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Simple question; I'm tryna gauge whether Darth Tyranus fits in the thick of things, so I wouldn't mind hearing other peoples opinions on the matter, and the general consensus of him on this board.

99.7% of Sidious

Most ancient Sith, Revan, Krayt etc. > Dooku ~ Vader > most other Sith.

Around Ragnos.

Well there are a lot of sith who could beat him: Pall, Hord, Nadd, possibly Ragnos, Revan, Vader, Plagueis & Tenny, Sid, Krayt. Maybe i forgot someone else. He's likely top 15 material, so he's pretty powerful but far from the top

He's like the stepping stone just before the high tiers.

Fairly high up. He's in the top 20-15 MVP Sith of history, and definitely insanely powerful, but not powerful enough to place him on the highest tier of Sith prowess, or the tier just under it.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He's like the stepping stone just before the high tiers.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He's like the stepping stone just before the high tiers.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He's like the stepping stone just before the high tiers.

Below Vader. Deeply so. uhuh

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Below Vader. Deeply so. uhuh

That's pretty much a fact babe. I was looking for a more concrete answer, hehe.

Low-end Top 15-20

Near the end of the top 10 tier.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That's pretty much a fact babe. I was looking for a more concrete answer, hehe. You'd be surprised what facts people refuse to accept these days.

Above pre-Nathema Vitiate.

I hold Dooku about equal to Darth Revan and Darth Malak.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You'd be surprised what facts people refuse to accept these days.

You sure about that? mmm

Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku ~ Vader >

Never mind.

I would definitely say he is right up there with the best of them, power wise. Aside from obvious individuals like sidious, krayt, valkorion/vitiate, caedus, vader, revan etc.... i firmly believe he could either stand toe to toe with or beat most other sith.

when it comes to force combat and lightsaber combat anyways.

He's up there; hard to compete with the wisened prodigy who was the prize pupil of the Jedi Order during it's Golden Age, before continuing on to study at the foot of the Dark Lord himself. Took the Chosen One of legend to put him down.

Originally posted by MythLord
Fairly high up. He's in the top 20-15 MVP Sith of history, and definitely insanely powerful, but not powerful enough to place him on the highest tier of Sith prowess, or the tier just under it.
This.

Above the Likes of Malgus, Traya and Sadow in overall combat ability, and likely around/barely below Muur.

He's below a lot of the great ancient Sith like Muur, Pall, Nadd, Kun, Ragnos (?) and Hord as well as the great modern Sith like Vader, Krayt, Jacen and the known Banites.

Then you have the arguable cases like with a lot of TOR Sith, Traya, Nyriss and others. Not sure about the Lost Tribe Sith, I recall 1 of them at least got some good hype as being a good chunk as powerful as Luke. And then there's Taalon.

I forgot to say that he's above Bane.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I forgot to say that he's above Bane.


Goes without saying.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You'd be surprised what facts people refuse to accept these days.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo

Never mind.

Lmao. Since when has Vader > Dooku been a fact?

2002

Quote?

Since 2005 when he beat Dooku and in ROTS.

More recently since LOTS when we learned Machine Vader is already > Anakin just a few years post ROTS.

Are people still going on about those quotes?

Originally posted by Azronger
Lmao. Since when has Vader > Dooku been a fact?

I don't recall Plagueis being stated as factually above someone like Vader either, but common sense is a thing, lmao.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I don't recall Plagueis being stated as factually above someone like Vader either, but common sense is a thing, lmao.

Lol.

He's right, tho.

Vaders feats easily outstrips Tyranus in the Force.

Not really.

Yes.

Dominating Starkiller is enough to place him > Tyranus, as is the Cathedral feat, if we take into account that Vader grows vastly after that.

Vader ragdolling a frigate buster before becoming a "far more formidable" fighter > any of Dooku's showings.

Collapsing a cathedral decades before his prime, while willing himself to live > any of Dooku's feats. Vader shits on Dooku and Maul simultaneously.

That cathedral feat happened while he was a sub-Mustafar-Vader faq... You can scale that to a version of Anakin that Dooku's Force b!tch stalemated.

No, you can't lmao.

Originally posted by MythLord
That cathedral feat happened while he was a sub-Mustafar-Vader faq...
Umm...proof?

You can, tho... Granted, Vader's sheer power-growth from doing sh!t like that is what makes him superior to Tyranus.

You're basing this off arbitrary rankings than anything else really. mmm

I don't see any Anakin besides the one that raped Dooku in RotS collapsing that cathedral in that condition.

Actually, I'm more basing it off of any Vader pre-ANH being a "shadow of Anakin", tbh.

Anakin's already done similar things just by yelling at Dooku while angry, the same anger that was noted as hindering him.

Anyways, the only reason why I don't see someone like Dooku pulling that sh!t off in that condition is due to his lack-luster durability in juxtaposition to Vader, not to mention Vader's insane drive at the time(wanting to find his wife and whatnot, his ultimate motivation, I'd imagine).

Originally posted by MythLord
Actually, I'm more basing it off of any Vader pre-ANH being a "shadow of Anakin", tbh.
Yeah, of Anakin, but as of Mustafar he was already Vader.
Also, it seems like the quote refers to Skill.

And power, tbh. Further supported by Lucas.

I'm pretty sure Fightsaber was referring specifically to his dueling prowess, hence, the FIGHTSABER, lal. Plus, as Urs says, it was prolly referring to Anakin as of his peak anyway, you know; the same one that raped Dooku.

Anakin didn't rape Dooku until he got enraged, dear. You people just have no idea how to interpret Stover properly and take every hyperbole legitimately...

And Lucas seems to think that Vader is ~ Tyranus and inferior to Anakin in power, and we all just looove using Lucas' quotes about Vader's power, don't we my love?

Anakin was winning with or without the rage, it's just with the rage he completely demolished him. Plus, as Ant and others have proved, "Zonakin" arguably became a standard thing for Anakin after the events of Tyranus' killing.

It's a good thing Lucas isn't in charge anymore, and evidence clearly point to the contrary. Plus, being more analogous with Dooku and Maul than Sheev, doesn't make him their equal, use your brain, lal.

Originally posted by MythLord
Anakin didn't rape Dooku until he got enraged, dear. You people just have no idea how to interpret Stover properly and take every hyperbole legitimately...

And Lucas seems to think that Vader is ~ Tyranus and inferior to Anakin in power, and we all just looove using Lucas' quotes about Vader's power, don't we my love?

Dooku was winning until they broke the saberlock.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Anakin was winning with or without the rage, it's just with the rage he completely demolished him. Plus, as Ant and others have proved, "Zonakin" arguably became a standard thing for Anakin after the events of Tyranus' killing.

Yes, but winning without it was extremely hard for him, given how Tyranus knocked him on his ass twice and managed to stalemate him/fend him off effectively.
This is backed up by the New Essential Chronology that notes Dooku only fought for dear life when Anakin got enraged.

And there really is no proof Zonakin was his standard, afterwards.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
It's a good thing Lucas isn't in charge anymore, and evidence clearly point to the contrary. Plus, being more analogous with Dooku and Maul than Sheev, doesn't make him their equal, use your brain, lal.

Yet you use Lucas to prove Vader is 4/5s of Sidious. o.o
And that means Tyranus, Vader and Maul are all fairly close. Granted, Maul has reached a new, all-time low... Tyranus hasn't. His low is in the past.

Dooku was never winning against Anakin, but per pretty much all sources bar the novel and comic, Anakin was at most holding the slight edge.

Lol Stover makes it as if Dooku began to win after taunting him. Sidious's involvement cost him the win.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku was never winning against Anakin,

Right, except for the movie of course.

Dooku landing a leeway kick on Anakin that floors him for a few seconds isn't a win.

The script also makes it clear that Dooku isn't winning.

Wow, how KMC has changed...
Dooku used to be a god on here.

Originally posted by red8
Wow, how KMC has changed...
Dooku used to be a god on here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku landing a leeway kick on Anakin that floors him for a few seconds isn't a win.

The script also makes it clear that Dooku isn't winning.

Doing it after forcing his saber back so hard that Anakin unbalances while ragdolling Kenobi is though. So is blocking Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time with one hand while they make clear grimaces of exertion, when he was able to actually force Obi-Wans lightsaber up to block Anakins like it wasn't even there. So is taunting Anakin while in a bladelock while forcing his saber back enough that Anakin has to lean backwards to avoid it while moaning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Doing it after forcing his saber back so hard that Anakin unbalances while ragdolling Kenobi is though.

Yes, quite an overlooked feat. It obviously owes much to Dooku's mastery of leverage, but regardless, that's a momentary advantage, not a win. He could've sent Anakin flying with a kick, but that doesn't mean he would've won the fight.

I mean, right before that, Anakin was driving Dooku rapidly up the stairs. Dooku does manage to gain the advantage in critical moments, but that doesn't mean he was winning for most of the fight - he was being driven back. It's still to his credit that he can perform these showings, of course.



Dooku was controlling Obi-Wan's saber to move it into the path of Anakin's. That doesn't have anything to do with beating Anakin.



You can taunt whenever you want, lol. That doesn't decide whether or not you're winning. Anakin leaned backwards briefly, not throughout the entire saberlock, by the way.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, quite an overlooked feat. It obviously owes much to Dooku's mastery of leverage, but regardless, that's a momentary advantage, not a win. He could've sent Anakin flying with a kick, but that doesn't mean he would've won the fight.

I mean, right before that, Anakin was driving Dooku rapidly up the stairs. Dooku does manage to gain the advantage in critical moments, but that doesn't mean he was winning for most of the fight - he was being driven back. It's still to his credit that he can perform these showings, of course.

Dooku was controlling Obi-Wan's saber to move it into the path of Anakin's. That doesn't have anything to do with beating Anakin.



You can taunt whenever you want, lol. That doesn't decide whether or not you're winning. Anakin leaned backwards briefly, not throughout the entire saberlock, by the way.

If Dooku didn't have to deal with Obi-Wan he likely could have ended the fight right there. Besides, I only said that he was winning for most of the fight, not that he won.

Retreating isn't the same as losing. Theres no evidence Dooku was being driven back instead of just tactically conceding ground against an aggressive duelist.

He blocked Anakin with 1 hand while doing that to Obi-Wan, which suggests he was comfortably blocking Anakin's strikes.

Yeah, because he was being pushed back. The sabers were closer to Anakin's face and he leaned back to avoid them when they moved towards him. Thats called losing a bladelock.

I think we can also count forcing Anakin back enough that he can force push Obi-Wan away. Its more evidence of him controlling the fight and dominating the pair.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If Dooku didn't have to deal with Obi-Wan he likely could have ended the fight right there. Besides, I only said that he was winning for most of the fight, not that he won.

Not really. There's lots of moments where characters fall down but come back up and keep fighting, sometimes even fighting on to win.



Well, there's the script.



He blocked Anakin's strike by driving his and Obi-Wan's blade into it, which interrupted the swing and weakened the kinetic energy it produced. That doesn't mean he was comfortably blocking Anakin's strikes at all.



He wasn't doing that the entire time in the bladelock, as I said.



Saw what you did there. Terrible pun for somebody who claims to be British.

Anyways, you mean this?

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5493505-5557045384-giphy.gif

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. There's lots of moments where characters fall down but come back up and keep fighting, sometimes even fighting on to win.

Anakin was down and stunned long enough for Dooku to blast him with lightning or something. And in that position Dooku would have gained the advantage by attacking him as he's regaining his feet. But I was more thinking that While Anakin is staggering back and pinwheeling his arms Dooku could hit him with his saber.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, there's the script.

That specific sequence isn't noted. And I'd say the script isn't really realised well in the movie in this regard.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He blocked Anakin's strike by driving his and Obi-Wan's blade into it, which interrupted the swing and weakened the kinetic energy it produced. That doesn't mean he was comfortably blocking Anakin's strikes at all.

Yeah, forcing Obi-Wan's blade up so he can block both of them at the same time with 1 hand with no problem certainly doesn't imply superiority.

Come on, don't be petty about this. It's one of the most clear displays of superiority out there. Also if I read you correctly you all you said was that Dooku blocked him. How is blocking his saber "weakening his kinetic energy"? He just blocked his attack. This doesn't mitigate the showing.

Regardless, its a display of Dooku winning the fight. Regardless of if its through power or skill.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He wasn't doing that the entire time in the bladelock, as I said.

So?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Saw what you did there. Terrible pun for somebody who claims to be British.

Anyways, you mean this?

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5493505-5557045384-giphy.gif

Yes.

I wonder how Neph can argue Dooku was winning that fight yet rank him so low lmao.

1. Anakin could've blocked with his lightsaber. The person who wrote and coordinated that fight also has Anakin above Dooku, for what it's worth.

2. The script does depict the overall fight, though, which is Dooku and Obi-Wan tiring as Anakin relentlessly comes at the Count.

3. It's a moment of Dooku expertly using leverage to control Obi-Wan's saber, I'll give you that. Blocking a strike does not mean you're winning at all, lol. If there was such a disparity to begin with, Dooku would've simply done that repeatedly, not as a one-off.

I do see your point, which is that Dooku had the advantage at more points than Anakin/Obi-Wan did. Although Anakin and Obi-Wan were slowly and interruptedly driving Dooku back throughout the fight, so the overall fight was in favor of the duo. Dooku was just really good at leverage and used that at critical points in the duel.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I wonder how Neph can argue Dooku was winning that fight yet rank him so low lmao.

He ranks the other two quite low as well.

I just rank the duo lower, lol.

Of course, the TOR phag always finds a way to force his twisted hierarchy.

So... Malgus > Dooku > Anakin?

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Anakin could've blocked with his lightsaber. The person who wrote and coordinated that fight also has Anakin above Dooku, for what it's worth.

Lol, doubt it. Looking at the scene Dooku definitely would have been able to cut him. And Gillard's incompetence doesn't matter. Unless he changed his mind or Lucas told him to show things differently, he just flat out didn't display his later statements in the film. If he wanted to show Anakin being better throughout the fight then he utterly ****ing failed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. The script does depict the overall fight, though, which is Dooku and Obi-Wan tiring as Anakin relentlessly comes at the Count.

At no point does Dooku show any indication of tiredness in the movie. It's almost as if Lucas wrote the script in a single draft a few weeks before filming or something.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. It's a moment of Dooku expertly using leverage to control Obi-Wan's saber, I'll give you that. Blocking a strike does not mean you're winning at all, lol. If there was such a disparity to begin with, Dooku would've simply done that repeatedly, not as a one-off.

It's put in the movie (unlike all these times when Anakin was supposedly whooping Dooku), its obviously intended to show us how the fight is going. What do you think it displays? Because to me Dooku is showing the clear advantage. He isn't just controlling Obi-Wan's saber, he's doing it while blocking Anakin, with a single hand and no indication of effort. It's inarguable that it's a display of him winning at that point.

Dooku does do it repeatedly. He never shows any effort in blocking Anakin's strikes, he pushes him back hard enough that he almost falls over and he's winning the saberlock at the end. When Anakin's losing in strength, and consistently at that, that should tell you how the fight is going.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I do see your point, which is that Dooku had the advantage at more points than Anakin/Obi-Wan did. Although Anakin and Obi-Wan were slowly and interruptedly driving Dooku back throughout the fight, so the overall fight was in favor of the duo. Dooku was just really good at leverage and used that at critical points in the duel.

As far as I'm concerned, Anakin and Obi-Wan never had the advantage until after the bladelock. Even if you think Anakin was driving Dooku back on the stairs, right after that Dooku pushes Anakin back so hard he pinwheels and almost falls over.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
So... Malgus > Dooku > Anakin?

Yes. Though obviously fights are more rock-paper-scissors than A>B>C.

Gross.

From my point of view Anakin > Malgus is gross!

Tell me when Malgus is the most powerful Jedi of all time

I can't cuz he's dead.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He never shows any effort in blocking Anakin's strikes, he pushes him back hard enough that he almost falls over and he's winning the saberlock at the end. When Anakin's losing in strength, and consistently at that, that should tell you how the fight is going. Actually if you pay attention to the fight, Anakin blows straight through Dooku's guard when he's pushing him up the stairs, and the only times he appears to deflect Anakin's strikes easily was when he had advantageous leverage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can't cuz he's dead.
Another win for the PT brigade.