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Many think the Sheevites have struck the final blow to the Valkorion regiment by establishing Plagueis is > Vitiate via blurb --- but with evidence pointing to Valkorion being above his Vitiate self by a solid margin, can the Holy Church of the Sith Emperor strike back by showing being above Plagueis is child play compared the limitless one?

-Both characters are at their peak
- Neutral battle ground
- No prep.

Poll will be open for a week, so get your vote in, kek.

Plagueis.

Valk.

Valk.

lmao at blurb.

Valkorian wins.

Besides the blurb, which only applies to Vitiate since Valkorion was established as a Sith entity rather a Sith Lord, what is the argument for Plagueis camp?

valkorion electrocutes

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Besides the blurb, which only applies to Vitiate since Valkorion was established as a Sith entity rather a Sith Lord, what is the argument for Plagueis camp?

Sidious totally made the stars shake 100% tru fax.

Speaking of blurbs and such, do you guys remember the days when Valkoriate was above petty concepts of Sith and Jedi and light and dark?

https://s9.postimg.org/7e6fwlkdr/valkorion_kotet.pngpost images

facepalm

"His latest incarnation is Valkorian."

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
"His latest incarnation is Valkorian."

"Valkorion has lived for millennia."

There's obviously some inconsistency with the quote itself if Valkorian is his latest incarnation yet they're referring to the entity as Valkorian.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
There's obviously some inconsistency with the quote itself if Valkorian is his latest incarnation yet they're referring to the entity as Valkorian.

Or there's no inconsistency and the whole point is that each "face" he wears means absolutely nothing.

Valkorion.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or there's no inconsistency and the whole point is that each "face" he wears means absolutely nothing.

That's obviously not the case when there's a quote confirming the entity increases in power when assuming a new form.

Yeah, that's not what he meant, Syn.

Oh. What does he mean then? It sounds like he's suggesting that Valkorian employs dark powers off the basis of the quote stating "Valkorion has lived for millennia." And then it mentioning use of dark powers when its clear that his current form- I.E. Valkorian does not but that his prior forms- I.E. Vitiate did for those thousands of years until he assumed the Valkorian form.

Temp isn't saying Valkorion hasn't grown more powerful--that's almost beyond argument, at this point. What he's saying is that regardless of what form he takes or how he presents himself, Vitiate has always fundamentally stayed the same; he hasn't changed at all.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Temp isn't saying Valkorion hasn't grown more powerful--that's almost beyond argument, at this point. What he's saying is that regardless of what form he takes or how he presents himself, Vitiate has always fundamentally stayed the same.

And he's saying that to imply Valk uses dark powers so that he can link it back Valk being a Sith entity so he can tout the Sidious quote as evidence of Sheev's supremacy.

Yes, NG. I'm well aware of his agenda.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And he's saying that to imply Valk uses dark powers so that he can link it back Valk being a Sith entity so he can tout the Sidious quote as evidence of Sheev's supremacy.

Yes, NG. I'm well aware of his agenda.

Being aware of "his agenda" doesn't justify countering his post with completely irrelevant information.

It's not irrelevant because you're assumption that Vitiate has remained the same is incorrect. Valkorian has obviously adopted a different philosophy to his Vitiate incarnation.

I see no evidence that suggests the manner in which Valkorion uses the Force has changed tbh.

And your evidence for that is... This?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That's obviously not the case when there's a quote confirming the entity increases in power when assuming a new form.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And your evidence for that is... This?





There's a quote stating such that I remember seeing.

I'm no SWTOR wanker but I don't think we should ignore the facts.

The lack of a quote doesn't concern me. The fact that you're jumping from "he's grown more powerful," to "he's no longer a dark side entity," does.

I don't know how he employs the Force as Valkorian. It's possible he doesn't employ the Darkside.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Plagueis.

8-3. Thus far, Valkorion is utterly smacking the Muun upside the head with his fist of supremacy --- can Plagueis make a come back via his control over life and death, and Force unbalancing, or will the Church net a win over the Sheevites?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
8-3. Thus far, Valkorion is utterly smacking the Muun upside the head with his fist of supremacy --- can Plagueis make a come back via his control over life and death, and Force unbalancing, or will the Church net a win over the Sheevites?

Plagueis is winning solidly if you weight the votes by debating skill.

And a win over Sheev's inferior is about the best said Church could hope to scrape.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I don't know how he employs the Force as Valkorian. It's possible he doesn't employ the Darkside.

It's possible until you look at the codex entry that says otherwise.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's possible until you look at the codex entry that says otherwise.

It says that Valkorian is his latest incarnation and it refers to Valkorian using the Darkside to keep himself alive for millennia when we know he hasn't been around that long meaning when it says Valkorian it refers to him as the entity in general. Similar to how a quote referring to Vader can encompass his time as Anakin or how a quote referring to Anakin doesn't necessarily refer to his time as Vader.

Or it means that Valkorion and the original Tenebrae both use the dark side and thus are interchangeable for the purposes of the statement. That would explain why they called him Valkorion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Or it means that Valkorion and the original Tenebrae both use the dark side and thus are interchangeable for the purposes of the statement. That would explain why they called him Valkorion.

Also a viable suggestion.

Either way Valkorion is of the dark side...

Not in the former.

You said so yourself that Valkorion refers to his entity "in general" i.e. all his incarnations.

It refers to his past incarnations that did. I don't know if it refers to Valk as his current one.

It uses the name Valkorion so how can it not encompass his latest form?

Or it's simply referencing that Valkorian as one of the many incarnations of a single entity kept himself alive for those thousands of years before becoming Valkorian. Since his latest incarnation he has not needed to use "dark powers" to maintain his existence and it seems he doesn't use the Darkside as Valkorian either given his altered philosophy.

That's not what the quote says though, it says he used his "dark mastery of the Force to assume many forms."

But Valkorian hasn't assumed any new forms in this latest incarnation so how would it apply to him?

He was switching between forms (i.e. Emperor of the Eternal Empire & Emperor of the Sith) and bodies for supposedly centuries.

lmao @ people discrediting Plagueis' quote on the basis of it being a "blurb" but then resort to more or less the same thing to prove Valkorion > Vitiate.

Codex entries aren't blurbs, lol.

They're both in-universe, objective, and published by people independent of the original writers but within the same source nonetheless.

Codex entries are written by Bioware about Bioware material. Blurbs are written by some random intern. Yeah, totally the same.

I think the only way we're to resolve this issue is by contacting Leeland.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Codex entries are written by Bioware about Bioware material. Blurbs are written by some random intern. Yeah, totally the same.

lol If it's deemed fit to be on the back cover, it counts. Or at least shifts the burden of proof onto the opposition.

We shouldn't run to daddy any time we have a disagreement.

We're not Ant.

A shoutout to Beni and Sas for successfully anticipating and prosecuting my point in my absence.

I agree with Ziggy. This is going nowhere. Neither faction will never accept what the other is saying.

Valkorion is in the lead 12-6, with double the amount of votes Plagueis sports.

Okay.

Not sure.

What are Valkorion's feats which match unbalancing the Force itself anyway? Killing some pilots? One-shotting powerhouses like Darth Marr?

Failing to react to his own Force lightning.

Yeah, through intense meditation ad rituals, and someone on his tier of power doing it with him, and focusing on a tear in the Force already made by a Sith Lord before him.

Not to mention, it isn't combat applicable feat anyway, lmao.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, through intense meditation ad rituals, and someone on his tier of power doing it with him, and focusing on a tear in the Force already made by a Sith Lord before him.

Not to mention, it isn't combat applicable feat anyway, lmao.

That doesn't answer the question.

Absorbing the galaxy.

He didn't do that.

It's confirmed that he would have though.

There is a vision of Wrath II and a 300 year-long prophecy that supports it. Why are people taking Wrath I's visions showing millions of possible different scenarios so seriously, when Wrath II's show a sole and clear vision that reveals what will happen if Vitiate is not stopped?

Via ritual, nexus, prep, and the collected energy generated from a galactic war.

Plagueis unbalanced the Force on a universal level just by meditating.

Nah. He also used rituals, in conjunction with a a being already on his tier in power, and focused on a tear in the Force already created by someone that came before him.

Again, it isn't combat applicable, so who cares? Vitiate ritual was on a much greater scale so it required much greater preparation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Via ritual, nexus, prep, and the collected energy generated from a galactic war.

Plagueis unbalanced the Force on a universal level just by meditating.

Who gives a shit, both examples aren't quantifiable or usable in combat.

Where in the text is it said that P&S "focused on a tear in the Force" created by Tenebrous's master?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Via ritual, nexus, prep, and the collected energy generated from a galactic war.

Plagueis unbalanced the Force on a universal level just by meditating.

Not to mention Vitiate had to absorb the energies of thousands of Sith Lords, which "vastly increased his capabilities" as a Force user.

Originally posted by Sinious
There is a vision of Wrath II and a 300 year-long prophecy that supports it. Why are people taking Wrath I's visions showing millions of possible different scenarios so seriously, when Wrath II's show a sole and clear vision that reveals what will happen if Vitiate is not stopped? Originally posted by Beniboybling
Without contexts it doesn't actually prove anything, lel.

Wasn't that explicitly stated in Darth Plagueis.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who gives a shit, both examples aren't quantifiable or usable in combat.

Then which combat feats put Valk above Plagueis?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Wasn't that explicitly stated in Darth Plagueis. The tear is mention but nowhere am I seeing it linked to the ritual.

But thanks for giving me reason to elevate Tenebrous's master.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Then which combat feats put Valk above Plagueis?

Honestly, playing the feat game isn't going to help Plagueis' case at all, lmao. Revan has more impressive combat usable Force feats than Plagueis, and he is far below pre-Valkorion Vitiate.

Even Vader's Force feats are more impressive in actual combat.

@Beni/Temp: Ah, my mistake then.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Then which combat feats put Valk above Plagueis?

I dunno, all of them? Beating Revan, wiped out Ziost, controlling a planetary population, stomping a strike team, wiping out an army in a single attack, his Spire feat, blah blah he'd whoop Plagueis.

Like Solo said, feat wars is not the route you want to go down. Revan is comparable and perhaps superior to Plagueis and he's far inferior to Valkorion. Try a different tact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I dunno, all of them? Beating Revan, wiped out Ziost, controlling a planetary population, stomping a strike team, wiping out an army in a single attack, his Spire feat, blah blah he'd whoop Plagueis.

Like Solo said, feat wars is not the route you want to go down. Revan is comparable and perhaps superior to Plagueis and he's far inferior to Valkorion. Try a different tact.

Lol, you were just complaining about Plagueis's feats not being applicable, and then you bring up Ziost?

Only "beating Revan" is directly relevant to one vs. one fighting, and that was done on a dark side nexus. But Plagueis has a better implicit combat feat anyway, in that he intimidates Palpatine, and it's more plausible than not that his growth to RotS isn't monstrous. Plus he'd already essentially been so fast that Maul could barely perceive or in any manner react to him, while Vitiate gets blindsided by Meetra's lightsaber throw.

As for the idea that Revan has better combat feats than Plagueis, where do we see Revan vaporizing squads of soldiers with telekinesis, or deflecting fire from two hundred droids at the same time? We don't, so the idea that Vitiate beating Revan on a dark side nexus makes Valkorion better than Plagueis is entirely arbitrary.

Now the other way we can look at things besides the blurb is to use more general feats and power scaling as proxies for combat ability. We know that Plagueis is considered the most powerful sith of all time, your purely personal desire to not use publisher's blurbs, despite their having creative and legal licensing from the creators of Star Wars, aside, which puts him above Vitiate at the very least. His ability to unbalance the Force through meditation and force the creation of the Chosen One is crucial because it begs the question of why couldn't Valkorion do this despite having thousands of years to do so. The implied answer is that Valkorion wasn't powerful enough to. Because note that Plagueis and Sidious were not using some sort of "trick" to do this - they were literally wrestling with the Force via sheer willpower. That's a demonstration of raw power, and raw power correlates well with combat ability.

We also know, as mentioned previously, that Sidious is wary of Plagueis at this time. And it's unlikely that there's a massive gap between Palpatine in TPM and RotS; the precedent or reasoning behind that would be slight given that he's already in his fifties and would be spending most of his time as Chancellor; you could say that his power surge following Plagueis's death was massive, but that would require you to concede that EoTPM Sidious ~ RotS Sidious, which you clearly aren't willing to do. And Sidious by RotS has some pretty massive feats that dwarf Valkorion's.

So, no matter which way you slice it, Plagueis wins, and Vitiate dies:

1. Plagueis posed a sufficient threat to the Force for the Chosen One to arise; Valkorion did not.

2. Plagueis is explicitly more powerful than Vitiate by a blurb with legal authority within the Star Wars brand. This especially matters given that it's possible that Valkorion really is a sith and this whole thing is just an act, given the codex entry on him.

3. Plagueis's combat feats are clearly greater than Revan's, seeing as how he can vaporize squads of soldiers with telekinesis while injured, so Valkorion's best combat feat is null.

4. Even if they were close in raw power, Plagueis is a far superior combatant up close, so Valkorion has to rely on overwhelming his defenses outright, which is incredibly difficult to do without having a huge power gap, or he's f*cked. EDIT: oops, this is Force only, but this matters to an all-out fight anyway; in either case, Plagueis is still more agile, and has superior speed feats, which matter here as well.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111233150/4580267-5870481840-FoD7V.gif

Holy shit, that post is pretty bad lmao.

If Neph isn't going to respond, I'll gladly do so myself.

You clearly cannot perceive my brilliance.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Holy shit, that post is pretty bad lmao.

If Neph isn't going to respond, I'll gladly do so myself. I wanna see this go down. And yes, no way is Valkorion losing to Plagueis.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Holy shit, that post is pretty bad lmao.

If Neph isn't going to respond, I'll gladly do so myself.

The floor is yours. *bows*

Okay.

I'll reply tomorrow. I have some source checking and novel re-skimming to do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Absorbing the galaxy.

Wow tell me more.

D: The only bright side to me not getting to vote is the comedic effect evoked by the 1 "I'm not sure" vote.

In hindsight, Valkorion ttly wins, tho