how many vaders could ... sidious beat?

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aalyasecura95
how many vaders could each of the incarnations of sidious be able to beat at once?


1. 65bby sidious

2. early apprentice sidious

3. 52 bby sidious

3. tpm sidious (pre plagy death)

4. tpm sidious (post plagy death)

5. rots sidious

6. rotj sidious

7. de sidious

The Ellimist
Originally posted by aalyasecura95
1. 65bby sidious


0.



0.



1



1



1-2



2



2



3

UCanShootMyNova
0.
0.
1.
1.
Possibly 2.
2.
2.
Possibly 3.

Darth Thor
Aside from his DE incarnation, he's not taking more than 1 Vader IMO.


But then I do wonder why Vader didn't use Galen to help him overthrow the Emperor.

Ziggystardust
He can take two Vaders. Lightning makes the difference.

GM Yoda
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Aside from his DE incarnation, he's not taking more than 1 Vader IMO.

Azronger
0



0



1-2



4-5



10-15



12-20



Possibly infinite amounts. He is literally so far above them they cannot touch him and he can kill several in the blink of an eye.



Possibly infinite amounts. He is literally so far above them they cannot touch him and he can kill several in the blink if an eye.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Azronger
Possibly infinite amounts. He is literally so far above them they cannot touch him and he can kill several in the blink if an eye.

You're just trolling at this point.

NewGuy01
Y'know, there was a time when everyone thought like that.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Absolutely insane. Even fellow Sidious wankers should be ashamed.

Azronger
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You're just trolling at this point.

I'm not; I can back up my claims.

UCanShootMyNova
Go ahead.

Azronger
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Absolutely insane. Even fellow Sidious wankers should be ashamed.

At least I don't think he can destroy the universe, lol.

Azronger
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Go ahead.

Tomorrow.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Azronger
At least I don't think he can destroy the universe, lol.

Nobody believes that.

The Ellimist
Not sure if I agree with Azronger, but he has a point. It's possible that at a certain point these match ups become like DBZ where numbers are meaningless.

UCanShootMyNova
Nah. You vastly overrate the gap between the higher tier Force users and mid range ones.

Deronn_solo
What Az claims is fan-fiction and would never actually happen if it was written by any actual writer, lmao.

The Ellimist
Authorial intent aside, it's possible that it's like a FPSSJ Gohan vs. an infinite number of ASSJ Vegeta's. That isn't a huge difference in the grand scale of DBZ, but Gohan would just kill them at will.

UCanShootMyNova
That's really not how SW works or has ever been implied to work.

Deronn_solo
thumb up

TenebrousWay
4-5

JKBart
1. 65bby sidious - 0; he would get killed swiftly.
2. early apprentice sidious - 0.
3. 52 bby sidious - kills 1, definitely.
3. tpm sidious (pre plagy death) - kills 1 definitely, maybe 2.
4. tpm sidious (post plagy death) - kills 2 with difficulties
5. rots sidious - kills 2 definitely, and should kill 3
6. rotj sidious - kills 2 definitely, and should kill 3
7. de sidious - kills 3 definitely, and should kill 4

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure if I agree with Azronger, but he has a point. It's possible that at a certain point these match ups become like DBZ where numbers are meaningless.

Nah, Star Wars isn't DBZ.

Dark-Kenshin
2 at max. Anymore = Vader Slaughterhouse.

Dark-Kenshin
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Aside from his DE incarnation, he's not taking more than 1 Vader IMO.


But then I do wonder why Vader didn't use Galen to help him overthrow the Emperor. Bad writing. Good thing TFU is no longer canon.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure if I agree with Azronger, but he has a point. It's possible that at a certain point these match ups become like DBZ where numbers are meaningless. Numbers made a difference in GT.

Without Goku's friends helping him in direct combat, they would have died.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Numbers made a difference in GT.

Without Goku's friends helping him in direct combat, they would have died.

Through distraction and other forms of support, not by overwhelming Shenron in direct combat.

Dark-Kenshin
It's illogical, but DBZ is so bad at this that Perfect Cell would easily beat 10,000 Friezas

Tondemonai
Originally posted by Azronger
0



0



1-2



4-5



10-15



12-20



Possibly infinite amounts. He is literally so far above them they cannot touch him and he can kill several in the blink of an eye.



Possibly infinite amounts. He is literally so far above them they cannot touch him and he can kill several in the blink if an eye.

Lmao

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
It's illogical, but DBZ is so bad at this that Perfect Cell would easily beat 10,000 Friezas

Technically, it's the other way around. smile

Azronger
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nobody believes that.

Tempest does.

Azronger
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure if I agree with Azronger, but he has a point. It's possible that at a certain point these match ups become like DBZ where numbers are meaningless.

thumb up

SunRazer
DE Sidious is beating more than two Vaders. He's reached the point where he can literally one-shot, either to temporarily incapacitate or to kill.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Azronger
Tempest does.

Nah he doesn't

Azronger
Was he trolling, then?

Azronger
Originally posted by SunRazer
DE Sidious is beating more than two Vaders. He's reached the point where he can literally one-shot, either to temporarily incapacitate or to kill.

thumb up

SunRazer
That doesn't mean he'd beat an army, lol. And it's probably one-shot to incapacitate as opposed to kill.

GM Yoda
Not more than 2-3.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by SunRazer
DE Sidious is beating more than two Vaders. He's reached the point where he can literally one-shot, either to temporarily incapacitate or to kill.

Show me Sidious one-shotting Vader-level characters.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by JKBart
1. 65bby sidious - 0; he would get killed swiftly.
2. early apprentice sidious - 0.
3. 52 bby sidious - kills 1, definitely.
3. tpm sidious (pre plagy death) - kills 1 definitely, maybe 2.
4. tpm sidious (post plagy death) - kills 2 with difficulties
5. rots sidious - kills 2 definitely, and should kill 3
6. rotj sidious - kills 2 definitely, and should kill 3
7. de sidious - kills 3 definitely, and should kill 4

This, if Sidious dies not Force Storms them all. Maybe a bit more, tho.

Azronger
I promised I would post my case today. However, I am only done with the first part of my response that explains how it is impossible to outlast Sidious. The rest will come in a few days.

Deronn_solo
Hurry up with that, Az babe. I just love to read bad fan-fiction, and Sidious being worth anything more than 4 Vader's falls right into that niche, let alone an army. laughing out loud

Azronger
It's not fanfiction. I use canonical sources to back up my claims.

UCanShootMyNova
Haven't read a bad fanfiction in a while. This should be good.

MythLord
Nothing can be as bad as Shaak Ti's daughter Tano, or Dooku's son...

Actually, scratch that. Maul x Savage x Ferall: Brotherly Love is infinitely worse.

Azronger
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Haven't read a bad fanfiction in a while. This should be good.

So you don't even read your own arguments and just type blindfolded? No wonder they're so shitty.

Deronn_solo
Buuuuuuuuuuuurn.

I know you ain't gonna go down like that, Syn.

UCanShootMyNova
I would end his career but it looks like he's going to do that for me once he posts his argument. smile

Deronn_solo
laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud

Azronger
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I would end his career but it looks like he's going to do that for me once he posts his argument. smile

End my career, lmao. As if you could honestly do that.

Trocity
Star Wars is not anime.

3-5 can take 1, would lose to 2.

6-7 would take 2 or 3.

Sinious
I love this: Originally posted by JKBart
1. 65bby sidious - 0; he would get killed swiftly.
2. early apprentice sidious - 0.
3. 52 bby sidious - kills 1, definitely.
3. tpm sidious (pre plagy death) - kills 1 definitely, maybe 2.
4. tpm sidious (post plagy death) - kills 2 with difficulties
5. rots sidious - kills 2 definitely, and should kill 3
6. rotj sidious - kills 2 definitely, and should kill 3
7. de sidious - kills 3 definitely, and should kill 4 but I think I ultimately agree more with Elm's post.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I would end his career but it looks like he's going to do that for me once he posts his argument. smile

Only career you could end is your own.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Only career you could end is your own.

Tbh the only way anybody's career ends on KMC is an hero.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Show me Sidious one-shotting Vader-level characters.

DE Luke got briefly incapacitated by his Lightning, IIRC.

Azronger
The second part of my argument is now done. In it I have explained that it would be impossible for the Vaders to kill Sidious.

UCanShootMyNova
Post it.

Azronger
I will post the full argument once it is done. No need to rush. Have some patience.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Azronger
The second part of my argument is now done. In it I have explained that it would be impossible for the Vaders to kill Sidious.

Strange that Vader was the one to actually kill Palpatine then.

Azronger
No, it was the Death Star reactor core. Vader can do him no harm without external aid.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Azronger
No, it was the Death Star reactor core. Vader can do him no harm without external aid.


What the Death Star reactor core just sucked him in?

Vader must have been doing Palpatine harm, hence Palpatine's screaming.

Rebel95
Originally posted by aalyasecura95
how many vaders could each of the incarnations of sidious be able to beat at once?


1. 65bby sidious

2. early apprentice sidious

3. 52 bby sidious

3. tpm sidious (pre plagy death)

4. tpm sidious (post plagy death)

5. rots sidious

6. rotj sidious

7. de sidious
1-3 all lose, the second 3 might win
4-5 can both take 1 Vader, but lose to 2
6 can maybe take 2 Vaders
7 can beat 3 Vaders

Azronger
Originally posted by Darth Thor
What the Death Star reactor core just sucked him in?

Vader must have been doing Palpatine harm, hence Palpatine's screaming.

Do you really think you can hurt someone simply by picking them up? laughing out loud

Palpatine's screams were the result of shock, surprise, and terror.

Beniboybling
Nah, Vadur crushed his spleen.

Azronger
Source?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Azronger
Do you really think you can hurt someone simply by picking them up? laughing out loud

Palpatine's screams were the result of shock, surprise, and terror.


You really think Vader was caressing him with that robotic arm? More likely he was crushing him.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
Source? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhDtFnpNOfE

1:54, Sheev yells "ma spleen!"

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You really think Vader was caressing him with that robotic arm? More likely he was crushing him. Yeah, Sidious didn't die from the immense radiation of the Death Star's reactor shaft, but rather a punctured lung.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by aalyasecura95
1. 65bby sidious

2. early apprentice sidiousNone.Maybe 1, Palpatine should be quite powerful at this point.Certainly one. Most likely two given he appeared on equal footing with his master.
Certainly 2, but I don't think he has the stamina or the Force powers to outlast or overwhelm an excess of that.
Simply by bombarding them with his Force powers he could overwhelm 3, but he'd have to pull out all the stops.The above but with greater ease. Potentially destroys a fourth. Assuming proper distance however he could take out potentially swathes simply by throwing Force storms at them.

Ursumeles
thumb up

Also, you mean "by" instead of "my" at 6, or?

Beniboybling
Yeah typo.

Ursumeles
Thank me later wink

Ziggystardust
Reasons for 52 bby Palpatine beating 1 Vader? Haven't seen solid evidence of his superiority.

Beniboybling
He was more powerful at Talzin at the time, and by age 30 should be very much coming in to his abilities. Though granted I believe its also stated his power multiplied since.

The Ellimist
Azronger is your argument ready?

Ziggystardust
He's stringing us a long, I've seen this tactic before. There is no argument here.

Azronger
I'm not a machine. I have a life outside this place. Be patient.

Azronger
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Reasons for 52 bby Palpatine beating 1 Vader? Haven't seen solid evidence of his superiority.

He has replicated basically all of Plagueis' speed and strength showings.

Rebel95
Vader believed he and Luke could overthrow the emporer as of ESB. Rotj Sidious might not be able to take 2 Vaders

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Rebel95
Vader believed he and Luke could overthrow the emporer as of ESB. Rotj Sidious might not be able to take 2 Vaders

I think the plan was for Luke to grow far more powerful.

SunRazer
I imagine 52BBY Sidious and future incarnations would be able to beat Vader.

Right before Plagueis' death? Definitely one, possibly two. After Plagueis' death, he's likely bringing down two Vader's.

By RotS, I think any doubts about his ability to take down 2 Vader's should have evaporated, though I doubt he could beat 3.

RotJ Sidious is probably capable of taking down 3, but with strain.

DE Sidious should beat 3 solidly.

The Ellimist
It's funny how Nova makes all his posts at around this time. Time zones and all.

SunRazer
Actually, I make most of my posts later at (my) night. A few hours later. Which is when there's actually some people here to interact with.

Nobody's on at this time, lol.

Azronger
Done with the Lightning and TK sections. TP and Burst I'll do tomorrow. Storm will follow the day after, and maybe I'll finish it then.

Beniboybling
It doesn't take that long to write up a concession.

Azronger
Which is why it's not a concession smile

Beniboybling
It will be. smile

Azronger
Have some faith, man

Azronger

Azronger

Azronger

Azronger

Azronger

SunRazer
Fix the image sizes, please.

Azronger

Azronger

Azronger

Azronger

Azronger
Originally posted by SunRazer
Fix the image sizes, please.

Goddammit, you ruined my posting spree.

But sorry, I can't edit the pictures.

DarthAnt66
Just change them to links.

Azronger
Sorry, can't edit them anymore.

AncientPower
That is actually a rather good argument.

Azronger
Thanks!

SunRazer
The argument's good in certain places, but some definite reaching at other points. DE Sidious has shrugged off the impact of a ton of a machinery being dropped on him, but he clearly wasn't immune to lightsabers, as evinced when Luke sliced off his hand. Inevitably, one of the Vaders will land a lightsaber strike as Sidious fights the others, and when that happens, Palpatine will not be simply shrugging it off.

As for Palpatine never being tired from Draining Byss - why would he be? You're forgetting that the product of Drain Life is actually funneling their life essence into yourself. Palpatine was at least constantly making up for the energy he expended on Draining them. If anything, he was empowered even further.

Sidious' best chance here is to teleport himself afar and just spam Force Storms to devastate the rest of the world he's on.

The Ellimist
Not sure if I agree with everything in it, but it's a really solid case; honestly you should post it somewhere that isn't just on page 5 in this thread.

SunRazer
For what it's worth, if we take that sourcebook quote about Sedriss being able to defeat Luke seriously, then DE Sidious was literally empowering people to Vader+ tier on a whim. Also, when he empowered two of his other disciples, he was releasing galaxy-wide shockwaves through the Force that caused DE Luke palpable pain upon feeling said shockwaves.

The Ellimist
DE Sidious truly is on another level, yeah.

SunRazer
Not to mention the Dark Empire Endnotes claiming that Palpatine himself is a nexus that literally rends apart the fabric of space and "tears apart everything in its vicinity".

Zenwolf
Well I'm not really seeing any contradiction to the quote. I mean yeah Luke pushed Sedriss, but wouldn't Luke as of this point be able to push Vader anyway?

SunRazer
Well, that only means that Sedriss is Vader+ by merit of Palpatine's augmentation (which even Sedriss admits is the primary source of his power).

Azronger
Originally posted by SunRazer
The argument's good in certain places, but some definite reaching at other points. DE Sidious has shrugged off the impact of a ton of a machinery being dropped on him, but he clearly wasn't immune to lightsabers, as evinced when Luke sliced off his hand. Inevitably, one of the Vaders will land a lightsaber strike as Sidious fights the others, and when that happens, Palpatine will not be simply shrugging it off.



I doubt he would even engage them in a lightsaber duel, tbh. And I see no reason why he wouldn't keep his Force Barriers at their maximum.



Was he? The population of Byss increased thousandfold over time; he'd have to spend all the energy he gained from it into draining more and more people. For a time, it was a never-ending cycle. In addition, he used Force Illusions and Mind Domination as well, which would've devoured his reserves even faster. His galaxy-wide Battle Meditation is something that he also arguably kept on for decades. Do you think the draining would've made up for all that?



I agree. I just felt like listing all the powers he could use to kill them.

Azronger
But I'm honestly surprised by the positive response, thanks guys!

Azronger
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure if I agree with everything in it, but it's a really solid case; honestly you should post it somewhere that isn't just on page 5 in this thread.

What do you disagree on?

Nah, In have it bookmarked on my profile. It won't get lost.

MythLord
I am impressed Az... Although, some points were reaching, tbh.

Ursumeles
thumb up

Azronger
Originally posted by MythLord
I am impressed Az... Although, some points were reaching, tbh.

Thanks! But which ones?

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Azronger
Thanks! But which ones?

Az Force Sidious is confirmed *thumbs up*

The gap between Vader and his master is pretty massive.

Most were great points, haven't read all of it yet, but I'd say the ongoing gauntlet featuring the Kursid's was a fairly weak juxtaposition for undying stamina. It's more or less an instance of force users being confronted with combatants that can't use the force and don't have the weaponary to really endanger the duo (e.g. heavy blasters, automatic blaster weapons). So why should we expect anything but a landslide victory for Team Sith here? And why wouldn't any other pair of trained force users come out of this with the very same result? For starters, The Jedi Exile could potentially do this on her own.

Azronger
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Az Force Sidious is confirmed *thumbs up*

thumb up



Thanks for the compliments, appreciate it.

But I don't see what the issue is. Of course they were going to win, but that wasn't my point. The point being they could literally fight for hours on end - which is noted by the text - with no signs of exhaustion.

If other Force users could do the same, good for them. I'm well aware guys like Revan and the Exile have better army busting feats, but again, that's beside the point.

MythLord
Originally posted by Azronger
Thanks! But which ones?

- Killing almost any finite number of Vader's(as if he can kill them in the trillions)
- Him having infinite stamina(just because he can fight droids for hours doesn't mean he can do so to thousands of Darth Vader's -- the more the challenging the foe, the more reserves you'd have to waste to dispatch them)
- Assuming eating a slice of cake is a good metaphor for the Dark Side adepts actually aiding in strengthening Byss
- Assuming the gap between a Kursid warrior and Darth Vader is the same as the gap between TPM and DE Sidious

Just some stuff off the top of my head.

Also, I PMed you on Vine.

Darth Thor
I think I'm gonna Puke

Beniboybling
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure if I agree with everything in it, but it's a really solid case; honestly you should post it somewhere that isn't just on page 5 in this thread. With resized images. uhuh

Azronger
Originally posted by MythLord
- Killing almost any finite number of Vader's(as if he can kill them in the trillions)
- Him having infinite stamina(just because he can fight droids for hours doesn't mean he can do so to thousands of Darth Vader's -- the more the challenging the foe, the more reserves you'd have to waste to dispatch them)

Him using numerous powers without any signs of exhaustion for decades non-stop is kinda evident of endless stamina.

And why do you think he wouldn't kill so many Vaders? He, according to his own word, can annihilate a thousand enemies with mere inclination. The Vaders are defenseless against this.

He can also TP them to death, speedblitz and weaken them with lightning etc. And he has indestructible Force barriers. Vaders cannot kill him.



Why is it not? The wording is the same - neither implies anything of helping each other.



Both Kursids and 52BBY* Sidious are one-shottable fodder to Vader and DE Sidious, respectively. I don't see what the issue is.

MythLord
Originally posted by Azronger
Him using numerous powers without any signs of exhaustion for decades non-stop is kinda evident of endless stamina.

No it isn't, lmao. "Endless" is a concept literally ingraspable by anything finite and sad to say, but Sidious is finite.

Again, the danger of the enemies decides just how much of your reserves you'll use. And given how Luke, who is holistically and canonically > Palpatine, was getting exhausted after raiding Shimrra's palace, I don't think Sheev's stamina is enough to withstand an assault from even a hundred Vaders.

Originally posted by Azronger
And why do you think he wouldn't kill so many Vaders? He, according to his own word, can annihilate a thousand enemies with mere inclination. The Vaders are defenseless against this.

Palpatine's boasts aren't canon, especially not when those boasts probably refer to non-Force sensitives or fodder Jedi/Sith, something Vader certainly isn't.

Originally posted by Azronger
He can also TP them to death, speedblitz and weaken them with lightning etc. And he has indestructible Force barriers. Vaders cannot kill him.

TP them to death? Because he can fog Vader's mind across the galaxy? That hardly means he can kill dozens of them TP. His Barrier is hardly indestructible, and under the insane pressure of lightsaber strikes from one of the MVP Sith in all existance and dozens of his equals, it'll give way, especially when Sidious has to simultaneously summon Force Lightning and telepathically influence even more Vaders.

He has limits, he cannot multitask so effectively. The only way he's beating more than 5 Vader's is by gaining distance and spamming Force Storm.

Originally posted by Azronger
Why is it not? The wording is the same - neither implies anything of helping each other.

Because in one case, you're splitting one thing into several parts, whereas here they're all focusing on one thing in completion. Palpatine set up the base, then the adepts came in and focused the Dark Side even more.

Originally posted by Azronger
Both Kursids and 52BBY* Sidious are one-shottable fodder to Vader and DE Sidious, respectively. I don't see what the issue is.

The gap is not at all the same, however. And 52 BBY Sidious is hardly one-shottable by Dark Empire Sidious, and even then... one is comparing a primitive, non-Force sensitive versus one of the MVP Sith of all time, the other is comparing a vastly less powerful version of a character to his latter incarnation.

Even if DE Sidious can one-shot his 52 BBY version, he certainly couldn't stomp dozens of them, whereas Vader wouldn't have a problem slaughtering vast groups of Kursid warriors.

Azronger
Originally posted by MythLord
No it isn't, lmao. "Endless" is a concept literally ingraspable by anything finite and sad to say, but Sidious is finite.

You took it way too literally.



Maybe if he enters into a lightsaber duel. But he can clearly defeat the with his Force powers.



Why would he lie, when in the same source he admits his limits? What's the motive?

And more importantly, where's the evidence against this? The way Force Storms are depicted in DE, and based on Luke's commentary, I'd say he gave a conservative estimate of his power.

And it doesn't really matter who it is referring to, since Vader will be annihilated regardless. Or do you have evidence against this? I've made my case in part 8.



I already gave my reasoning regarding TP.

I'd say Sidious' own Force Lightning is more pressurizing than Vader's lightsaber strikes, and even that didn't cause a scratch. He only continued to fire lightning.



Tell that to him when he used galactic BM, planetary Force Drain, planetary Force Illusions, and SSD TK at the same time.

Or by spamming Force lightning. Or TP. Re-read my post and tell me then how the Vaders win.



So are me and my friend. We're both trying to eat a cake, same as Sidious and his Adepts are trying to drain Byss. This does not mean anybody required help, only that there were multiple people involved.

The Adepts strengthening the Byss nexus doesn't mean anything since Sidious was on Coruscant all the time.



Whether he can is a debate for another time, but I still fail to understand how are numbers going to make the difference? It's like saying a bunch of toddlers can overwhelm an adult.

The Ellimist
I thought Vine was dead

Azronger
Nah, it's still going.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Azronger
What do you disagree on?


Not sure if you addressed this and I missed it but:

1. Force users do get fatigued, Luke got fatigued in TUF, Dooku got fatigued in RotS, Obi Wan is clearly breathing heavily near the end of the RotS duel, as is Qui-Gon after his first encounter with Maul, etc. I think these are much more tangible pieces of evidence than just assuming that Stover literally meant eternity by "endless", as if their fight would outlive the heat death of the universe or something.

As for Byss, it isn't clear that draining that is more energy intensive than doing the infinite lightning-spam that you'd need here. It almost certainly isn't, given that it takes up significantly less of his attention.

2. You're assuming his Force barriers can be put at maximum level indefinitely.

3. Telepathy hardly matters; he can drop Vader to his knees, that doesn't mean he can do much if there are like trillions attacking him from all angles.

4. What about Valkorion being threatened by Arcann and Vaylin, or Vader and Starkiller potentially challenging Palpatine?

Force Storm is a good point though, and you've definitely convinced me that numbers matter even less than I had initially thought, at least when dealing with combatants at this level. But I don't agree with the most extreme version of your position.

UCanShootMyNova
Debating whether or not to address this monstrosity...

Azronger
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Debating whether or not to address this monstrosity...

It's probably better than anything you've ever cooked up.

Azronger
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure if you addressed this and I missed it but:

1. Force users do get fatigued, Luke got fatigued in TUF, Dooku got fatigued in RotS, Obi Wan is clearly breathing heavily near the end of the RotS duel, as is Qui-Gon after his first encounter with Maul, etc. I think these are much more tangible pieces of evidence than just assuming that Stover literally meant eternity by "endless", as if their fight would outlive the heat death of the universe or something.

Of course they do. Eventually.

Stover's accolade wasn't my only piece of evidence. I merely brought it up as proof that even official canon acknowledges the possibility of Sidious fighting forever. This is supported by him fighting for hours and not showing the slightest sign of fatigue. Also the Byss feat.

Point is: Sidious' limits of endurance have never been established. In all the sources where he does lengthy Force use, he never tires, and canon says he can possibly fight for eternity. I think that's pretty self-evident.



I thought it was generally accepted that Drain is harder to pull of than Lightning. Even if not, Battle Meditation, Force Illusions, Mind Domination, and Drain Life together certainly are.



If he can keep up BM, FI, MD, and DL, I don't see why Barrier would be any different.



Read my post again.

1. He isn't getting attacked by trillions at once. Only the Vaders in the front lines can harm him.

2. He can kill Vader just by thinking about it. He knows the technique, and if Yoda and Luke couldn't resist Sidious, neither is Vader.

3. He has affected 10000 Force users with TP with no strain for the entirety of the Clone Wars (Yoda included), before growing thousands of times more powerful in this regard. Now why can't he kill a couple of Vaders with TP, then move onto a couple of others, and so on?



Valkorion isn't DE Sidious, lmao. I thought you of all people knew this.

Where is the latter even remotely implied? Vader chose to kill his apprentice rather than face his Master alongside him.



How many do you think he could kill, then?

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Azronger
It's probably better than anything you've ever cooked up.

Tbh I actually meant that more in regards to its sheer size but if you're going to be like that...

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Azronger
Stover's accolade wasn't my only piece of evidence. I merely brought it up as proof that even official canon acknowledges the possibility of Sidious fighting forever. This is supported by him fighting for hours and not showing the slightest sign of fatigue. Also the Byss feat.


Fighting for hours against non-Force sensitives =/= fighting an army of Vaders for eternity.



We can infer his fatigue from the fact that superior combatants like Luke can tire. As for the Stover quote, let's be realistic: if we take "endless" literally, we'd have to conclude that Sidious can outlive the heat death of the universe, that he had already become biologically immortal, etc.



Except that he's draining non-Force sensitives, and the "numbers don't matter" claim would scale Vader vs. these non-Force sensitives too.



Because draining some oblivious non-Force sensitives and using battle meditation on a fleet isn't the same as exerting enough to take out Vaders by the dozens, not when Vader also tanked Galen's suicide blast (albeit from a further distance).



If they surround him, we're talking about potentially hundreds, especially if they all throw their sabers at him.

You're also assuming that they can't combine powers, or add up their telekinesis.



Or he could use lightning, but it isn't clear that he can kill scores of Vaders by thinking while they rush him.



Oh that's clearly not as difficult as actually fighting someone. He struggles and groans against Yoda, and clearly focuses himself attacking a defenseless Mace Windu; he isn't constantly grimacing from unbalancing the Force, which is prob not something he has to sustain.



Arcann isn't Vader either; at any case, it's difficult to see a power growth that drastic, even if we're looking at Sidious's history; does he pass some inflection point somewhere along his training where this infinite killing is possible?



Didn't Vader hesitate to turn on his apprentice when Sidious discovered them?



With storms he could conceivably teleport away and then fry them all, so I'd say as many as would fit on a planetary surface. Without them, it depends on starting distance, etc.

Azronger
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Tbh I actually meant that more in regards to its sheer size but if you're going to be like that...

Oh, nevermind then. You're usually condescending towards me, so I thought you were being here, too.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Azronger
Oh, nevermind then. You're usually condescending towards me, so I thought you were being here, too.

Only in retaliation. I mean, every time I comment on a thread you're like "Wow, another wanky post." or "Going to cry about how your favorite character isn't where you put him at?"

When btw Dooku is actually my favorite character. Galen is just a character I champion because I felt he was underrated for a long time. Now I just do it for shits and giggles.

Azronger
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Fighting for hours against non-Force sensitives =/= fighting an army of Vaders for eternity.

As I have said in this thread, I know there are better army-busting feats. But that's completely beside the point. The point being that Sidious wasn't even remotely exhausted after his ordeal.



How long did Luke fight for? In DE, he's already a superior lightsaber duelist, yet he gets tired after 20 minutes of fighting. Luke isn't Palpatine. Stamina isn't a measurement of raw power.

And no, I don't take Stover's accolade completely literally. I just put it there to dissuade those who think I'm using some "fanfic" version of Sidious, to prove that what I propose isn't nearly as ludicrous as some may think.



Okay. Let me ask a different question: For how long do you think he could drain and dominate 20 billion Vaders before being exhausted and why?



*Using Battle Meditation on the galaxy.

Based on what is him firing lightning on a square kilometer area at max intensity more exhausting than using drain/illusion/mind domination on a moderate intensity on a planetary scale, and using BM on moderate intensity on a galactic scale?



If they do that, Sidious either dodges, or destroys their sabers mid-air.



No, I'm not. I addressed all of this in my original post.



Palpatine's mind can comprehend trillions of beings at once, lol. Thinking about all of them at once isn't difficult. Not saying he can kill a trillion Vaders but with the Byss scaling and his feat during the Clone Wars, killing a score would be a piece of cake.



Except Sidious isn't actually fighting against anybody who's in his tier of power here. All he has to do is picture it in his mind, and Vader dies.

And yes, he did sustain the unbalancing all the way to his final death in EE.



I don't really understand your point. Are you asking does Sidious have a feat where he kills hundreds of Force users? No. Does he have feats and scaling in other categories to suggest he is capable of this? Yes.



Nope. He stabbed Galen immediately when the Emperor stepped into the room.



Why would he need to teleport away, when he could just sit at the eye of the storm, sipping at his coffee?

Azronger
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Only in retaliation. I mean, every time I comment on a thread you're like "Wow, another wanky post." or "Going to cry about how your favorite character isn't where you put him at?"

When btw Dooku is actually my favorite character. Galen is just a character I champion because I felt he was underrated for a long time. Now I just do it for shits and giggles.

It's usually been you who's mocked me for my opinions for no reason really and been hostile in threads. I can't remeber a single instance where I've done the same.

But I honestly don't care about a shitfest such as this. Could we just stop?

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Azronger
It's usually been you who's mocked me for my opinions for no reason really and been hostile in threads. I can't remeber a single instance where I've done the same.

But I honestly don't care about a shitfest such as this. Could we just stop?

If you want. Believe it or not I prefer to have pleasant interactions with people on the forum.

Azronger
Me too.

UCanShootMyNova
An successful peace negotiations. smile

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