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Doesn't get blitzed, but still gets stomped.

Relative close. About an half tier, or a bit less, behind him.

Lmao.

The fight would have ended in three strikes had Caedus not pulled himself to a Tendrill rack with TK. Note: this an "amped" Caedus, but it just goes to show how the fight would have ended had Caedus not had an anchor to pull himself to, or if the battle was just pure sabers and martial combat.

Tbf, that's assuming that the rack was Caedus's only option, and not just the preferable one to blocking.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The fight would have ended in three strikes had Caedus not pulled himself to a Tendrill rack with TK. Note: this an "amped" Caedus, but it just goes to show how the fight would have ended had Caedus not had an anchor to pull himself to, or if the battle was just pure sabers and martial combat.

About the gap between Yoda and Dooku.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tbf, that's assuming that the rack was Caedus's only option, and not just the preferable one to blocking.

Originally posted by Nephthys
About the gap between Yoda and Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
About the gap between Yoda and Dooku. So about equals then.

He isn't on Luke's plane of existence.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tbf, that's assuming that the rack was Caedus's only option, and not just the preferable one to blocking.

Then you might want to ask yourself why Caedus chooses to disengage in a contest of pure lightsabers and what would happen if he continued to battle Luke in martial combat without clinging to an anchor to regain himself - the most parsimonious answer is that after a weak attempt to slash Luke's thighs, the latter having parried his blade for an opening, he'd get impaled. Caedus survives because he clung to an anchor, and as far as pure combat is concerned, Luke did pretty much everything but kill Caedus in what would have been a very brief fight. The Verdict - A wider gap then Maul and ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Relative close. About an half tier, or a bit less, behind him.

Closer than Vader.

Caedus is Windu tier in sabers imo, a step down from the top tiers like Yoda, Sidious, Luke. He can hold his own, but he loses every time.

Originally posted by MythLord
Closer than Vader.
Yiz.

Originally posted by Trocity
Caedus is Windu tier in sabers imo, a step down from the top tiers like Yoda, Sidious, Luke. He can hold his own, but he loses every time.

Yeah the gap is pretty noticeable tbh.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Then you might want to ask yourself why Caedus chooses to disengage in a contest of pure lightsabers

Because Luke caught him flat footed and was outmatching him?



So he can extend his hand out and pull his entire body out of the way, but he can rotate his wrists a little bit to parry Luke's diagonal slash, because apparently he couldn't figure to be able to recover to guard from being parried?



Then why doesn't Luke just kill him in another three slashes when he engages him again. It's almost as if Luke's initial advantage wasn't constant throughout the fight. mmm

Not.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Because Luke caught him flat footed and was outmatching him?


So it's a concession?



Ellimist, what do you think a flimsy wrist rotation will do when Luke's blade is only just missing Jacen's body? Are you deliberately being obtuse, or are you ignorant of basic fencing principals? Caedus has to knock the blade out of the way to prevent the stab hitting him; which he can not do in his current state. Do you want to know why? As usual, the answer can be found in the text.



If that isn't clear enough to you, Caedus is simply not in the position; or perhaps lacks the strength, to parry Luke's away blade from his chest. Why do you think that is? Probably because he's on his knees, putting him in am unfavourable position by giving Luke the leverage advantage , explaining why the weak slash to his thigh was so easily knocked aside. In this case, it would be far easier to extend his hand out to remove himself from close quarters confinement , because the only resistance that would meet his arm is open air. Otherwise, Luke would have either; 1) killed him 2) punctured a lung with his lightsaber. A fitting end for someone who's so vastly inferior to Luke in terms of power.



Do you expect every event to occur exactly in the same manner if they fought for 10 rounds too? This is a just an example of statistical randomness. In any case, it's a rather valid comparison to show what would happen when you reduce the fighting to martial combat and lightsabers only, which is clearly reflected by Jacen's constant attempts to escape a confined fight with Luke. And while it is true that Luke can simply ragdoll Jacen at any time of his choosing, Jacen looses various crutches that helped him survive what would have been a very brief fight against his Uncle.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So it's a concession?


No? The question is whether Luke was about to three-shot him, not whether he was winning.



Have you watched any lightsaber duel ever? Jedi/Sith effectively have obscenely unrealistic amounts of wrist strength. But you're still arguing that bringing his blade to guard position wasn't plausible in the timeframe, but extend his arm and pulling his entire body away from Luke's reach was. What, so using the Force to move his arm a few radians is harder than jerking his entire body away?



That's a nice series of assertions, but I'm going to guess that Caedus would not have deliberately thrown out a "weak" attack if it would have left him open. You know, if he were to leave himself open, it would either be a) he was gambling with a very strong attack or b) Luke opened his guard, but neither happen in this case. So your argument is predicated on the notion that Caedus was being a moron and making a rookie mistake, despite being considered the second most gifted duelist in the galaxy.



You walked right into it. If it's a matter of statistical randomness, while you are picking out one data point that evidently isn't very stable anyway?



Yes, we know that Jacen is inferior to Luke; that doesn't support your claim that Luke is above him to the same extent that Palpatine is above Maul. Maul would not have been able to crack Palpatine's ribs and seriously injure him to the point of putting him in a bacta tank for a week just because Palpatine started the fight with a slightly bad knee.



So why didn't Luke just ragdoll Jacen when he thought he was going to Ben to try to kill him?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No? The question is whether Luke was about to three-shot him, not whether he was winning.

Then you might want to ask yourself why the arguing has devolved into a case of proving the bare minimum. Setting the bar at such a low standard, immediately ridding any preconceived Caedus-notion insisting he's close to, or anywhere near Luke's level. Wether he three-shots or four-shots his nephew, the disparity is enough to hand-wave the long dead presumption that still rears its exasperated head. The reality is that Jacen's entire performance is owed as result of a well aimed kidney shot. Luke's rather stupid decision to strike out at the organ that consummates the most pain but doesn't hinder any of his fighting functions, unlike; for example, the strike luke was about to make against his chest (lungs) gives Jacen a crutch to amp himself with. Whether it be continual aid, or just something boosting the moments leading up to Luke's killing strike, Luke would have won the combat very quickly against a boosted Jacen.



Sure, the injury logically would have affected Caedus negatively. Classically, kidney strikes in martial arts are meant to cause so much pain that the combatant would be in too much agony to fight back. However, there are a few extra rules to consider. It's explicitly noted that Caedus not only recovered from the injury instantly, but fed off of it to make himself stronger and faster. This is further indicated by him "simply completing his pivot and landing a rib-crunching roundhouse". Implying that said rib crushing roundhouse, is result of relishing the kidney injury. That is of course, not forgetting that Luke goes into the fight with barely healed ribs in the first place.



Jacen's Force assisted wrist strength might help him if his opponent were a stationary steel pole, but the person he's fighting has even greater obscenely unrealistic amounts of wrist and arm strength empowered by a mystical energy field, whilst in an advantageous position. Can Solo generate enough force with his wrists to overpower the average weightlifter? Sure. Can he generate the momentum required knock away Grandmaster Luke's blade slashing through ribs and lungs whilst on his knees? Nope. Forgetting that thee text makes it clear the advantage is not on his side.



So what are Jacen's options?

1- He can't redirect the momentum of Luke's blade, as his footwork is impaired by being on his knees, which is a basic sword fighting principal for battling someone stronger

2 - Likewise, being on his knees that makes it impossible to strafe out the way of luke's slash too.

3- He could attempt to make another weak slash at his uncles thighs before the blade pierces his chest, but in any case, Luke is already within Jacen's guard and will certainly get there faster.

4 - He could maybe use Trakata, the art of deactivating the lightsaber to reignite it in the direction of his opponent. But Jacen might not even be familiar with that unconventional tactic. More importantly, the superhumanly fast Luke can probably still slash/stab Jacen's chest faster than the blade emitter deactivates and reignites again, as someone who can potentially redirect thousands of highly advanced ballistics fired from space aged weaponry.

5 - If he attempts to duck the blade, Luke's lightsaber will not hit Jacen's chest, but rather split his head in two

6 - If he attempts to arch his back to avoid luke's blade, in a similar fashion to Neo from the matrix's an bullet-timing, his vertebrate will not offer the flexibility to avoid the blade completely and he will still receive a punctured lung. Unless of course, he uses the Force to snap his spinal cord in two.

As far as combat is concerned, Jacen doesn't have any options. He is essentially dead to rights in this position, with nothing he can do with his motor-functions to prevent Luke's blade hitting his chest. So instead of using any of his muscles, he gets the Force to do the movement for him, and as a last resort. Yet for someone reason, you think that restricting the use of Telekinesis helps Jacen's chances against his uncle. Apparently for no reason.



Yes, there is nothing Jacen can do with his beadwork to prevent his death here. as explained above. But on this point, how do you know that Jacen fully extended his arm before he started moving out of Luke's blade range ? In any case, the series of events depicted in the text suggests he slides backwards with the Force first, which only requires a thought on his part, and then uses his hand to guide himself to the object in the corner of the room. Enlightenment:



I think it's now time to accept that Jacen would have been killed had he not used the Force to pull himself out of the way in a very brief fight, and this is considering it's an 'amplified' Jacen vs an injured Luke.



This literally means nothing. Being the second most gifted swordsman, in a fairly bare-bones order with very few people to compete with, doesn't mean he won't get out right decimated by the Primera. Jacen is also the second most powerful person active at that point in time too - except for perhaps Krayt, yet the only comparison we have to his superior in this regard, is him getting pinned to a chair with incalculable levels of effort.



I never asserted the gap was as wide as the differnce between Maul and
palpatine. I said it was bigger.



Maul does not have the ability to sense shatter-points like Jacen either. Which is probably the reason why Jacen knew to strike his ribs in the first instance. Not just that, but he could also use the same technique to pour force energy into the injuries weakest points. Yet you think that restricting Force abilities and confining the duel to combat only, helps Jacen's chances rather than hindering them.



In any case, when we look at both fights, I don't see any of the fairly lengthy duelling happening Palatine and Mauls fight, replicated in Jacen's fight with Luke. The latter is more a less a case of trying to escape direct combat as much as possible in a favourable environment while hurling objects at him. I don't see Sidious besting Maul - or even Savage Opress, within 3 lightsaber hits, as Luke did against his nephew. Similarly I don't see Maul, or even Ayla Secura getting the shit kicked out of them by Aurra Sing.



Ar you trying to suggest Luke can't dominate Caedus with TK, like he has done in two separate instances?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Then you might want to ask yourself why the arguing has devolved into a case of proving the bare minimum. Setting the bar at such a low standard, immediately ridding any preconceived Caedus-notion insisting he's close to, or anywhere near Luke's level. Wether he three-shots or four-shots his nephew, the disparity is enough to hand-wave the long dead presumption that still rears its exasperated head. The reality is that Jacen's entire performance is owed as result of a well aimed kidney shot. Luke's rather stupid decision to strike out at the organ that consummates the most pain but doesn't hinder any of his fighting functions, unlike; for example, the strike luke was about to make against his chest (lungs) gives Jacen a crutch to amp himself with. Whether it be continual aid, or just something boosting the moments leading up to Luke's killing strike, Luke would have won the combat very quickly against a boosted Jacen.


It's not just "three-shot" vs. "four-shot", since he didn't end up four-shotting him. But I wasn't even arguing that Caedus was close to Luke, hence why I used "tbf" or "to be fair". I just pointed out that you made a faulty assumption, which you seem to have little to say against.

So your transparent strawman aside, your only case for Luke being above Caedus to the same extent that Palpatine is above Maul is that Luke could "three-shot" Caedus...but then you go ahead and concede that it was not statistically typical (while ignoring the obvious factor of Luke having the surprise), and when you get called out on that, delete the chain from your reply. You then pretend that you didn't know Luke had to spend a week in a bacta tank after the fight, while Maul couldn't even remotely phase a pre-prime Sidious. Yeah, that gap is soooo much bigger.



Nope. We see Obi Wan fending off the far stronger Anakin's strikes with one hand. The Force doesn't work that way, just like how you need a substantial disparity or an opening to overpower someone with TK.

Heck, this is true in real life too, with the only difference being the decreased chance of wrist injury with the Force users - Caedus doesn't have to overpower Luke's strike, he just needs to yield little enough for it not to kill him.



Complete speculation. He can be at a disadvantage and still not be at such a disadvantage as to be incapable of preventing immediate death. You're welcome to show me the math that proves that the disadvantage you cited is substantial enough for instant death to occur.

Also, stop lecturing me, a former martial artist, on sword fighting, as if you didn't sound like an internet bluffer.



Complete speculation. He can be at a disadvantage and still not be at such a disadvantage as to be incapable of preventing immediate death. You're welcome to show me the math that proves that the disadvantage you cited is substantial enough for instant death to occur.



Nowhere does it say he's within Jacen's guard, it says that he parried his strike and then brought his lightsaber in a motion; we don't know where Jacen's blade was deflected too. Even then, Jacen will still have the advantage in not needing to move as far, because he just has to rotate his wrists and arm while Luke has to step into an actual strike.



Based on circularly defining Luke as substantially faster than Jacen, sure.



Depends on how much he ducks, and to what angle. You're trying to turn vague, very basic qualitative observations into quantitative ones, and it looks as pathetic as it sounds.



Another baseless speculation. We see Force users fall at terminal velocity onto airspeeders, but Caedus apparently can't arc his back?



Oh, and one last thing, were the vine not there, why couldn't he just grab onto the wall and push himself, or push himself off of Luke/anyone? The momentum transfer should still work the same, or even better since a wall would be more rigid.



That's the more straightforward interpretation of the text.

No, that's not what the text implies. You're making sh*t up again, as usual.



I also love how you're ignoring the fact that Luke was enraged and taking Jacen by surprise from behind, but who's me to point out obvious facts that you can't seem to wrap your head around?



Who cares? What matters is that it's not a plausible explanation to say that Caedus was deliberately making a rookie move that left himself open for no reason. Kas'im wouldn't make that mistake. Unless if he just f*cked up because he was unprepared or something, in which case the entire sequence can easily be attributed to circumstance, not a stable indicator of how a fight between the two would go.

Wait, damnit - given the previous trap you walked into, I should've just left it at pointing out that it was a rookie move that Caedus realistically would be above making, and then wait for you to admit that the opening stages of the fight were special due to the surprise factor.



When Sidious fought Maul and Savage together, he laughed and toyed with them the whole time.

When Luke seriously fought Caedus, he won but ended up in the bancta tank for a week after receiving several blows that severely injured him.

Only Ziggy would think that the gap between Luke and Caedus was larger.



Well, thanks for giving credit to Jacen. But that still ignores Maul's inability to land any hits on Sidious, not even trivial ones.

But go ahead and make a shatterpoint-trained Maul vs. Sidious with an injured knee and argue for the former putting the latter in a bacta tank.



There's no indication that Caedus used shatterpoint in that capacity, seeing as how his shatterpoint was literally one-shotting beskar armor, unless if you think Luke is superman or something.

And when we say "sabers", we usually don't preclude augmentation or melee, lol.



BTW, don't think I didn't miss your deletion of your biggest blunder in this discussion, admitting that the three-shot, if it even existed, was a statistical outlier. Which makes everything you've said irrelevant, as usual.



Answer the question instead of implicitly appealing to personal incredulity, please. There's a difference between hurting someone who's strapped in a starfighter and taking that same person by surprise, and ragdolling someone in a one vs. one fight. We know that there's a difference because this domination didn't happen, which you attribute to Luke "choosing" not to when his son was in danger and he was bloodlusted.

Great post, Ell, as always.
Do you have the quote for Jacen putting Luke in a bacta tank btw?