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Legends. All out.

Vitiate & Revan as of the Revan novel; Sidious as of the ROTS novel and peak!Plagueis.

Team 2
Shall I give reasons?
BTW, make it SWTOR Vitate or Valkorion, lmao.

Sidious or Plagueis solo. Either way,

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111233150/4580267-5870481840-FoD7V.gif

Team 2 steamroll

Nice .gif. 👍

Yes, reasons are always encouraged.

By power chain, RotS Sidious > EoTPM Sidious > Plagueis > SWTOR Vitiate > novel Vitiate > Revan > Sirak, per a combination of official sources.

My reason:
Originally posted by The Ellimist
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111233150/4580267-5870481840-FoD7V.gif
Seriously, make it SWTOR or KoftFE Vitate, lol.

Hmm.

A quarter of the votes favor team 1. Reasons?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Hmm.

A quarter of the votes favor team 1. Reasons?

That's a funny way of saying 1 lol.

Yeah SWTOR Viti + SoR Revan would make this a good thread, but it's just easy pickings for team PT

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's a funny way of saying 1 lol.

It's now 2.

WTF

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Yeah SWTOR Viti + SoR Revan would make this a good thread, but it's just easy pickings for team PT

How so? Don't you have SWTOR/KOTFE Valky as being well above peak!Sidious?

Inb4 "vitiate solo's"

Originally posted by The_Tempest
How so? Don't you have SWTOR/KOTFE Valky as being well above peak!Sidious?

As Vitiate, he absolutely can't get past the dozens or so quotes that list Palpatine as the most powerful Sith Lord ever. As Valkorion, he still has the DE End Note quotes to deal with, but thanks to how archaic they are, one could argue around it.

And with RotS "most powerful master of evil, tht ever used sith powers".

Actually the quote says "greatest", IIRC. "Greatest" doesn't necessarily have to be synonymous with "powerful".

I'll search. Wait shortly.
Edit: Yes, it was. Still don't see how the gap between Valkorion and SWTOR Vitate is that big.

But it probably does mean that in this case. Regardless, Sidious's feats are far superior.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
How so? Don't you have SWTOR/KOTFE Valky as being well above peak!Sidious?

I have SWTOR Vitiate around ROTS Sheev, Ziost a little closer to ROTJ, and Valkorion a little above DE. Hence why having SoR Revan (who I have just barely below if not equal to Plagueis) as a teammate would make this a solid fight IMO

Don't you have Valk > Luke?

In Force-only, not overall. Tbh I still have a hard time believing that Luke>DE Sheev in Force prowess.

Team 1 has half the votes, but no one has deigned to provide an actual argument.

That's pretty cringy

Most of Valkoriate's defenders are.

http://67.media.tumblr.com/54fa892e5b6a1e8e013a4f2cfe6330ba/tumblr_n94trq5qdd1si2x44o2_500.gif

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sidious or Plagueis solo. Either way,

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111233150/4580267-5870481840-FoD7V.gif

Either solos.

Of which team?

More votes and the ratio endures.

6 people have voted for team 1 but none defend them?

Team 1

At last.
Mind providing reasons?

9 votes for team one, in this scenario?

Love for Vitiate and Revan is strong. Very strong.

Man, that's just sad. There should really be no more than 3, but that's what happens when you have a sliver of hope for KMC

The poll is indeed surprising considering how Elm and co has been dominating most of the threads regarding TOR vs PT.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Either solos.
What a stupid comment.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
9 votes for team one, in this scenario?

Love for Vitiate and Revan is strong. Very strong.

Given the lack of public defense, it looks like their fear of Sheev is stronger.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Team 1
...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given the lack of public defense, it looks like their fear of Sheev is stronger.

Or they're just trolling. Tbh this is a facetious thread lol.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
At last.
Mind providing reasons? Reason? Vitiate can contend with Sidious, and I hold Revan above Plagueis. So Revan kills Plagueis (in one hell of a fight.) And then they tag team Palpatine.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
... You overrate Sidious immensely, as does Azronger. Your opinion, because of that, means little to me as far as Sidious is concerned.

Either of team 2 is stronger than either of team 1, so yeah, they win pretty definitively.

Look guys! Palpatine dies. Ok?

Your trolling is terrible. You need to learn a bit more from Elm and Carthage before you make a fool of yourself. Well, before you do it again.

Originally posted by SunRazer


Your trolling is terrible. You need to learn a bit more from Elm and Carthage before you make a fool of yourself. Well, before you do it again.
So you dismiss the possibility of Palpatine's demise in this confrontation?

I dismiss the possibility that you received an education.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I dismiss the notion that you got an education.
You did not answer my question.

This isn't Q&A.

Legend, you're trying too hard.

Originally posted by darthbane77
You overrate Sidious immensely, as does Azronger. Your opinion, because of that, means little to me as far as Sidious is concerned.
Lol @me overrating Sidious, but not Plagueis.
Sidious > Plagueis > Vitate > Revan.

Yikes. Leg's trolling is as in dire need of improvement as his arguments facepalm

Originally posted by darthbane77
Reason? Vitiate can contend with Sidious, and I hold Revan above Plagueis. So Revan kills Plagueis (in one hell of a fight.) And then they tag team Palpatine.

You put book!Revan above Plagueis?

Still waiting for a decent argument here, people.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What a stupid comment.

Casually dodging admitting team one dies, I like it.

You pussy. No son of mine

EDIT: Depends. :maybe

You're back to having Revan > Plagueis again Ant?

lal.

Honestly, I have no clue where to rank Revan, Vitiate, or Plagueis at the moment.

Plagueis' rating, in my opinion, relies on whether or not you take novel blurbs at fave value.

Without the blurb, Plagueis is clearly below Vitiate as far as accolades and feats goes, and Revan can easily be argued as being his combative superior.

How do ****ers in the SW fandom treat shit when a feat/accolade is absent from a different version of the same source?

Because for the life of me, I can't find Plagueis' accolade on the back of my paper back *shrugs*

Star Wars is something of a bizarre canon, hence my asking

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Without the blurb, Plagueis is clearly below Vitiate as far as accolades and feats goes, and Revan can easily be argued as being his combative superior. You are deserving of -40 health for this statement

Could have sworn you were dead :hmm

I luv you too ILS. <3

Sidious solos

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Plagueis' rating, in my opinion, relies on whether or not you take novel blurbs at fave value.

Without the blurb, Plagueis is clearly below Vitiate as far as accolades and feats goes, and Revan can easily be argued as being his combative superior.

Still waiting on how unbalancing the Force itself and presenting a cosmological threat sufficient to necessitate the immaculate conception of the Chosen One, .i.e. space Jesus, is below one-shotting powerhouses like Darth Marr.

Even if you don't think Plagueis is super powerful, to not give this to team 2, you'd have to conclude that RotS Sidious >>>>>>> EoTPM Sidious, even though he spent most of his time sitting on his ass as Supreme Chancellor. You know how many hours high-level government officials work, right? Where do we get this massive power leap from?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Where do we get this massive power leap from?

You're new to fiction I see :hmm

Power ups and rate at which they occur have no rhyme or reason to them in just about any series I've ever read/watched/played

It'd be nice to try pinning some semblance of real world progression to plot power ups, but that's about as nonsensical as this hobby *shrugs*

Originally posted by ILS
You are deserving of -40 health for this statement

My nigga.

@Elm: Except, he didn't unbalance the Force solo. The corruptness of the Republic also had a role in the imbalance, he also had help from Darth Sidious and they acclomplished it through months of intense meditation and rituals. It isn't really combatively quantifiable, or applicable.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Power ups and rate at which they occur have no rhyme or reason to them in just about any series I've ever read/watched/played

Saying that a power leap *could* have happened =/= providing us with evidence that it actually did.

In either case, the first part of my post went conveniently unanswered.

Plagueis presented a cosmological threat to the Force
Valkorion...can kill Darth Marr with lightning

Even if we're ignoring proxies for raw power and looking exclusively at direct combat feats, a heavily injured, pre-prime Plagueis can vaporize half a dozen soldiers with uncharged telekinesis, while Valkorion can...um...kill some pilots with his lightning.

Yeah, Plagueis wins.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Even if you don't think Plagueis is super powerful, to not give this to team 2, you'd have to conclude that RotS Sidious >>>>>>> EoTPM Sidious, even though he spent most of his time sitting on his ass as Supreme Chancellor. You know how many hours high-level government officials work, right? Where do we get this massive power leap from?

Why would we conclude that, when Sidious isn't even > Revan?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Saying that a power leap *could* have happened =/= providing us with evidence that it actually did.

I wasn't actually discussing if he had one or not?

But ok

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
@Elm: Except, he didn't unbalance the Force solo. The corruptness of the Republic also had a role in the imbalance,


As opposed to when Vitiate only had the benefit of the Republic getting nearly wiped out several times, the Jedi Order being purged, an eldritch sith lord literally trying to eat the Force, etc.



Vitiate had a thousand years with the help of a powerful nexus, the Dread Masters and an entire Empire of sith, and all he could do was make a few lightning storms.



It's a useful proxy for raw power. Regardless, Valkorion doesn't have any combat feats that involve beating opponents on the caliber of Plagueis.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
I wasn't actually discussing if he had one or not?

But ok

Your case is predicated on that, given that we can otherwise do some powerscaling from RotS Sidious.

Vitiate never attempted to unbalance the Force. So it's kind of stupid to act as if him not doing so is a mark against him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your case is predicated on that, given that we can otherwise do some powerscaling from RotS Sidious.

I'm not making a case and was arguing the semantics of one part of your post?

This is kind of novel, haven't encountered tunnel vision like this in a while :hmm

EDIT - Do admit I'm not exactly the easiest person to follow along with though *shrugs*

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate never attempted to unbalance the Force. So it's kind of stupid to act as if him not doing so is a mark against him.

Let's not pretend you never use Vitiate feats that the other side doesn't have for lack of opportunity. The point is that where Vitiate focused his energies, it wasn't as impressive.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
I'm not making a case and was arguing the semantics of one part of your post?


Well if you're going to jump into an exchange, sometimes people will try to bring it back to the topic...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would we conclude that, when Sidious isn't even > Revan?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FormalTatteredAphid-size_restricted.gif

On topic

In KMC

News to me *shrugs*

Originally posted by Trocity
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FormalTatteredAphid-size_restricted.gif

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/538/716/7f5.gif

Elm, you do know the unbalance was caused by the tampering with Midichlorians, right? Vitiate literally didn't know of the means to unbalance the Force the way Sidious and Plagueis did. Moreover, Vitiate main goal was to eat the entire galaxy; he didn't particularly care about, or try to unbalance the Force.

Using the unbalance thing as the crux of your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Elm, you do know the unbalance was caused by the tampering with Midichlorians, right? Vitiate literally didn't know of the means to unbalance the Force the way Sidious and Plagueis did. Moreover, Vitiate main goal was to eat the entire galaxy; he didn't particularly care about, or try to unbalance the Force.

Using the unbalance thing as the crux of your argument is fundamentally flawed.

If your case is that there's no side by side comparison of feats, that equally applies to all of Vitiate's that you think are so impressive.

But the point is that Plagueis's best feats and accolades are more impressive in their domain than Vitiate's are.

btw did you ever respond to that thing you were gonna replace Neph on?

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
How do ****ers in the SW fandom treat shit when a feat/accolade is absent from a different version of the same source?

Because for the life of me, I can't find Plagueis' accolade on the back of my paper back *shrugs*

Star Wars is something of a bizarre canon, hence my asking

Still curious about this btw :hmm

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Elm, you do know the unbalance was caused by the tampering with Midichlorians, right? Vitiate literally didn't know of the means to unbalance the Force the way Sidious and Plagueis did. Moreover, Vitiate main goal was to eat the entire galaxy; he didn't particularly care about, or try to unbalance the Force.

Using the unbalance thing as the crux of your argument is fundamentally flawed.

So what you're saying is Vitiate devouring Natheema and Ziost doesn't even place him above Dooku?

Lmao. Sel beating ass.

Originally posted by Selenial
So what you're saying is Vitiate devouring Natheema and Ziost doesn't even place him above Dooku?

You're a better debater than this last I saw :hmm

Granted, the strawman could just be trolling because "lolKMC" kind of mindset *shrugs*

I can actually stick a figure to vaporizing/atomizing and consuming the energy of entire populations (the vaporization/atomization being the after effect of said energy being consumed)

I can't even begin to pretend to know how much power over some kind of time manipulating some weird organism even translates into an energy figure

One translates into something measurable (if not still generic magic in nature), the other requires more data to gauge on account of being entirely a product of the setting

Again though, no actual stakes in who kills who

Just more semantics because that's the only part of this hobby that interests me anymore

I do have Dooku above pre-Nathema Vitiate.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I do have Dooku above pre-Nathema Vitiate.

He's more or less featless before gorging on what was up to that time (before the Valley of the Jedi was a thing) the greatest Dark Side nexus ever

Well, it was either Nathema that was the nexus briefly before being consumed, or Vitiate

Been a while since I saw the TOR encyclopedia quote

Still, Dooku being superior to Pre-Nathema Vitiate is hardly saying much *shrugs*

Originally posted by Selenial
So what you're saying is Vitiate devouring Natheema and Ziost doesn't even place him above Dooku?

Waaaaat? xD

I may have to finally cast my vote in favor of team 2 if no one can offer a compelling argument in favor of team 1.

What if Revan uses both sides of the Force?

Well that settles it.

Team 2 ftw.

I'm still intrigued how 10 people voted for team 1. I myself voted for team 2.

I like how Sheev fans still pretend unbalancing the Force is comparable to literally wiping out all life in the galaxy and draining the power from billions of stars.

But hey.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I like how Sheev fans still pretend unbalancing the Force is comparable to literally wiping out all life in the galaxy and draining the power from billions of stars.

But hey.

If you're referring to Vitiate, he needed a galactic war, a thousand years of prep, a nexus, and then the collective energies of galactic civilization to try to pull that off. Sidious and Plagueis just meditated for a while, and sure, maybe they took advantage of some corruption or something.

BTW, Sidious in Dark Empire was basically stated to be capable of doing that too, but he didn't need a galactic war.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm still intrigued how 10 people voted for team 1. I myself voted for team 2.

Judging from the lack of responses from the team 1 supporters, we can safely infer that it wasn't facts or evidence that compelled their votes.

I guess owes to bias or trolling. Shameful.

They are clearly afraid of Sheev

It's spite against Sheev's victory, like the Japanese holdouts in world war 2 howling in futility against the American machine.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Judging from the lack of responses from the team 1 supporters, we can safely infer that it wasn't facts or evidence that compelled their votes.

I guess owes to bias or trolling. Shameful.
Far worse than my bias towards Jacen.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Shameful.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
As Vitiate, he absolutely can't get past the dozens or so quotes that list Palpatine as the most powerful Sith Lord ever. As Valkorion, he still has the DE End Note quotes to deal with, but thanks to how archaic they are, one could argue around it.

Team 1. Because all of the referenced quotes are either coming from characters and are, thus, questionable or - for the newer stuff - don't even acknowledge the existance of Vitiate. Or both. Means none of them can be used to prove anything.

So we go back to the realm of feats, where Vitiate makes Sidious and Plagueis look like cheap pseudo-Sith in both combat related feats and esoteric powers / knowledge, thanks to him being, you know, a force prodigy who absorbed the power of 8,000 Sith Lord and then took a millenium to practice his skills and exercise his power.

And while I doubt that Vitiate would solo this, unless he attempts some mindrape on Sidious and Plagueis, those two would still go down, mainly through a lack of variety in terms of offensive force powers against two opponents who can tank quite a lot in terms of force attacks being thrown in their direction.

Nai the coward makes an appearance. The guy who ran from all Trek battlezone challenges yet still tried to debate the topic anyways while claiming it's a stomp without the balls to see it through.

Originally posted by Nai
Team 1. Because all of the referenced quotes are either coming from characters and are, thus, questionable or - for the newer stuff - don't even acknowledge the existance of Vitiate. Or both. Means none of them can be used to prove anything.

All of history acknowledges Vitiate. So does the Darth Plagueis novel, and the Legends Epic Collection.



Care to elaborate? Vitiate having 8000 Sith inside him and a longer lifespan than Sidious haven't made his feats superior - at all.



Based on what can Vitiate mindrape these two? And how does a lack of variety (which they don't lack) correlate into them losing, when they're simply more powerful? And Palpatine can tank infinitely more than anyone here.

Nai's dismissing of the quotes is predicated on the idea that the out-of-universe publication date matters to the point where a quote literally doesn't count if it describes something to which new information was added (even if the new information doesn't contradict the old). This sort of breaks suspension of disbelief and renders a continuous universe that we can argue from very difficult to form.

I think in a situation like that, coming closest to the truth would be accepting that the authorial intention regarding the more recent information matters more than what the older source was meant to cover (assuming that one doesn't out-canon the other). So, take Plagueis vs novel Vitiate for an example: questioning whether Drew intended to keep Vitiate within "Plagueis > all the sith who came before" scaling or not rather than simply dismissing the older source + comparison analysis' of both characters' showings would reveal how powerful these characters are, imo. I can see why this might not be practical for debating though, since authorial intent could be left to speculation by the author, which would turn the whole debate (that concerns said author's novel) into a discussion held in a shitty literature class.

So Nai answered the challenge; Azronger has engaged. Anyone else willing to come to Team 1's defense?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If you're referring to Vitiate, he needed a galactic war, a thousand years of prep, a nexus, and then the collective energies of galactic civilization to try to pull that off. Sidious and Plagueis just meditated for a while, and sure, maybe they took advantage of some corruption or something.

BTW, Sidious in Dark Empire was basically stated to be capable of doing that too, but he didn't need a galactic war.

I'll be seeing to this farce soon enough.

What farce would that be? mmm

The false statements and general inaccuracy, don't worry I won't actually argue Vitiate > Sidious.

You know your place; good.

You may proceed. But tread lightly....

Revan did that Force balancing shit with his mere presence in SoR. Not sure why we're in awe over it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan did that Force balancing shit with his mere presence in SoR. Not sure why we're in awe over it.

Did the Force resort to immaculate conception to stop him?

No, since it wasn't necessary. The Force recognized the influence of the coalition strike team, as per Spindrall.

That being said, it seemed to actively partake in Revan's downfall, showing the protagonist visions and randomly changing ship coordinates to that where Revan was located.

Ant, can you kindly provide and cite the hard evidence that proves Revan's mere presence upset the balance of the Force and the cosmological influence of the strike team sent to stop him?

I should hope not.
Because that's what I expected. Now he'll need to prove that a disturbance in the Force is the same as sweeping cosmological imbalance.

BTW, if you're watching, AP, you'll note that Neph was diligent enough to cite the evidence he provided.

That's some Savage level shit.

I copy pasted from Ants respect thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I copy pasted from Ants respect thread.

That certainly explains the diligence. You're much too bitter and hostile to cite sources of your own effort.

But I do appreciate the info.

That's a disturbance in the Force, lmao. Not a universal shift. Revan didn't bend God to his will, like Plagueis and Sidious did

Originally posted by Azronger
All of history acknowledges Vitiate. So does the Darth Plagueis novel, and the Legends Epic Collection.


And which of them contains the definitive quote saying that Sidious is more powerful than him?



Right.
I must have missed the feats of RotS Sidious that beat mindcontrolling 8,000 Sith Lords and then drain them with an entire planet worth of people and other lifeforms to start with. Instakilling a dozen of the most powerful Sith Lords in the universe with a single force attack - Vitiate has done that. Becoming immortal and being capable of granting immortality to others? No problem for Vitiate, where even DE Sidious did utterly fail.

Sidious' only claim to fame is unbalancing the Force. An act that was neither performed alone, nor would it have been possible without consent of the Force itself, who didn't offer any kind of resistance to the manipulations of the Sith but, instead, pretty much gave in. Woohoo. Wonder what good that would do in battle.



Based on the fact that he was capable of mindraping everybody else, even notoriously strong-willed characters such as Revan. So what exactly stops him from doing the same to Sidious and Plagueis? Wishful thinking? There is not a single instance in which his mind-control has failed on somebody who had experienced it before or was taught by someone who did. Neither of that is true for Sidious or Plagueis.

And, you know, maybe I should point out that, while Plagueis certainly sees himself on par - and even above - the Ancient Sith after shifting the balance of the Force, that is not only mereley his opinion but the facts demonstrate, that neither Plagueis nor Sidious did ever reach Vitiate's level of mastery (hint: immortality, granting immortality), even in singular aspects they did strive to master.



Arguing in circles is certainly funny. But since you fail to provide evidence for the idea that Plagueis and Sidious are more powerful than Vitiate and Revan, one can just wonder why we would assume this as given fact.

And Sidious can tank "infinitely more" than anyone here? Not only is that quite the exaggaration, but it also begs for prove. Especially when comparing him to Revan. Seriously?

Revan could just absorb (and redirect) lightning powerful enough to reduce armored soldiers to ash in split seconds, yet Vitiate was hitting him with an attack far more powerful than that. The result? Revan's skin "began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask". Despite that fact, he immediately after that starts to heal himself and is back on his feet in less than a minute.



Heavy concept fail. They didn't bend anything to their will. The Force just "stepped aside", offering not a single bit of resistance against them and then totally screwed them through Anakin. Apparently, everything that happened did happen according to the designs of the Force. Assuming something else would be stupid, given that - as you mentioned yourself - the Force is a godlike entity.

@The Ellimist
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nai's dismissing of the quotes is predicated on the idea that the out-of-universe publication date matters to the point where a quote literally doesn't count if it describes something to which new information was added (even if the new information doesn't contradict the old). This sort of breaks suspension of disbelief and renders a continuous universe that we can argue from very difficult to form.

My dismissing of the quotes is based on the fact that we are arguing two entirely different universes here: the Legends universe and the (Disney) Canon universe. Utilizing sources from the latter to try and argue against characters from the former is simply faulty reasoning. When a source just examines the "movie universe", there isn't much of a discussion about who is the most powerful Sith, since there is just Sidious and his apprentices. But using a quote that describes that status and then attempting to transfer that quote into the Legends universe is just illogical, because that heavily alters the meaning of the quote (from "Sidious is the most powerful movie Sith" to "Sidious is the most powerful Sith" in ways that were clearly never intended.

@Sinious
Originally posted by Sinious
I think in a situation like that, coming closest to the truth would be accepting that the authorial intention regarding the more recent information matters more than what the older source was meant to cover (assuming that one doesn't out-canon the other). So, take Plagueis vs novel Vitiate for an example: questioning whether Drew intended to keep Vitiate within "Plagueis > all the sith who came before" scaling or not rather than simply dismissing the older source + comparison analysis' of both characters' showings would reveal how powerful these characters are, imo. So, take Plagueis vs novel Vitiate for an example: questioning whether Drew intended to keep Vitiate within "Plagueis > all the sith who came before" scaling or not rather than simply dismissing the older source + comparison analysis' of both characters' showings would reveal how powerful these characters are, imo.


Baing anything on "authorial intention" is rather ridiculous.

First: We can just speculate about authorial intent, since that doesn't get served to us on a silver plate. Staying with your example: I don't know if Plagueis is really intended to be more powerful than Sith coming before him, or if the author's intention was just to illustrate the power boost the unbalancing of the Force gave Plagueis by making him think that is the case, which is what is done in the book.

Secondly: Arguing authorial intent becomes completely mood where it is left ambigious. Literature analysis usually limits itself to the text for a reason. If an author fails to make his intention clear within the text, it is simply considered not to be clear, as the definition of "auhtorial intent" just considers the intent of the author as they are encoded in his text. You don't ask the author and then "reinterprete" his work according to his means. This is even more true for SW sources, provided that each of them needed / needs to pass LFL, with some authors claiming that they were asked to edit wording in certain sentences sometimes. That means, that once they submit that stuff, their authority just ends there, with the exception of the part of it that is contained within the text they submitted.

Thirdly: If authorial intent was any real basis to make arguments here, certain debates would look much different. Kevin J. Anderson for example, revealed his ideas about Exar Kun once: The guy should be capable of challenging DE Sidious for the "most powerful Sith" title. James Luceno once revealed his idea, that TPM Plagueis would most likely defeat TPM Sidious in a fight, which is commonly ignored here. From there one could - with the doubts of a significant increase of power for Sidious between TPM and RotS presented here - question if Plagueis would also be capable of taking RotS Sidious down. One cane

So it really comes back to an examination of feats and believeable accolades. Which leaves Sidious with some nice displays of duelling abilities with a lightsaber and some nice TK / lightning. The same, essentially, being true for Plagueis. I wonder how that compares to versatility of Revan and the sheer raw power and knowledge that Vitiate has amassed during his reign.

Nai, I will respond tomorrow.

Whoever thinks Revan > Plagueis (or that Team 2 loses for whatever reason) is just fanboiing.

Sidious or Plagueis solo.

Good stuff.

Thanks.

A good argument, Az.

Sidious as of RotS could bypass even Yoda's attempts to conceal his emotions, whereas he was able to conceal his Force sensitivity from Yoda.

Also, in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, the mere onset of Sidious' hologram incited storms on planets across the breadth of the galaxy. Vitiate has absolutely nothing to compare.

Vishitiate taking Ls every which way.

Originally posted by SunRazer
A good argument, Az.

Thanks!

Nai cleaning up, tbh.

So we're back to Pre-Nanthema Vitiate dominating the minds of 8000 Sith lords, nice. Don't know if this puts him above Sheev, considering his mind-wipe feat of the lusankya, but still very impressive none the less. It makes sense that the historians wouldn't detail the utter domination against the wills of 8000 individuals.

That's Nyriss' claim, which isn't verified. According to Nyriss, there were only two hundred Sith Lords on Nathema, IIRC, nowhere near the 8000 suggested by the TOR: Encyclopedia.

Either pick Nyriss' account and take it to be flawed, or refer to the Encyclopedia, but not both. You can't have two bites of the cherry.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's Nyriss' claim, which isn't verified. According to Nyriss, there were only two hundred Sith Lords on Nathema, IIRC, nowhere near the 8000 suggested by the TOR: Encyclopedia.

Either pick Nyriss' account and take it to be flawed, or refer to the Encyclopedia, but not both. You can't have two bites of the cherry.

Shit son. You got a quote?

Heh, she actually says one hundred:

And also admits her retelling is circumspect:
Yeah still going with the SWTORE.

Nai, I'll respond sometime in the near future.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's Nyriss' claim, which isn't verified.


It isn't verified? So you are assuming that, somehow, Scourge and virtually every other character in the "Revan"-novel has never heared about Nathema by accident? This when, essentially, the Sith that "gave their life" there should be the heroes of the Sith Empire, given they "saved" it from destruction? That doesn't make much sense.



Actually, she just mentions a number once, when describing the thoughts of those Sith:

"Some refused to answer his call. But many more came. After all, what could one man do against a hundred Sith Lords?" - Darth Nyriss, SW:ToR - Revan, Chapter 15.

This seems more like a figure of speech than a actual count, provided that even hundred Sith Lords wouldn't have arrived on the planet at the same time. Those guys, after all, don't thrust eachother.

And even then, it would still mean that Vitiate dominated the minds of at least 100 Sith Lords at the same time, while preparing the ritual to drain the entire planet. Because we are still dealing with the fact that Sith aren't exactly known to be selfless creatures that would sacrifice themselves for the "greater good" of the Empire. A point that, as of yet, nobody has cared to take into consideration.



What a great way of handling "historical" sources. Usually, one would read them and then try to destill the truth out of them with some critical thinking. I'm rather certain that the number of 8,000 Sith Lords is exeggerated, given the structure of the Sith Empire as we can see in the "Golden Age of the Sith" / "Fall of the Sith Empire" comics. If I remember correctly, there were sources numbering the "Sith Lords" closer to "dozens" than "hundreds", provided that each of them ruled at least one planet, with the Ancient Sith Empire controlling just a few hundred worlds.

The 8,000 number appears to be construed from the "present" perspective of the SW universe in SW:ToR, where you have 10,000 Jedi Knights which should be equally numbered with the Sith forces. That, of course, would support my idea that the representation of the story in the SWTORE is following Vitiate's cover-up-story rather than telling the truth.

Which would suprise nobody that actually cared to read the author's note at the beginning of the book:

"Written entirely in-universe, this book uncovers secrets only hinted at in the game, divulges never-before-revealed traits and histories of major characters, and details the high-flying adventures and damatic stories that play out during the conflict between the Republic and the Empire." - Ian Ryan: "Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia", p. 6.

D'uh.
So. Essentially, you're trusting a random storyteller (in-universe source for the SWTORE) more than Darth Nyriss. Is that because that random storyteller is even 300 years farther away from the event in question, or because he serves a whitewashed version of the tale that, while entirely illogical (see above) suits your opinion better. One can only marvel your (and Beniboyblings) thoughts here.

Darth Nyriss is the random storyteller here lmao, the SWTORE is written by the standard omniscient "historian".

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Darth Nyriss is the random storyteller here lmao, the SWTORE is written by the standard omniscient "historian".

1)
What part of "in-universe" was it you didn't understand exactly?

2)
There is no "true omniscient" storyteller in SW literature.

3)
Is that the same "omniscient historian" who can't explain the darkness of the Nightmare Lands on Voss and hence discribes it as "mysterious force"(see p.337)?

The same "omniscient" historian, who writes sentences like:
"Recent reports, however, suggest that the Empire may have found the Dread Masters and is seeking a way to free them." (p.149)

Emphasis mine.
Yeah. "Omniscient". Lmao.

@Nai - The novel outright states that Scourge had never heard of the story before, and that few have. The idea is that it was kept secret from nearly everyone.

Regardless, for all of your ranting, you failed to prove that Nyriss is a more accurate or reliable source than the TOR Encyclopedia.

Also, yes, there are omniscient storytellers - TCSWE's preface states that it's told from the perspective of an omniscient committee of historians.

Even if we consider Valkorion close enough to Sidious, or (LMAO) slightly above him, Revan is significantly inferior to Yoda.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Nai - The novel outright states that Scourge had never heard of the story before, and that few have. The idea is that it was kept secret from nearly everyone.


Thanks for dodging the point entirely.
Why would one cover up a story where 8,000 Sith Lords unite their power and sacrifice their lives for the good of the Sith Empire, leaving Vitiate as some sort of "saviour" character, who convinced them to do so and is now left with their power to command. Qui bono?
Releasing that story would make those Sith instant heroes, with Vitiate emerging as the pretty much untouchable ruler of the Sith, who managed to do the impossible (making Sith Lords work together and sacrificing themselves for a greater good). The story wasn't told, because it stinks, as any critical reader would instantly notice. So, maybe I'm merely adressing the wrong person.



You mean much as opposition has failed to "prove" that the Encyclopedia is more reliable than Nyriss? This is a matter of interpretation and belief. I've told mine and gave reasons for it, attempting to create a synthesis from both sources. Wether you find my ideas and reasons convincing or not is, frankly, not my problem. Neither is your idea of "literature analysis", which appears to be picking the source that fits your opinion best and stick with it. There might be some people that view that as confirmation bias, but who cares?

Not that it even matters. Either Vitiate can mind dominate 100+ Sith Lords at the same time, while preparing a complex ritual, suggesting that he can do the same to pretty much anybody else. Or he merely convinced them. In both instances, he ends up with the combined raw power wielded by either a hundred or several thousand Sith Lords (and the entirety living force of Nathema's population, flora and fauna). How does anybody else compare to that exactly? So Vitiate either mindrapes or steamrolls his opponents. The result is pretty much the same at the end.



Yeah...

"Like the first encyclopedia, the in-fantasy conceit of this one is that it has been compiled by some omniscient committee of historians and scholars taking a look back over tens of thousands of years of galactic history. Since that history now extends to a time far before the events shown in George Lucas's six-movie saga, and to a time more than a century after, our vantage point is a period perhaps 150 years after the Battle of Yavin. Most entries, therefore, are in the past tense. In a galaxy where entire planets and billions of sentient beings can be-and frequently are-totally wiped out in a flash, nothing is safe and few things are certain." - The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia - Volume I, p. ix.

Emphasis mine.
Labeling that "omniscience" an "in-fantasy conceit" and closing the paragraph with "few things are certain" somehow doesn't torpede the idea, that we're dealing with a truely omniscient narrative authority here. Maybe you want to settle your long-lasting feud with reading comprehension, literature analysis and logic before you try to argue with me.