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Before you grab your pitchforks, Ancient Power said she's considering putting Nihilus as the most powerful sith, so I'm wondering what everyone thinks of this.

You can choose between versions of Palpatine if you think it affects the outcome.

It doesn't.

Nihilus feasts.

Nihilus' superior TK and drain gives him the win.

Nihilus doesn't have superior TK. Probably not Drain, either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nihilus doesn't have superior TK. Probably not Drain, either.

Palpatine doesn't have many good TK feats tbh. And the one's he does have a strictly inferior to Nihilus', who may have the best TK feats of anyone.

And lol, Palps drain is far inferior to Nihilus'. Which Sheev can't deal with and gets him killed. Are you thinking of Byss?

Palpatine's ability to obliterate the Imperial Palace and bury the Lusankya are indeed beyond Nihilus' resurrection of the Ravager and the surrounding fleet. Beyond a feats-only approach, Sidious is factually more powerful than Nihilus and hardly inept with telekinesis. He's better than Nihilus.

And yes, I am thinking of Byss. Nihilus drained a million Miraluka and less than a hundred Jedi. Palpatine drained about twenty billion beings on Byss. Sure, it wasn't instant death, but he was constantly siphoning off them, and it was more or less a permanent thing, requiring hardly a conscious effort on his part throughout his life as the Emperor. That cancels out.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine's ability to obliterate the Imperial Palace and bury the Lusankya are indeed beyond Nihilus' resurrection of the Ravager and the surrounding fleet. Beyond a feats-only approach, Sidious is factually more powerful than Nihilus and hardly inept with telekinesis. He's better than Nihilus.

And yes, I am thinking of Byss. Nihilus drained a million Miraluka and less than a hundred Jedi. Palpatine drained about twenty billion beings on Byss. Sure, it wasn't instant death, but he was constantly siphoning off them, and it was more or less a permanent thing, requiring hardly a conscious effort on his part throughout his life as the Emperor. That cancels out.

Not only is that an exaggeration of what he says, but it's only his supposition and megalomaniac thoughts. Not solid enough to be counted as a feat. The other one isn't a TK feat. And ABC logic doesn't work, even if Palps is more powerful, that isn't proof his every ability is superior. Try again.

Byss isn't combat-applicable. He did it in unknown conditions, in an unknown timeframe using an unknown method. Give him 20 years and whatever he needs and I'd agree that his drain is impressive (though still inferior). He may then be able to lightly sap Nihilus' life force while Nihilus psychically rapes him. As it is, it's an entirely useless thing to bring up. Give me an example of him using drain in a way that can actually be relevant to the thread please.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not only is that an exaggeration of what he says, but it's only his supposition and megalomaniac thoughts. Not solid enough to be counted as a feat.

Considering that he was pretty much restraining himself from actually doing it, yeah, I think it's legit. Cracking the foundations of the Imperial Palace is still much better than resurrecting the Ravager.

Dismissing it on arbitrary whims isn't sufficient when we know vastly inferior beings can easily call down huge buildings as well. Palpatine effortlessly called down mansion ceilings in 52 BBY, and his powers grew tenfold up to 32 BBY alone. This is DE Sidious. Not hard to imagine it at all. Not to mention Insider #88 claiming that the Emperor could crush buildings with the Force, with said buildings being described as "puny".

And it at least shifts the burden of proof on you to disprove such a notion. You can't just dismiss it because you don't like it.



It is.



It is when Sidious has shown greater mastery of telekinesis than Nihilus has. Try again.



Oh, and Nihilus' Katarr devastation is combat-applicable? Please. He had ample time to Drain Telos, yet he didn't. It's obviously not something he can do on a whim and something that requires preparation of a sort. Not to mention him feeding off power throughout the Ravager even as he does so. He couldn't enact Drain on the Exile until he incapacitated her. He couldn't enact Drain on Traya until he TK'd her. You expect me to believe that he would consume Sidious instantly? Hilarious.

Show me Nihilus psychically raping Sidious-tier characters. He couldn't even kill Traya, and Traya asserts that he hasn't reached the point where he can consume anything that lives. The burden of proof is on you to show me Nihilus instantly raping Sidious-tier characters. Anything else constitutes a no-limits fallacy on your part.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Considering that he was pretty much restraining himself from actually doing it, yeah, I think it's legit. Cracking the foundations of the Imperial Palace is still much better than resurrecting the Ravager.

Dismissing it on arbitrary whims isn't sufficient when we know vastly inferior beings can easily call down huge buildings as well. Palpatine effortlessly called down mansion ceilings in 52 BBY, and his powers grew tenfold up to 32 BBY alone. This is DE Sidious. Not hard to imagine it at all. Not to mention Insider #88 claiming that the Emperor could crush buildings with the Force, with said buildings being described as "puny".

And it at least shifts the burden of proof on you to disprove such a notion. You can't just dismiss it because you don't like it.

Doesn't prove anything. Dooku thought he could easily beat Anakin and Obi-Wan in RotS. Did he??? Sidious thought he couldn't possibly lose the Battle of Endor. How did that turn out??? A characters delusional thoughts mean nothing. And no, resurrecting the Ravager is a far better feat than shattering some foundations to an unknown extent. Not that Sidious, you know, actually did that at all.

The Imperial Palace is a thousand times larger than some shitty mansion ceiling, so you're a mite shy of the mark there. And trying to power scale off others is hilarious. Please, provide a clear A>B>C argument for this bit of supposition. It should be amusing to read. And is Sidious being capable of destroying some random buildings supposed to impress me? I guess I'll deign to admit that he's on par with a random TOR Jedi who got clowned by Malgus in that case.

I'm not dismissing anything, because literally nothing happened for me to dismiss. Perhaps you'd like to discuss Sidious' dreams next? I'm sure they're illuminating.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It is.

'fraid not. Even if one were to take the asinine position that he had to have done it himself, despite that that cannot betaken as such, it doesn't say that he did so with TK. He could have simply mind-controlled the workers who performed the feat themselves physically. This would align with the other quote which says that Imperial Engineer's buried it and thus eliminate any contradiction and fulfill the requirements of all the descriptions. Case closed.

http://statici.behindthevoiceactors.com/behindthevoiceactors/_img/shows/banner_93.jpg

Heck, he could have just manipulated the controls, lmao. There goes another "feat".

Originally posted by SunRazer
It is when Sidious has shown greater mastery of telekinesis than Nihilus has. Try again.

So you're moving this back onto feats, huh? Concession accepted I guess.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Oh, and Nihilus' Katarr devastation is combat-applicable? Please. He had ample time to Drain Telos, yet he didn't. It's obviously not something he can do on a whim and something that requires preparation of a sort. Not to mention him feeding off power throughout the Ravager even as he does so. He couldn't enact Drain on the Exile until he incapacitated her. He couldn't enact Drain on Traya until he TK'd her. You expect me to believe that he would consume Sidious instantly? Hilarious.

Show me Nihilus psychically raping Sidious-tier characters. He couldn't even kill Traya, and Traya asserts that he hasn't reached the point where he can consume anything that lives. The burden of proof is on you to show me Nihilus instantly raping Sidious-tier characters.

Please. Traya already proved that you can use it in combat at a moments notice. Nihilus only needs to lift his hand to do it, as with any normal attack, just like she did. The technique is simple enough to be performed unconsciously if need be. There's no requirement for the targets to be incapacitated. There's no evidence that he couldn't do it in the situations you mentioned, don't try to bullshit me. Hell, Unseen, Unheard says that he drained Katarr merely by speaking, indicating the ease at which it was performed. He didn't immediately drain Telos because he was confused about where the Jedi were.

He destroyed an entire planet of force sensitives and nearly a hundred Jedi. Sidious' resistance feats (which he, uh, doesn't have) don't surpass that showing. The burden is on you to prove that he can resist the attack, despite having no feats suggesting he can do so and the attack being blatantly stated to have no defense.

Darth Sidious is stated by multiple sources to be more powerful than Nihilus, and nothing contradicts this, so he wins yeah.

'Crushing' Citadel Station completely defecates on the Lusankya feat.

His claimed ability to destroy Citadel Station through unknown means does nothing of the sort. I'm not even sure it should be considered a feat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Doesn't prove anything. Dooku thought he could easily beat Anakin and Obi-Wan in RotS. Did he??? Sidious thought he couldn't possibly lose the Battle of Endor. How did that turn out??? A characters delusional thoughts mean nothing. And no, resurrecting the Ravager is a far better feat than shattering some foundations to an unknown extent. Not that Sidious, you know, actually did that at all.

You'd be right if these were delusional thoughts. But Sidious was stopping himself from doing it. He obviously could.



Random PT Jedi can bench press Star Destroyers



And yet you're willing to take Colonel Tobin's statements at face value. Perhaps you'd like to discuss the double standards here next?



You didn't close a case because you put up a bunch of unsupported hypotheses.

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Concession to what? I'm playing both feats and accolades since both are in favor of Palpatine's. There's no avenue for Nihilus.



By striking first against the Council after talking for a period of time?



The attack can be performed subconsciously - but not at that level.



That's an appeal to ignorance.

Nihilus has no reason to incapacitate anyone if he could just Drain them instantly. He doesn't have to worry about their story or anything. If he could, he'd just Drain them to death instantly.



That was actually Visas' perspective, and given that she was basically brainwashed by Nihilus, I'm in doubt of that. Especially since TCSWE claims that he only drained worlds that he "blasted into ruin", and he wasn't able to drain Telos since he never blasted it into ruin. So it seems that he needs to do that first.



He doesn't need to know where they are, lol. He can just wipe everything on the planet by speaking, if you're taking Unseen, Unheard literally. And he didn't.



Surpass the resistance of unsuspecting and thus defenseless Jedi and Miraluka? I don't know, my pinky might be able to do that.



That there's no defense doesn't mean that it instantly kills anything, or that it can't be resisted. Even Visas Marr was able to resist it to a degree. I think one can hypothesize that a more powerful being could resist it as well, similar to the way Exar Kun resisted Odan-Urr's Sever Force, simply because the power requires the severing of Force connections to begin with, and as per my example of Kun and Odan-Urr, that isn't possible against stronger beings (certainly not against much stronger beings). Also, Kreia's statements aren't gospel. I take it, but it's not incontrovertible - she isn't omniscient.

After all, according to her, Nihilus hasn't reached the stage where he can consume anything that lives, which you failed to address.

Originally posted by AncientPower
'Crushing' Citadel Station completely defecates on the Lusankya feat.



Where is it stated that he could do that, if you don't mind me asking?

Tobin says it, IIRC.

It's Visas that blathers about it, but its just an extension of what she saw happen on Katarr and presumably other worlds, and only though making assumptions can we conclude on the extent or means of the destruction.

You mean, just like you're making assumptions about the Lusankya "feat"?

You mean reaching logical rather than retarded and unsupported conclusions?

My bad, I forgot that you were against the Lusankya feat. I meant to direct that at Sunrazer and co.

But no, the TK argument is just as much of an unsupported assumption as anything.

Actually, I found Temp's closing argument more convincing.

On the other hand, there are innumerable ways in which Nihilus could have gone about destroying Citadel Station. But the fact is Visas is just basing her claim over what she (and we) have already witnessed.

Or in other words she is offering no knew information on his capabilities.

Palpatine>Ancient Sith>Nihilus.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You'd be right if these were delusional thoughts. But Sidious was stopping himself from doing it. He obviously could.

Dooku was "stopping" himself from killing Anakin as well. People exaggerate themselves in their heads all the time, even in the case where they're supposedly holding themselves back from something. That he thought he could do it doesn't change anything about what I said.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Random PT Jedi can bench press Star Destroyers

Your ravings please me. I've broken you.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And yet you're willing to take Colonel Tobin's statements at face value. Perhaps you'd like to discuss the double standards here next?

Tobin's statements are supported by the loading screen. Plus he's discussing things that have actually happened instead of the imaginings of a maniac with a god complex.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You didn't close a case because you put up a bunch of unsupported hypotheses.

The TK argument is just as unsupported. The basis of the argument is that the only explanation for the quote is that he must have used TK. To refute this argument all I need to do is introduce alternatives, and therefore make it impossible to determine what he did or did not do. Therefore your argument becomes invalid. I've won. Case the **** closed.

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Originally posted by SunRazer
Concession to what? I'm playing both feats and accolades since both are in favor of Palpatine's. There's no avenue for Nihilus.

Instead of attempting to argue power scaling you switched over to feats, in response to my suggestion that we do so. I ****ing win again.

Originally posted by SunRazer
By striking first against the Council after talking for a period of time?

What do you mean striking first? She attacked them with TK before hand and then they were ready for a fight. But yes.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The attack can be performed subconsciously - but not at that level.

It speaks to the level of ease the attack has.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's an appeal to ignorance.

Nihilus has no reason to incapacitate anyone if he could just Drain them instantly. He doesn't have to worry about their story or anything. If he could, he'd just Drain them to death instantly.

In that you're making statements completely ignorant of the facts, yes. You're the one speculating without any evidence. You're the one appealing to ignorance by arguing that because he did it in those situations, he can't do it in any other. It's an absurdity. The attack is shown to be quick and easy. There's no evidence otherwise.

His apprentice was there and he clearly wanted to talk to them given that he walked up to do so.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That was actually Visas' perspective, and given that she was basically brainwashed by Nihilus, I'm in doubt of that. Especially since TCSWE claims that he only drained worlds that he "blasted into ruin", and he wasn't able to drain Telos since he never blasted it into ruin. So it seems that he needs to do that first.



You're not serious are you?

Originally posted by SunRazer
He doesn't need to know where they are, lol. He can just wipe everything on the planet by speaking, if you're taking Unseen, Unheard literally. And he didn't.

Don't pretend to be stupider than you are, it's unbecoming. He was informed there were Jedi on the planet and when he couldn't sense them he was confused. These are all standard lines when attempting to lowball Nihilus and it's incredibly boring to have to destroy them again. Honestly, I thought you were better than this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Surpass the resistance of unsuspecting and thus defenseless Jedi and Miraluka? I don't know, my pinky might be able to do that.

Unseen, Unheard shows them reacting to it. Do your research next time. Plus Jedi senses.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That there's no defense doesn't mean that it instantly kills anything, or that it can't be resisted. Even Visas Marr was able to resist it to a degree. I think one can hypothesize that a more powerful being could resist it as well, similar to the way Exar Kun resisted Odan-Urr's Sever Force, simply because the power requires the severing of Force connections to begin with, and as per my example of Kun and Odan-Urr, that isn't possible against stronger beings (certainly not against much stronger beings). Also, Kreia's statements aren't gospel. I take it, but it's not incontrovertible - she isn't omniscient.

After all, according to her, Nihilus hasn't reached the stage where he can consume anything that lives, which you failed to address.

Visas didn't resist shit. And I don't care what you hypothesize, it's just unsupported speculation. Kreia may not be omniscient, but it doesn't matter. She's the best information we have on the topic. There's no evidence indicating a defense does exist, so trying to say that there might be is just a paltry guess on your part.

Perhaps because it doesn't mean anything. It isn't the smoking gun you're deluding yourself into thinking that it is. This response was way worse than I expected from you.

I'll respond tomorrow.

You'll try.

You're getting desperate.

I've already accomplished what I wanted in this thread.

Sidious, easily in that.

So we have Nihilus squaring off against a guy who is not only consistently touted as his superior, but who also possesses a tremendous advantage with respect to feats and accolades, in either combative or ritualistic spheres.

mmm

Nihilus can maybe beat 52BBY Sidious.

Unlikely.

What's your case?

He's Sidious so he's automatically the best, duh.

Well, duh. Not this Sidious, though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Actually, I found Temp's closing argument more convincing.

gewd

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku was "stopping" himself from killing Anakin as well. People exaggerate themselves in their heads all the time, even in the case where they're supposedly holding themselves back from something. That he thought he could do it doesn't change anything about what I said.

Dooku stopped himself from killing Anakin in the sense that he decided to withhold fighting skill because he was confident of his chances. He wasn't actively preventing himself from tearing something apart. They're not comparable examples.



I like the things you tell yourself to cushion the crushing impact of the realization that you've lost.



Not all of them. And no, isn't he the one who discusses Nihilus' ability to destroy everything?



It's TK or an equivalent power that allows him to cause the burying in of itself.

Besides, if Sidious was demonstrating his powers, do you seriously think that TK'ing the controls would be a sufficient display? The actual bringing down of the ship through sheer power would be a more considerable display of power than something that just about any of his adepts, with sufficient concentration, can do.



I didn't "switch over". I showed you that I could adopt either stance and still win, since Sidious is his better either way.

Heck, I don't even need to prove that Sidious' master of telekinesis supersedes Nihilus', only that Sidious is a master of telekinesis to begin with. With that, his supremacy quotes instantly put him over Nihilus.

Currently, your case hinges on Sidious being inept with telekinesis. Start to back it up.



She attacked them with Drain as they ran towards her, and after a monologue during which she may well have gathered her powers.



Actually, you've just reminded me that I can draw a comparison between their passive usages of Force Drain. Nihilus' passive drain was enough to slowly leech life from the bridge's crew, which at most is about two dozen people, and they were in the same room as him. Sidious' passive drain affected the majority of nearly twenty billion beings, and he spent quite a lot of his time away from Byss, which would mean that he was doing this from across the galaxy.

Once again, the comparison is in Sidious' favor, and by a landslide.



Stating that "it's right because nothing proves that it's wrong" is the textbook definition of an appeal to ignorance. You're defaulting on that because you can't prove it, evidently.

The attack was shown to be quick and easy after Nihilus had the chance to gather power, yeah. You haven't given me an instance of them Draining any non-fodder characters without gathering power first.



Nihilus had nothing to say to Traya (or Mandalore), yet he elected to incapacitate them first.



I am. It's a consistent theme that Nihilus can't just come up to a planet, wave his arm, and kill all life instantly. TCSWE and the Battle of Telos IV in KotOR II show that.



Nihilus doesn't discriminate. Even if there were no Jedi, he would've fed off the planet to sustain himself for a time, as Visas suggested. So why didn't he do that? As I said, he doesn't discriminate, he only needs to feed his hunger. Even if they weren't there, he wasn't going to waste his energy traveling to Telos for nothing. He would've fed to sustain himself.



It shows Visas reacting. The only reaction was to the moment of death itself. As for Jedi senses, based on what? Atris was the only one who foresaw the attack. The comic only states that the Miraluka felt Nihilus when the latter struck, not as he approached.

Anyways, I'm retracting my point about the defenselessness, because it's not necessary and I don't want to waste my time on this.



Yet she was the only one who withstood his Drain?



I didn't say that a defense exists. I said that a defense not existing doesn't preclude the possibility of being able to resist the attack through sheer power disparity, or other means.



Because it proves that there are beings beyond Nihilus' scope of ability to consume life? And Sidious, as Nihilus' factual superior, would logically fit into such a group?

I don't care what you expect of me. I don't live for your expectations.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Besides, if Sidious was demonstrating his powers, do you seriously think that TK'ing the controls would be a sufficient display? The actual bringing down of the ship through sheer power would be a more considerable display of power than something that just about any of his adepts, with sufficient concentration, can do. I would just point out that according to Starships of the Galaxy the SSD was wrapped up in girders and machinery, presumably making the function of its standard engines infeasible. So yeah, it would have had to be levitated in somehow.