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Nihilus is fully fed, and at his peak. DE Palpatine is in a new clone body, and at his peak.

Who win?

Palpatine.

Palpatine.

Sidious molests

Palpatine curbs. By ANH alone, he could, with a thought, crack the foundations of buildings large enough to house ships that were much larger than the Ravager.

Not to mention all the quotes putting him over Nihilus by RotS alone.

Nihilus.

Sidious is canonically more powerful, and obviously not a telekinetic amateur. Connect the dots.

I don't find that feat you mentioned compelling, character thoughts aren't always reliable evidence for feats they can do. Maul thought he could solo the Jedi temple for example. And I recall Plagueis thinking he and Sidious could solo the Council. Sidious thought he shook the stars, lol. Etc. But that feat wouldn't be impressive regardless, Sidious just cracking some foundations with TK is hardly the stuff of legends. Nihilus lifting a ship would require far more power, as would the other stuff to do with his fleet. That kind of power could easily equal cracking some foundations.

I also don't acknowledge him as more powerful. So you're 0 for 2.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't find that feat you mentioned compelling, character thoughts aren't always reliable evidence for feats they can do. Maul thought he could solo the Jedi temple for example. And I recall Plagueis thinking he and Sidious could solo the Council. Sidious thought he shook the stars, lol. Etc. But that feat wouldn't be impressive regardless, Sidious just cracking some foundations with TK is hardly the stuff of legends. Nihilus lifting a ship would require far more power, as would the other stuff to do with his fleet. That kind of power could easily equal cracking some foundations.

I also don't acknowledge him as more powerful. So you're 0 for 2.

I'm 0 for 2 because you aren't willing to accept evidence? lmfao

I think Sidious restraining himself from actually tearing apart the building suffices as evidence that he could do it. As for Nihilus lifting the ship being better, perhaps, but not when Sidious is doing it with a thought.

I don't care what you acknowledge. Numerous quotes put Palpatine above Nihilus, and many were published after KotOR II, so you don't have your "outdated" excuse. So it's a (well-cemented) fact.

Sidious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Palpatine.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine curbs. By ANH alone, he could, with a thought, crack the foundations of buildings large enough to house ships that were much larger than the Ravager.

Not to mention all the quotes putting him over Nihilus by RotS alone.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine curbs. By ANH alone, he could, with a thought, crack the foundations of buildings large enough to house ships that were much larger than the Ravager.

Not to mention all the quotes putting him over Nihilus by RotS alone.
And Lord Nyax thought that he could rip Coruscant apart, after experiencing a surge of energy.

That is not a convincing argument, my friend.

Sounds like he was in a state of euphoria, quite different.Originally posted by SunRazer


Sidious is canonically more powerful, and obviously not a telekinetic amateur. Connect the dots.

Sidious thoughts aren't facts, lmao.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine curbs. By ANH alone, he could, with a thought, crack the foundations of buildings large enough to house ships that were much larger than the Ravager

While I agree with your position this argument I say pretty shit.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Sidious thoughts aren't facts, lmao. Yet a thought is all he'll need to take Nihilus to the curb.

Neither.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Sidious thoughts aren't facts, lmao.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Lord Nyax thought that he could rip Coruscant apart, after experiencing a surge of energy.

That is not a convincing argument, my friend.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
While I agree with your position this argument I say pretty shit.

I think it's meritable when Sidious is pretty much doing all he can to stop himself from actually tearing the Palace apart.

That aside, given his recently discovered Lusankya feat, he's way out of Nihilus' league anyway.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I think Sidious restraining himself from actually tearing apart the building suffices as evidence that he could do it. As for Nihilus lifting the ship being better, perhaps, but not when Sidious is doing it with a thought.


Harming/destroying an object > lifting an object of similar size almost every time tbh barring the object being moved at some hilariously high speed for kinetic energy (which, for Nihilus' feat, is impossible to determine)

On the large, exaggerated, end of the scale?

Destroying Earth takes some 50 zettatons. Lifting a mass the size of earth's 1 meter takes 10-20 petatons IIRC

I could demonstrate the same with destroying a building vs moving it, but I feel this illustrates it as clearly *shrugs*

Hell

Let's discuss the Empire State Building as an example *shrugs*

https://www.google.com/#q=mass+of+empire+state+building

Approximately 331,000,000 kg? Lifting that a meter gives you about 0.775 tons of energy to lift it.

Or just shy of a conventional tomahawk cruise missile in yield (some 450 kg/0.45 tons according to the admittedly citationless wikipedia article *shrugs*)

https://youtu.be/8sa7ZX58Kk4

What do you all think are the odds of that kind of ordinance conventionally damaging the ESB significantly?

Not talking "take out the supports and watch it fall" I mean "wreck the material through the bomb's own power"

He didn't destroy it, though, just crack the foundations, which I assume would be the base. But it probably is better. I just wasn't interested in making an unnecessarily detailed case for it.

Sidious, obviously.

Even cracking the foundation of something the size of the Ravager is hilariously more powerful than lifting it, even in amplified gravity (gravity is a hilariously weak force tbh)

That kind of AOE is kind of the size of a moderately sized town and all

Especially if the foundation is some kind of metal, though concrete works just fine too

My analysis is largely just born of me procrastinating *shrugs*

Everything is more fun than reading scholarly articles when you have to actually read them

The Lusankya is over fifteen times the length of the Ravager. I wouldn't be surprised if Nihilus gets ragdolled, tbh.

Lol, this guy.

Originally posted by Azronger
The Lusankya is over fifteen times the length of the Ravager. I wouldn't be surprised if Nihilus gets ragdolled, tbh.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, this guy.

Someone's in denial.

^^
Let's not forget that Nihilus strength grew greatly after his Ravager showing, and that he had to fight against an intense gravity well to boot.

There is no proof his telekinetic powers increased.

Why wouldn't they? I thought you believed that all abilities scale off of power.

Unless you think that eating several planets and Katarr wouldn't effect his power.

Because the wound was ravaging him and devouring his life energies seemingly at a faster rate than he could replace them.

:I

Ehh, telekinetic power is probably the most basic form of the Force, and the de facto ruler for measuring raw power.

I find it hard to believe an increase in strength overall, wouldn't increase one's TK prowess to some degree.

Let me revise my statement.Originally posted by Beniboybling
There is no proof his powers increased. Excluding of course his mastery over drain.

So, it was never stated in any source that Nihilus strength in the Force increased over time?

None that I'm aware of.

So Nihilus was different than almost all jedi and sith in mythos? He didn't get more powerful as time progressed? Obviously as some point you regress and become weaker, but Nihilus was old after the Ravenger feat, thus why would we assume he didn't get more powerful?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because the wound was ravaging him and devouring his life energies seemingly at a faster rate than he could replace them. Or rather because Nihilus is different from almost all Jedi and Sith in mythos.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So Nihilus was different than almost all jedi and sith in mythos?




Uh. Yeah, he is.

Ummm okay, I know the ways in which he is different. Which doesn't include ANY reference to him not gaining in power as time progresses as we've seen for almost all jedi and sith. That is the difference I'm referring to.

The Exile also was a wound of force as Nihilus, and her powers obviously still increased.

I'm aware, but it's simply a matter of diminishing returns. The Exile grows more powerful from her wound yes, even more so if you take the DS path, but at the same time her wound grows ever larger, so it stands to reason that eventually the power the wound was consuming would outweigh the power she was gaining because of it.

Beni, you already conceded to me on another thread that Nihilus was growing more powerful. Do you now have a counter for the point I raised?

Either way, Sidious also grew more powerful after his Lusankya showing.

Oh yeah, that was that quote again? I'll find it...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Either way, Sidious also grew more powerful after his Lusankya showing.

What showing?

You don't need to be in denial.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh yeah, that was that quote again? I'll find it... Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't think it refers to Drain, since Kreia explicitly states that he will eventually "become too powerful for us to stop". Kreia knowingly engaged Nihilus with the Exile, since the latter was immune to his Drain, regardless of how powerful it was. On the other hand, if Nihilus was simply more powerful, he would have other avenues to win (ie. TK). I'm not actually seeing where this is said:
Not there.

That's not where the quote is from, lol. You're quoting from the DS Enclave scene, whereas I'm quoting from the scene on the Ebon Hawk where she discusses him with you.

Ah fair enough. However I still find that difficult to reconcile with this:
Which I believe is another dialogue option in those conversations.

There is a distinct difference between becoming an unstoppable power, and being doomed to inevitable oblivion. mmm

EDIT: The latter is also supported by Visas' own observations:

Glad we've agreed that they're not inclusive. Or synonymous.

...

The problem here is that if Nihilus was indeed growing steadily more powerful, his desire to feed would be an indulgence, rather than a necessity.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


EDIT: The latter is also supported by Visas' own observations:

Yeah. But we've already agreed that it's not synonymous, and not really relevant to fight scenarios like this.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The problem here is that if Nihilus was indeed growing steadily more powerful, his desire to feed would be an indulgence, rather than a necessity.

Not really. Each successive use of Drain empowers him but at the cost of taking control of him to a greater degree.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah. But we've already agreed that it's not synonymous, and not really relevant to fight scenarios like this. Synonymous with what, his Force abilities? I would disagree, I think its implicit that Nihilus was weakened by this little trap Kreia set, and a further denial of satiation at the hands of the Exile only weakened him more.Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. Each successive use of Drain empowers him but at the cost of taking control of him to a greater degree. But that's not what its doing, its devouring him, this is made clear by various sources, and its what presses him to feed, to replace his lost energies.

However if each successive use of drain did indeed empower him, then he'd become more and more able to satiate his hunger, but the reverse is true.

The candle that burns twice as hot burns half as long. His power was killing him faster and requiring greater nourishment as it grew, but it did grow.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Synonymous with what, his Force abilities? I would disagree, I think its implicit that Nihilus was weakened by this little trap Kreia set, and a further denial of satiation at the hands of the Exile only weakened him more.But that's not what its doing, its devouring him, this is made clear by various sources, and its what presses him to feed, to replace his lost energies.

The trap Kreia set in of itself didn't weaken Nihilus, lol. Nowhere is that suggested. As for Nihilus being weakened by the Exile, it wasn't so much the denial of satiation as it was the negation of his Drain, which I assume I would assume requires considerable effort and its use without any sort of reward would've exhausted Nihilus somewhat. The KotORCG describes him as being "psychically starved" when his powers are repelled.

Likewise, nowhere is it suggested that the hunger is reducing his power. This isn't just a matter of Force reserves, but a contest of wills. If it helps you to think of it like this, just imagine that it's Nihilus vs Drain in terms of willpower. Every time Nihilus uses Drain, Drain wins, and Nihilus succumbs in that battle of willpower, slowly. When Drain wins that battle completely, then Nihilus is a goner. Likewise, Drain starts to win whenever Nihilus "starves", or goes without feeding for a period of time. In other words, Nihilus is screwed - Drain wins either way. That's kind of how his character works.

Nowhere is it suggested that Nihilus' Force energies are lost with each Drain - Kreia outright says that he will feed until nothing is left, which is when he starves to oblivion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The trap Kreia set in of itself didn't weaken Nihilus, lol. Nowhere is that suggested.It's suggested right there, Nihilus suffering obviously =/= not good, and indeed its no coincidence that Telos just so happens to be a dead world (much like the Exile was herself a dead spot), of course that choice was deliberate.

Well you just disproved your own point there, "starved" needs no further explanation.

Being gobbled up by a wound would have that effect, its just the logical conclusion to make.

This "willpower" shit is just something you've shoehorned it, it was eating him, literally. Losing a battle of wills doesn't make your body disintegrate lmao.

Regardless I find Neph's analogy sense making, it stands to reason that Nihilus power would fluctuate in a series of peaks and troughs, but still be overall ascending. Maybe.Originally posted by SunRazer
Nowhere is it suggested that Nihilus' Force energies are lost with each Drain - Kreia outright says that he will feed until nothing is left, which is when he starves to oblivion. Lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's suggested right there, Nihilus suffering obviously =/= not good, and indeed its no coincidence that Telos just so happens to be a dead world (much like the Exile was herself a dead spot), of course that choice was deliberate.

Well, it was said that he could feed on it for temporary sustenance. Either way, the trap itself didn't actually make Nihilus weaker. It just wasn't the chance for the satiation that he wanted.



Him being weaker when he uses Drain without getting any sort of reward doesn't mean that he's constantly getting weaker.



What are you talking about?



Nihilus' body had disintegrated already, yet it was still "devouring" him. At the time of the game, he's pretty much just will in an armor. It's obvious what the nature of this devouring is. It's addicting, which would mean that it was slowly forcing him to use it more and more. That seems like a willpower thing to me.



Whatever you want to use to rationalize it, lol. My point is that there's nothing outright contradicting Kreia's point about Nihilus getting stronger. You're just bringing in random circumstantial stuff and speculation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, it was said that he could feed on it for temporary sustenance. Either way, the trap itself didn't actually make Nihilus weaker. It just wasn't the chance for the satiation that he wanted.It said it caused him to suffer, and then another denial of satiation makes him suffer more, and become weaker as consequence.

It only reinforces the fact that Nihilus needed sustenance.

The fact that the wound was consuming his life force.

Addictions don't consume your body, more lols.

Anyway its pretty clear what's going on, like Kreia says it devours him as it devours others i.e. it drains them of the Force, not of their mental faculties. And though Nihilus may no longer have physical form, he remains a Force entity.

I'm just dealing with the facts.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It said it caused him to suffer, and then another denial of satiation makes him suffer more, and become weaker as consequence.

It only reinforces the fact that Nihilus needed sustenance.

That doesn't contradict the point about Nihilus growing more powerful at all.



Even if that were so, that doesn't mean he got weaker.



We're talking about the dark side here. Addictions to using the dark side alone disfigure your body.



Which doesn't mean he got weaker, since, again, Kreia states that he's getting more powerful and may eventually surpass the ability of the Exile to defeat at all. Likely, Nihilus is just delaying oblivion with his Drain, but that doesn't mean he still doesn't grow more powerful in a general sense, since that does nothing to stop his condition anyway.

Sidious curbs him with an 19,000 meter ship

Originally posted by SunRazer
That doesn't contradict the point about Nihilus growing more powerful at all.

Even if that were so, that doesn't mean he got weaker.Not necessarily in a holistic sense but I think it makes clear his wound is a parasitic entity.

The dark side can effect the body physically and spiritually yes, clearly not limited to just messing with your head, and an affliction that causes your body to disintegrate is clearly macerating in the extreme.

And when you compare this with say, the case of Mother Talzin, what's happening is obvious.

Kreia's remark does lend credence to that yeah, but one might also argue that the devouring aspect of the wound stunted his growth.

And gaining power through drain is how he sustains his life energies and staves off his hunger.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not necessarily in a holistic sense but I think it makes clear his wound is a parasitic entity.

Parasitic to his physical and mental self. Not to his connection to the Force.



Talzin and Nihilus' cases have nearly nothing in common and revolve around two entirely different concepts. Heck, they exist in entirely separate continuities.



Stunting his growth is not the same as making him get weaker or stay constant.

I get the impression that Darth Nihilus was not stable; his raw power fluctuated according to the circumstances. His base strength is unclear because he was constantly siphoning energy of the crew of Ravager and needed to consume living beings on a massive scale from time to time on top of that otherwise he would starve.

Therefore, Darth Nihilus might be an extremely capable foe when he is well-fed but not so much when he is starving.

---

Vitiate is essentially a stable version of Darth Nihilus with added benefits of immortality, superior command of the Force and growth in power with passage of time.