith, b/w.

I believe anybody you call a 'PT wanker' here ( me, Az, etc.) will echo these sentiments, at least roughly. This isn't lowballing.

2. I have never communicated with Gideon, nor have I ever seen him in action.

3. No. It would be absolutely fine if you did that. The thing is, you actively jump to argue against any RoTE/post RoTE era character, when faced with characters that they obviously don't stomp( from the general perspective) from other eras. Literally anybody( aside from Anakin, probably). Sometimes, you actually do argue that characters from RoTE-post who by consensus and logic, stomp the other character from the other era, actually lose.

3. Lmfao. I have seen the so called "great" era of debating from other threads, back in 2006/2007-2010/2011 etc. If this is what "killed" that sort of debating, I am all for it.

4.

5. You are taking this way too personally. Almost as if you have a duty to the era or something, lol.

I simply state my views as they are. As it is, as I have said before, I don't wish to argue with you, because it'll be futile anyways. Cross era arguments at least.

6. I don't need to. I have already justified it with one line.

AncientPower
Lol, I have never done anything of the sort. If I say that Malgus is around the tier of Dooku, that's because I have reason to believe so. You're claiming that I put the TOR era over the RotE when I've done nothing of the sort. I support TOR era characters mostly because PT wankers put them all on Plo Koon tier.

Don't presume to know why and what for I debate. If you want to see serious wank, how about you ask Az how Sidious can blitz an infinite amount of Vaders or how Sheev has grown 6.4 billion times in power. Perhaps you would like to inquire Legend about how he thinks Valkorion is Mortis tier.

Simply put, there is no amount of lowballing here that can possibly see Luke one-shotting Valkorion or Revan. Nevermind this entire team.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Bane isn't an Ancient Sith, b/w.
"Darth Bane, the ancient Sith Lord, you are."

wink

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Darth Bane, the ancient Sith Lord, you are."

wink

Funny that this comes from Yoda. Bane is only a century older than him, lol.

S_W_LeGenD
People siding with Luke Skywalker in this case are psychotic morons.

Even an Abeloth's avatar does not stand a chance against this Strike Team.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by AncientPower
What the fvck were you high on when you read that fight? erm

You only sort of repeat that Krayt was sort of useful in that fight, so I suppose Meetra and Scourge have parity with Revan now or something.

Anyway it's irrelevant because Murr can only be scaled with a dying Krayt.



NOOB



Thanks for reminding me actually, cause now we can scale everyone else down by their being so weak next to Valk.

Show me evidence Valk can put Luke down in the few meters he has to work with then. Disabling a few freighters? Killing Darth Marr? Luke tanked UnuThul's turbolaser bending trillions member hivemind amped TK to the point where not even a black hole could've moved him (can demonstrate literal description from laptop), successfully closed the distance with Abeloth avatars several times, can crush island sized fortresses to dust with raw Tk decades before his prime, etc. Valk has nothing on him in feats, and it gets even more one sided with powerscaling or accolades.



lol we're going by the OP's stipulations for Luke (and in the thread title), or should we just say the DM's got taken out by random strike teams and call it even?

Their main weapon is TP, and there's no way they're TP'ing Luke so who cares about them? Plus they prob have shit reflexes and could be ragdolled given Luke ragdolls Caedus twice, and Caedus is above anyone on team 2 sans Valkorion, being at the least on Revan's tier.

Frankly, I can't think of a non-entity who ragdolled someone as powerful as Caedus like that ever before.



She can't fight, just like her dad. FotJ Abeloth has far more raw power than Valk and Vaylin but she still can't easily kill Luke. They can't win close quarters even if they could beat him in a Force fight, which they can't either.



Pre-NJO Luke could disable actual cruiser sized warships just with TK, Arcann tanking an unconcentrated "fleet" (read: small freighters) killer is nothing.



lol surviving a fall but getting injured from it is sub-AotC Anakin, who did that casually while guiding himself to a specific target without injury.




How do you know Malak >>> Murr?

How do you know Murr ~ Reborn Krayt? Her weakened spirit was above a dying Krayt but you have no way to know who was weakened more, lmao.

Or I could say FotJ Luke > LotF Luke > NJO Luke > DE Sidious > RotJ Sidious > RotS Sidious > TPM Sidious > Plagueis > Vitiate, seems like a much more impressive chain to me.

LordOfTheLight
IIRC, turbolaser cannons have melted ice moons.

Azronger
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
People siding with Luke Skywalker in this case are clueless morons.

Not even Abeloth can defeat this Strike Team in a one-on-one encounter.

https://i.imgur.com/w3hUyFC.gif

S_W_LeGenD
Say what you want @Azronger but your stance in this fight is absolutely ridiculous. Same goes for @The_Ellimist.

LordOfTheLight
Where did UnuThul deflect turbolaser fire? Because that feat is absolutely insane.

NewGuy01
Jacen did it too.

DarthAnt66
Debatable.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
IIRC, turbolaser cannons have melted ice moons.
Turbolaser significantly vary in power, just like any other weapon system.

I keep hearing about UnuThul bending Turbolasers; where is the evidence? And what kind of Starship?

Lucien Draay while wearing Ludo Kressh's guantlets endured massive firepower from a Starship by the way:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11117/111178634/4895889-protection+survives+bombardment+1.png

And before you assume that those gauntlets might have done the heavy-lifting, think again.

Lucien Dray endured a Lightning blast from Haazen who was wearing Ludo Kressh's guantlets at the time.

Lucien Draay is MID-TIER per TOR standards.

---

UnuThul is Darth Vader level at most.

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
IIRC, turbolaser cannons have melted ice moons.

Of course, it depends on how much turbolaser fire they deflected as well.

Trocity
Iirc, Jacen might have deflected turbolaser fire, as in altered the trajectory slightly to miss him, whereas Unuthul was bending turbolasers back towards where they were being fired from.

Can't fully remember, though.

The Ellimist
I mean come on Valk's best combat feat is disabling some tiny ships while Luke decades before his prime was musing about his ability to destroy cruisers and actually crushing Vader's fortress, etc.

If you don't think feat wars are an accurate methodology then powerscaling and narrative puts peak Luke >> DE Palpatine.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean come on Valk's best combat feat is disabling some tiny ships while Luke decades before his prime was musing about his ability to destroy cruisers and actually crushing Vader's fortress, etc.

If you don't think feat wars are an accurate methodology then powerscaling and narrative puts peak Luke >> DE Palpatine.
Tiny Starships? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Those were military-grade Starships and some of them were huge. You need to get your eyes examined.

Another thing is that Valkorion was not even aiming at the Starships; his FLS expanded to such a level that its bolts struck some Starships mid-flight, causing them all to crash and burn.

Now, show me a demonstration of FLS that has caused that much death and destruction in a fight.

In-fact, Arcann mused that Valkorion was not operating at his peak capacity at the time.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Trocity
Iirc, Jacen might have deflected turbolaser fire, as in altered the trajectory slightly to miss him
The ****?

S_W_LeGenD
Jacen did not deflect Turbolaser fire. He dodged firepower of a vessel, if I recall correctly.

The Ellimist
That wouldn't make Luke's top 10 feats and you guys lean on it in like every Valk debate, which is kind of telling.

Luke has better feats because crushing cruisers and cloud scraping fortresses beats the aforementioned and literally having an infinite resistance move to TK is better than blocking the aforementioned. I'm using feats because by narrative Luke obviously wins.

How about this: come up with the three best feats for Valkorion, and we can talk.

LordOfTheLight
Disabling ships isn't even that big of a deal. All you have to do is fry the controls in the ship.

Trocity
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The ****?

You made his respect thread, not me.

Oh wait

DarthAnt66
Well, to clarify, Jacen's never on-paper reflected turbolasers. Jaina alleges he has done it before, though.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
That wouldn't make Luke's top 10 feats and you guys lean on it in like every Valk debate, which is kind of telling.
I didn't knew that Luke Skywalker has Force lightning at par. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke has better feats because crushing cruisers and cloud scraping fortresses beats the aforementioned and literally having an infinite resistance move to TK is better than blocking the aforementioned. I'm using feats because by narrative Luke obviously wins.

How about this: come up with the three best feats for Valkorion, and we can talk.
Comparing apples and oranges now?

When has Luke Skywalker crushed a cruiser?

That fortress was located on the mountain top. It is a good feat but even a MID-TIER TOR era character has collapsed two buildings in a fight.

Valkorion has destroyed Ziost; his actualized power is greater than all barring The Ones. A showing of this scale and intensity required 8000 Sith Lords to pull off centuries earlier.

Show me anything from Luke Skywalker that matches Ziost.

The Ellimist
Jaina is a trustworthy source.

And Luke is so much more powerful than Jacen in the Force it's not really close.

Trocity
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, to clarify, Jacen's never on-paper reflected turbolasers. Jaina alleges he has done it before, though.

Ahh, okay. I'm probably thinking of what he does in the DNT, in which case it probably wasn't turbolasers.

Nvm.

LordOfTheLight
And your memory is picture perfect?

Or are you cataloging his feats? If so, I wonder why you haven't made that RT yet, because you said that you finished the full EU of NJO or something.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Disabling ships isn't even that big of a deal. All you have to do is fry the controls in the ship.
It is not easy to disable military-grade Starships actually. They have defensive arrangements for this kind of thing.

Look at this video:

fYV9UlE8MMk

The Sith Inquisitor attempted to disable that Starship with a stream of Force lightning, to no avail. His Force Lightning was sufficient to knock out Darth Malgus for a while when it was directed towards him.

The Ellimist
Lol I'm saying Luke's TK >> Valk's FL, so who cares about the latter?

I can pull it up on my laptop later but he muses that he could rip the hulls off cruisers and destroy their cannons if he wanted to but won't cause light side and all. It was in like Shadows of the Empire or somewhere.

The fortress had its own hanger bay and touched the beach, lol. And Luke crushed it to dust after lifting all of it up at once.

Oh puh-lease about Ziost. He needed a nexus, prep time, the power of the planetary population, etc. Also talk about apples and oranges because obviously Luke isn't going to do Ziost.

Luke is not only more powerful but he's a really good close quarters combatant - so Valk can't just be more powerful, he has to be so dominating Luke never gets close to him. Yet your best combat or non-sketchy feat for him is disabling some ships.

Trocity
Just a quick question: How do you know it "knocked out Malgus for a while?" Kao directs it into him, then immediately slashes Vindican's helmet off. It then cuts to another scene for a total of 5 seconds, then returns to the battle, and all 3 of them are still duking it out.

Is there a written version of the fight or something?

Trocity
Originally posted by The Ellimist
he muses that he could rip the hulls off cruisers and destroy their cannons if he wanted to but won't cause light side and all. It was in like Shadows of the Empire or somewhere.


thumb up Shadows of Mindor, iirc.


I think about a year or so after ROTJ?

The Ellimist
I don't think it was Mindor, though that book does suggest Luke > Vader already.

I'll find it in a respect thread later.

Azronger
It was in the Hand of Thrawn duology, way after the OT.

Azronger
Also Ellimist, why are you wasting your time on these LeGenDary arguments instead of focusing on your debate with me?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol I'm saying Luke's TK >> Valk's FL, so who cares about the latter?
Apples and Oranges comparison.

These are two entirely different expressions of power. And FL is so hard to counter that even the most powerful Jedi Masters struggle in this respect. And Valkorion's FL is at the very top.

Showings of TK shall be compared with showings of TK. And I am sure that Valkorion's TK would be beastly as well but he is not into it much.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I can pull it up on my laptop later but he muses that he could rip the hulls off cruisers and destroy their cannons if he wanted to but won't cause light side and all. It was in like Shadows of the Empire or somewhere.
Musing does not count as actual showings, period.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The fortress had its own hanger bay and touched the beach, lol. And Luke crushed it to dust after lifting all of it up at once.
I have gone through it and much of the passage is filled with hyperbolic description of events. We do not get a clear picture of the size of Fortress and the setting in question. Additionally, Luke performed this feat in a meditative stance (implying maximum effort on his part).

And as I pointed out to you, a MID-TIER TOR era Jedi collapsed two buildings in a fight. A HIGH-TIER should be capable of replicating Luke's feat.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Oh puh-lease about Ziost. He needed a nexus, prep time, the power of the planetary population, etc. Also talk about apples and oranges because obviously Luke isn't going to do Ziost.
Complete load of crap.

When Valkorion came to Ziost, he was absolutely lacking in power. By orchestrating conflict and chaos, he was able to draw strength from all the deaths and recover. He devastated Ziost soon after restoring his strength. And it happened very quickly.

Every second planet is a nexus in Star Wars. Per this logic, many of Luke's and Palpatine's feats can be attributed to nexus environments as well. Don't push your luck with this line of logic.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke is not only more powerful but he's a really good close quarters combatant - so Valk can't just be more powerful, he has to be so dominating Luke never gets close to him. Yet your best combat or non-sketchy feat for him is disabling some ships.
Valkorion > Luke in actualized power.

Yes, Luke is very good in close-quarters combat but Valkorion has allies on his side. Valkorion's powers will not only worn Luke out but his allies will capitalize on this opportunity.

The Ellimist
Cause these are low effort iphone posts haha. But I haven't forgotten about ours.

Trocity
Ah, right... the ghosts of Kun and Palpatine laugh at him while he's musing on the many ways he could destroy the ship or some shit. My mistake.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Azronger
Also Ellimist, why are you wasting your time on these LeGenDary arguments instead of focusing on your debate with me?
Concession accepted. Now scoot.

LordOfTheLight
^Lmao.

It's like these guys want a concession desperately.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
^Lmao.

It's like these guys want a concession desperately.
This is what you guys offered:

1. Unsubstantiated Turbolaser-related feats
2. Apples and Oranges comparison
3. Sticking to hyperboles
4. Misconceptions about Valkorion's showings

You and others do not have genuine arguments. Mostly bullshit.

The feats you guys love to harp about are largely MID-TIER or HIGH-TIER in TOR era.

The Ellimist
The TK feat:

There were many options, of course. He could reach out with the Force and damage the ships' control surfaces, crippling them. He might even be able to wrench off whole hull plates or deform the weapons emplacements, tearing them apart with the Force alone.

Hand of Thrawn I: Specter of the Past

@Legend:

- You can't seriously accuse me of "apples to oranges" for comparing TK to lightning (even though the former tends to have less destructive vistas so I'm handicapping my side) and then talk about ***Ziost***, lmao.

- Luke is a reliable narrator not known to boast about his own powers, so it's perfectly reasonable and in line with his fortress feat.

- We know the fortress scrapes the clouds but also touches the beach and holds a hanger bay, seems like your TOR characters collapsing buildings doesn't match turning a fortress to dust like that.

- Lol you don't know how Vitiate's amps balance with his being weak and not all planets are equally strong in the Force.

- You still haven't given me any relevant feats for Valkorion to match Luke's. I haven't given you close to all of his best ones, while you lean on disabling some ships and then a totally unrelated ritual one right after accusing *TK* of being too dissimilar.

Azronger
LeGenD when r u gonna debunk my essay u said u would lol concession accepted lol

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t641234.html

Sheevites win again

https://i.imgur.com/pax2fSN.jpg

AncientPower
Resize that image you cuck.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The TK feat:

There were many options, of course. He could reach out with the Force and damage the ships' control surfaces, crippling them. He might even be able to wrench off whole hull plates or deform the weapons emplacements, tearing them apart with the Force alone.

Hand of Thrawn I: Specter of the Past
That is Count Dooku TIER stuff, if to be taken at face value.

Valkorion's apprentice Exal Kressh destroyed lot of stuff on a massive Space Colony while fighting young Teneb Kel. She even destroyed the power core of the Space Colony, which started a chain reaction and the Colony fell apart. Heck, Teneb Kel rearranged some debris of this Colony in the outer space to make his way to a speeder in order to escape.

Seriously, man?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
- You can't seriously accuse me of "apples to oranges" for comparing TK to lightning (even though the former tends to have less destructive vistas so I'm handicapping my side) and then talk about ***Ziost***, lmao.
Are you in your senses?

FL and TK are two entirely different expressions of power.

Description of FL:-

Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.

From The Ultimate Visual Guide

Force lightning causes excruciating pain as it weakens an individual's life, and is nearly impossible to deflect.

From Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Description of TK:-

Commonly known as a Jedi's object movement power, telekinesis is more accurately described as a manipulation of the Force to control the direction of objects through space. Jedi utilize this talent not only to push, pull, and lift objects, but also to redirect projectiles and guide their starships through combat.

From Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

I am sorry but purpose of FL is vastly different from that of TK.

If a stream of FL is destroying inanimate objects, raw power poured into it is simply too great. However, this is not its intended purpose.

Conversely, Telekinesis is suitable for affecting inanimate objects.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
- Luke is a reliable narrator not known to boast about his own powers, so it's perfectly reasonable and in line with his fortress feat.
Luke is a "subjective narrator" at times just like any other character.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
- We know the fortress scrapes the clouds but also touches the beach and holds a hanger bay, seems like your TOR characters collapsing buildings doesn't match turning a fortress to dust like that.
I have seen clouds hovering only 30 feet above ground. Touching a beach implies that the building in question was located near one.

Have you played SWTOR? Your personal stronghold has a hanger bay and many rooms. Holistically, the stronghold is not very big. An average building is relatively much bigger.

Collapsing two buildings during the course of a fight, is not something we get to see everyday. This is a fantastic showing under the circumstances, and from a MID-TIER of TOR-era at most.

I am sorry but Luke's showing while in meditative stance is not all that fantastic as it is cranked up to be.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
- Lol you don't know how Vitiate's amps balance with his being weak and not all planets are equally strong in the Force.
Completely misleading and disingenuous argument.

Exar Kun was barely able to sustain his intangible existence on Yavin IV until he came into contact with living beings. And this planet is counted among the most powerful nexus environments in the galaxy. Your faith in nexus environment to do the heavy-lifting is misplaced.

When Valkorion resided there, he needed chaos, conflict, death and destruction to recover his strength. Lucky for him, Revan brought all that to Yavin IV. Still, conflict on Yavin IV was not sufficient for Valkorion to restore his strength to pre-ritual level. This is why he created another conflict on Ziost.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
- You still haven't given me any relevant feats for Valkorion to match Luke's. I haven't given you close to all of his best ones, while you lean on disabling some ships and then a totally unrelated ritual one right after accusing *TK* of being too dissimilar.
You are not paying attention or deliberately ignoring provided explanations.

Valkorion's showings on Ziost trump anything from Luke Skywalker in the context of actualized power and raw potency, period.

---

@Azronger

You will get a response one day. But not today or anytime soon due to my schedule.

The Ellimist
lmao I call you out on your hypocrisy on saying TK and FL can't be compared but then bragging about Ziost, and you respond by lecturing me about the differences between TK and FL and completely ignoring the hypocrisy.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
lmao I call you out on your hypocrisy on saying TK and FL can't be compared but then bragging about Ziost, and you respond by lecturing me about the differences between TK and FL and completely ignoring the hypocrisy.
Oh dear.

Actualized Power is the key term.

I am talking in the context of "actualized power" while citing Ziost because Valkorion not only showcased a number of abilities over there but multi-tasked to the extreme and devastated the planet in the end. The entire development convey a message that how much Valkorion had grown since the days of Nathema; an event of similar proportions in which 8000 Sith participated. Valkorion's understanding of the Dark Side had grown by leaps and bounds since coupled with his raw power.

Unlike you, I am not into comparing apples and oranges.

Luke and Valkorion are not expected to fight in this manner:

1. TK
2. FL
3. Dicking

They are expected to bring their "actualized power" to bear against each other in whatever ways they deem necessary and Valkorion has clear advantage. Unfortunately for you, Valkorion is potent in a great many techniques and has numerous options to exercise.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You only sort of repeat that Krayt was sort of useful in that fight, so I suppose Meetra and Scourge have parity with Revan now or something.

Krayt was far more useful in that fight than you're giving him credit for, which I suppose is on purpose. He saved Luke's ass and held off Abeloth personally on more than one occasion. Was Luke more impressive? Certainly. That renders your point moot though, because Krayt was just being smart.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Anyway it's irrelevant because Murr can only be scaled with a dying Krayt.

No, Muur's spirit who was further hindered by Celeste Morne interrupting and fighting his possession was outright superior in power overall. Krayt dying isn't nearly as disadvantageous as all of that. Krayt claims his power multiplied after death, yet Muur we know for a fact isn't as powerful as he was in his prime. They both are more powerful in their prime.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Thanks for reminding me actually, cause now we can scale everyone else down by their being so weak next to Valk.

Who is undoubtedly DE Sidious tier. thumb up

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Show me evidence Valk can put Luke down in the few meters he has to work with then. Disabling a few freighters? Killing Darth Marr? Luke tanked UnuThul's turbolaser bending trillions member hivemind amped TK to the point where not even a black hole could've moved him (can demonstrate literal description from laptop), successfully closed the distance with Abeloth avatars several times, can crush island sized fortresses to dust with raw Tk decades before his prime, etc. Valk has nothing on him in feats, and it gets even more one sided with powerscaling or accolades.

Valkorion has immense esoteric abilities that Luke is vulnerable to. He can also create mass illusions of himself. He also has nine teammates to use to buy time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol we're going by the OP's stipulations for Luke (and in the thread title), or should we just say the DM's got taken out by random strike teams and call it even?

The Dread Masters were so powerful that they could resurrect each other, and others, from the dead. You have absolutely no idea how ridiculous their feats are.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Their main weapon is TP, and there's no way they're TP'ing Luke so who cares about them? Plus they prob have shit reflexes and could be ragdolled given Luke ragdolls Caedus twice, and Caedus is above anyone on team 2 sans Valkorion, being at the least on Revan's tier.

Shit reflexes, which is why they can teleport without gesturing. I love how you're trying to make the evidence of absence argument.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Frankly, I can't think of a non-entity who ragdolled someone as powerful as Caedus like that ever before.

Valkorion dominating Outlander, Arcann and Vaylin casually and simultaneously is easily more impressive.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
She can't fight, just like her dad. FotJ Abeloth has far more raw power than Valk and Vaylin but she still can't easily kill Luke. They can't win close quarters even if they could beat him in a Force fight, which they can't either.

She can't fight, because you say she can't. That's funny. Vaylin overloading the Sanitarium to the point that the mountainous complex was reduced to dust, from orbit, casually, indicates that she is incredibly powerful and almost certainly Revan tier.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Pre-NJO Luke could disable actual cruiser sized warships just with TK, Arcann tanking an unconcentrated "fleet" (read: small freighters) killer is nothing.

They weren't small freighters. laughing out loud

The lightning that overwhelmed the ships and caused crippling damage was merely the excess lightning from the FLS. Arcann was tanking the most concentrated and powerful portions of the FLS.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol surviving a fall but getting injured from it is sub-AotC Anakin, who did that casually while guiding himself to a specific target without injury.

That's the most hilarious rebuttal you've made thus far. Arcann had expended his energy defending himself from the FLS before Valkorion upped the output which blasted Arcann clear the fvck out. Also, the height from which Arcann unconsciously fell was far, far higher than Anakin using the Force to guide himself down to lower lanes of traffic.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How do you know Malak >>> Murr?

Ajunta Pall tells Revan that the source of their strength was the Star Map in Sadow's tomb. Malak mastered the power of the Star Forge, an infinitely more powerful source of Dark side energy than the Star maps.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How do you know Murr ~ Reborn Krayt? Her weakened spirit was above a dying Krayt but you have no way to know who was weakened more, lmao.

Already answered this previously.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Or I could say FotJ Luke > LotF Luke > NJO Luke > DE Sidious > RotJ Sidious > RotS Sidious > TPM Sidious > Plagueis > Vitiate, seems like a much more impressive chain to me.

You have absolutely no evidence suggesting Plagueis is > Vitiate. In fact, Valkorion's feats absolutely defecate on Plagueis'. His death caused a shockwave in the Force that Satele Shan was almost knocked out by. Satele Shan being Darth Marr's only equal amongst the Jedi. All other Force users less powerful than her would've been knocked out. That's at least millions of Jedi and Sith.

slayne
Luke gets melted, lol.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh dear.

Actualized Power is the key term.

I am talking in the context of "actualized power" while citing Ziost because Valkorion not only showcased a number of abilities over there but multi-tasked to the extreme and devastated the planet in the end. The entire development convey a message that how much Valkorion had grown since the days of Nathema; an event of similar proportions in which 8000 Sith participated. Valkorion's understanding of the Dark Side had grown by leaps and bounds since coupled with his raw power.

Unlike you, I am not into comparing apples and oranges.

Luke and Valkorion are not expected to fight in this manner:

1. TK
2. FL
3. Dicking

They are expected to bring their "actualized power" to bear against each other in whatever ways they deem necessary and Valkorion has clear advantage. Unfortunately for you, Valkorion is potent in a great many techniques and has numerous options to exercise.

Lol @ you inventing a strawman where we have Luke and Valk do rounds of TK and then FL, rather than Luke having better combat applicable feats.



That doesn't compare with ripping armored warship hulls off, kek.

Luke's actual combat feats are far better than Valkorion's, and I haven't even bothered to bring up some of his more impressive ones yet. Like you know, being described as immovable to even a supermassive black hole. You have provided exactly one combat feat, which is disabling some ships. You can try to puff up these ships all you want, the fact of the matter is that they are not cruisers and Valk didn't actually damage their armor. It's a B-tier feat and you're so obsessed with it, which leads me to think you have nothing else.



roll eyes (sarcastic)

Trolling aside, can you show me which of Valk's feats compares?



It refutes your claim that the fortress only went above the clouds because it was already on a mountain or something.



What, how does collapsing two buildings compare unless if these were like Coruscant skyscrapers or something?



And you don't know whether the conflict on Ziost + nexus + Ziost's populace + prep balances out his weakened state or not. Exar Kun only had one of those.



Except...it doesn't for all the aforementioned reasons? And what do you expect, that Luke's going to go wipe out planets for the loltz?

In actualized power, a Luke decades before his peak only needed some "unlocked potential" from an untrained Leia's battle meditation that many sources on the fight don't even bother to mention to overwhelm Palpatine, who did more damage to Ziost on a whim with no need for spooky circumstances.

AncientPower
It's confirmed Vitiate revitalised his former power by drawing on the death he caused. Then he death wave'd Ziost.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by AncientPower
Krayt dying isn't nearly as disadvantageous as all of that.


Lol you have absolutely no basis with which to say this. Is Muur being distracted by Celeste and in a weakened spirit form worse than having super-painful spikes constantly injected into you? Who knows?



lol ok.



Like...? In actual combat all he ever does is use Force lightning and telekinesis anyway.



Hardly unfamiliar to Luke, who can use illusions too.



Yeah but you have to establish that they can actually threaten Luke for this to matter. Even if you pool their showings together they don't match Luke's tanking UnuThul feat in Dark Nest, and they aren't fast enough or coordinated enough to do much but sporadically and inconsistently try to hit him with TK and FL way below what Luke can handle.



So Cade-tier?



It's not an absence of evidence, it's evidence that they're far weaker than Valkorion and get taken out by small strike teams of no-names.



Is it? If I were to ask you for their best feats I'm pretty sure they'd be scaling off of Valkorion, because they are.



I was talking about competence but OK. Luke closed the distance on Abeloth and DE Sidious, now we're to believe Vaylin and Revan are going to stop him before he can gut Valkorion? (the DM's and Arcann and pointless here)



They didn't look very large to me, certainly not as large as the cruisers Luke could f*ck up.



They weren't actually harming the hulls, they were apparently damaging the control systems or something. It's not a feat that proves much of anything about beating Luke.



It seems like you're backtracking to this feat meaning nothing much at all, unless if you can quantify how exhausted Arcann was and why "an exhausted Arcann is still only a little weaker than AotC Anakin" matters here. Also terminal velocity is a thing, it doesn't matter that Arcann's fall was slightly longer given Anakin's was more than long enough to hit terminal speed anyway.



Oh, you mean SF empowered Malak. OK.



Plagueis blurb, sis.



Sidious's created a DS nexus and Luke >> RotJ Sidious.



Lol so why don't we hear of all the Jedi and Sith who died in the middle of combat as they just fell to the ground and got blasted? Satele's Force senses are especially attuned, Yoda was also physically sticken by Order 66 to a greater extent than Obi Wan was, this doesn't mean Obi Wan > Yoda.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plagueis blurb was debunked like a century ago, as I recall.

The Ellimist
HOw?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I think Chee said that the blurbs are completely subjective, and by no means binding or definitive. I don't remember the exact wording, I'm sure Ant has it though.

It also throws out the Caedus > Vader blurb.

Valkorion also isn't a Sith Lord.

The Ellimist
I would like to see that.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=643666&pagenumber=1

The Ellimist
That just means the blurbs can be subjective if the author wants them to be, that doesn't mean this particular one is inaccurate lol.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That's for us to argue, I suppose. smile

AncientPower
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol you have absolutely no basis with which to say this. Is Muur being distracted by Celeste and in a weakened spirit form worse than having super-painful spikes constantly injected into you? Who knows?

Given that we have Marka Ragnos losing to Jaden Korr when in spirit form, I'm inclined to go with the former. Not that you're really making much of a response with this in the first place.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lol ok.

thumb up

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Like...? In actual combat all he ever does is use Force lightning and telekinesis anyway.

Like the wave of sorcerous dark energy he knocked out Braga's strike team with. The other wave he managed to nigh-instantly kill hundreds of Knights of Zakuul with, without killing the Outlander's party in the midst of it. Or the 'flash' of power he used to instantly kill 11 Dark Council members. Or the other Dark Council which he allowed to walk into his throne room before they all died screaming.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Hardly unfamiliar to Luke, who can use illusions too.

These were nigh-physical manifestations who could cause fatal harm and appear randomly. Not to mention how he spontaneously creates Monoliths who are nigh-immortal and made of his raw power.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah but you have to establish that they can actually threaten Luke for this to matter. Even if you pool their showings together they don't match Luke's tanking UnuThul feat in Dark Nest, and they aren't fast enough or coordinated enough to do much but sporadically and inconsistently try to hit him with TK and FL way below what Luke can handle.

Given Luke struggled with Sith sabers when a nexus interfered with him, struggled against Lost Tribe High Lords who have fvck all feats to compare to anyone on the team Luke faces, and more importantly the fact that UnuThul is actually pretty shit in combat in the first place. Yeah, that's not good enough.

Oh and the Dread Masters and Valkorion have poor coordination? They have 300 years of teamwork and experience to go with. Vaylin and Arcann, who have consistently fought together, aren't coordinated? Revan and the Outlander are both expert combatants who have led entire groups and armies in combat. Just in case you don't get it, Valkorion, Arcann, Vaylin and Revan can be amped by the Dread Masters as they fight Luke.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So Cade-tier?

Comparing Dark Transfer to what the DM's did is almost as stupid as the last comparison you made.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not an absence of evidence, it's evidence that they're far weaker than Valkorion and get taken out by small strike teams of no-names.

Because Valkorion is DE Sidious tier and you're yet to prove that Luke ever surpassed Sidious in the first place. Those 'small strike teams' are game mechanics, we know only that the greatest Jedi and Sith in the galaxy laid siege to Oricon and after an immense battle, the Dread Masters were finally broken. Your lowballing is actually pathetic.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is it? If I were to ask you for their best feats I'm pretty sure they'd be scaling off of Valkorion, because they are.

Not at all. The Outlander has a range of feats and power growth that Caedus doesn't contend with. Vaylin has her mountain feat above all else. Arcann has dominating the Outlander in the Force until KOTET.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I was talking about competence but OK. Luke closed the distance on Abeloth and DE Sidious, now we're to believe Vaylin and Revan are going to stop him before he can gut Valkorion? (the DM's and Arcann and pointless here)

He closed the distance on Abeloth who has demonstrably the worst combat tactics to power ratio in the mythos by a mile. DE Luke was empowered to ungodly amounts when he closed on Sidious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
They didn't look very large to me, certainly not as large as the cruisers Luke could f*ck up.

Calling them 'cruisers' is meaningless when some of the ships Valkorion downed were evidently bigger than some of the surrpunding towers.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
They weren't actually harming the hulls, they were apparently damaging the control systems or something. It's not a feat that proves much of anything about beating Luke.

Nice baseless assumption. SCORPIO notes that all life signs in the vicinity of the Spire were instantly killed, something she noted as fascinating. SCORPIO has witnessed the destruction of fleets and the bombardment of planets. The ships were in the midst of preparing to run a blockade against Arcann's Eternal Fleet and logically would've had their shields up. It proves that even pre-prime Arcann can tank massive power for long durations of time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It seems like you're backtracking to this feat meaning nothing much at all, unless if you can quantify how exhausted Arcann was and why "an exhausted Arcann is still only a little weaker than AotC Anakin" matters here. Also terminal velocity is a thing, it doesn't matter that Arcann's fall was slightly longer given Anakin's was more than long enough to hit terminal speed anyway.

What the fvck are you on about? You called Arcann surviving that drop unconscious and appearing unharmed afterwards a 'sub-AOTC Anakin' feat despite your laughable comparison. Anakin per the AOTC novel guided himself down using the Force, Arcann was unconscious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Oh, you mean SF empowered Malak. OK.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Plagueis blurb, sis.

Debunked by Leland Chee, bruh.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sidious's created a DS nexus and Luke >> RotJ Sidious.

But we were talking about effects on the Force, namely a comparison of Plagueis' death and Valkorion's, in which the comparison massively favors Valkorion.

Though if you wanted to compare nexus creating. The Dread Masters turned Oricon into a hellscape that made Dromund Kaas and Korriban look like Dantooine, and yet they were 'nothing' next to Valkorion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol so why don't we hear of all the Jedi and Sith who died in the middle of combat as they just fell to the ground and got blasted? Satele's Force senses are especially attuned, Yoda was also physically sticken by Order 66 to a greater extent than Obi Wan was, this doesn't mean Obi Wan > Yoda.

Because it's a mail from Shan and not everything happens on-screen/on-page. They were too busy showing the Outlander triumph and take over the Eternal Throne. As a major proponent of Caedus tanking turbolasers, I would've thought you'd grasp that. Also, Satele was evidently not the only one who felt it as Darth Marr's spirit felt it on the spiritual plane. Furthermore, Yoda has personal connections to those Jedi who died en masse. Valkorion's death was a tidal wave through the Force that threatened to knock her clean out.

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